|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: The Nature of Hell
|
Unitarian1986
Shipmate
# 15908
|
Posted
I'm looking for some good discussion on what everyone thinks about what hell will be like. I know obviously no one knows but God but I am just interested in what you guys think.
[ 10. November 2014, 18:52: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
--------------------
"You have made us for Yourself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Thee." -St. Augustine
Posts: 63 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
One can only speculate, but I imagine there is a lot of soft jazz involved.
On a more serious note, it's hard to beat CS Lewis's version of hell in the Great Divorce. You can have anything you want- it just doesn't mean anything and can't bring you happiness.
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
|
Posted
To me, hell is simply a metaphor for not being remembered positively or honourably after you die.
That's scary enough as it is. Religions don't need to win their apologetics arguments by trying to make out that there's some kind of hell that's even worse than that, that you would not have otherwise known about. If religions do do this, then it suggests that there's something wrong with their theology.
Having said that, there's definitely a place in literature for the Apocalypse of John, Voluspa (from Poetic Edda) and Dante's Inferno. I think the problem with Revelation and Voluspa is that people home in on the verses about large-scale death and destruction, but fail to see those verses in the context of the whole book, and as a result they miss the metaphorical meanings.
To be fair, though, Revelation and Voluspa both use lots of symbolism, and it can be hard for a person who isn't generally well-read in mythological literature to make sense of Revelation or Voluspa on their first reading.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Why are wondering about the nature of hell?
Do you plan on going?
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Hell is total separation from God, his love, his presence.
In hell there is is nothing that is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy.
There is no love, joy or peace.
I do not believe in lakes of fire or burning sulphur. These things are symbols - but think what the reality would be that those symbols merely represent!
There is one more thing that characterises hell.
It is an endless, conscious experience.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
|
Posted
The most disturbing image of hell that I have ever come across was one of complete, eternal, isolation - the ultimate in solitary confinement. The soul remains totally conscious at all times, not least of its isolation and of the passage of whatever it is that passes for time under those conditions. Whilst I value my solitude, one of the attractions of solitude is the knowledge that it will end. The notion of an eternity of total isolation; ugh!
Incidentally, the isolation included from light. No sensation, just darkness and the soul. Not good.
--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
I don't believe in hell - a God of Love would never create such a place in my view.
All evil comes from humans, not some external place or force
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't believe in hell - a God of Love would never create such a place in my view.
All evil comes from humans, not some external place or force
So everyone, regardless of what they've done or believed will be let off and go to heaven?
No justice or consequences in your universe then!
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unitarian1986:
I'm looking for some good discussion on what everyone thinks about what hell will be like. I know obviously no one knows but God but I am just interested in what you guys think.
Empty
--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't believe in hell - a God of Love would never create such a place in my view.
All evil comes from humans, not some external place or force
So everyone, regardless of what they've done or believed will be let off and go to heaven?
No justice or consequences in your universe then!
We see the consequences of people's evil all around us.
Justice? Not much.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Unitarian1986:
I'm looking for some good discussion on what everyone thinks about what hell will be like. I know obviously no one knows but God but I am just interested in what you guys think.
Empty
That is indeed the essence of hell - it's an absence.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Unitarian1986:
I'm looking for some good discussion on what everyone thinks about what hell will be like. I know obviously no one knows but God but I am just interested in what you guys think.
Empty
Eventually. Getting rid of hell altogether does involve chucking scripture and tradition out the window (closely followed by reason and experience, given that the idea of an unrepentant Stalin or Hitler or indeed any murderer or abuser rocking up in heaven side by side with their innocent victims is a hard one to swallow). I think hell exists, but that God's love and offer of forgiveness are manifest even there. The gates of the new Jerusalem will always be open (Revelation 21.25).
[ 19. November 2010, 08:06: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So everyone, regardless of what they've done or believed will be let off and go to heaven?
You mean the way you think you will be let off because Christ died for you?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
You mean the way you think you will be let off because Christ died for you?
Isn't some variation on that what most Christians think? Otherwise he could have saved himself the bother of getting crucified.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't believe in hell - a God of Love would never create such a place in my view.
