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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Harry and Terri - the Schiavo case
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
My friend Harry was a hazel-eyed redhead with a wild beard. He looked just like the Norse god Thor would have, if Thor had been a happy, friendly fellow.
One of the best things a visitor once remembered about our congregation was the day on a previous visit when wildman Harry took him out fishing on the Gulf.
His work put him in some dangerous spots on oil rigs out there. One day his luck ran out, and thru equipment failure a large heavy piece of metal fell on him, causing major brain damage.
Harry took perhaps a year to die. When he died, it wasn't the head injury that took him -- it was the pneumonia that so often takes bedbound people, despite therapies and antibiotics.
That last year, after all was done for him that was possible, he came back to town and lived in the rehab unit at the local hospital. Every day he was dressed and brought up to the reception area. It was thought the stimulation of all the activity was good for him. It was certainly good for everyone else to have him there.
Sometimes he'd react to us visiting. He'd often sob and weep when we'd sing his favorite old hymns. I used to joke with him that it wasn't the nostalgia of the songs but my bad singing that made him cry. Talk radio would get him riled up sometimes.
Harry was hard to reach "in there". It wasn't always apparent exactly what he was reacting to. And it's of course impossible to tell what's going on in another's mind -- but I'm pretty sure he wasn't doing advanced calculus behind those eyes.
Still, it was Harry. And if he had gotten to the point where there was worry about his ability to swallow, and they'd gone to a permanent feeding tube, it still would have been Harry.
It was rough on his wife. It was hard on his family, especially his two boys and his identical twin.
But, it was our Harry. So long as he lived, he lived.
I've seen the videos of Terri Schindler-Shiavo. She responds to things in a direct and almost lively way, compared to how Harry was. She's as bright-eyed and makes as much sense in her responses as many an infant I've handled.
No, it's not a "dignified" life Terri's got now. Yes, it's hard to see an adult reduced to such a dependent status.
But, if the main extraordinary treatment she gets is delivery of nutrients and fluids via a tube, I fail to see why that should be denied her.
Even without the traditional Catholic stance of her family against euthanasia, it just doesn't make sense to starve & dehydrate her. It's not much of a life, but it's a life.
If you who think her husband -- her husband who has over the years gone on to a new woman and started a family -- if you think his word that she wouldn't want to live that way is enough reason to allow the state to yank the tubes -- can you explain to me why?
And if you think the state-sanctioned yanking of her feeding tubes is a shame and sets a rotten precedent for future treatment of incapacitated people -- can you tell me what arguments you base that conclusion upon?
I'm trying to imagine deliberately denying food and water to anyone, in any condition. A baby with severe spina bifida, or Down's syndrome... or denying food and water to Harry. I'm trying to justify it in some sort of hypothetical scenario in my own mind.
I ain't getting it. Y'all explain it to me.
[Added to thread title for clarity.]
[ 02. June 2005, 21:43: Message edited by: RuthW ]
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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fisher
Shipmate
# 9080
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Posted
Any chance of linking to a description of Terri Schindler-Shiavo's state, for those of us who've never heard of her. It sounds like she's partially conscious at least, and I can't imagine anyone being allowed to die in that state in this country.
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"Down, down, presumptuous human reason!" But somehow they found out I was not a real bishop at all G. K. Chesterton
Posts: 1327 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2005
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation
That's one site. Obviously a very let's-keep-Terri-alive site.
There are several articles and RealPlayer clips that may interest y'all. Try to look through the clips (along the right side) of Terri interacting with people.
Is that consciousness, what she displays?
Are those same behaviors consciousness, when a 4-month-old baby does them?
Surely that is consciousness, when compared to the behavior of a "houseplant". That's supposedly what one of her husband's lawyers has called her to describe her condition, a houseplant.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I've followed this one intermittantly and I think it's a really hard call. I think her parents hope that, with therapy, she could improve is probably wishful thinking. On the other hand, it may be Christian hope. Her level of consciousness appears to be quite minimal, but she certainly is not "in a coma" as many people seem to think. Most of what I've read, aside from uninformed editorials that self-righteously demand that she be allowed to "die with dignity" (starved to death while doped on painkillers is "dignity"?), is from her parents' side of things, but her husband certainly does not come across well. Given that her parents are willing to continue caring for her, I find it difficult to find a reason why they should stop feeding her, even if it is through a stomach tube.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. This thread is already full of ten thousand kinds of misinformation.
