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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Harry and Terri - the Schiavo case
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
It was only a matter of time before the right to life nutjobs showed their true colors.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
It was only a matter of time before the right to life nutjobs showed their true colors.
This sort of thing seems unfortunate but inevitable. It is bad news because it distracts from the ethical questions that are to some extent begged by the legal clarity that's been achieved. Unfortunately the extremists from the other end of the spectrum need do little more at this point than sit back and watch it all unfold on CNN.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Unfortunately the extremists from the other end of the spectrum need do little more at this point than sit back and watch it all unfold on CNN.
People who think her wishes ought to be respected are extremists? Compared to people who want to hunt down and kill her husband and the judge?
This is a sickening little piece of false moral equivalence.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I'm curious. Who are the extremists on the opposite end? All I hear about are these people, who are, again, right to life nutjobs. There's not a single right to die extremist out there.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
What if the husband and other people who testified that her wishes were that she not be maintained in this state, are lying?
Also even if she did say that, what if she has changed her mind about whether she wishes to be maintained?
And what if the parents and lawyer who reported that she responds to them and tries to talk are not lying or projecting? I am thinking especially of the piece that has been doing the rounds by the family's lawyer who states that she tried to vocalise when asked to tell them that she wanted to live.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I know that it is quite natural as people approach death to stop taking food, but continuing to keep them hydrated is usual isn't it?
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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ReginaShoe
Shipmate
# 4076
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Posted
No, it is not. To continue to provide artificial hydration to a body that is in the process of shutting down is far more uncomfortable, causing edema and other maladies. As one's body shuts down, it can no longer handle the influx of liquid.
(As I learned from being at my father's bedside as he slowly passed away last summer.)
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"If you have any poo, fling it now." - Mason the chimp
Posts: 598 | From: Colorado | Registered: Feb 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Coot:
What if they were lying? That's what the 17 lower court opinions were dealing with - determining what her wishes were and what state she was/is in. That's what that system is for. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this and it's starting to make me insane, how clouded all these issues have become.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I found this article fascinating. Seems that a PEG tube really is on par with a ventilator.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I found this article fascinating. Seems that a PEG tube really is on par with a ventilator.
Of course it is. It involves surgery. It's completely artificial; it's a human, high-order intervention, and it has kept poor Terri Schiavo in a living limbo for 15 long years.
Dear God: most of us are kinder to our pet cats and dogs than her parents have been to Terri Schiavo.
You know, I am currently one of those 43 million Americans without health insurance. I can't help wondering how many of us could see a doctor, get an immunization, or have an annual physical on the funding which has been expended on keeping this poor woman in existence against her will.
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Also even if she did say that, what if she has changed her mind about whether she wishes to be maintained?
Kinda late now -- that's the sort of thing you have to make clear before you're incapable of communicating.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I just hope that her parents, in the midst of their desperation, can find the time and a way to say goodbye.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
And what if the parents and lawyer who reported that she responds to them and tries to talk are not lying or projecting? I am thinking especially of the piece that has been doing the rounds by the family's lawyer who states that she tried to vocalise when asked to tell them that she wanted to live.
Terri vocalizes off and on when she is awake. I heard a recording of it recently when her former guardian ad litem was interviewed on "Nightline" (a nightly news program in the US). The sound is chilling -- like a long, drawn-out moan. From what I have heard from many sources, she makes these sounds involuntarily, unrelated to whether or not someone has asked her a question. So, if Terri gave out one of these long moans a moment or two after the attorney asked her if she wanted to live, I'm not surprised he is circulating a story to the effect that "Terri said she wanted to live." It's like that picture you see everywhere of Terri seeming to gaze into her mother's face. Her eyes dart around when she's awake. Sometimes they dart in a person's direction. That doesn't mean she was "looking at" her mother, and her happening to groan in the attorney's presence doesn't mean she was "telling" him anything.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
What a sad, pathetic spectacle this has been... I just hope she finally finds herself at peace sooner rather than later.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
I heard the vocalization (there's an audio file floating around the net) and not only do I feel cheap and dirty, but it could have been interpreted in whichever way one wanted to. The family claims she said "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA", meaning that of course she was saying "I want to live". If we're going with our own interpretations, I say it was "I want you fucking ghouls to leave me the hell alone".
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Exactly.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Per the news, Terri had Last Rites when she was disconnected from the tubes.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Per the news, Terri had Last Rites when she was disconnected from the tubes.
