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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Eastern Catholic Church Liturgy
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Sorry,mousethief, for the mistake about the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.I meant the Synod and Union of Brest in 1595-6.The Wikipedia article on this gives a good account of the various political and religious problems of the time.
It is really much the same with the churches of the Western Reformation where, political,cultural,linguistic as well as religious difficulties led to the setting up of the national churches of the Reformation.Both sides (Catholic and Protestant)portrayed the Reformation as a purely religious movement and both sides claimed to be right and the others wrong. Nowadays most people are able to see the Western Reformation more objectively and I suppose it should be much the same in the East.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Isn't via media Latin for "the ones that dither"?
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(I feel a change of signature coming on!)
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thanks Pete C . I was (and remain) curious about the status of such as the Melkites when the anathemas were revoked. And sooner or later, relationships with the Copts and othere pre-Chalcedonians will have to be addressed - esp as many Coptic theologians are now attributing the break to a misudertanding/mistranslation. (I have used "break") as a non-judgmental and non-theological term.)
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Interestingly, none of the Ukrainian Catholics that I know have a problem with the adjective "uniate" even of they prefer Byzantine Catholic".
As for Melkites, a colleague of mine was baptised in that tradition and her husband is Antiochan Orthodox ( better than committing incest and marrying one of her Melkite first cousins as she put it} and despite all the talk she and her mob are firmly in the Pope's camp despite being part of the Melkite Eparchy
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
May I point out that no Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope (or the Holy Father). They are in communion with the Catholic Church (Roman Catholic Church) of which each pope is a temporary and temporal head.
I hope that this is not too much of a tangent, but I would disagree with your statement - at least at first thoughts.
They are in communion with the Bishop of Rome - a person - not an entity. It is the fact that they are in communion with that specific person that makes them in communion with the Catholic Church.
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ostiarius
Shipmate
# 13726
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Posted
Based on this construct, it seems to me that Communion is severed every time a Pope enters into his after-life. Would new Articles of Union be required with every change in Pontiff? Just wondering.
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Open a new window, open a new door...
Posts: 143 | From: west ridge/rosehill | Registered: May 2008
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ostiarius:
Based on this construct, it seems to me that Communion is severed every time a Pope enters into his after-life. Would new Articles of Union be required with every change in Pontiff? Just wondering.
No. Communion continues with each successor of Peter.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
May I point out that no Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope (or the Holy Father). They are in communion with the Catholic Church (Roman Catholic Church) of which each pope is a temporary and temporal head.
To be pedantic I think the modern view is that both Eastern and Western Rite Catholics are equally Catholic and in communion with the Holy See.
Cardinal Walter Kaspar referred to this as the Church 'breathing with both lungs'.
In any genuinely catholic Church, neither East (where it all started) nor West can be ignored or undervalued.
The Pope could come from either East or Western Rite: the office is not restricted to members of the Western Rite.
If an Eastern Rite bishop (say a Ukrainian) became Pope it would certainly be quite a sign to all Eastern Rite Catholic churches, many of which have grievously suffered under Communism or Islam.
A Ukrainian as Pope may not bring much joy in Moscow.
Eastern Rite churches, thanks to recent proactive papal intervention, are beginning to stand up for themselves in the Anglophone world and not allow themselves or their members to be sat on by local Latin Rite bishops or priests e.g. chrismated children being refused communion. The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference recently issued clear guidelines on this.
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Well...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Eastern Rite churches, thanks to recent proactive papal intervention, are beginning to stand up for themselves in the Anglophone world and not allow themselves or their members to be sat on by local Latin Rite bishops or priests e.g. chrismated children being refused communion. The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference recently issued clear guidelines on this.
I imagine this may potentially cause some awkwardness when Eastern Rite children communicate in Latin churches. 'Mummy, how come they can have communion and I can't?' Then this isn't the fault of the Eastern Rite people and, in my opinion, merely serves to highlight the mess of delaying communion by years, (and confirmation, for that matter).
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
It is no drama. I have been to plenty of first communions and confirmations where the (mostly) Maronite and Melkite kids turn up for a blessing. The Ukies are largely diluted these days; it was my generation that tended to worship apart but not now.
