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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Fair enopugh, Dafyd.

I'll withdraw my earlier comment relating to unemployment. Or perhaps it should be big-city unemployment?

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
For her, to work would only have been a way of getting money, nothing to do with having a feeling of self-respect because she was paying her way by her own efforts.

I think that applies to an awful lot of people who have jobs. It certainly applies to me. If I won millions on the lottery I'd never set foot in the office again. I doubt I'd even bother going in to resign.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
BA you are completel;y missing the point.

If benefits, "decent" or otherwise, were the cause of unemployment, how come unemployment goes up when benefits go down? You would think it was the other way round.

And how come countries with more generous unemployment benefits - such as Germany and the Scandinavian countries - do not have worse emplyment problems than the UK?

And how come some countries with *less* generous unemplyment benefits - such as Ireland, Spain, Greece - DO have worse employment problems than the UK?

Where is the evidence?

Germany has for many years had worse unemployment rates than Britain and unemplyment benefits in Ireland are much better than in Britain (to take just two).

Unemployment correlates better with the ease of hiring and firing labour. Generally countries where it is difficult or expensive to make redundancies have higher levels of unemployment.

Recent data has shown that the British economy has been good at creating jobs but due to the free movement of Labour within the EU the pool of labour has grown even faster - to the extent that 2 out of 3 new jobs has been taken by non-British workers. The trouble is it would appear that the home-grown unemployed are not capable of competing with the imported labour or are not sufficiently motivated.

Show the recent data then! I can't be the only one on the Ship who is sick and tired of your assertions, on this and other threads, that are not backed up by evidence. Is it something you heard from einer Mann in der Bierkellar?

You're welcome to your opinions, but in the absence of evidence, even you don't need to be told how worthless they are.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Alwyn
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# 4380

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
[...] Recent data has shown that the British economy has been good at creating jobs but due to the free movement of Labour within the EU the pool of labour has grown even faster - to the extent that 2 out of 3 new jobs has been taken by non-British workers.

Some call this sort of thing "recent data", others call it "selective statistics [that] are highly misleading". YMMV.

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
For her, to work would only have been a way of getting money, nothing to do with having a feeling of self-respect because she was paying her way by her own efforts.

I think that applies to an awful lot of people who have jobs. It certainly applies to me. If I won millions on the lottery I'd never set foot in the office again. I doubt I'd even bother going in to resign.
<devil's advocate> So if claiming benefits provided as much money as your current job you would be a "welfare scrounger"? <devil's advocate>

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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aumbry
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# 436

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
BA you are completel;y missing the point.

If benefits, "decent" or otherwise, were the cause of unemployment, how come unemployment goes up when benefits go down? You would think it was the other way round.

And how come countries with more generous unemployment benefits - such as Germany and the Scandinavian countries - do not have worse emplyment problems than the UK?

And how come some countries with *less* generous unemplyment benefits - such as Ireland, Spain, Greece - DO have worse employment problems than the UK?

Where is the evidence?

Germany has for many years had worse unemployment rates than Britain and unemplyment benefits in Ireland are much better than in Britain (to take just two).

Unemployment correlates better with the ease of hiring and firing labour. Generally countries where it is difficult or expensive to make redundancies have higher levels of unemployment.

Recent data has shown that the British economy has been good at creating jobs but due to the free movement of Labour within the EU the pool of labour has grown even faster - to the extent that 2 out of 3 new jobs has been taken by non-British workers. The trouble is it would appear that the home-grown unemployed are not capable of competing with the imported labour or are not sufficiently motivated.

Show the recent data then! I can't be the only one on the Ship who is sick and tired of your assertions, on this and other threads, that are not backed up by evidence. Is it something you heard from einer Mann in der Bierkellar?

You're welcome to your opinions, but in the absence of evidence, even you don't need to be told how worthless they are.

The figures come from here and you are welcome to wade through them: Office for national Statistics
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moron
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# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I will take the mickey out of them though, when occasion demands ...

