|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Revival in Cwmbran?
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
OK. A spaceship from Epsilon Eridani 3 landed in my back garden last night. It was flown by cats. You have my personal testimony that this happened. I can describe the cats in detail if you like; the captain was a tabby with a bit of ginger.
Unfortunately the cats vouchsafed to me that they had to be careful not to leave any evidence because of the Prime Directive, so that's why I can't provide any. But they really were there.
Did they leave behind a 'tangible presence' [by which I mean 'untangle presence'], an 'energy' that I can come and rub all over me and take back to my cats?
They didn't say. However, if you come to my house tonight they may come again. If you really really believe in them.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Your accusations show that you only read what you want to as I have never asked or demanded that my views be treated as "Unpeachable truths" and I have always advocated that it is right to test everything and use discernment.
So what, in your view, would constitute discernment in this case?
God can work through someone without endorsing their ministry (see Balaam above).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Rather than someone who believes themselves to be a reasoned individual you come across more like the Pharisees in scripture who wouldn't believe even though it was Jesus working in their own back yard.
The fact is that so far, there is absolutely no evidence for healing that has emerged from this outpouring - and crucially, none for the original one that set it all off.
You argue that people are being encouraged to go to their doctors and check and that patient confidentiality prohibits further investigation. I would suggest that similar confidentiality should in that case extend to the healing itself. One is reminded of Jesus' enjoining those healed not to tell anyone. At the least the healings shouldn't be brandied about on the platform without proper verification. We have been here so many times before.
Meanwhile, there is mounting evidence piling up for the pastor being a serial plagiarist that is verifiable by anybody. The only response of the church so far has been to try and hide it. Of course this does not discount God working there, but it's hardly a ringing endorsement or grounds for recommending people get on down there.
Rejoice that the gospel is preached but keep well clear and advise others to do so too is what Paul would have said I think.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
|
Posted
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".
Incidentally, this is the same Two Locks Church who invited Todd Bentley over in 2011. [EDIT: They invited him AFTER the "inappropriate relationship on an emotional level"]
[ 21. May 2013, 10:24: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
Posts: 94 | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".
Which proves the dictum that history repeats itself, the second time as farce:
"The truth is God is behind it all and we praise Him and bless Him and together give Him all the glory. Ever since Acts two the anointing has been past from one person to another and from one generation to another."
A re-invention of apostolic succession. Presumably the usual suspects (Sister Aimee, William Branham etc) will somewhere in this chain.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".
Which proves the dictum that history repeats itself, the second time as farce:
"The truth is God is behind it all and we praise Him and bless Him and together give Him all the glory. Ever since Acts two the anointing has been past from one person to another and from one generation to another."
A re-invention of apostolic succession. Presumably the usual suspects (Sister Aimee, William Branham etc) will somewhere in this chain.
What utter bullshit. And of course, the Toronto 'blessing' lot are getting their sticks in too. Of course, there is plenty of 'anointing' going on…
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
|
Posted
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
Two people have cancer. One brain and the other lung. They both receive the appropriate medical treatment but both receive a huge amount of prayer for healing. One is cured and the other doesn't. is the one who survives only so because of medical treatment and is the one who does not survive because of the failure of prayer?
quote:
Marvin the Martian posted:
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm
quote:
Marvin the Martian posted:
Yet you reject every test or discernment technique that anyone else suggests.
No I haven't try reading my posts properly.
quote:
Chris Stiles Posted
Chris Stiles Posted:
So what, in your view, would constitute discernment in this case?
I have agreed with Eutychus that if there is any good coming out of a situation where individuals are turning to Christ then we say - Amen. Even if the leaders have displayed behaviour that is questionable. In addition I have recognised that although we need to be weary of such characters their lack of integrity does not disqualify from God using the situation for his purposes.
"In this case"? I have tried to speak more generally about when healings are claimed. I have never mentioned any claims from the Victory church. The only times I have commented directly is from feedback given to me from my own parents and friends who had a couple of visits from the pastor of Victory Church at their home church in mid sussex.
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.
If I just hear something from a forum like this my reluctance to dismiss it out of hand should not be mistaken for I am also welcoming it whole heartedly.
The issue of plagiarism in the case of this thread is a cause of concern. I have not tried to excuse it. However the silence from Taylor towards those who have posed the questions should not be automatically treated as Taylor having not repented or not confessing to those he is accountable to. I am not sure how I would respond to someone I don't know writing to me and asking questions but I would be concerned about putting something into writing to someone I don't know nor do I have any direct accountability to. I know Eutychus is a man of integrity but would I respond to him in writing if I didn't and if he was asking questions? Possibly not.
quote:
Eutychus posted:
You argue that people are being encouraged to go to their doctors and check and that patient confidentiality prohibits further investigation. I would suggest that similar confidentiality should in that case extend to the healing itself. One is reminded of Jesus' enjoining those healed not to tell anyone. At the least the healings shouldn't be brandied about on the platform without proper verification. We have been here so many times before.
No I only argue for the situations I know about and wasn't speaking generally.