We are better socialised these days in multicultural Oz.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Eastern Rite churches, thanks to recent proactive papal intervention, are beginning to stand up for themselves in the Anglophone world and not allow themselves or their members to be sat on by local Latin Rite bishops or priests e.g. chrismated children being refused communion. The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference recently issued clear guidelines on this.
I imagine this may potentially cause some awkwardness when Eastern Rite children communicate in Latin churches. 'Mummy, how come they can have communion and I can't?' Then this isn't the fault of the Eastern Rite people and, in my opinion, merely serves to highlight the mess of delaying communion by years, (and confirmation, for that matter).
Agreed.
If I understand Multipara's post correctly to mean chrismated Eastern Rite Catholic kids do not receive communion at Latin Rite masses it only highlights the point.
How can one lot of children be full members of the church from birth and others only have 'probationary licences'?
I would wish we Anglicans chrismated at birth.
Another good thing about Eastern Rite Catholics is that they are now much more assertive in ordaining married men as priests in the West.
Yet Latin Rite spokespeople still confute the priesthood and celibacy.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
...noting that any in-depth discussion of non-liturgical differences such as Closure of Communion and Infant Baptism would be more suitable for Purgatory or DH rather than these hallowed halls...
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
*hostly alert probably not necessary*
No Sir P, I wasn't going anywhere near closed communion.
Chrismated kids generally don't seem to receive communion at a Western Rite Mass until their Western Rite peers do, more by convention than anything else. They all want to tog up on First communion Day, though!
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I agree with multipara's clarification; it is certainly the way I understood her original post.
And that practice is common in India, AFAICS. Once a young person receives first communion, he/she no longer sits with the boys/girls, but with the men/women.
[ 28. April 2010, 07:14: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Multipara, you may be interested in this quote from Dr Andrew Kania - an Australian Ukrainian Greek Catholic and currently Director of Religious Education at Aquinas College Perth on the ignorance the average Australian often has of the simplest piece of Eastern Liturgy, the making of the sign of the cross:
The year is 1977, the scene, a Catholic Boys School in Western Australia. A Year Six (11 years of age) class in Religious Education is coming to its close, as with another school day. To conclude the class, the teacher, a devout Latin Catholic asks her pupils to stand and say a final prayer. As the teacher initiates the sign of the cross, she stops the class and draws their attention to one of the boys, who in her words: “Has crossed himself the wrong way!” Bringing the child to the front she asks him to repeat his indiscretion. Seeing a chance to instruct the entire class further, the teacher poses the question: “Can any person in this class see what this silly boy is doing wrong?” To which 30 hands respond in answer. Grabbing the pupil by the right arm the teacher proceeds to correct the boy, who resists. Vigorous laughter ensues. Stating that she will not dismiss the class until the recalcitrant has shown to everyone that he has learnt his lesson the teacher forces the boy’s hand open (which had been positioned with three fingers joined together, representing the Holy Trinity in Byzantine formulae), and draws on him the sign of the cross – left shoulder first then to the right. The boy in this story became in time the author of the article before you, and the sad event took place nearly two hundred years after the first Eastern Christian, a Ukrainian, came to Australia on the First Fleet in 1788. (See: Clark1962, p. 94)
As an adult I was exposed to even more examples of the lack of catholic understanding of the Church by many Roman Rite Catholics.
Knowledge and tolerance are a two way thing.
Andrew's articles are on the Australian Catholic Ukrainian website.
http://www.catholicukes.org.au/tiki-index.php?page=Dr+Andrew+Kania%27s+Articles
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Well...
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Sir P, in my view (such as it is) Andrew K does have the inclination to beat the Ukie Catholic drum a bit too often for my liking; I've read more than a few of his articles in Catholica.com.au and his style irritates me not a little. For all the ill-educated (probably lay) RE teachers in WA who hadn't been told about the Orthodox way for making the sign of the Cross back in those benighted days (yes, 1977 ) there'd be plenty who would not have batted an eyelid.
just my 2 bob's worth,
m
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Fair enough, multipara.
I suspect there are Catholics like yourself (intelligent, well educated and cosmopolitan) and twits like the schoolteacher.
Alas, twits will always be with us.
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Well...