First off, let me recommend a neutral site.
Second, some facts.
Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. PVS is different from either coma or brain death. It is occasionally reversible, but the more time passes, the less chance there is for recovery. For those who don't know, Terri has been in a PVS for fifteen years. PVS does allow for some basic, "reptilian" functions, for lack of a better word, such as breathing, heartbeat and the sleep-wake cycle. Those are functions of the brain stem, which is still intact. But the part of her that involves all cognitive function is, in fact, gone.
You see, since she had the cardiac arrest, her brain has slowly been reabsorbed into her body, to where the only true medical question is whether there is a tiny bit of living tissue or none at all. It's not that she is brain-damaged, it's that her brain is GONE. Her cerebral cortex has been replaced -- completely -- by cerebrospinal fluid. For her to recover from this would require not years of intensive therapy or alternative medicine, but for science (or God) to grow an entirely new brain and shove it in her skull.
The videos you see on the news have been culled from hundreds of hours of footage. Footage that the courts and independent physicians have reviewed time and again and used to determine that no, she's not really responsive in any meaningful way. What people seem to forget is that while it's made national news within the past year or so, this battle has been going on in Pinellas Park for over a decade. It's not that anyone suddenly decided to do this, it's that it's getting more ridiculous with every passing day.
Her husband reaps the bad press because he generally avoids it. He sued for malpractice and won, with the award subsequently going to maintaining an insanely expensive corpse. He became a respiratory therapist after her cardiac arrest just so he could help take care of her. He has refused to divorce her because he wants to make sure that her wishes have been carried out, and if he terminates guardianship he can't do that. He has sacrificed a LOT for her over the past decade and a half.
Also in Florida, the pecking order, if you will, of next of kin, places the spouse first. So unless you can come up with a reason why he shouldn't serve as her guardian and enforcer of her wishes then he has all the legal right in the world to do what he's trying to do.
Why shouldn't the parents keep her alive? Because those aren't her wishes. Again, this has been determined many times by the courts, through testimony of her husband and her friends. Her parents and siblings are the ONLY people who are arguing against this fact. Everyone else is in agreement that no, she didn't want to "live" like this.
They can't do anything but remove the feeding tube (or withhold antibiotic treatment when and if an infection should set in) because in Florida it is illegal to actively kill someone. Hell, I can remember some 80+ year old man being convicted and jailed for murder because he shot his completely incapacitated wife (who was suffering from Alzheimer's) in the head.
As to my personal feelings? Yeah, he should do this. And the feeding tube should have stayed out the FIRST time they pulled it. I think her family is delusional, a fact which is not helped by the whorish physicians they are paying to tell them what they want to hear. I think that the Florida legislature and US Congress ought to be taken out back and shot, because this puts proof to the lie of their so-called belief in the "sanctity of marriage". "Marriage is only sacred when it suits our whims" and all that. My true feelings on the subject have been noted in the Today I Consign to Hell thread.
If nothing else, this should serve as a catalyst for every adult in the United States to not only draft a very specific living will but also to appoint a Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare. It should also serve as a wake-up call for all Americans who blindly trust their government. Throughout the passage of the various provisions Patriot Act I have been outraged. Now I'm fucking SCARED.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Most of what I've read, aside from uninformed editorials that self-righteously demand that she be allowed to "die with dignity" (starved to death while doped on painkillers is "dignity"?),
I don't know enough about this case to state unequivocally whether removing the feeding tube is the right thing to do in this case or not. I can tell you, though, that if you think it's always, or even generally, the wrong thing to do, you should spend more time in nursing homes and hospices.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I have spent time in nursing homes, volunteering and as an employee.