Actually, what she received was the Sacrament of the Sick (Extreme Unction as it used to be known). The Last Rites involve this and the giving Viaticum (the final Communion). Since she cannot swallow, she would not be able to be communicated.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hmm...the news said that her parents wanted her given communion for Easter--just tiny bits put in her mouth, since she can't swallow. But (per news) her husband said no, because she'd had Last Rites and (something else that I didn't catch) the day her tubes were disconnected.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I'm curious. Who are the extremists on the opposite end?
Why ask me? How would I know, given that my only information on this case comes courtesy of this thread on this website. Your statement here, however, is startling:
quote:
originally posted by Erin:
There's not a single right to die extremist out there.
Given that there are several million people who share your view that TS should be removed from life support — and possibly, I'm one of them — I’m guessing that you don’t know this for sure. Alternatively, you may have made up a definition of 'extremist' that automatically excludes anyone who agrees with your view. So maybe you need to say a bit more here to clarify or substantiate your view.
quote:
originally posted by Erin:
I heard the vocalization (there's an audio file floating around the net) and not only do I feel cheap and dirty, but… <snip>
With respect, why did you listen then? Haven’t you already worked out from reading pages upon pages of expert legal and medical opinion that what you think of her vocalization attempts is essentially irrelevant? Even if you had worked out that she sounded like she was trying to communicate, wouldn't you have suppressed the thought, as you already knew that it was impossible for TS to be attempting to communicate? So the case, in your mind at least, seems to have been closed before you even began to listen.
Not being either God or American, I have the luxury of being able to sit slightly on the fence on this issue. But the more I read what is said here, the more it feels as if your ideology about the right-to-die has pre-determined what you are going to think on the subject.
Corrections welcome.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I'm curious. Who are the extremists on the opposite end?
Why ask me? How would I know, given that my only information on this case comes courtesy of this thread on this website.
I ask you because you're the one who brought up extremists on the other side. If you can't actually name any, why bring it up at all?
quote:
Your statement here, however, is startling:
quote:
originally posted by Erin:
There's not a single right to die extremist out there.
Given that there are several million people who share your view that TS should be removed from life support — and possibly, I'm one of them — I’m guessing that you don’t know this for sure. Alternatively, you may have made up a definition of 'extremist' that automatically excludes anyone who agrees with your view. So maybe you need to say a bit more here to clarify or substantiate your view.
With respect to this particular situation, I have not seen or heard from a single person who has advocated that she SHOULD die. All that I have seen and heard is that her husband should be allowed to carry out her wishes. A right to die "extremist" would advocate that she should be put down like a dog no matter what her personal wishes were. If you wish to characterize those who believe in patient autonomy, including the right to refuse treatment, as extremists, then so be it.
quote:
quote:
originally posted by Erin:
I heard the vocalization (there's an audio file floating around the net) and not only do I feel cheap and dirty, but… <snip>
With respect, why did you listen then? Haven’t you already worked out from reading pages upon pages of expert legal and medical opinion that what you think of her vocalization attempts is essentially irrelevant? Even if you had worked out that she sounded like she was trying to communicate, wouldn't you have suppressed the thought, as you already knew that it was impossible for TS to be attempting to communicate? So the case, in your mind at least, seems to have been closed before you even began to listen.
Nope. But you see, I, unlike you, prefer to get my information from a place other than a debate thread on a bulletin board. So I have read the court documents, which include medical reports, I have watched the videos that her parents claim to be proof of her not being in a PVS, and I have listened to the audio that her parents and their attorneys claim to be responses to questions. If they wish to use that as a mechanism for having the governor and courts in my state to run roughshod over a patient's right to self-determination, then yeah, I'm going to listen. I think it is appalling that her delusional parents want to record her dying days, though.
quote:
Not being either God or American, I have the luxury of being able to sit slightly on the fence on this issue. But the more I read what is said here, the more it feels as if your ideology about the right-to-die has pre-determined what you are going to think on the subject.
Corrections welcome.
Actually, I have no ideology about the right to die. My views on this subject arose from the material I had to research in order to properly instruct new employees as to the ins and outs of the Patient Self-Determination Act of 1990. This is the federal law that states that patients have the right to accept or refuse treatment. Period, full stop. It isn't about the right to die, per se, but rather the right to refuse unwanted intrusions into one's body. Or demand every medical intervention possible. If you wish to call it a right to die ideology, I think that may be stretching it just a bit. Though thinking about it, it's not at all surprising.