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Young fogey
Shipmate
# 5317
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Posted
Yes, the Byzantine/Greek Catholic and Orthodox liturgies are supposed to be alike and as otyetsfoma said, the tiny Russian Greek Catholic Church (now really small groups of convert non-Russians not in Russia) obeys that. Few other Greek Catholics do.
(The Russian Greek Catholics: 100 years ago some Russian intellectuals converted themselves to Rome so the Pope set up this church to try to convert the rest of the Russian Orthodox.)
Today the strategy is corporate reunion, bringing whole churches under Rome, so Rome doesn't use the Greek Catholics to snag individual conversions but it accepts them of course, quietly.
When you know the rite and the cultures you can tell which is which. Lots of Ukrainian Catholics for example have long disobeyed Rome and latinised themselves with both old (statues, devotions such as the rosary) and new things (modern English language; the Ruthenians, the Ukes' Slav cousins, seem headed in that direction).
It's hard to describe but a lot of their churches feel like modern but relatively conservative Roman Catholic ones but with a few different externals. Some feel like nice (IMO) old-fashioned RC churches.
As the story from Australia says there's been a lot of ignorance and thus pressure from the majority Roman Riters adding to the latinisation. It also caused two schisms in the US when heavy-handedness from the Irish bishops (getting Rome to ban ordaining married men) made some Eastern Slav immigrants go to the Russians; most Russian Orthodox there, like in The Deer Hunter, are their descendants and originally not from Russia.
The Greek Catholics weren't supposed to add the filioque but did and now some are taking it back out. (Interestingly the official Greek version of the Creed in the RCC doesn't have it.)
Yes, the word 'Uniate' is out in knowledgeable religious discussions but in 25 years of knowing these people, specifically Ukrainian Catholics, I'd say you can call them anything but Russian Orthodox.
The Soviets banning their church in their home, the territory of Galicia not the whole Ukraine, with only the Orthodox church legal, adds to that. The story of the underground Ukrainian Catholic Church in those years, resurfacing to everybody's surprise in the late 1980s, is moving and heroic.
I'd say only converts to Greek Catholicism (from the Roman Rite etc.) call themselves 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'. A vocal minority online deny RC defined doctrine yet are Greek Catholics. Again Rome agrees with the OicwRs liturgically but...
Eastern Catholics do have to sign onto all RC defined doctrine.
Of course the online Orthodoxen may say better than me but I'd say the Orthodox run on a smidgen of doctrine ('Creed, Jesus is true God and true man, Mother of God and icons, and we're done') but lots of customs. When they say they don't believe in purgatory or the Immaculate Conception they mean they have no defined doctrine on those subjects, yet they pray for the dead and call Mary all-pure (customs such as the service books).
The Ukrainian Catholics used to use Slavonic like the Russian Orthodox (but with a different accent) until about 30 years ago and now use Ukrainian and local languages such as English.
Ukrainian Catholicism: a few Russianisms like the Cyrillic alphabet, onion domes, icons and married priests to show you're not Polish but tons of Polishisms like clean-shaven priests and statues to show you're not Russian. And they're not Russian: they were part of Poland (who didn't treat them well) from the 1300s until Stalin annexed them to the USSR in WWII. The rest of the Ukraine is Russian.
Dual communion is in theory not possible because of the rival one-true-church claims of the Orthodox and RCC but among Arabs in Syria and Lebanon (the Greek Catholics are the Melkite Church) it's long been so among the laity.
The case of the Assyrian anaphora is interesting and I have no objection to the lack of words of institution: it's Christendom's oldest rite still in use and the intent is obviously Catholic.
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A conservative blog for peace
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Young fogey
Shipmate
# 5317
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Posted
The coming RC ordinariates for ex-Anglo-Catholics aren't really a parallel to the Eastern Catholics because the people in them won't be having Book of Common Prayer or Common Worship services but cultural variants of the Roman Rite, for example like Roman Rite use in parts of the Church of England now. Also, the Eastern Catholic churches have their own bishops and canon law.
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A conservative blog for peace
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Using English isn't a Latinism. Sts. Cyril and Methodius translated the liturgy into the language of the people they were evangelizing; they didn't make them learn Greek. Using antiquated or dead languages in the service isn't some wonderful thing. It's stupid. Using English in a congregation whose primary language is English has nothing to do with Rome. One of the early saints of Alaska called for the liturgy to be translated into English well before Vatican II (sorry, can't remember which saint).