So far I have been blessed not to be plunged into the "main caretaker" position for a loved one yet -- but, given the condition of elderly relatives I am responsible for helping already, the time is coming. Soon.
I don't hold out any hope that Terri will ever recover any sort of "real" life. I assume her higher brain functions are toast. Those things said, of course, while I admit to knowing diddly squat about her case, personally. I haven't been there to care for her.
Bu-u-u-ut... If she is kept alive by a feeding tube delivering nutrients and water, that ain't no different to me than saying she's being kept alive by a spoon delivering nutrients and water.
I don't care what courts have decided to allow or not to allow. To starve someone is to kill them.
Now -- is it always wrong to kill someone? Is killing someone always murder? That's another discussion.
My word about what you told me you wanted to do with your medical destiny, what you told me before you became too incapacitated to speak for yourself, should count for very little by itself. There needs to be documentation.
Maybe there's 25 witnesses who heard Terri give an impassioned speech in favor of euthanasia before her heart stopped, maybe there's all kinds of evidence in her case...But in general, law ought to require distinct living wills for stuff like that.
You don't kill someone simply because they are dying. You don't kill them because they are now a gal of very little brain. Not giving a fern food and water kills it. Not giving a puppy food and water kills it. Not giving a baby food and water kills it. Not giving what's left of Terri S. Schiavo food and water kills her.
I assume, if the Washington crowd manages this weekend to get her tube re-inserted while they look over her case, that they will be shown all sorts of brain scans to show that she hasn't any more brain.
'Course then the other side can introduce the people I've seen in documentaries who function normally or even at some brilliant level, with much of their brains gone due to accident or disease.
I assume the bigshots will be told that Terri laughs and smiles and vocalizes so rarely, maybe an hour out of every couple thousand.
So I guess they'll have to pick one of her hours when she's not grinning and reacting to Mother or music to yank her tubes.
[ 20. March 2005, 18:35: Message edited by: Janine ]
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
Thanks, Erin -- I was going to post something similar.
Now, just to make matters truly hellish, the U.S. Congress is involved. The Senate Republicans have all saddled up their white chargers to "save" Terri's "life."
You know, the same guys who couldn't be arsed to find out if there really were weapons of mass destruction before consigning 1500 young Americans to their deaths in a foreign desert.
God help us. More important, God help Terri Schiavo.
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
I assume her higher brain functions are toast.
It's not just her higher brain functions which are toast. It's her brain itself. I would therefore argue that she died a long time ago.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
I assume the bigshots will be told that Terri laughs and smiles and vocalizes so rarely, maybe an hour out of every couple thousand.
So I guess they'll have to pick one of her hours when she's not grinning and reacting to Mother or music to yank her tubes.
And this would definitely, without any shadow of any doubt, be any hour of the last fifteen years or any hour of what remains of her life. Because, you see, she is NOT responding to her mother, or to music, or to anything else. The part of the brain that does those things no longer exists. It's not that it's damaged, it's that it is simply no longer there.
The court has determined several times over the last seven years that her wishes were, in fact, to not be kept alive in such a horrible, terrible state. You seem to be asking, Janine, why her wishes should be honored. Her wishes in this manner should be honored so that one day, in the future, when you're in a similar state, your previously stated wish to remain alive no matter what the existence will be honored as well.
It is not the government's right or responsibility to interfere in such a matter. That the US Congress has done so is a public raping of the Constitution. For that, you and every American should be deeply frightened.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
If we can stop feeding anyone without what we consider human intelligence then Capitol Hill will soon be a ghost town. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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(P.S.: The people who dug in their heels wanting detailed proof beyond the "intelligence" re: the weapons of mass destruction, are the same people who complain that our forces didn't go thundering in, shoving Iraqies aside, to take over the weapons caches that were hustled away by Iraqis as we stepped onto Iraqi soil. C'mon, either there were dangerous types and quantities of weapons or there weren't, you can't complain out of both sides of your mouth like that!)
(P.P.S.: Well, you can, but it makes you look silly.)