All evil comes from humans, not some external place or force
So everyone, regardless of what they've done or believed will be let off and go to heaven?
No justice or consequences in your universe then!
Eternal suffering for an imperfect, but finite life is not justice either. And I don't know of any theology where only people like Hitler go to hell either, apart from as often belied in by children. The idea there is eternal suffering in store for not having had the right beliefs is a big stumbling block for me with traditional Christianity
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Unitarian1986:
I'm looking for some good discussion on what everyone thinks about what hell will be like. I know obviously no one knows but God but I am just interested in what you guys think.
Empty
Eventually. Getting rid of hell altogether does involve chucking scripture and tradition out the window (closely followed by reason and experience, given that the idea of an unrepentant Stalin or Hitler or indeed any murderer or abuser rocking up in heaven side by side with their innocent victims is a hard one to swallow). I think hell exists, but that God's love and offer of forgiveness are manifest even there. The gates of the new Jerusalem will always be open (Revelation 21.25).
But by one common interpretation of Christianity, and by your last sentence, people like Hitler would wind up in Heaven as long as they beleive Jesus has taken away their sins...
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
You mean the way you think you will be let off because Christ died for you?
Isn't some variation on that what most Christians think? Otherwise he could have saved himself the bother of getting crucified.
Myself, I believe Christ's death secures the salvation of all men. But Mudfrog apparently does not because that would mean that people are getting "let off". Apparently there's something wrong with people getting "let off". I'm guessing however that he doesn't think there's anything wrong with his getting "let off". It's just those other people who mustn't be "let off".
Or maybe not. Let's let him answer for himself.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
But by one common interpretation of Christianity, and by your last sentence, people like Hitler would wind up in Heaven as long as they beleive Jesus has taken away their sins...
To be fair to Mudfrog, this is a caricature. Hitler would have to repent and accept God's offer of forgiveness, which God's own incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection has secured. In doing so, Hitler would open himself up to the transforming work of God and would eventually become an unrecognisable new creation.
Or would you prefer a situation where some people are forever placed beyond the possibility of redemption?
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
quote:
In hell there is is nothing that is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy.
Cold coffee and Jedward constantly performing.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Herrick
Shipmate
# 15226
|
Posted
Originally posted by Unitarian1986
[/B]____________________________________
I [B]'m looking for some good discussion on what everyone thinks about what hell will be like. I know obviously no one knows but God but I am just interested in what you guys think
__________________________________________________
I believe there will be many questions asked by denizens of hell. 'Why didn't I....?' will be one of the most asked I reckon.
--------------------
A careless shoestring in whose tie
I see a wild civility
Posts: 1194 | From: NSW | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
But by one common interpretation of Christianity, and by your last sentence, people like Hitler would wind up in Heaven as long as they beleive Jesus has taken away their sins...
To be fair to Mudfrog, this is a caricature. Hitler would have to repent and accept God's offer of forgiveness, which God's own incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection has secured. In doing so, Hitler would open himself up to the transforming work of God and would eventually become an unrecognisable new creation.
Or would you prefer a situation where some people are forever placed beyond the possibility of redemption?
No, but Mudfrog was suggesting that according to his belief system, which is just, people like Hitler would not wind up in Heaven with their victims,but would go to hell; I'm just saying that 's not necessarily the case, who's to say he might not before he died have realised what he did was wrong and wanted forgiveness? If you think no one is placed forever beyond redemption, you must disagree with Mudfrog that it is an eternal condition, and think, like Yerevan that even there people will be free to repent and leave?
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
Eternal death. We are not immortal by nature and nobody is going to live forever without the gift of God, which is eternal life.
The prospect that God would give some people the gift of eternal life just to keep them alive and torture them forever is too horrible to contemplate, and certainly not a God I'd want to be spending eternity with.