Now I'm curious: what criteria must they meet for you to act?
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
originally posted by Aumbry:
Germany has for many years had worse unemployment rates than Britain and unemplyment benefits in Ireland are much better than in Britain (to take just two).

Unemployment correlates better with the ease of hiring and firing labour. Generally countries where it is difficult or expensive to make redundancies have higher levels of unemployment.

Recent data has shown that the British economy has been good at creating jobs but due to the free movement of Labour within the EU the pool of labour has grown even faster - to the extent that 2 out of 3 new jobs has been taken by non-British workers. The trouble is it would appear that the home-grown unemployed are not capable of competing with the imported labour or are not sufficiently motivated.

Also, Sweden's low unemployment rate is questionable at best. The unemployment statistics of all countries can be massaged by those looking to make a point. As Will Rogers said while doing rope tricks, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
The figures come from here and you are welcome to wade through them: Office for national Statistics

Well, I've waded through them.

At first glance, the headlines are:
Employment rates for UK born and UK nationals are greater than EU and non-EU immigrants.
Unemployment rates for EU and non-EU immigrants are greater than for UK born and UK nationals.
UK nationals are the greatest employment block in every region but London.
The rate of change of employment for UK born/UK nationals is the same as for EU and non-EU immigrants over the survey period (-0.3%).

Of course, you might have seen something I haven't on my somewhat cursory investigation. Which page on this pdf (with the most recent data) proves your assertion?

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Forward the New Republic

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An die Freude
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# 14794

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Aumbry:
Germany has for many years had worse unemployment rates than Britain and unemplyment benefits in Ireland are much better than in Britain (to take just two).

Unemployment correlates better with the ease of hiring and firing labour. Generally countries where it is difficult or expensive to make redundancies have higher levels of unemployment.

Recent data has shown that the British economy has been good at creating jobs but due to the free movement of Labour within the EU the pool of labour has grown even faster - to the extent that 2 out of 3 new jobs has been taken by non-British workers. The trouble is it would appear that the home-grown unemployed are not capable of competing with the imported labour or are not sufficiently motivated.

Also, Sweden's low unemployment rate is questionable at best. The unemployment statistics of all countries can be massaged by those looking to make a point. As Will Rogers said while doing rope tricks, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
According to the Eurostat Sweden's unemployment is at 7.7 %. According to the Swedish national bureau of statistics it's at 8.8 %. The CIA World Factbook has Sweden at 8.4 %. Surely it has to be around there somewhere, no?

What do the statistics point towards for the US?

Thing is, though, that with our welfare system that covers our university fees, many young unemployed in Sweden begin to study in times of a recession instead of remaining unemployed. This could be said to cut the figures of unemployment somewhat, but then again we gain a better educated workforce after the recession is over. Shouldn't this actually speak for the benefits of the welfare state?

Also, the countries in Europe (based on Eurostat link) with the lowest unemployment figures are Netherlands and Austria (at about 4.5 %). Correct me if I'm wrong, but are any of them known for their harsh capitalism and lack of welfare?


ETA: Correction. I'm wrong. The lowest unemployment in Europe is not Netherlands and not Austria. It's Norway. About 3,5 % unemployed, depending on which source you go to. But surely the Norwegians are semi-fascist capitalists, no?

[ 19. August 2011, 15:23: Message edited by: JFH ]

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Depends on how you count unemployment. You've already explained one reason why unemployment statistics don't tell the true story. Is education during recession a good thing? It can be. You could also be a perpetual student.

Norway does have a low unemployment rate. Norway also has the highest percentage of people on disability benefits in Europe. All those people can't work? Yeah right.

My argument never was that all people collecting unemployment benefits were refusing to work. I specifically said the perpetually unemployed. There is a difference.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Ramarius
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# 16551

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I refer the honourable members to my earlier post. If you're looking at a correlation between benefit rates, availability of jobs, and unemployment you only get part of the picture by looking at the national picture. There are significant regional factors depending on how regional economies are configured (e.g. high proportion of public sector workers in the North East of England) and local factors (workless households and high numbers of unemployed people in neighbourhoods that score high on measures of social and economic deprivation).