Jesus did not use the same method to heal nor did he instruct those healed to follow the same pattern afterwards. The blind man in John 9 never received instructions from Jesus to not tell anyone nor was he to told to go and visit the priest at the temple. After Jairus' daughter was given her life back Jesus simply told people to give her something to eat. In the same chapter (Luke 8) the women healed of internal bleeding was simply told "Daughter, your faith has made you well."
Care has to be made not to put God in a box and say he only works in this or that way. I agree we need to take care before making grand claims and any made must be directed with thanks to God and not seek credit or praise ourselves.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here
Love it. "All credit goes to God / we want to be given some credit for doing it first". Make your minds up guys! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
My goodness, they've changed a bit from the solid Welsh Baptist church my friends attended in the 80s!
--------------------
*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
Not at all. My point is that claims of miraculous cures are extraordinary claims. So it's reasonable to be very suspicious of their veracity without some evidence. Extraordinary evidence, indeed. Not third hand FoF reports.
quote:
Two people have cancer. One brain and the other lung. They both receive the appropriate medical treatment but both receive a huge amount of prayer for healing. One is cured and the other doesn't. is the one who survives only so because of medical treatment and is the one who does not survive because of the failure of prayer?
You tell me. What is apparent is that on average patients receiving prayer do not reliably have demonstrably better outcomes than those who don't. You could substitute useless sugar pills (aka homeopathy) for prayer in your example but it wouldn't demonstrate a single thing. We know the conventional medical interventions for cancer work - not 100% cures, but better average outcomes than no intervention at all. The evidence for the efficaciousness of prayer unfortunately is comparable with that for homeopathy, Reiki, Crystal Healing and lots of other things that don't work.
Hence my scepticism. Would that t'were otherwise.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Marvin the Martian posted:
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm
Assuming you're talking about the girl who had psoriatic arthritis: yes.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm
We are mixing up two distinct issues here: the reality or otherwise of contemporary supernatural healing in general (which to my mind is a tangent or entire other topic) and the reliability of any testimony being given at Cwmbran to support the claim that God is at work there and encourage more people to attend their meetings. That's the topic at hand for me here.
quote:
we need to be weary [sic] of such characters
I don't know about 'need', but I certainly am ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.
The trouble with this is that it is precisely how charlatans get away with things. They abuse the trust of people we trust.
quote:
However the silence from Taylor towards those who have posed the questions should not be automatically treated as Taylor having not repented or not confessing to those he is accountable to (...) I know Eutychus is a man of integrity but would I respond to him in writing if I didn't and if he was asking questions? Possibly not.
I agree that a reply from the trustee I wrote to is not a good gauge of Taylor's repentance (although it would certainly have been the minimum of politeness).
Indeed, because this is a very public issue (blog posts read by people, including Horsham and other church leaders, to form an appraisal of Taylor and his ministry before recommending him), what matters is that Taylor acts in a way that tells that audience he has misled them, and had a change of heart. I have already said that the most upright thing to do would be to put a statement at the address where his blog was.
The facts (I have not heard anything back and that the blog has simply been pulled with no explanation) indicate that the church knows Taylor has been caught red-handed and is now trying to hide the evidence. It's appalling conduct from any organisation dealing with the public and even more so from a church and their response (or lack of it) has made it look worse, not better.
quote:
Care has to be made not to put God in a box and say he only works in this or that way. I agree we need to take care before making grand claims and any made must be directed with thanks to God and not seek credit or praise ourselves.
But Cwmbran is in effect doing precisely what you complain about. As Avila has amply demonstrated, they are claiming that God is present there in a special way and that if you're not there or leave early, you're missing out.
It's them that's putting God in a box here.
And for all the talk of not seeking credit, recent posts have shown how disingenuous that can be: "we're the beneficiaries of this sovereign move of God and aren't we humble about it".
It's like the old chorus "let's forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him"... repeated three times.
I perceive that you are afraid that if you question something that anybody claims loudly to be of God, you will be committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. I contrast this with the attitude to be found in the epistles where Paul does not hesitate, not only to rejoice generously in what he can, but also to call BS in no uncertain terms when needed.
I think the Church struggles with this sort of confrontation and needs to learn to accommodate it. It's one of my great and enduring lessons from the Ship that I'd like to see invade real life a bit more.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
How is turning to Christ measured?
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
|
Posted
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
-----------------------------------------
Polly Posted:
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
-------------------------------------------------
Not at all. My point is that claims of miraculous cures are extraordinary claims. So it's reasonable to be very suspicious of their veracity without some evidence. Extraordinary evidence, indeed. Not third hand FoF reports.
This still begs the question to what exactly you require in order to accept any claim as there is nothing in place for anyone to refer to.
What would it take for you to accept and say "well actually I believe .... happened"?
There's alot that defies human logic when it comes to miracles of God. Some we have better understanding than others and some can be measured better than others. I'm not advocating a blind faith but neither do I accept a blind dismissal.
For example if someone claims a limb has grown out of nothing then this should be fairly straight forward to see by comparing photographic evidence.