It's interesting that Mudfrog uses the words "endless" and "conscious." One time when I was feeling particularly out of sorts with my own church I was attending a service at a nearby Salvation Army corps, a place I've always enjoyed visiting and thinking "I wonder if I could go here?" Reading through the statement of faith on their bulletin I came across "We believe in the eternal conscious punishment of the damned," and thought, well, I couldn't go belong to a church that has that in their statement of beliefs -- which would actually let out most other Christians. I don't know how anyone can even say the phrase "eternal conscious punishment" and still think God is in any way just, but people do seem to be able to do that.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I don't know how anyone can even say the phrase "eternal conscious punishment" and still think God is in any way just, but people do seem to be able to do that.
Yes - and to say so and think that God is in any way merciful is putting cruelty with mercy, which just isn't possible.
I agree that those who don't choose eternal life would choose eternal death. But these would be few, imo, when the barriers to knowing and loving God are eventually removed (by death)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
|
Posted
I think Trudy's right. I used to believe in an eternal conscious torture but after studying I just can't see that promised in the Bible. Passages talk of the 'second death' and 'eternal destruction' and the metaphors of fire portray a image of the complete annihalation and removal of all trace of a person - isn't that what fire does - destroy? If chaff is thrown into a fire how long does it last - certainly not eternally! Eternal life is a gift of God to his children, not the natural state of everyone.
I'm not entirely sure but I'm leaning towards the belief that when you die you die, but the hope of every follower of Christ is the sure and steadfast hope of resurection on the last day. The punishment for the unsaved is to receive only the natural punishment of humanity, to remain in ordinary, eternal death.
--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
I've never been able to buy eternal concious torment either, but then I'm not sure how many people who claim to believe in it really do. If I honestly thought that even a minority of the people around me were going to be tormented eternally I don't think I could cope. Yet most believers in eternal concious torment don't seem tres bothered by the idea on a day to day basis.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
I know there are quite a few clergy-types aboard The Ship.
Has anyone else ever had an office visit from someone who has undergone a near-death, hellish expeience?
These experiences appear to be less common than near-death heavenly experiences, or at least, less widely discussed.
But to several people with whom I have met, they are extremely vivid.
Stories of absolute darkness, intensifying, searing heat, and a sense of total isolation and hopelessness are part of what the experiences I have heard about have in common.
One other thing; a sense of being unable to speak, make any sound, or have any control, combined with an extreme desire to call out the name of Jesus Christ, followed by a sudden sense of relief, and a sense of another chance, with an overpowering yearning to seek salvation, followed by a returm to their bodies and a slow regaining of consciousnes.
Now, I suppose that it is possible that each of these people, whom, as far as I am aware, had never met one other, all came into my office to scam me with the same tall tale.
Personally, I don't buy that explanation.
Has anyone else listend to similar stories from visitors?
Has anyone ever had a hellish near-death experience?
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Salvation Army doctrine, copied from Methodist New Connexion doctrines, says this:
We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgment at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous and the endless punishment of the wicked.
I do not believe in being 'let off'. What I believe is that in accordance with the Scripture, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
According to Salvation Army doctrine, all men are 'totally depraved and are justly exposed to the wrath of God', BUT that, 'the Lord Jesus Christ has, by his suffering and death, made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.'
The question of fairness doesn't really apply because it's a level playing field: all are sinners but equally, all may be saved. The only requisite is repentance and faith. Is it fair that Hitler could have gone to heaven had he repented and believed in Christ - well yes, if you demand that the same 'privilege' would have been accorded to you had you been in the same position.
No one is 'let off' because a penalty was paid. Jesus took the penalty for everyone's sin. Of course, Hitler was subject to earthly justice and rightly so. His death without the life of Christ means that he was never redeemed from his inherent sinfulness, in exactly the same way that all humanity is judged unworthy of heaven. Had he repented then God in mercy would have forgiven him. He would, however, have deserved every act of justice this earth could have meted out.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't believe in hell - a God of Love would never create such a place in my view.
All evil comes from humans, not some external place or force
Yes! But first question: Has God-Love granted the humans the right to reject love? Second question: What happens to them?
The Orthodox answer to that question is the explanation of hell that makes the most sense to me. In Clark Carlton's words,
quote:
Hell is that state in which men have rendered themselves incapable of receiving and responding to the love of God (or anyone else). To use the words of Dostoyevsky, hell is the suffering of being no longer able to love ... And yet it is impossible to take this spiritual torment from them, for this torment is not external but is within them.