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
My fondest dream for this situation is that it will end with the Supreme Court bitchslapping Congress back into the Stone Age. What a bunch of power-mad morality cops.
I'm sick to death of people talking about the Schiavo case as a question of a state "sanction". For the state to sanction it would imply that it's any of the state's goddamned business in the first place. It isn't. An individual case like this is especially not the business of the legislative branch. If anything, it's a matter for the courts.
While I'm at it, let me drip a little scorn on the media. Things might be a little easier for everyone if they would quit running that one picture that makes it look like Terri Schiavo is laughing and joking with her mom while they hang out in the hospital. We could also do without obscenely loaded and leading headlines like "Congress works on Schiavo's behalf".
The personal side of the situation is tragic, but not really unusual. Family members often disagree bitterly over the treatment of critically injured or ill loved ones. That's why next-of-kin and power-of-attorney rights are clearly defined. As hard as it must be for the Schindlers, this is Michael Shiavo's decision to make. It's a terrible responsibility that, as far as I can see, he has handled with dignity and integrity.
In the end, the only people I have any sympathy for are the Schiavos and the Schindlers. Everyone else should fuck off and leave this to be handled by the people who are involved.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Bu-u-u-ut... If she is kept alive by a feeding tube delivering nutrients and water, that ain't no different to me than saying she's being kept alive by a spoon delivering nutrients and water.
Not really. Being spoon-fed depends upon the ability to swallow and a certain amount of cooperation (however mindless).
And even then it is not an expression of a will to live. One way that humans (and other animals) indicate that they are ready to die is by ceasing to or refusing to eat. While they might passively go along with someone badgering them into swallowing some food, they aren't eating because they want to live.
quote:
My word about what you told me you wanted to do with your medical destiny, what you told me before you became too incapacitated to speak for yourself, should count for very little by itself. There needs to be documentation.
Maybe there's 25 witnesses who heard Terri give an impassioned speech in favor of euthanasia before her heart stopped, maybe there's all kinds of evidence in her case...But in general, law ought to require distinct living wills for stuff like that.
Yes, ideally everyone would have clearly stated their wishes in writing ahead of time. But Terri Schiavo was what, 25 or so when she had the heart attack?
Not to mention that even carefully written Living Wills continue to run into legal problems because it is nearly impossible to anticipate exactly what medical situations might arise and properly document them all in sufficient detail.
So even when people who do have Living Wills, the courts end up involved because the family, medical staff, or combinations of both end up arguing about exactly what the Living Will meant.
In the absence of a written document, it is quite valid for the courts to take into consideration the sworn testimony of those who knew her.
Perhaps you and others have a strong desire to stay alive for as many days, months, years, as possible, no matter what the cost in pain (both yours and the emotional pain of your loved ones), expense, wasted resources, and pointlessness. That's fine, it's a free country, and you're entitled to request as much.
But please be aware that there are those of us who understand that life ends sooner or later no matter what, and see no need to prolong it just for the sake of staying alive or to maintain a tiny hope of a miracle. We have our rights, too.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Bu-u-u-ut... If she is kept alive by a feeding tube delivering nutrients and water, that ain't no different to me than saying she's being kept alive by a spoon delivering nutrients and water.
But the distinction is that she cannot be fed by a spoon. She has no brain function that would allow her to suck the food off the spoon, much less swallow. If you dripped the food off the spoon into her mouth, it would go into her lungs.
Inserting the feeding tube in the first place was an artificial life-prolonging intervention - which you can say "no thank you" to in your Living Will.
I'm a home health nurse, and we hear the same kind of argument made for mechanical ventilation, which maintains breathing for those no longer able to inhale and exhale.
But, so far, and at least in my state, either the person or their medical power of attorney can decide at any time that they wish to cease this artificial prolonging of life.
