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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Patriarch Kirill, Pussy Riot, and feminism as un-Orthodox
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
It seems as if the relationship between church & state is as close as the days of the pograms against the Jews or any other system other than that of dictatorship.
But the Jesus I read in the Gospel, if anything, says our faith is separate from local politics. He cleared out the moneylenders from the temple, but also said to give Caesar his due.
So where does the Metropolitan's support of Putin fit into all of this?
just one article among many
[ 28. January 2013, 23:51: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Putin has been trying to remake Russia into a version of the Soviet Union for years and part of that has been the Russian Orthodox Church being a backer of the state. If things continue going the way they are, the church will once again be a puppet of the state as they were under the USSR.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
You're trying to deal with several issues at once here. Let's just deal with Pussy Riot. As President Putin hinted, supposing they had done what they did in St Saviour's Cathedral, but in a mosque?
Need I say any more?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
But they didn't do it in a mosque.
Where they chose was significant.
At times churches have been used as foci for civil protest, or indeed, protest by minority groups or individuals. And yes, our dear Lord, used a principal place of worship to make an objection/ protest.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
And look what happened to The Person who made a fuss in the Temple. Even less due process than the Pussy Riot girls are getting.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Need I say any more?
Yes. In what way is an expectation that another religious group might respond in an even more disproportionate way any sort of justification?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Did they disrupt services? If not, it doesn't really seem like such a big deal. They caused a 60-second ruckus and were escorted out. Criminal charges aren't necessary.
Putin and his pals are making a big deal out of this because they're butthurt over being lampooned. Poor babies.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
One begins to think present-day Orthodoxy in Russia is a thin membrane with an entirely different thing just under the surface.
In the past people have pelted priests with walnuts during the divine services, and for their pains they were elevated as saints. Not saying Pussy Riot are saints, just countering the idea that people behaving badly in church are always and everywhere total demon spawn that need to be treated like vermin.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
One begins to think present-day Orthodoxy in Russia is a thin membrane with an entirely different thing just under the surface.
In the past people have pelted priests with walnuts during the divine services, and for their pains they were elevated as saints. Not saying Pussy Riot are saints, just countering the idea that people behaving badly in church are always and everywhere total demon spawn that need to be treated like vermin.
Not treated as vermin, no. Nor treated to show trials as they are. But neither should they be lionized either as some are doing and the extreme reaction of the government is of course making us forget their silly extreme form of feminism
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Would you care to define what counts as "silly extreme" feminism?
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
...Putin and his pals are making a big deal out of this because they're butthurt over being lampooned. Poor babies.
Being laughed at is the most dangerous thing for dictators and near-dictators.
The proposed/potential legal penalties seem outrageously harsh.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
The proposed/potential legal penalties seem outrageously harsh.
Yes. And that's the big issue to me. If they were fined a few roubles for disturbing the peace it's unlikely this would be a story. But instead we have frothing at the mouth and calls for them to be sentenced to prison. For YEARS.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
According to a friend of mine (who is Russian, and a student of Russian history) back when Russia had a divinely anointed Tsar and the Orthodox Church was the official state church, if the only thing Pussy Riot did was create a loud disturbance in the church, the maximum penalty would have been a fine of one ruble. If they'd made a big enough disturbance to stop a service that was in progress, they could have been jailed for up to three months.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Most of the information we have to go on is through the lens of a secular biassed western media. We talk as if St Saviour's Cathedral was just a meeting hall, which was not having a service at the time, but open for saturday morning coffee and fellowship.
This isn't how the russians see their churches at all. In the Orthodox Church there are always blessings and confessions going on in the background before and after liturgy, and to them services never really begin or end, and they all know that. We talk as if these poor naive russian girls didn't know what they were doing, but I don't believe it.
President Putin has said he hopes the young ladies (they are not really "girls") get leniency, and I think they will. The point has been made, and it should be enough.
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Most of the information we have to go on is through the lens of a secular biassed western media. We talk as if St Saviour's Cathedral was just a meeting hall, which was not having a service at the time...
Er, no. No-one has claimed that there wasn't a service and/or other devotions going on.
We talk as if these poor naive russian girls didn't know what they were doing, but I don't believe it.
Didn't know that they were doing what? Interrupting a service? I'm sure they knew that. Singing an anti-Putin song in an increasingly repressive state? Yep, I'm pretty sure they knew that as well.