Hell is, therefore, not so much an external condition of punishment as the inward suffering of self-isolation. When Christ returns in glory and God becomes all in all (1 Cor. 15:28), those who have sealed themselves off in the fortresses of their own egos-those for whom hell is other people-will be faced with the torment of His eternal presence. His very presence will be a judgment and a torment because He is life and love Himself, the ontological antithesis of self-contained individuality. In that Day, there will be no place to hide, no refuge from His burning presence, for our God is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29). In the words of one of the desert Fathers, The fire of hell is the love of God.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So everyone, regardless of what they've done or believed will be let off and go to heaven?
You mean the way you think you will be let off because Christ died for you?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No one is 'let off' because a penalty was paid. Jesus took the penalty for everyone's sin. Of course, Hitler was subject to earthly justice and rightly so. His death without the life of Christ means that he was never redeemed from his inherent sinfulness, in exactly the same way that all humanity is judged unworthy of heaven. Had he repented then God in mercy would have forgiven him. He would, however, have deserved every act of justice this earth could have meted out.
So please explain what you meant by the phrase "let off"? You mean they were granted salvation without having said the Sinner's Prayer? (I mean in your description of the situation described in Boogie's post.)
[ 19. November 2010, 15:12: Message edited by: mousethief ]
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
I've thought for a while now that the denizens of hell wouldn't leave even if given the choice. "The gates of hell are locked on the inside" it's been put, it has.
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No one is 'let off' because a penalty was paid. Jesus took the penalty for everyone's sin. Of course, Hitler was subject to earthly justice and rightly so. His death without the life of Christ means that he was never redeemed from his inherent sinfulness, in exactly the same way that all humanity is judged unworthy of heaven. Had he repented then God in mercy would have forgiven him. He would, however, have deserved every act of justice this earth could have meted out.
So please explain what you meant by the phrase "let off"? You mean they were granted salvation without having said the Sinner's Prayer? (I mean in your description of the situation described in Boogie's post.)
Praying a sinner's prayer will not save you any more than having water splashed on your forehead.
When I used the phrase 'let off' it was in the context of people who had never repented or turned to Christ in faith and trust. Can someone who has never believed, never acknowledged Christ simply by-pass the means of grace and God's requirement that a man should repent, believe and be born again and have his sins unilaterally dismissed?
Should sin be overlooked arbitrarily by a holy God who, in love, provided the way of salvation for all: the aforementioned repentence and the experience of regeneration?
Can the death of Christ be so lightly regarded that those who in the end continue to reject it, despise and mock it should benefit from its work?
The Bible says that God wants all people to be saved - it does not say, however (though we might wish it to be so), that all will be saved.
To have a judgment where there is no judgment
is both illogical, unjust and an affront to the saving work of Christ.
We continue to believe however that grace abounds and it is much easier to be saved (see the story of the prodigal son) than some 'older brothers' might assume.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
I (and many Orthodox) believe that the possibility of salvation is offered beyond the grave. This life is not a trick question pop quiz. This also goes some way toward solving the thorny question of how people who have never heard the gospel are able to be saved. Which would be the overwhelming majority of people ever born.
Unless you're a predestinarian in which case God doesn't give a fuck about the overwhelming majority of people ever born, just his special pets.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
|
Posted
My view of hell is based on Jesus' likening of it to Gehenna, the place of sacrifice to Molech that ultimately became the Jerusalem city dump. It represented the antithesis of all that was good and holy, and was, literally, a waste heap. Humans are quite capable of making waste heaps out of their lives, and God gives them the freedom to do so. Whether one gets a second chance on the other side of the gate is, of course, a centuries-old question. With Barth, I would like to think that God's mercy is available to all who repent even after death. There are possible hints of that in Scripture, but I'll concede it's hard to be dogmatic about it.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Can the death of Christ be so lightly regarded that those who in the end continue to reject it, despise and mock it should benefit from its work?
Conversely, one could say that by limiting its effectiveness to a select few, it is you who is regarding the death of Christ lightly.