We had a client with ALS who gathered his family together during Christmas and decided to no longer use the ventilator - which meant certain end of life. His priest was present; his doctor was present to administer morphine so he went out peacefully asleep.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
(P.S.: The people who dug in their heels wanting detailed proof beyond the "intelligence" re: the weapons of mass destruction, are the same people who complain that our forces didn't go thundering in, shoving Iraqies aside, to take over the weapons caches that were hustled away by Iraqis as we stepped onto Iraqi soil. C'mon, either there were dangerous types and quantities of weapons or there weren't, you can't complain out of both sides of your mouth like that!)
And this is relevant how?
And as someone who dug in her heels and wanted detailed proof of WMD, let me remind you that I have never called for our forces to go thundering in anywhere.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Sorry -- this'll likely be a double post --
I don't want to be kept alive no matter the existance. Heck, I might refuse to be kept alive even if I had a lot more going for me than Terri! The Christian can fear pain and dying as much as anyone, but that leap into the Undiscovered Country shouldn't scare us as it might an unbeliever. IMNVHO.
I don't even necessarily want Terri to be kept alive -- because what I want matters not, I don't have any effect on her life beyond prayer.
All I know is, something besides a brain that functions or is even all there governs what is the person, what is the presence of a consciousness, what is the soul if you will. This I believe because of what little research I can do.
If Terri's not "there", then she's not suffering, is she? Why not let her parents feed her and talk to her and take care of her until she dies? Which she surely will, at some point, especially since various therapies that might keep her more limber and encourage her lungs & heart are not allowed.
Eh, my opinion matters not in Terri's world. I'm just wanting to find out others' justifications for where they stand, if they will share them. Then I might be able to formulate actual verbiage to explain my own positions.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Janine, I have no idea what either of your post scripts have to do with the issue at hand. Is this just a general "rah rah Republicans are great" thread? If so, may I petition the Purgatory hosts to move this to Hell at their earliest possible convenience?
If not, what the hell do non-existent weapons of mass destruction and a two-year time and money sink in some dirtbag country have to do with a woman being treated as a political football?
[ 20. March 2005, 19:09: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
I think the situation is terribly sad and thank God that I am not someone who has to make decisions in this circumstance. Her case seems similar to that of Karen-Ann Quinlan, if ppl remember her.
I wonder about how one can have a holy death - considering that now, refusing medical treatment could be considered voluntary passive euthanasia, where 50 yrs ago, there was no option but to wait for death as comfortably as possible.
Is it any less holy to refuse medical treatment and ask only for palliative care for a condition where new medical techniques might give an extra 6 months life; and where in the past, without the new techniques people would have been given palliative care only from that point on?
The situation of Ms Schiavo is that she is unable at present to make her wishes known (or even possess wishes). I suppose the actions of her husband are based on her indication that she wouldn't want medical intervention to prolong life where she was incapable of living without it.
It boggles my mind a bit that the ethics of it seem to depend on technology and how intensively it has to be used. If there are no techniques to keep someone alive in this state, there is no ethical question regarding their death!
The Church is quite a whore to technology, imo.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Why not let her parents feed her and talk to her and take care of her until she dies?
Because her spouse does not believe that is what she would want. Somebody has to have the final say and that somebody, in our society, is the spouse, not the parents.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foolhearty:
...Now, just to make matters truly hellish, the U.S. Congress is involved. The Senate Republicans have all saddled up their white chargers to "save" Terri's "life."
You know, the same guys who couldn't be arsed to find out if there really were weapons of mass destruction before consigning 1500 young Americans to their deaths in a foreign desert...
The asides/postscripts were addressing the above.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Ah. Now I'd regard that aside as a comment on the hypocritical stance of lawmakers when it comes to the sanctity of life. Let's call a special session of Congress to make an unconstitutional law for someone who is not living in any meaningful way while having no qualms about sending perfectly healthy, sentient, functioning, innocent (e.g., not convicted of a crime under penalty of death) adults to their deaths.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
If Terri's not "there", then she's not suffering, is she? Why not let her parents feed her and talk to her and take care of her until she dies.
Because that would be selfish on the part of the parents...that is solely to satisfy the parents desires of being caregivers. I equate that with getting one of those feedable, diaperable baby dolls or a cuddly stuffed animal.