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
How was this an anti-Christian agenda? Their protest was about Putin. I've read nothing to suggest that selecting a church was anything other than getting a captive audience. Nor have I read anything demonising the church (although plenty of anti-Putin comments).
What I am questioning is the apparent collusion of the church in creating a repressive political environment.
I've thought about what would happen if this occurred, say, in St George's Cathedral here in Cape Town during a service. I can't see the clergy supporting a prosecution (though I could be wrong), it would be completely at odds with what St Georges stood for during the apartheid years. I would expect a more pastoral approach.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
Leaders of churches (not necessarily the whole of the church that they lead) who call for prison sentences of years for disrupting a service should be demonised.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Most of the information we have to go on is through the lens of a secular biassed western media. We talk as if St Saviour's Cathedral was just a meeting hall, which was not having a service at the time, but open for saturday morning coffee and fellowship.
This isn't how the russians see their churches at all. In the Orthodox Church there are always blessings and confessions going on in the background before and after liturgy, and to them services never really begin or end, and they all know that. We talk as if these poor naive russian girls didn't know what they were doing, but I don't believe it.
This is about sentencing and where they fit on the scale. If these girls get the maximum sentence, it's basically saying that they have committed the most serious form of 'disruption of a church service' imaginable.
Even to a Russian, I find it hard to believe that a brief political protest is remotely on the same level as, say, a group of protesters who barricade themselves in the church for days on end, spout large amounts of blasphemy and urinate on the altar.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If an Observer article I read a few weeks back is to be believed, some devout Orthodox believers feel tha t the threatened sentences are out of proportion to the offence.
It also acknowledges that the protest could and did offend ordinary Russian church-goers.
Hardly an example of virulently anti-Christian reporting in the secular media ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
President Putin has said he hopes the young ladies (they are not really "girls") get leniency, and I think they will. The point has been made, and it should be enough.
Well isn't President Putin the humanitarian hero.
But what is the point that you think that has been appropriately made? The accused have been held on remand since February and threatened with a seven year jail sentence. Is the point that in future people shouldn't mess with the State or else, or shouldn't mess with the Church or else?
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
Leaders of churches (not necessarily the whole of the church that they lead) who call for prison sentences of years for disrupting a service should be demonised.
I can't believe people can't see what is behind this - it has nothing at all to do with being anti-Christian or the disruption of the service and everything to do with a protest aimed at Putin. The Russian Orthodox Church is in danger of becoming complicit in abuses of the state just as they were during the era of the Soviet Union. Which saddens me tremendously. That's not an anti-Christian sentiment, it's a purely pro-Christian one as the Church should never be used as an instrument of the state to suppress those who oppose the leaders of the state, when the state is an oppressive one. Putin is very close to being a dictator as he has effectively run Russia whether top dog officially or not and has managed to suppress free press, ensure opponents cannot run against him and has been busily ensuring anyone who dares speak out against him suffers intimidation and punishment. It's rather familiar to me from the days I was a missionary in the Soviet Union.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
But what is the point that you think that has been appropriately made? The accused have been held on remand since February and threatened with a seven year jail sentence. Is the point that in future people shouldn't mess with the State or else, or shouldn't mess with the Church or else?
Indeed. 'If you offend us (whoever 'us' is) not only do we have the power to punish, but we have the power to punish punitively.'
I hate the idea that faithful sincere churchgoers were genuinelly scandalized and deeply hurt by these women's actions during worship. It is repugnant to have what you esteem religiously, somehow debased through blatant intentional disrespect. And the idea of it having been done simply to outrage sensibilities is potentially offensive in itself - though we don't know that that was the case here, and I personally think there probably was a legitimate protest going on.
But imprisoning a group of people for disturbing a church service where no actual damage was done, nobody physically hurt or killed, no explicit civil laws (presumably) broken? That can't be a right or appropriate use of power - even leaving out the question of how the church should deal with its critics from a gospel perspective.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
And look what happened to The Person who made a fuss in the Temple. Even less due process than the Pussy Riot girls are getting.
Yes and the point of Christianity was to say down with that sort of thing. Not just to do it the same but with different hats.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
This isn't how the russians see their churches at all. In the Orthodox Church there are always blessings and confessions going on in the background before and after liturgy, and to them services never really begin or end, and they all know that.
This church rents its space out for $10000 a time to anyone who cares to pay.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
That's the Putin party line. Of course it bears little resemblence to the truth.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=36057
Heres a link from the English Language St Petersburg Times which gives a bit more on the Orthodox view inside Russia.