[fixed code]
[ 28. March 2005, 01:26: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Gordon Cheng
a child on sydney harbour
# 8895
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
quote:
Your statement here, however, is startling:
originally posted by Erin:
There's not a single right to die extremist out there.
GC: Given that there are several million people who share your view that TS should be removed from life support — and possibly, I'm one of them — I’m guessing that you don’t know this for sure. Alternatively, you may have made up a definition of 'extremist' that automatically excludes anyone who agrees with your view. So maybe you need to say a bit more here to clarify or substantiate your view.
Erin: With respect to this particular situation, I have not seen or heard from a single person who has advocated that she SHOULD die...<snip>A right to die "extremist" would advocate that she should be put down like a dog no matter what her personal wishes were.
OK, this clarification is helpful because it demonstrates that you have restricted your definition, as I suspected. You are defining a right to death extremist as a person who has spoken up and said that TS should “be put down like a dog” — or, if you will allow me to remove the emotive language, someone who believes in involuntary assisted euthanasia. By adding the criteria that they need to have spoken up during this debate, you are able to assert as you did earlier that “There’s not a single right to die extremist out there”.
I, on the other hand, believe that such people do exist, but have had enough intelligence and wit to restrain their expressions of this view in this particular case (and indeed many others) — a case where the outcome has all but been determined and appears from a legal point of view to have passed the point of inevitability. Why would anyone be daft enough in such circumstances to paint an enduring target on themselves by publicly advocating such an unpopular and immoral position? Why not just believe this view quietly and act as they have opportunity? As has already happened elsewhere; an unpleasant observation which I'll return to.
I do wonder a bit at the way you insist on disconnecting the questions of patient self determination and death of the patient, in this case. You seem to imply that the case is all about the first issue and not even a little about the second — at times not seeming to recognise that in this case, patient self determination (as established by the courts) will lead inevitably to death. The questions are not the same, I agree. But let’s not pretend they’re unrelated. Various contributors to this thread who support Terri’s rights have already acknowledged this, eg:
quote:
From earlier in this thread:
*”If Terri's not there, what is so wrong with letting her die?”
*”let her die in peace.”
*”Her husband has power of attorney; he says let her die.”
On the broader question of whether “right to death extremists” exist — allowing for a slightly broader definition than simply individuals who have spoken up in this particular case, the evidence is there that they do exist and will operate cautiously and quietly, but ruthlessly, when legislation allows. The paper by Jochensen and Keown* is reasonably well known, reporting on how involuntary euthanasia is now out of control in the Netherlands, despite its illegality.
This paper by the Disability Rights Commission in the UK highlights how individual cases and related legislation needs to be seen in its wider societal context. It’s likely that the Schiavo case will flow on into all sorts of intended and unintended consequences for the disabled and their treatment. It would be obtuse not to attempt to recognise and discuss these possibilities.
* See Jochensen and Keown, “Voluntary euthanasia under control? Further empirical evidence from the Netherlands”, Journal of Medical Ethics 1999;25:16-21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
If you wish to call it a right to die ideology, I think that may be stretching it just a bit. Though thinking about it, it's not at all surprising.
I am not sure what you mean by this. You might either expand on it, or if it is meant to be a personal statement, it might be best to leave it out of the discussion.
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Latest on blog: those were the days...; throwing up; clerical abuse; biddulph on child care
Posts: 4392 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Dec 2004
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Cheng:
I do wonder a bit at the way you insist on disconnecting the questions of patient self determination and death of the patient, in this case. You seem to imply that the case is all about the first issue and not even a little about the second — at times not seeming to recognise that in this case, patient self determination (as established by the courts) will lead inevitably to death. The questions are not the same, I agree. But let’s not pretend they’re unrelated.
They are only related insofar as death is, in this case, the patient's choice. I would be just as vocal and supportive of the husband if the situation were reversed and the courts had found that she wanted all medical intervention possible and that her parents were trying to impose their will that she be allowed to die.
The quotes that you pulled are instances where people blurred the lines between this case and their personal wishes. I can sympathize with it, because I wouldn't want to be ketp alive in such a manner, either, but it's not what this is about. This is, and always has been, about a person's right to determine their own treatment, even when that choice leads to death. There are, as I see it, only three ways to argue against the course of action that Michael Schiavo has taken:
- Terri wanted to be kept alive regardless of the diagnosis or prognosis, using every medical intervention possible;
- Terri is not, in fact, in a persistent vegetative state;
- Terri never had the right to decide to refuse treatment when the result of the refusal is death.