If Terri's not there, what is so wrong with letting her die? Especially, if as Christians, we are supposed to have at least an inkling of a belief that God would surely take her Home and she would be healed and complete in whatever your view of Heaven is.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
Earlier when I said this was a hard call, I really meant it. Specifically, the issue of nutrition/hydration seems to me to be a tough one. Part of what makes it tough is that we typically think we ought to feed people who cannot feed themselves, whether their inability stems from not having food available (victims of famine) to not being able to get the fork from the plate to their mouth (infants, quadraplegics, etc.). The question is, why draw the line at not having a swallowing reflex? Someone could have not much more brain function that Terri Schiavo and have the swallowing reflex. Are we obligated to feed such a person? What if they lack the ability to chew? Are we obligated to feed them if we must grind up their food for them? Is the ability to swallow somehow more determinative than the ability to chew? If so, why?
I am at least willing to consider the possibility that there may be cases where we ought not to continue feeding someone and giving them water, but I am not sure what those cases are and where we should draw the line. Knowing where to draw the line would seem to me somehow tied up with answer some of the questions I've asked above. Of course, in the case of Terri Schiavo, there is not the luxury of time that answering such questions requires.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
I don't see this one as a question of being able to chew or swallow.
They are feeding a body. There is no one home.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bessie rosebride:
They are feeding a body. There is no one home.
I think personal identity is a rather more complex issue than that. I suppose I just don't know enough to say with confidence that "there's nobody home." Perhaps if I were involved with the situation on a day-to-day basis I might.
FCB
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by bessie rosebride:
They are feeding a body. There is no one home.
I think personal identity is a rather more complex issue than that. I suppose I just don't know enough to say with confidence that "there's nobody home." Perhaps if I were involved with the situation on a day-to-day basis I might.
FCB
I refer you to Erin's post at 14:19 above...the complexities have been weighed and it has been determined that she has no brain left. What sense of identity could you have with no cerebral cortex? Her current personal identity is nothing more than the needy projections of her parents.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
If Terri's not "there", then she's not suffering, is she? Why not let her parents feed her and talk to her and take care of her until she dies?
but how do you know that? how do you know that it isn't hellish torment for a soul to be stuck in some sort of limbo, neither alive nor able to die and pass on to where it belongs?
this what haunted me as my father slowly died of alzheimers disease, his brain slowly rotting away. he wasn't there, so where was he? halfway stuck, until his body could let go and continue the process?
my father was that bad for only a few years, two maybe.
terri s. has been like this for 15 years,is it? longer?
theres the ingrediants for a nifty little horror story there.
lets hope that its just fiction, and not what shes been going through for all this time.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
I'm just wanting to find out others' justifications for where they stand, if they will share them.
My position stems from my wishes should I find myself in such a situation. I'd want the plug pulled, ergo if Terri would have wanted the plug pulled (and all indications are that she would) she should damn well get that wish, and fuck anyone else's selfish opinion/morality/whatever.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
You are quite right, FCB, that it is actually a complex and difficult issue. Unfortunately the OP established a rather black and white tone, which has colored the ensuing discussion.
As I tried to indicate earlier, the complexity goes both ways. The mechanics of feeding aside, I believe that there comes a point when an individual knows that it is time to move on to the next life, but is still susceptible to actions, exhortations, and attitudes in this life which make it difficult to let go.
I personally see it as a form of bullying. Persons who see death as some sort of "failure" keep cheerfully insisting that a dying individual can be dressed and spoon-fed and sit up for a bit, and then use that as proof that "See, she's doing fine, she just needs to be encouraged!" and thus the person isn't really ready to die. But once that person is told "It's OK to go if you want to", they might quietly die within a matter of days, if not hours. It's sort of bizarre to think that some individuals need to hear permission to die, but I've read and heard many accounts of it and it happened with my mother.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
I've been telling everyone I know that I want to die if I'm in a PVS for any significant length of time, and that if any person is the cause of a fuss over my right to this position, I will haunt them all when I finally am allowed to go. The media ANDthe Congress and the crackpot doctor and the wack-job Christians should go home and let her die in peace.