In the past apparently this sort of thing could have carried the death penalty.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I wonder if journalists are throwing around the possibility of Pussy Riot serving 7 years in prison as a way of making the story more interesting. In the United States, journalists often do this. You hear stuff like this, "John Doe was arrested for aggravated jaywalking. If convicted, Mr. Doe faces up to 3 years in jail and a $5,000 fine." Everybody knows Mr. Doe will get off with probation and a fine under a thousand dollars.
Let's say Pussy Riot pulled the same stunt at Holy Transfiguration Cathedral in Los Angeles. Theoretically (if they drew a zealous yet creative prosecutor, hanging judge, and an unsympathetic jury), Pussy Riot could face up to 3 years in state prison and something like a $7,500 fine. In actuality, the chances of them spending more than a few hours in the local jail would be slim to none.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I wonder if journalists are throwing around the possibility of Pussy Riot serving 7 years in prison as a way of making the story more interesting. In the United States, journalists often do this. You hear stuff like this, "John Doe was arrested for aggravated jaywalking. If convicted, Mr. Doe faces up to 3 years in jail and a $5,000 fine." Everybody knows Mr. Doe will get off with probation and a fine under a thousand dollars.
Let's say Pussy Riot pulled the same stunt at Holy Transfiguration Cathedral in Los Angeles. Theoretically (if they drew a zealous yet creative prosecutor, hanging judge, and an unsympathetic jury), Pussy Riot could face up to 3 years in state prison and something like a $7,500 fine. In actuality, the chances of them spending more than a few hours in the local jail would be slim to none.
As I understand it, it's not merely the maximum sentence, it's the fact that the sentence has been called for. That's rather different from the situations you describe (which I agree, journalists do use).
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am worried that the Patriarch seems to be stirring up patriotic fervor against these women.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
I am told that at least two of the women in question are Orthodox believers.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Let's say Pussy Riot pulled the same stunt at Holy Transfiguration Cathedral in Los Angeles. Theoretically (if they drew a zealous yet creative prosecutor, hanging judge, and an unsympathetic jury), Pussy Riot could face up to 3 years in state prison and something like a $7,500 fine.
That surprises me and I'd think it disproportionate anywhere in the world. I wonder what the criminal charge would be that could justify a prison sentence?
Also, to complete the scenario, you would also need the Most Reverend Archbishop Joseph to be calling for a lengthy prison sentence (including hard labour). And the context would be with the US authorities repressing democracy and freedom of speech, and being supported by the church.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Putin has his knickers in a twist and the Patriarch wishes to keep his sugar daddy happy. What more to the story is there?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
You're trying to deal with several issues at once here. Let's just deal with Pussy Riot. As President Putin hinted, supposing they had done what they did in St Saviour's Cathedral, but in a mosque?
Need I say any more?
Yes, I think you do. Just because Muslims may react badly to something also does not justify Putin's sham trial. And don't kid yourself, there's no due process involved.
I'm not saying that disrespect of religion is perfectly acceptable, but the metropolitan trying to sell these women down the river for years of hard labor is an overreaction born out of pride. They did little more than disturb the peace and trespass, which in most places is considered a petty misdemeanor. The priest involved is trying to convert this into a form of blasphemy trial, which most of the modern world considers abhorrent.
And don't bring up the Muslims. They're irrelevant.
Putin is a thug, and relying on anything he says is morally suspect.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
We talk as if these poor naive russian girls didn't know what they were doing, but I don't believe it.
Who is "we"? And why such belittling words about these women? They are not naive girls they are well-educated, intelligent, and brave women who took a risk to try to expose political corruption in what has once again become the established church of Russia.
If anyone is naive it is some of Putin's hangers-on who have been going over the top calling for their blood without realising how stuipid that makes them seem to pretty much everyone else in the world.
Pussy Riot have already won the propaganda battle, hands down. If the three women on trial get more than a token sentence then they get to be martyrs as well. A lose-lose situation for Putin's cronies. He's probably clever enough to realise that so will probably get them let off.
quote:
President Putin has said he hopes the young ladies (they are not really "girls") get leniency, and I think they will.