You copycats!
[ 01. May 2010, 02:49: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Had to have been Innocent. I believe he also commanded Nicholas of Japan to learn Japanese and translate the liturgy into Japanese.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You mean the language that they actually speak. That's the one they should be allowed to worship in. We're not Pepys and Shakespeare. Sorry you don't like your own language. Kinda tough beans, huh?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
Of course the online Orthodoxen may say better than me but I'd say the Orthodox run on a smidgen of doctrine ('Creed, Jesus is true God and true man, Mother of God and icons, and we're done') but lots of customs. When they say they don't believe in purgatory or the Immaculate Conception they mean they have no defined doctrine on those subjects, yet they pray for the dead and call Mary all-pure (customs such as the service books).
Surely you must have realised as you were typing there was no way that was going to get past unchallenged.
I wouldn't agree that we get by on a smidgin of doctrine, indeed that we "get by" on anything. We have our doctrine which we believe to be true. Just as some of it doesn't feature in other traditions so is something they don't have a defined position on and it would never occur to them to do so. I suppose the same is true of us where certain Roman Catholic teachings are concerned. However, in some cases, the objection is not simply that we kick up a fuss because we don't have a defined position on the particular subject ourselves but rather because of one or both of the possibilities that a) we see no reason to define such a thing and b) we see that the Roman Catholic definition conflicts with other elements of the Faith. Here is my attempt at explaining the latter of your examples.
That's all.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Young fogey
Shipmate
# 5317
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Posted
But mousethief, as you probably know the longstanding custom throughout Eastern Christianity is like English-speakers using Coverdale, Cranmer and King James, an archaic form of the language. Greeks use medićval Greek, not modern Greek; Russians and, until rather recently, Ukrainian Catholics, Slavonic, not Russian. And many Orthodox have always liked liturgical English; the Jordanville prayer book is written in it and the Antiochians still print the Hapgood service book (Isabel Hapgood, an Episcopalian who translated the Russian services about 100 years ago).
Eastern Catholics in English sound ICEL-ified, that is, a bit Novus Ordo-ey but with slightly better translations as the rites weren't radically revised and then paraphrased in the 1960s like the Roman. (Pope Benedict's new English version drops the paraphrase for translation; that problem's solved in the Roman Rite.)
Yes, Michael, I expected online Orthodox to challenge what I wrote.
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A conservative blog for peace
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
But mousethief, as you probably know the longstanding custom throughout Eastern Christianity is like English-speakers using Coverdale, Cranmer and King James, an archaic form of the language. Greeks use medićval Greek, not modern Greek; Russians and, until rather recently, Ukrainian Catholics, Slavonic, not Russian. And many Orthodox have always liked liturgical English; the Jordanville prayer book is written in it and the Antiochians still print the Hapgood service book (Isabel Hapgood, an Episcopalian who translated the Russian services about 100 years ago).
All these things are bad. The gospel, and the services, should be in the language of the people. Dilettantes and Luddites shouldn't shove their dainty and selfish prejudices on the masses.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
Yes, Michael, I expected online Orthodox to challenge what I wrote.
Young Fogey, forgive me for asking but are you using online Orthodox in a particular way? Your repetition of it made me wonder. I only ask because it is reminiscent of a disparaging phrase I have encountered in the past but I realise that you may simply be referring to Orthodox people who happen to be online.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Young fogey
Shipmate
# 5317
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Posted
mousethief, you're entitled to your opinion.
Michael, one can read either meaning of online Orthodox but that doesn't mean you're one of the bad ones.
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A conservative blog for peace
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
mousethief, you're entitled to your opinion.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
Michael, one can read either meaning of online Orthodox but that doesn't mean you're one of the bad ones.
Thank you for responding.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Dial down the snark, eccolytes, and if you want to get personal take it to hell please.
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Some Orthodox use English for their liturgies do the Eastern Catholic versions of those Eastern Orthodox use English as well?
I cant quite understand the Holy Father's position in Eastern Catholic churches. Is he the top bishop - the Pope - as in the West, or is he a patriarch among others? If its the first one then shouldnt he sometimes offer the Eastern catholic liturgy?