Idiots.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I am watching C-SPAN right now. There are not sufficient words to express the level of contempt I have for the US House of Representatives.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
I can't work up much outrage over whether Terri Shiavo is forced to live or allowed to die. Not that I don't have an opinion, but the fact is that she isn't suffering. She isn't even there.
What makes my eyes bug out and my head threaten to explode is the unconscionable actions of the US Congress and President. This is more wrong than I can put into words. It's not legal or moral, and they blatantly don't even care. I don't think they even understand the concept of "abuse of power" any more.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't see where the difficulty lies. Her husband has power of attorney; he says let her die. What the fuck does what her parents want matter a rat's left testicle?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
And these are the same people who seem to be indifferent to how many Iraqis or coalition soldiers get killed. The sanctity of life seems to be on a sliding scale of a sort which I don't understand. Unless it has something to do with publicity.
I can't watch the news anymore. Really I can't. I just go into a small room, close the door and listen to my Taize CD. Otherwise I can't take it.
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well you know, Sine, if it were a couple of homos, we'd be watching BookTV right now.
Mousethief: he doesn't have power of attorney. Not a Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare, anyway, which is completely separate from your standard power of attorney. That's the problem. Actually, the problem is that the Florida courts have adjudicated, time and again, what Terri's wishes were. Her husband was able to produce far more compelling evidence than her parents were that he knew her wishes. But Mom & Dad didn't like it, so they paid medical prostitutes to tell them what they want to hear.
Unlike Scot, I do care whether she lives or dies, insofar as I think being forced to "live", if you can call it that, constitutes cruel and unusual punishment of an eating disorder. It's a sad situation. But I am outraged beyond all rational thought that the state and federal legislative and executive branches have seen fit to violate so completely, so blatantly and so "fuck you"-ingly the remit that they have been given BY THE PEOPLE.
Vote Libertarian, I guaran-fuckin'-tee that you would never see such a disgusting display.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Mousethief: he doesn't have power of attorney. Not a Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare, anyway, which is completely separate from your standard power of attorney. That's the problem.
That doesn't come automatically with the marriage license in Florida?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
It doesn't come automatically with a marriage license anywhere. DPOAH is an extra-special document that you have to physically draft yourself. A DPOAH trumps a spouse in Florida.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I am watching C-SPAN right now. There are not sufficient words to express the level of contempt I have for the US House of Representatives.
Amen to that.
The vote was 203 to 58. It's been nicknamed the "Palm Sunday Compromise." Bush flew back to DC in order to sign the legislation. An abuse of power (as Scot said above), with political grandstanding as the frosting on the cake.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't know the right thing for Terri, but ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for her and everyone involved.
I don't like the government's involvement in this case. However, I suspect that if I was trying to save someone I loved, and really believed that they were still alive in some sort of meaningful way,...I just might welcome gov't support to keep the person alive.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
However, I suspect that if I was trying to save someone I loved, and really believed that they were still alive in some sort of meaningful way,...I just might welcome gov't support to keep the person alive.
Of course you would. Most of us probably would. But the government would still be dead wrong to interfere.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Ah. Now I'd regard that aside as a comment on the hypocritical stance of lawmakers when it comes to the sanctity of life. Let's call a special session of Congress to make an unconstitutional law for someone who is not living in any meaningful way while having no qualms about sending perfectly healthy, sentient, functioning, innocent (e.g., not convicted of a crime under penalty of death) adults to their deaths.
Precisely.
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
How nice that our fearless leaders can get together in the dead of night and make up laws. That's when all of the most exciting legislation is passed.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Does anyone know of how I can get ahold of the list of Senators in attendance yesterday? Since it was a voice vote there is no record, but I want to know who was there. I have looked and looked and looked, but so far have come up empty.
ETA: never mind, I trawled through several news reports and found out that it was only Bill Frist, Mel Martinez and John Warner.