Now, the first argument has already been defeated by the courts, and Judge Greer is 23-0 in all challenges against that. The second argument is being advanced ONLY by physicians her parents have consulted -- the original physicans and the court-appointed, independent physicians all agree that she is in a PVS. The third argument is the only one left standing, but you're going to have a hard time with that one because Florida (and federal) law does allow a patient to say "pull this shit out, I'm going home".
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
The part of this whole episode that upsets me is that once the decision was made to end her "life" then it should have been done quickly and painlessly. The attempt to ease guilt over the decision by letting her die of starvation and thirst "naturally" is selfish and insane.
Execution of criminals is done with more humanity than the method this woman is suffering.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Gort, where on earth did you get the idea that she's suffering?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Good question. I must be assuming that there is some response there which is experiencing thirst and starvation. That implies a consciousness to experience it, which means she shouldn't be pulled off life-support.
Awww crap. Nevermind. I really don't know what to make of this nightmare.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Amen to that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
Things I Wonder That Aren't Important For Me To Know But What-The-Heck I Wonder Anyway:
* How long after Terri is in the ground will hubby wait to marry the mother of his kids?
*What do you call the second love, a wife in all but the paperwork I suppose, when the first wife ain't dead yet?
*How much of Terri's money will there be left for hubby to inherit -- if there is any money left at all -- after his lawyers take all they are due?
*What sort of coffin do you put such a tiny wasted twisted lady in? She doesn't look much bigger than my little one who died -- her coffin, I almost could have carried alone.
*How long before the Ship brings to our attention a Bobblehead Terri, complete with vocalization chip?
*Will it be a comfort to the new wife, when she prays over the health and safety of her own children, that her husband has experience & knows what to do when a loved one is brain-damaged?
*What, if any, of Terri's organs are suitable for donation? If any were, would they be after she's starved and dehydrated? Maybe the corneas...
*Will there be special interest, a watch if you want to call it that, to see if anything miraculous gets attributed to Terri after she's dead?
*Wouldn't it be freaky if Wife #2 turned out to also have an eating disorder?
*What will they bury Terri in -- what outfit, I mean? And will there be an open casket?
*Anyone who wanted to could hold memorial services of course; I guess her parents will do something along that line. But I wonder if her husband will have any sort of service at all? That's assuming he won't be handing over her body to her parents.
*Is there such a thing in Florida as a mega-church compound where they could have the funeral and the wedding and the cremation/burial simultaneously?
*And if they did would there be a multi-use discount? Maybe one of Schiavo's kids needs a christening, or a First Communion. I mean, as long as they're there...
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Janine--
Um, is this pushing buttons for you? IMHO, that post was way over the top.
BTW, the news has been referring to the woman as his common-law wife.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) to all of Janine's post, but especially to this part:
quote:
*Is there such a thing in Florida as a mega-church compound where they could have the funeral and the wedding and the cremation/burial simultaneously?
*And if they did would there be a multi-use discount? Maybe one of Schiavo's kids needs a christening, or a First Communion. I mean, as long as they're there...
What this adds up to is further smearing of Michael Schiavo's character, all on the sole basis of what you've seen in the media, which has been horribly unkind to the man because he hasn't put his private life on display for them.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Quite a rant, Janine. Hardly makes you look good however. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The part of this whole episode that upsets me is that once the decision was made to end her "life" then it should have been done quickly and painlessly. The attempt to ease guilt over the decision by letting her die of starvation and thirst "naturally" is selfish and insane.
Gort, you might want to go back to page 3 and 4 of the thread. Bessie Rosebride posted a link to a medical paper on artificial nutrition and hydration on page 3; I posted links to info on the PEG tube and patient refusal of nutrition and hydration on page 4.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Wow, Janine. That was by far the most tasteless thing I've ever seen posted here. Not that (a) you actually care or (b) it's any of your goddamned business, but news reports indicate that Michael Schiavo is planning to have her cremated and buried in Pennsylvania, where they met.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The part of this whole episode that upsets me is that once the decision was made to end her "life" then it should have been done quickly and painlessly. The attempt to ease guilt over the decision by letting her die of starvation and thirst "naturally" is selfish and insane.
Execution of criminals is done with more humanity than the method this woman is suffering.
Gort, remember telling me about the euphoria experienced in the 3rd day of a fast?
One of the links on an earlier page of this thread (sorry, forget which one) indicates that TS, if experiencing anything, may be having some version of that.