I'm starting the lose the plot on this - what's the point we're trying to make sense of around work and benefits.....?

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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What criteria 205? Well, generally when they make dumb-ass comments I don't agree with. But I've grown more tolerant in my old age ... [Razz]

You know the sort of thing. 'Europe is going to hell in a hand-cart because it's sold out to the Muslims and to political correctness. The Welfare State is creating a society where people have never worked and lounge around on benefits all day. Meanwhile, we've got a lot more sense over here in the godly US of A and have even enshrined laws about gun ownership into our Constitution that allow our citizens to blow each other's heads off in vast numbers every year ...'

[Razz]

That sort of thing.

You keep your gun laws. We'll keep our Welfare State.

Does that answer your question?

[Biased]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What criteria 205? Well, generally when they make dumb-ass comments I don't agree with. But I've grown more tolerant in my old age ... [Razz]

You know the sort of thing. 'Europe is going to hell in a hand-cart because it's sold out to the Muslims and to political correctness. The Welfare State is creating a society where people have never worked and lounge around on benefits all day. Meanwhile, we've got a lot more sense over here in the godly US of A and have even enshrined laws about gun ownership into our Constitution that allow our citizens to blow each other's heads off in vast numbers every year ...'

[Razz]

That sort of thing.

You keep your gun laws. We'll keep our Welfare State.

Does that answer your question?

[Biased]

Praise the Lord for The Pond. May it ever come between us.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I am, of course, being extremely post-modern and ironic. I am simply trying to get Beeswax Altar to appreciate the untenability of his position by the use of Swiftian satire.

Something like that ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Many Americans, probably most and certainly more people than live in the UK, would agree that you can keep your welfare state while we keep our guns.

We need a pond smiley.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Leaf
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# 14169

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Praise the Lord for The Pond. May it ever come between us.

Umm... hello? What about these socialist few acres of ice and snow?
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
<devil's advocate> So if claiming benefits provided as much money as your current job you would be a "welfare scrounger"? <devil's advocate>

Yes. Which is why it's a really bad idea for the country as a whole to have benefits paying the same (or more) as a job.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
<devil's advocate> So if claiming benefits provided as much money as your current job you would be a "welfare scrounger"? <devil's advocate>

Yes. Which is why it's a really bad idea for the country as a whole to have benefits paying the same (or more) as a job.
What you really mean is 'it's a bad idea to have wages lower than benefits.' If people struggle to live on benefits (and they do, despite the myths) then how do you think they manage on the minimum wage?

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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posted by beeswax:
quote:

Many Americans, probably most and certainly more people than live in the UK, would agree that you can keep your welfare state while we keep our guns.

God have mercy on your soul, cos you can be sure your insurance policy won't.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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Finally, Beeswax Altar reveals the profundity of the inner darkness within his soul.

You're welcome to your guns, my friend. Just don't complain when someone points at you and pulls the trigger.

Such ignorance. Such folly.

If there are more people in the US than there are in the UK who'd prefer to own guns than have a Welfare State then that proves what a bunch of abject sicko ignoramuses there are over there. It really shows that you've got your priorities right.

You prove my point. In spades.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Finally, Beeswax Altar reveals the profundity of the inner darkness within his soul.

You're welcome to your guns, my friend. Just don't complain when someone points at you and pulls the trigger.

Such ignorance. Such folly.

If there are more people in the US than there are in the UK who'd prefer to own guns than have a Welfare State then that proves what a bunch of abject sicko ignoramuses there are over there. It really shows that you've got your priorities right.

You prove my point. In spades.

[Killing me]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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irish_lord99
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# 16250

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If there are more people in the US than there are in the UK who'd prefer to own guns than have a Welfare State then that proves what a bunch of abject sicko ignoramuses there are over there. It really shows that you've got your priorities right.