The key phrase here is 'continue to reject'. As mousethief says, there is very little in scripture to suggest that repentance is not possible post-death, and as a universalist, I believe that is the role of 'Hell' (a loaded word if there ever was one), to bring the final few to repentance (though not through coercion, although I appreciate it could sound like that).
--------------------
"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
|
Posted
Oh, and
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Bible says that God wants all people to be saved - it does not say, however (though we might wish it to be so), that all will be saved.
"because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (1 Tim 4:10)
It does say it. You might have to juggle around some interpretation with that verse to back up your view (as I do with other verses to back up mine), but you're wrong, it does say it.
--------------------
"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Oh, and
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Bible says that God wants all people to be saved - it does not say, however (though we might wish it to be so), that all will be saved.
"because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (1 Tim 4:10)
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:19-20
And so on.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
[QB] I know there are quite a few clergy-types aboard The Ship.
Has anyone else ever had an office visit from someone who has undergone a near-death, hellish expeience?
These experiences appear to be less common than near-death heavenly experiences, or at least, less widely discussed.
But to several people with whom I have met, they are extremely vivid.
From what I have read there are some NDEs that seem to defy scientific explanation as they seem almost certain to have occurred when, to our current knowledge, there was no identifiable brain activity; however this doesn't apply to all of them. Are you convinced the accounts you heard were from people to whom this applied? If not, were they people who are especially afraid of hell, and therefore perhaps more likely to halluncinate about such things if their brains were lacking oxygen?
By the way, I have read some peoople occasinally report negative, frightening NDEs, but I've not heard of anything as explicitly "hell-like" as searing heat etc before.
[ 19. November 2010, 16:13: Message edited by: Orlando098 ]
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Orlando098
Shipmate
# 14930
|
Posted
Also, when it comes to NDEs, for that matter, I have never read that only people who have strong traditional Christian beliefs in salvation through Jesus are the only ones who have positive ones. I believe people of all kinds of religious belief and none may have them.
Posts: 1019 | From: Nice, France | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
quote:
In hell there is is nothing that is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy.
Cold coffee and Jedward constantly performing.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
|
Posted
A heaven in which Hitler and Stalin are not present (sharing a harmonious breakfast with a concentration camp victim and a gulag victim respectively) isn't worth going to. Not that I believe in heaven and hell as after death states (that's a sort of near-eastern and/or Egyptian myth that somehow got incorporated into christianity in the early decades/centuries after Jesus's death), but, if I did, the essence of heaven would be reconciliation and fraternity, while the essence of hell would be vengeance and isolation. As it is, I think that to live in a heavenly way, promoting reconciliation and fraternity over vengeance and isolation, is good in and of itself.
--------------------
Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
Posts: 3193 | From: Scotland | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
|
Posted
Some of the greatest theologians of the church, ancient, medieval and modern, have held at least quasi-universalist views. The ancient churches have generally always left the door at least cracked to univeralist views.
Where universalism strays into heresy, historically speaking, is in the assertion that God's love of mankind mandates that all people be saved (that is, that God is powerless not to save. That is at least one of the places Origen (or more properly his later students) got into trouble; the problem is in making absolute statements that place constraints on the deity.
What we can say, however, is that all people may be saved (and that, indeed the probability exists that they will), and that we should all pray fervently that this should be the case. I'd suggest we're not very good Christians if we cannot pray unequivocally for that.
Personally, I prefer to remain rather agnostic about the fate of souls immediately after death; what I believe in strongly is the apocatastasis of Gregory Nanzianzen and Gregory of Nyssa; that belief is enough for me.
--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Oh, and
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Bible says that God wants all people to be saved - it does not say, however (though we might wish it to be so), that all will be saved.
"because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (1 Tim 4:10)
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:19-20
And so on.
well indeed ![[Smile]](smile.gif) - not being a Calvinist, I believe in unlimited atonement - Christ died for the whole world and not just the elect. it is true that Jesus is the saviour for the whole world but you have to balance the provision of salvational for all with the reception of that salvation.
Jesus said 'that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish'.