Personally, I am amazed she's still with us. I thought the human body couldn't go without water for more than 3 days . . .
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Janine, you are obviously offended by the idea of Michael Shiavo having a life, but your reaction isn't universal. Let me reiterate what I said before.
If I was permanently and irreversibly rendered unconscious or vegetative, I would not want to be kept alive by any artificial or heroic means. I would expect my wife to do her best to see that my wishes were honored. If that process took years, I hope that she would continue to live. I hope she would find someone to love and support her, because she would surely need the love and support. She would have my blessing to remarry as soon as I died, or even before if it could be done without comprimising my situation.
If all I had left of life was death, then the only duty that my wife would have to me would be to see me through that process. If someone with your views made that duty harder for her, then after I died I would find a way to come back and haunt you for the rest of your life.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Foolhearty
Shipmate
# 6196
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Posted
What Scot said.
In my case, my next-of-kin is an adult daughter. For me, as a result, this whole picture is complicated by wondering what financial burdens she might be required to assume. I have practically nothing to leave her as it is (though I hope that will change).
But I certainly don't want to be dragging her away from living her own life, attending to her spouse and/or children, in order to maintain someone (me) who has already lived out a reasonable span.
And as soon as I'm moved, I am making out an advance directive.
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Fear doesn't empty tomorrow of its perils; it empties today of its power.
Posts: 2301 | From: Upper right-hand corner | Registered: May 2004
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
If all I had left of life was death, then the only duty that my wife would have to me would be to see me through that process. If someone with your views made that duty harder for her, then after I died I would find a way to come back and haunt you for the rest of your life.
Word, Scot.
I started out thinking that Michael Schiavo was a scumbag. And then I read the guardian ad litem's report, and found out that Michael had even gone to nursing school in the hopes of helping Terri get better. The more I read, the more I realized how unfair my initial characterization of him was---and how driven it was by media that need a "bad guy" in all circumstances.
I admire Michael Schiavo deeply for refusing to pander to the cameras during this circus. I believe he has stuck with Terri all these years because he wanted to protect her dignity and honor her wishes when it became clear that she was never going to get better.
And I hope that he WILL marry the mother of his children quickly, to give them the full range of legal protections they can get only through marriage.
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
Forgive my late posting on this - as most people know I've been in the hospital for two weeks. Which has been an interesting filter to watch the Schiavo rulings come down. All the nurses and doctors want to talk about it, and the universal opinion was:
1) This sort of thing happens every day in hospitals all across the country. If there's outrage for Terri, where's the outrage for the other people?
2) ARen't these the same people who are campaigning for the "sanctity" of marriage so that spouses and only spouses get the rights that the law gave Michael Schiavo?
My basic thoughts kept coming down to how did these people manage to get so much publicity? This does happen every day, even the fight between parents and son/daughters in law. How did these people get SO much publicity that they got Jeb Bush to pass a law, got Congress to pass a law when they're up against a very clear law regarding who makes the decisions?
My other thought is that a lot of people seem to be trying to make Michael Schiavo some sort of villian. I can't help but think that if he was so villanous, he'd have yanked the plug on day one, but instead he waited until there was no more hope. The fact that he's built a second life is to me irrelevant. There doesn't seem to be any indication that he doesn't still love Terri, but equally obvious is his resolution that Terri is no longer Terri and deserves to die as she initially wished and not be kept alive artificially.
My priest came to see me yesterday, and his thought was "why is it not that God's will is for Terri to join God at his right hand? That is the hope and the promise of Easter for all of us." I agreed.
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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sewanee_angel
Shipmate
# 2908
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Wow, Janine. That was by far the most tasteless thing I've ever seen posted here. Not that (a) you actually care or (b) it's any of your goddamned business, but news reports indicate that Michael Schiavo is planning to have her cremated and buried in Pennsylvania, where they met.
But of course her parents can't deal and are now fighting over her funeral.
The more I read, the less charitable I feel toward the parents. I try to have compasion and sympathy for them because they have lost their daughter and are caught in this tragedy but they can't just let it be a personal, private tragedy.
Posts: 598 | From: a van down by the river | Registered: Jun 2002
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Go Anne Go
Amazonian Wonder
# 3519
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Posted
I remember having conversations with people when drafting my advance directive. I asked my friend James if he would be willing. He said he'd be willing, but asked to not be appointed because as he put it "I agree with you on hot wanting to be kept alive in these circumstances, but I fear I don't have the strength to do what will need to be done when the time comes and I wouldn't want to let you down."