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
If the diocese of Rome is a Roman rite diocese (and it is) then it is only right that the bishop should celebrate according to the Roman rite.
On important occasions at papal Masses there are Byzantine rite priests who will chant the Gospel in Greek.
The present pope tried to adapt the pallium to an earlier and more Byzantine form.In time it was found to be impractical (I think) and he has reverted to a more Latin style pallium,though still a little different from the normal pallium granted by the pope to major archbishops.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Eddy, the question about English has already been answered, on this page even.
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
*hostly alert probably not necessary*
No Sir P, I wasn't going anywhere near closed communion.
Chrismated kids generally don't seem to receive communion at a Western Rite Mass until their Western Rite peers do, more by convention than anything else. They all want to tog up on First communion Day, though!
m
If the parents are aware of their rights, they can complain to the bishop when this happens. In fact, Rome has published a letter about this very subject. Although most priests now days are better educated concerning the Eastern Catholic Churches, there are still a few who try to refuse Easter Catholic infants and children Communion, contrary to the law.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
If the diocese of Rome is a Roman rite diocese (and it is) then it is only right that the bishop should celebrate according to the Roman rite.
On important occasions at papal Masses there are Byzantine rite priests who will chant the Gospel in Greek.
The present pope tried to adapt the pallium to an earlier and more Byzantine form.In time it was found to be impractical (I think) and he has reverted to a more Latin style pallium,though still a little different from the normal pallium granted by the pope to major archbishops.
Are you saying the Pope should never celebrate anything but the Roman Rite, Forthview, of just when he is in Rome. I mean to say yes he is the Bishop of Rome but he is more than that as well he is the Pope. I think it would be nice if he had the imagination to celebrate in an Eastern Rite when say visiting one of their churches, after all he is there Pope.
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
teddybear, these parents aren't that precious.
m
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The pope has his position in the Universal Church by virtue of his office as bishop of Rome.
I wouldn't necessarily expect Byzantine rite bishops to celebrate in the Roman rite when in Rome and wouldn't expect the bishop of rome to celebrate in another rite.
What is important is the mutual recognition of the other rites as authentic expressions of the liturgy.
On a practical level I don't htink that a celebrant can just learn how to celebrate in another rite overnight.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
But don't Eastern and Western Rite priests/bishops sometimes concelebrate in each other's Rites? The very limited experience I have with such things would seem to indicate that the principal celebrant would be a priest/bishop of the Rite being celebrated. So the Pope could join in concelebrating an Eastern Rite or perhaps simply be present in choir?
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
I seem to recall a televised papal mass from Rome many years ago: at the gospel an eastern rite deacon (from Grottaferrata I guess) chanted the gospel in greek with all the byzantine extras -sophia orthoi etcetera, but the rite was roman.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
I seem to recall a televised papal mass from Rome many years ago: at the gospel an eastern rite deacon (from Grottaferrata I guess) chanted the gospel in greek with all the byzantine extras -sophia orthoi etcetera, but the rite was roman.
In recent times, it is customary to do this on Maundy Thursday, if I recall correctly. I know I've seen JP2 and Ben do this on TV.
The practice is quite a bit older.
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But don't Eastern and Western Rite priests/bishops sometimes concelebrate in each other's Rites? The very limited experience I have with such things would seem to indicate that the principal celebrant would be a priest/bishop of the Rite being celebrated. [/QB]
Yes...this happens quite often. At the ordination or installation of RC bishops, it is common for the Eastern Rite bishops of the local area to be present and concelebrating.
At St. Peter's Basilica, particularly in the last years of the JP2 pontificate, Cardinal Daoud was seated and concelebrated with the other cardinal-bishops (he being given that status as an Eastern patriarch-cardinal). Occasionally he would end up praying part of the Canon.
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Olaf
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Posted
See 6:20 here, the funeral Mass of John Paul 2, in which [Eastern Rite] Cardinal Sfeir leads the Communicantes.
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Eddy
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Liturgies need building to suit them and it seems to me that Eastern orthodox liturgies have different church space than Western ones. They are decorated different too and have different furniture.