Now, now Gamaliel... there are some of us that want guns and a welfare state! Come on, we're not all that bad. [Biased]

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I've never said you were all bad, Irish Lord.

Nor do I believe that Democrat = Good, Republican = Bad in any binary sense.

But I do believe that Beeswax Altar = Bad on this particular point.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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At the risk of being as binary as Beeswax, I'd like to know what it is about the following that he doesn't understand:

Guns: weapons, kill people.

Welfare payments: charitable and humane, help people.

See the difference?

Of course, he'd argue that guns actually help people. Because they can be used to threaten any government that actually tries to help people and to protect property and the great American Way.

[Biased] [Razz]

I wonder if he was laughing because he appreciates my exaggerated Swiftian satire or because he's a schmuck?

(Before I get hauled to Hell, I'm using satire again, Hosts. Beeswax is good in parts).

[Biased]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Just to clarify, because I have a tender conscience in these matters, the point I'm trying to make is a serious one. And the point is not to be too binary about these things.

I'm sure Beeswax appreciates the point I'm trying to make. And it's this ... that some of us Brits will react badly if he, or other Americans, suggest what he takes to be an 'inconvenient truth' that the Welfare State is partly to blame for the problems. A 'truth' he apparently sees as 'self evident' ('we hold these truths to be self-evident ...' [Biased] ).

All I'm trying to get him to see is that some of us Brits would equally feel that it is self-evident that the high incidence of gun ownership and the Second Amendment etc is, in some way, responsible for what we'd regard as the scandalously high number of gun deaths in the US every year. Of course, we would also accept that most of these are caused by criminals with illegal firearms and not by responsible gun-owning citizens and that there are conditions in the US - particularly in rural areas - that justify private gun ownership over there in a way that would not be appropriate here.

I'm not trying to do a trade here. You keep your guns if we can keep our Welfare State. No, all I'm trying to do is to get him to see that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If he's going to cite the Welfare State as a 'bad thing' then he shouldn't get too upset if we feel that US health provision is inadequate and unfair and that gun ownership is partly to blame for the apparent 'gun culture' that exists in parts of the US and which is responsible for many thousands of deaths every year - far more, in fact, than was the case over here during 30 years of civil disturbances and terrorism in Northern Ireland.

Perhaps this didn't need spelling out. But I felt it did and wanted to clarify things.

Thanks

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
<devil's advocate> So if claiming benefits provided as much money as your current job you would be a "welfare scrounger"? <devil's advocate>

Yes. Which is why it's a really bad idea for the country as a whole to have benefits paying the same (or more) as a job.
What you really mean is 'it's a bad idea to have wages lower than benefits.'
Same thing, opposite viewing angle.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Back to the original point about benefits causing unemployment causing crime. So far no-one has addressed those points, and no-one has come up with any actual evidence of this effect.

As I wortoe before, if it was true, you would expect increases in the real value of unemployment benefit to lead to increased unemployment, which doesn't seem to happen. And you would expect countries with higher unemplyment benefits to have faster-rising or slower-falling unemployment htna others. Which doesn't seem to happen.

Been thinking about it more. Even within a country or a state the real value of unemployment benefits are higher in low-wage areas, because prices tend top be lower. Now those are associated with high unemployment, for obvious reasons, that I suspect have nothing to do with welfare.

But at the moment youth unemplyment doesn't vary along with adult unemplyment. In Britain the highest unemplyment rates among 18-25 year olds are in London - the highest of all is in Lewisham where I live and Hackney and Haringey are both in the top ten. These are very much the areas where the recent troubles were worst.

But those are areas with easy access to high-paying jobs. Unemployment rates for older people are actually lower than average there, and wage rates are higher. Also prices are higher than in most of the country - prices for accomodation much higher. So the real value of benefits is lower than in other parts. Thirty years ago it was harder to live off benefits in Brighton than it was in Durham - I know, I did both. Nowadays, with the real value of welfare payments much lower, London would be even worse.