Peter said, 'repent and be baptised every one of you...'
If salvation was won for every soul and automatically applied, where is the free will, where is the possibility of love for Christ? The whole Gospel is preached with a view that men and women will repent and believe the gospel and it is that regeneration experience that saves, that takes the saving work of the cross and applies it reaaly and actually to the soul.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If salvation was won for every soul and automatically applied, where is the free will, where is the possibility of love for Christ?
A carefuller reader might have noticed I said that I believed in the possibility of repentance beyond the grave and didn't say anything about automatically applied salvation.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando098:
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
[QB] I know there are quite a few clergy-types aboard The Ship.
Has anyone else ever had an office visit from someone who has undergone a near-death, hellish expeience?
These experiences appear to be less common than near-death heavenly experiences, or at least, less widely discussed.
But to several people with whom I have met, they are extremely vivid.
From what I have read there are some NDEs that seem to defy scientific explanation as they seem almost certain to have occurred when, to our current knowledge, there was no identifiable brain activity; however this doesn't apply to all of them. Are you convinced the accounts you heard were from people to whom this applied? If not, were they people who are especially afraid of hell, and therefore perhaps more likely to halluncinate about such things if their brains were lacking oxygen?
By the way, I have read some peoople occasinally report negative, frightening NDEs, but I've not heard of anything as explicitly "hell-like" as searing heat etc before.
Of course I had no oportunity to review their medical charts; I lack the expertise, in any case, to interpret such charts had I seen them.
I am interested in finding out if others have met people who claimed experiences similar to these.
Whether these experiences can be considered "real" is something that I probably can not know in this lifetime; however, hearing of similar or even differing experiences from others would at least give me some sort of perspective.
[ 19. November 2010, 16:42: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If salvation was won for every soul and automatically applied, where is the free will, where is the possibility of love for Christ?
A carefuller reader might have noticed I said that I believed in the possibility of repentance beyond the grave and didn't say anything about automatically applied salvation.
I think the teaching of Jesus precludes the possibility of repentance after death:
HERE
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Oh, and
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Bible says that God wants all people to be saved - it does not say, however (though we might wish it to be so), that all will be saved.
"because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (1 Tim 4:10)
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:19-20
And so on.
well indeed - not being a Calvinist, I believe in unlimited atonement - Christ died for the whole world and not just the elect. it is true that Jesus is the saviour for the whole world but you have to balance the provision of salvational for all with the reception of that salvation.
Jesus said 'that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish'.
Peter said, 'repent and be baptised every one of you...'
If salvation was won for every soul and automatically applied, where is the free will, where is the possibility of love for Christ? The whole Gospel is preached with a view that men and women will repent and believe the gospel and it is that regeneration experience that saves, that takes the saving work of the cross and applies it reaaly and actually to the soul.
Mudfrog, in the Calvinist "TULIP" definition of theology, the "U" stands for unlimited atonement.
Predestination is a bit of a caricature tacked onto Calvinism; it is not a defining theology.
If you wish, look up "TULIP" as a means of expounding Calvinist theology.
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
Mudfrog, if a person must conciously turn to Christ before death, what about the millions of people who have never heard the gospel or lack the intellectual or emotional* ability to respond to it in this life?
*I'm thinking here for example of people whose ability to love, trust and maintain relationships of has been horribly damaged by childhood trauma. IME such people can find the idea of trusting a loving, relational God very hard work.
{edited as X-posted with Mudfrog]
[ 19. November 2010, 16:49: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
I think the teaching of Jesus precludes the possibility of repentance after death:
HERE
I once heard an interesting sermon on this passage from an Orthodox priest, who argued that it proved nothing about post-death repentance because the rich man still hadn't got the message and repented. Instead he continued to treat Lazarus as an inferior to be ordered about ("send Lazarus to my family...").
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Faux:
Mudfrog, in the Calvinist "TULIP" definition of theology, the "U" stands for unlimited atonement.
Predestination is a bit of a caricature tacked onto Calvinism; it is not a defining theology.
If you wish, look up "TULIP" as a means of expounding Calvinist theology.
'Fraid not:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