[ 21. March 2005, 13:24: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Figbash
The Doubtful Guest
# 9048
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Posted
The only ray of light I can see in this fiasco is that with any luck the Supreme Court will strike this down (they can, can't they, asks a Brit?) and in the course shed some legal light on the distinction between:
- something which is alive (if I cut off my thumb and stuck it in an appropriate nutrient bath it would be alive, technically speaking, and therefore an individual entity of the species homo sapiens: does that mean I'd be wrong to throw it away?)
- something which is a fully functioning person (in that it is conscious, can do all the things we associate with humanity, etc)
Now Terri Schiavo is (as has been made plentifully clear above) more similar to the hypothetical thumb than a fully functioning person, in that she has no machinery with which to be a fully functioning person. Keeping her alive seems to me a rather selfish waste of medical resources that could be better used elsewhere, mixed with refusal to grow and move on by her parents, and rather hellish cruelty.
However, it would be good if we could get a clear legal judgement as to where the dividing line is between the clearly alive but not-a-person (the hypothetical thumb) and an obvious person (you and, perhaps, me) as there is plenty of room for ambiguity in there. This could have a major impact on all kinds of areas (abortion, anyone?) which, I imagine, is why the GOP is so up in arms.
As for me, to misquote Woody Allen, my brain is my favourite organ, and I don't think I'd want to survive with it impaired, even if what was left of 'me' appeared to be 'happy'.
Julian
Posts: 1209 | From: Gashlycrumb | Registered: Feb 2005
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
It doesn't come automatically with a marriage license anywhere. DPOAH is an extra-special document that you have to physically draft yourself. A DPOAH trumps a spouse in Florida.
And I have one in my wallet, and my wife has one in hers. It's a vital tool in the modern world. Do the homework. In today's world, it's even more important than a will -- which the BCP makes a religious obligation.
My wife insisted on doing this when a) she was having major surgery and b) I visited Israel - two separate occasions. She was right.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The description "withdrawing fluids/ feeding" I think offers a misleading spin; the implied 'allowing to starve to death' is in fact 'ceasing the pump-driven supply of manufactured feed via a silastic tube inserted directly into the stomach to allow feeding'
Describing food and fluids as a human right doesn't make much sense when the means of delivery is so artificial; one could characterise ceasing artificial ventilation as denying someone's "right to breathe", for instance.
In practice, this kind of situation can often be dealt with by the next pneumonia (which often isn't that long a wait) and then not treating particularly aggressively. I wonder if the present situation has arisen because of aggressive medical treatment of various complications along the way; with emotional ups and downs, and heroic medical endeavour winning through at each battle. It may now be a bit difficult to turn around and suggest everything is withdrawn at one instant.
[ 21. March 2005, 14:17: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
ETA: never mind, I trawled through several news reports and found out that it was only Bill Frist, Mel Martinez and John Warner. [italics mine]
Damn! I used to respect him.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Does anyone know of how I can get ahold of the list of Senators in attendance yesterday? Since it was a voice vote there is no record, but I want to know who was there. I have looked and looked and looked, but so far have come up empty.
ETA: never mind, I trawled through several news reports and found out that it was only Bill Frist, Mel Martinez and John Warner.
I was wondering the same thing. But Jesus H. Christ! Three senators present out of 100?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Supposedly they brokered a deal where Senate Democrats would not return and attempt to block the deal:
quote:
The Senate also needed unanimous consent to take up the bill Sunday. But Frist and Minority Leader Harry Reid worked out a compromise behind the scenes beforehand so even the Democrats opposed to the bill would not return to fight it.
Source: St. Petersburg Times
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
I honestly don't know what to believe anymore 100%.*
I have an Aunt who is totally with the husband on this one, due to her own personal experience with death. My own sister can not understand why I think it is any of my business.
I read stuff like this though and I still don't know... latest report
If this video truly exists then her husband is a big fat liar.
I have read things pro/con and I have yet to think I know the 411 on this. Somebody is lying here, either the parents in their delusions or the husband is trying to cover his tracks. One or the other. There is no inbetween.
*but I am tending to side with the parents on this one.
[ 21. March 2005, 17:35: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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