If unemployment benefits caused unemplyment you would expect that the effect would be smaller in Londn because the value of benefits is less, and the reward of working greater. And maybe that is true for older people - the ones on long-term sickness benefit for example. (I'm not saying is true but I can imagine the argument) But the opposite is the case for younger, single people. And they were the ones looting.

So whatever the reason for the massive youth unemployment in Inner London is, its clearly not excessive welfare payments.

QED I think.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Garden Hermit
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# 109

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We always thought in Northern Ireland that the 'troubles' in the 1970s were down to overall unemployment in NI being around 10-15% (eg double the UK average) with youth unemployment even higher.

It was a case of people 'hanging around' with nothing to do that made them vulnerable to offers (eg Paramilitaries would pay young people to do 'raids' etc. Figures quoted of upto £500 have been mentioned.)

Maybe its the same in the recent riots. People hanging around with nothing to do and someone shouts 'everyone's looting the shops' and people just join in.

Pax et Bonum

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
People hanging around with nothing to do and someone shouts 'everyone's looting the shops' and people just join in.

Its pretty clear that that's exactly what happened in most of the incidents in London. The question is why this year and not every year, and why some places but not others?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
People hanging around with nothing to do and someone shouts 'everyone's looting the shops' and people just join in.

Its pretty clear that that's exactly what happened in most of the incidents in London. The question is why this year and not every year, and why some places but not others?
I wonder if (assuming the original assertion is true) it just takes a critical mass of people standing around with nothing to do? That would give credence to the 'rising unemployment' argument without necessarily saying that they rioted because they were upset about unemployment.

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Pasco:
most of the police find themselves busy on the highways and byways where prosecuting motorists for speeding/reckless driving is/was not hindered by the courts - a zero tolerance operated here towards motorists.

[Mad] And being tolerant towards reckless, careless and selfish drivers who endanger human life is a good thing? [Ultra confused]
Chiming back in now that I'm (a) back at the keyboard so easier to type and (b) calmed down a bit - until I read Pasco's comment here: this reminds me of the usual whine I had from BMW-driving salesmen caught speeding when I was court duty solicitor: "Why can't the police be out catching Proper Criminals™ instead of persecuting innocent motorists like me?"....to which I would invariably respond: "There are more people killed on the roads each year by pillocks like you driving too fast than there are by so-called Proper Criminals™ like murderers. So you tell me who the Proper Criminals™ are?" [Mad]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I wonder if (assuming the original assertion is true) it just takes a critical mass of people standing around with nothing to do?

If you mean literally standing around, as in the street, then I guess that is the case.

Look at the numbers. About 3,000 people suspected of serious crimes in London over 4-day period - perhaps 50-100 of them violence against people or arson, the rest theft of some sort. The Met estimated 30,000 involved in some way (which I guess includes those just standing around and watching who didn't in fact do anything except giggle and take photos on their mobiles).

The population of Greater London is perhaps 300 times that of Witney in Oxfordshire, the town at the centre of the consituency the Prime Minister represents in Parliament.

So if the inhabitants of Witney had been exactly as disposed to crime as those of London the week before last those numbers might work out at:

- maybe a quarter of a person intent on serious violence
- ten people willing to rob things from deserted shops with broken if they came across a crowd doing the same thing, and if there were no police around, and if no-one seemed to be defending their property.
- a hundred drunken farts standing around behaving like idiots

I've been in Witney (once) and in other small towns on a Saturday night around chucking out time. Those numbers seem quite plausible to me.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Sioni Sais
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<good news tangent>

Reeves furniture store reopens

</good news tangent>

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Matt Black

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Sorry, have to come back on these points

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry but something has snapped inside me; the riots have become a tipping point