Now who is being naive? Do you really think that the Russian criminal courts suddenly became independent of government just because the Communist Party went away? This is a straightforward political show trial, The sentence will be whaqtever the rulers want it to be, ragardless of the rights or wrongs of the case, or the evidence presented, or the opinions of the court. Just like it was under the Communists, just like it was under the Tsars.
quote:
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
Its neither interesting nor true.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
I am told that at least two of the women in question are Orthodox believers.
I'm sure they are Orthodox in much the same way Madonna was Roman Catholic before becoming sort of Jewish.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
I am told that at least two of the women in question are Orthodox believers.
I'm sure they are Orthodox in much the same way Madonna was Roman Catholic before becoming sort of Jewish.
Is it your opinion that they should be prosecuted for a felony?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
And if so I'd like to know what the name of that felony should be?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
It is interesting that anyone with a disruptive anti-christian secular agenda is considered a saint in the western media, and churches which just want to get on with the business of putting people right with God are demonised.
I am told that at least two of the women in question are Orthodox believers.
I'm sure they are Orthodox in much the same way Madonna was Roman Catholic before becoming sort of Jewish.
Who gave you the right to judge another person's soul?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Hell call.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Arguably, what they did was a form of prayer.
No, there's nothing aguable about it - the song was a mockery both of Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church (which, contrary to what Ken claimed, is not the established church of Russia nor wants to be.)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
No, there's nothing aguable about it - the song was a mockery both of Putin
Is that blasphemy now?
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Mocking a crooked bishop is not the same as mocking the church.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Mocking a crooked bishop is not the same as mocking the church.
Not crooked, but maybe lacking in wisdom on occasions.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
You seem to be defending the undefendable Mark. It is wrong to imprison for blasphemy, or to otherwise treat it as a criminal offence.
Even if no prison sentence is given, it is wrong to use the threat of prison to suppress political protest and as a deterrent to blasphemy.
It is wrong per se, and it is wrong because it gives the state a stick with religious window dressing with which to suppress dissent.
Perhaps the global attention will create pressure for a suspended sentence (please God), but this would also be wrong, and in any case, the women have been held in pre-trial detention during this period, which seems excessive to start with. I understand some have children from which they have been separated during this time.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Mocking a crooked bishop is not the same as mocking the church.
Not crooked, but maybe lacking in wisdom on occasions.
At any rate easily distinguishable from the Church, and therefore mockable without raising charge of mocking the Church. QED.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I'm all in favour of refining the target of one's mockery to church leaders rather than the church, but even if they were mocking the church I don't think a prison sentence, or threat of prison sentence, is remotely proportionate.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If an Observer article I read a few weeks back is to be believed, some devout Orthodox believers feel tha t the threatened sentences are out of proportion to the offence.
Yes. There are a few petitions doing the rounds. As my contact details appear on the odd website among the clergy, I have been included in the list of recipients of quite a few e-mails. I might have actually responded to a few if the senders not assumed that everyone can read Cyrillic and understand Russian. I'm talking specifically about the ones sent specifically to UK recipients.
For the sake of clarifying a ninor point in the OP, the patriarch is a patriarch and not a metropolitan.
I have made my unease at current goings on in the patriarchate known before and recent events both in Russia and at home have not helped to calm my corruption-o-meter.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I have made my unease at current goings on in the patriarchate known before and recent events both in Russia and at home have not helped to calm my corruption-o-meter.
I have just realised how this could be construed. This is emphatically not a reference to the patriarchate's local diocese but rather to conversations had with people who have come to the UK from Slavic lands whose churches are under Moscow: people who say they would like a memorial service for their relatives but are not yet in a position to afford the fees that they assume we will charge, people who ask how much they have to pay for each name they want commemorated at the Liturgy, people who come to have their children chrismated because back home they were baptised by Catholics due to the Orthodox priest's refusal to do it without first receiving a fee they couldn't afford. what is going on in the patriarchate that people are assuming this, and are shocked to learn there are priests who don't charge money for grace? Combined with news reports of cathedrals charging for Theophany water, the political hobnobbing doesn't instill confidence.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Arguably, what they did was a form of prayer.
No, there's nothing aguable about it - the song was a mockery both of Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church (which, contrary to what Ken claimed, is not the established church of Russia nor wants to be.)
Why cannot prayer include mockery?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I am told that at least two of the women in question are Orthodox believers.
I'm sure they are Orthodox in much the same way Madonna was Roman Catholic before becoming sort of Jewish.
My source was the Church Times, which I credit with at least a basic understanding of religious questions (more than can be said for many correspondents in the mainstream press). What's your source?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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