It is an important consideration. I admire Michael Schiavo for sticking to it. And I too have really started to feel that the parents are making a ghoulish spectacle out of the whole thing. And now they're going to fight Michael right to the end, even over the funeral. So much hate.
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Go Anne Go, you is the bestest shipmate evah - Kelly Alveswww.goannego.com
Posts: 2227 | From: Home of the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox | Registered: Nov 2002
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sewanee_angel
Shipmate
# 2908
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Go Anne Go:
And I too have really started to feel that the parents are making a ghoulish spectacle out of the whole thing. And now they're going to fight Michael right to the end, even over the funeral. So much hate.
Sadly, that much hate from the parents makes me start to question their motives (much like those that respond to the demonization of the husband). I mean, hell, maybe they were against the marriage from the start and are taking all their grief out on him because they "never liked him." By making this tragedy so public and going after the husband, they've opened the door for such questions about themselves. Not that anyone does, because no one with any decency says things like that about parents whose children are dying. Of course, no one with any decency goes after the husband of a dying woman like folks have gone after Shiavo, either.
Posts: 598 | From: a van down by the river | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
I can only assume that at this point the parents are literally insane with grief and hate. It also seems to me that after trying to use others to achieve their ends they ultimately have ended up being used themselves.
As if they have gotten on a macabre merry-go-round they can't find a way or the desire to get off of.
<shudder>
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, as soon as I saw that Randall Terry was acting as a spokesman for the family I knew each and every last one of them had gone round the bend.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sewanee_angel:
I mean, hell, maybe they were against the marriage from the start and are taking all their grief out on him because they "never liked him."
According to this story they liked Michael very well until he refused to share the insurance settlement with them.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
I think it's pretty clear that if there's any villain in this, it is the parents and not the husband. They've played the press and politicans and public (like Janine) who are happy to get their news from the tabloids and Fox or similar like violins.
For shame, Janine, believing all that baseless twaddle. I thought better of you than that.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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sewanee_angel
Shipmate
# 2908
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by sewanee_angel:
I mean, hell, maybe they were against the marriage from the start and are taking all their grief out on him because they "never liked him."
According to this story they liked Michael very well until he refused to share the insurance settlement with them.
I see. Somehow it doesn't make any of them look any better. I just used the "maybe they never liked him" thing as an example of how the parents' motives could be questioned like the husband's have.
You know, when I first heard about this case a couple of years ago, I had sympathy for everyone, Terri, the parents, and Michael. It is a terrible personal tragedy. I don't want to lose the capacity to feel sympathy for their loss. However, the more I read and the more extreme the parents' actions are, the more I begin to lose the desire to feel for them (the parents) and I resent them for it. I know that makes me a bad person but that is where I'm at.
[ 28. March 2005, 16:31: Message edited by: sewanee_angel ]
Posts: 598 | From: a van down by the river | Registered: Jun 2002
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sewanee_angel:
It is a terrible personal tragedy.
Well, you see, that's just the problem. It used to be a terrible personal tragedy. Now it's a political football and international news.
And for that I blame the parents. They've made themselves public figures and must live with the consequences.
Posts: 10696 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I find some of the protestors to be scary and ill-informed. Especially the ones who violently rushed the hospital, trying to take cups of water to Terri.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by sewanee_angel:
I mean, hell, maybe they were against the marriage from the start and are taking all their grief out on him because they "never liked him."
According to this story they liked Michael very well until he refused to share the insurance settlement with them.
The parents asked Michael to divorce Terri? I didn't see that mentioned in any article I read until now.
And they encouraged him to see other women, but now claim his new realtionship is adultery!
Aren't they supposed to be staunch Catholics?
[ 28. March 2005, 19:14: Message edited by: Lurker McLurker™ ]
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
And that's the thing. Her parents are clearly stark, raving mad, and if I were Michael Schiavo I would not trust them to look after a dead cat, much less my permanently incapacitated wife. It's not just a matter of "well, let them feed and water her and turn her over every half hour", but rather their pathological inability to face reality. They are saying, even now, that she is alert and responsive. After 11 days without nutrition or hydration, and after being placed on a morphine drip, they think she's alert and responsive? That alone would make you at least a teeny bit groggy; never mind the preceding brain damage. It just goes to show how delusionial they've become.
The man deserves a fucking medal for all that he's having to put up with, not least of which are her crazy parents and the lunatic right wing and a public ready to crucify him based on nothing more than the claims of her crazy parents and the lunatic right wing.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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