So Thatcher closing the mines, the shipyards and the steelworks wasn't a tipping point? Hundreds of MPs stealing taxpayers' money wasn't a tipping point? Bankers helping themselves to billions that weren't theirs wasn't a tipping point? Government being run by and for a powerful media concern wasn't a tipping point? .
Those are all tipping points towards liberalism/ the left, not away from it.
Which is exactly my point. Having encountered all those tipping points previously, you should be as left-wing as I am.
Er...no. Many many factors determine one's political outlook, such as upbringing: I am the product of several generations of small business owners (what in today's business-speak would be termed "Small to Medium Enterprises"). That background gave me a hearty dislike of both big business and socialism, neither of which give much of a toss about such SMEs (an impression, I have to say, reinforced by some of your posts here). So I'm coming I suspect from a rather different starting point from you.

quote:
(x-posted with Matt - I have family in South Norwood, who shop in Croydon and go to school there. Sorry and all, but a sense of perspective is necessary)
Shopping in Croydon is rather different from having a shop in Croydon (eg: my wife's uncles); the latter I would suggest would give you a rather different 'sense of perspective' on the riots.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Gamaliel
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I'm not anti-SME nor anti shopkeepers, Matt Black.

But they're the class that gave us Thatcher ... [Razz]

Seriously, it's a sad fact that the 'shopocracy' tend to be those who are hit the hardest by instances of rioting and urban unrest. In Tonypandy in 1910 and in Llanelli and Tredegar in 1911, the rioters specifically targeted small businesses that belonged to JPs and other pillars of the community as, rightly or wrongly, they believed them to be on the side of the authorities or the people responsible for calling in the military - a bit of a circular argument, of course, as the military wouldn't have been called in unless there'd been serious looting and destruction in the first place.

I doubt if there was any such motivation in the recent riots, though. The family-run businesses that were trashed had done no harm to anyone.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:

And did I mention the benefit trap? Hats off to IDS facing up to this one and saying the basis of any benefits system is that work has to pay. Making work will be easier said than done, but it's an honest and principled approach.

Its not honest, its a lie to excuse cuts in benefits. Because its utterly irrelevant to the majority of the people rioting. There is no benefits trap for single young people with no children who live at home with their parents. They get very little in welfare benefits and they in effect get to keep every penny of whatever thy can earn. Especially in London where benefits are the same and wages much higher.


Maybe when homeless single mothers in Scunthorpe riot we can blame the "benefits trap". But WTF has it got to do with 15-year-old schoolkids in Hackney?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Persephone Hazard

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Warning anecdata alert, your experience may vary, these are not statistics, etc.

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In Britain the highest unemplyment rates among 18-25 year olds are in London - the highest of all is in Lewisham where I live.

I also live in Lewisham. And at 22 I fall squarely into the middle of that age group, and I am currently looking for a job. With my current state of health I don't know how realistic working full-time for minimum wage really is, but thanks to various circumstances - some of which are probably my fault and some of which probably aren't - I don't really have another option.

I tried to apply for Incapacity Benefit once, and after wading through a few forms found the bureaucracy so overwhelming that I failed to even finish the application process.

About a month and a half ago I tried to apply for Jobseeker's. I was rejected because I hadn't officially left university yet (I'm basically in the process of dropping out after two years) and advised that even once I had - which wouldn't be till October anyway because of the way it works - it would probably be another six months before I'd be accepted as I'd then count as "voluntarily unemployed". The whole experience also made me so furiously angry with the entire bullshit system and all its insufferable vileness that I almost felt better off out of it, or at least I would if I was less fucking broke.

I can't imagine there are many genuine benefit scroungers out there, and frankly if anyone's actually managed to pull it off then more power to them. They make it so impossibly difficult even for those who are eligible that I rather admire anyone who manages to get through their ten levels of bullshit well enough to con them.

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A picture is worth a thousand words, but it's a lot easier to make up a thousand words than one decent picture. - ken.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
They make it so impossibly difficult even for those who are eligible that I rather admire anyone who manages to get through their ten levels of bullshit well enough to con them.