So I wonder just how an Eastern Catholic liturgy fares in St Peters Rome. Then I wonder if the Eastern Catholic churches are different inside to their sister Eastern orthodox ones. Maybe they have a wider range of icons and saints.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
So I wonder just how an Eastern Catholic liturgy fares in St Peters Rome. Then I wonder if the Eastern Catholic churches are different inside to their sister Eastern orthodox ones. Maybe they have a wider range of icons and saints.
I've seen photos of some Eastern Catholic churches that have altars similar to Roman Catholic high altars ("wedding-cake" style) but perhaps with more and different items, and no ikonostasis between nave and sanctuary.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Liturgies need building to suit them and it seems to me that Eastern orthodox liturgies have different church space than Western ones. They are decorated different too and have different furniture.
So I wonder just how an Eastern Catholic liturgy fares in St Peters Rome. Then I wonder if the Eastern Catholic churches are different inside to their sister Eastern orthodox ones. Maybe they have a wider range of icons and saints.
Mass on Day 7 of the Novendiales was celebrated in St. Peter's by Cardinal Sfeir, in a west-facing manner. In appearance, it looked like an Ordinary Form mass, with the chairs in front of the altar, then removed for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
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Eddy
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I know that the Orthodox have a big thing about beards for their ministers. Is this the same in the Catholic Eastern churches as well?
Are there any elements of Western Catholic tradition - e.g. the hymn, that have crept into the eastern Catholic ways or do they try to keep themselves pure>
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Pancho
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# 13533
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I've seen photos of some Eastern Catholic churches that have altars similar to Roman Catholic high altars ("wedding-cake" style) but perhaps with more and different items, and no ikonostasis between nave and sanctuary.
I think a lot has to do with where it is in the world and local history. There were times and places where Eastern Catholics wanted to emphasise their Catholic identity more and so they often sought to resemble their Latin Rite brethren. Now there are times and places where Eastern Catholics want to empasize their native Eastern identity and so seek to strengthen the Eastern appearance of the their churches. I've seen pictures of Eastern Catholic churches that 50 or 60 years ago had those wedding-cake style altars and no iconostasis but nowadays have an iconostasis and whose churches are much more Eastern (specifically Byzantine) in style.
Then again, I've seen pictures of Syrian Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox churches that to me resemble traditional Latin Rite churches as the altars have gradines that rise up to a picture, almost in "wedding-cake" style.
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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Confused about the term Uniate. It is used all the time by the few Eastern Catholics with whom I'm in regular correspondence. That's how they refer to themselves - either that or "those of us in the Unia". Clearly the business of it seeing it as pejorative is not universal among Eastern Catholics.
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Originally posted by multipara:
Interestingly, none of the Ukrainian Catholics that I know have a problem with the adjective "uniate" even of they prefer Byzantine Catholic".
m
Michael Astley is in the U.K and multipara is in Australia. It's in the U.S. where "uniate" is a term not liked by some people because the history of Eastern Catholics in this country has sometimes been unhappy and led to tensions in neighborhoods and families. Don't be surprised if the term is used freely elsewhere, but also don't be surprised if you get a talking-to in the U.S.
I could have sworn Pope John Paul II celebrated or at least presided over a Divine Liturgy in Ukraine but maybe I'm imagining it? I definitely know that I've seen pictures of Bishop Sheen in Byzantine vestments and that he celebrated the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
There's an article on the role the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma is playing in Bishop Sheen's cause for sainthood here.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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mousethief
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It's primarily Orthodox of Russian heritage (or whose churches are of Russian heritage even if they're whitebread western Europeans) who wear beards. It was a big thing to wear beards for all men in Tsarist Russia. Making men shave off their beards was a big thing for Peter the Great, who wanted Russia to become France East. It was greatly resented.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know that the Orthodox have a big thing about beards for their ministers. Is this the same in the Catholic Eastern churches as well?
Are there any elements of Western Catholic tradition - e.g. the hymn, that have crept into the eastern Catholic ways or do they try to keep themselves pure>
The Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy that I attended last year (actually in a church under the authority of +Parma, mentioned in the previous post) had pews, and they also had a sermon right after the Gospel reading. I'm not sure if this is an unusual place or not for a sermon in an Eastern Rite liturgy, but for some reason I didn't expect one there. The pews were quite unexpected.
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