I would suppose it's easier to put in the time and energy to claim benefits if you don't actually need to.
It's like the Wally Effect: it's much easier to sack Dilbert, who is trying to do his job, than to sack Wally who isn't, because Dilbert is putting his energy into doing his job while Wally has lots of energy left over to put into not getting sacked.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Persephone Hazard

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I would suppose it's easier to put in the time and energy to claim benefits if you don't actually need to.

Yeah, I suppose so. Certainly it was the very thing I was applying to Incapacity for that made it as overwhelming as it was.

They do that on purpose, though. There's no need, practically speaking, for the ten levels of soul-destroying bureaucracy; it's explicitly designed to put people off. Ostensibly I suppose so that only the "really serious" apply, but that's not the effect it has in practice.

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A picture is worth a thousand words, but it's a lot easier to make up a thousand words than one decent picture. - ken.

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Moth

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This reminds me of an article by Harriet Sergeant in the Sunday Times recently. The bit that made me unsure whether to laugh or cry was this:

"Seeing jobcentres and social services from the point of view of Mash, Lips and Bulldog [gang members she was studying] is an eye-opener. We wonder why these boys do not buy into our society. It is because their only experience of our civic institutions are places such as jobcentres whose complexity, indifference and incompetence would have made them at home in Stalin’s Russia.

After three days of trying to get Bulldog, Lips and Mash a job, of queuing, form-filling and getting nowhere, I finally exploded. The boys led me out. Lips said: “I told you this place fair gives you a headache. That why me and the others do the robbin’, innit. We don’t like coming here.”

Recently I met an official from the Department for Work and Pensions. How did it judge individual jobcentres, I asked. She looked puzzled. “Well, they are always very enthusiastic when we visit,” she said. I suggested she go with the boys. She looked pained. Finally she admitted the department had no idea which jobcentres actually found jobs or how many. It did not even have an internal league table."

No-one who has not applied for benefits should presume to say that they are an easier life than working. Even more stupid, the worst bit is getting into benefits at the start, so there is no incentive at all to take a temporary job then return to benefits. You will almost certainly lose money, be kept waiting for your money for weeks, get into arrears with your rent and your council tax, and generally be made to wish you had stayed on benefits throughout.

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Moth:

Finally she admitted the department had no idea which jobcentres actually found jobs or how many. It did not even have an internal league table."

Why am I not surprised?

Even thirty-odd years ago when I last signed on, and they were better run than they later became (though jobs were even harder to get than now) I never really thought they were abut getting peopel into jobs.

If I remember correctly it seemed to me that the actual main functions the system served were, in about this order:

1) defusing rebellion and riot by providing a minimal income to those who don't work. I became convinced of this one during the summer of 1982 when they dropped the requirement to sign on weekly and started mailing giros to us from the DVLC in Swansea.

2) visibily humiliating the unemployed as an Awful Warning to those with jobs in order to persuade them to toe the line. The Reserve Army of Unemployed has to be visible for the effect to work.

3) a cheap way of recruiting people into the various make-work schemes or so-called training courses that abounded at the time - and were designed not so much to get people into permanent emplyment, as to make the unemplyment figures look good, and divert public money away from the unemployed themselves and into the pockets of the so-called "entrepreneurs" who ran the little schemes.

These three aims are not entirely compatible of course. But on the general principle that people aren't stupid, so if they spend a lot of time and money organising a system that does something then they probably wanted to do it, I reckon all of those aims were more important to them than helping the unemployed into productive work.

Things are not yet as bad as they were in 1981/82, or for a few years afterwards, and I hope that they won't get as bad, but the present governments anti-growth, anti-employment strategy doesn't give me any confidence in that.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Ramarius
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Evening Moth,

Jobcentres know exactly how many people they each get into work. Google Job outcome target and find details on the Jobcentre Plus website.

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'

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Evening Moth,

Jobcentres know exactly how many people they each get into work. Google Job outcome target and find details on the Jobcentre Plus website.

Moth was interested in the jobs found by individual job centres. I've found the site and only national data appears available for 2010-2011 (although regional and district data is available before then). The granularity of data, which would expose relative effectiveness of Jobcentres is now lost (or at any rate, not available to the public - anyone for an FoI request?)

If you know different, could you provide links?

btw, Excel is a fine way to make data available for use and analysis, but a lousy one to present data to the public, ministers or managers for that matter - believe me, I've been told!

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Ramarius
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....district data is an aggregate of individual job centre data.... JC+ knows exactly how each job centre is performing, although comparisons between centres can't be done on a simplistic basis of numbers in/numbers out since factors in the local job Market will effect how easy or otherwise it is to enable people to find jobs....

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'

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Moth

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quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
....district data is an aggregate of individual job centre data.... JC+ knows exactly how each job centre is performing, although comparisons between centres can't be done on a simplistic basis of numbers in/numbers out since factors in the local job Market will effect how easy or otherwise it is to enable people to find jobs....

That may well be true, but it's interesting that if it is, the minister in charge did not know that. It does suggest that no-one really expects them to find jobs, but more to keep people off benefits. Neither my son (21) or my sister (49) have found the job centres (two different ones 130 miles apart) any help at all in actually getting work, though both have good qualifications and my sister has lots of experience as well. Now that she is not on benefits, as her husband works, the job centre have no interest in her at all, though she's desperate to find a job.

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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Ricardus
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Surely it's a bit unfair to rank individual Jobcentres against each other, when the ability of Jobcentres to find people employment is ultimately limited by the number of jobs available in a given area? Sure, they can match people to vacancies, but they can't create jobs ex nihilo.

[Sorry, just seen Ramarius made the same point.]

[ 02. September 2011, 17:48: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Surely it's a bit unfair to rank individual Jobcentres against each other, when the ability of Jobcentres to find people employment is ultimately limited by the number of jobs available in a given area?

Maybe, but one travel-to-work area will have multiple jobcentres. In London, dozens of them - maybe even hundreds.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Ricardus
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True.

FWIW, from my experience of signing on, I'd say your earlier comments are spot on.

The practice of signing on every fortnight serves no purpose other than mild humiliation. It exists to tell the unemployed that "you are dependent on us, and you must do as we say". The actual contact time with an "advisor" is far too short for them to impart any actual advice - even if they knew anything about the myriad different occupations people might practise. (A friend of mine was very offended when his advisor didn't know what an auditor was.)

It doesn't even cut fraud, because if you say you've been applying for lots of jobs and been interviewed for a few, there's no way they can check up on it.

I think the actual front-line advisors know how shit the system is and try to mitigate it by being all friendly and happy and positive. If you come from the right postcode area, that is.

(The aforementioned friend and I used to sign on at the same Jobcentre, but I came from a nice area while he was from an estate so violent it was nicknamed Beirut. They ask you your postcode as a security question and he reckoned his treatment afterwards was much worse than mine.)

ETA: there's also a plethora of worthy-sounding parasitic enterprises whose role is to get people back into work. As it's the Government that pays them, rather than the unemployed, all their effort goes into satisfying the Government that they're a worthy recipient of grants, rather than into actually helping people.

Yes, I am slightly bitter ...

[ 02. September 2011, 19:28: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Eigon
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Bitter, but realistic, Ricardus.
One of the things that really annoyed me about A4E was the fact that, when I was a tax payer, I was paying for that bunch of useless idiots. Thirteen weeks of turning up every day to basically sit around in a room pretending to apply for jobs that I realistically would never get (I used to take my knitting), combined with my "work experience" actually working in their own office, and hearing the despair of their employees who were jumping ship as fast as they could manage it, was both infuriating and deeply depressing.
In the end, the job I got had nothing whatever to do with their feeble efforts, and everything to do with my own networking and good reputation in my local area.

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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.

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