But what about when someone has terrible back pain that has been so painful and restrictive and then they find after prayer they have more freedom and less pain?
You seem to want clear cut black and white answers but these rarely exist.
quote:
“You tell me.”
The lady with brain cancer was my mum and she had it again 10 years after the initial lot. The other lady was her best friend. They went to the same church and had the same friends pray over them.
My problem is that I don't agree that much of life is an either/or situation. We can't say that either the prayers worked more than the medical stuff nor can we say that the prayers failed my mums friend and the medical stuff was what purely cured my mum.
In fact after the 2nd brain tumour of which doctors state is incredible mum survived the first lot but it is basically unheard of and nothing short of a miracle (doctors words) that she survived the 2nd lot. How you measure this I don't know but I rest in faith that God did work healing through the situation using pray and science.
@Eutychus
I realise you have been speaking more specifically in terms of Victory Church but I have tried to be clear that I could only speak more generally.
quote:
Polly Posted
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.
Eutychus posted:
The trouble with this is that it is precisely how charlatans get away with things. They abuse the trust of people we trust.
Doesn't this also depend on the level of trust we have with our family and friends and their ability to discern. Without this we would get nowhere in life and would all be paranoid?
quote:
I perceive that you are afraid that if you question something that anybody claims loudly to be of God, you will be committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. I contrast this with the attitude to be found in the epistles where Paul does not hesitate, not only to rejoice generously in what he can, but also to call BS in no uncertain terms when needed.
This is an internet forum and I communicate with individuals I barely know and so I also need to work out discernment in regards to this. On so many levels what people say here and the accusations they make have to be treated in the same way I would when I look at a situation like Victory church from afar.
There's no fear but I also have to accept that I have only heard one side of the story and judgement is not accepted but suspended until I feel I have all the facts. You may feel you have given those but it is right to wait and see.
In the meantime I have no desire to listen to his podcasts or visit the church and will pray that whatever is happening God will separate the wheat and the crap.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
Polly:
quote:
For example if someone claims a limb has grown out of nothing then this should be fairly straight forward to see by comparing photographic evidence.
But what about when someone has terrible back pain that has been so painful and restrictive and then they find after prayer they have more freedom and less pain?
This is exactly the problem. The supposed healings are always of the second type, never of the first - or if they are, no evidence is put forward. Why is that? Why does God only ever heal when it's a bit hard to demonstrate that he actually did? Why not regrow a limb?
Nor do you have a blind dismissal from me. Just a healthy scepticism and a request that extraordinary claims be supported by appropriate evidence. Without that you can end up believing any old load of crap.
[ 21. May 2013, 13:55: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Doesn't this also depend on the level of trust we have with our family and friends and their ability to discern. Without this we would get nowhere in life and would all be paranoid?
For a story of how Christian individuals and organisations (including Operation Mobilisation and Wheaton College) were swindled out of a total of $135 million using precisely this mechanism, see here.
I don't think this is a question of paranoia but of poor discernment and failure to make verifications comensurate with our responsibilities.
Regarding poor discernment, the problem could be described as "bait and switch". Individuals note one thing and take it as validation of something similar but distinct. People "cheered when the doors were opened", ergo there is a "great atmosphere" in the meeting; there is a "great atmosphere" in the meeting, ergo the claims of healing are genuine, and so on. These things might go together, but the presence of one does not validate the other.
Regarding verifications, as has been said many times on this thread, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. We ignore this at our peril. The Bible has pages and pages about counterfeits, false prophets, and people saying Jesus is over here or over there. Somehow evangelicals/charismatics especially seem to think these passages refer to catholics or freemasons or the Illuminati or some such, and totally fail to apply them sensibly in their midst.
There's no need to look for secret symbols or play anything backwards here. The plagiarism of a Bible School principal is in plain view, as is Taylor's place on the books of a promotional agency. Certainly in plainer view than any documented healing. You can't prove that kind of misdemeanour with Bible verses, though, so discussing it just doesn't sound very holy, and the tendency is (apparently) to ignore it.
This doesn't mean we should become unduly suspicious of everything our family and friends tell us - but if it starts involving a commitment on our part, then yes we should check it out.
Trust doesn’t mean there’s no need for control. I think that's one of the biggest lies abusive christian leaders get their followers to swallow.
Verification is all the more important if we are saying something from a pulpit or any other position of authority. For Andy Robinson of Horsham to mention to a friend in the pub that there seem to be good things coming out of Cwmbran is one thing. For him to write that on his blog in his capacity as a church leader is another. For Richard Taylor to have passed off what Robinson recommends as being Taylor's own work when it isn't is another still.
To take another really different example, if I read a death notice in the paper, I'll probably assume it's true. But whenever I do a funeral, I make sure I have the death certificate first. Call me paranoid if you will, but so far I'm fairly sure I've buried the right people and no empty coffins.
[ 21. May 2013, 14:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Karl I think you should know that in a dose of synchronicity I am listening to "All this time" by Sting:
quote:
How come they go crazy in congregations but only get better one by one?
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
Simple question: what fruit have we seen from all the services and all the healings? In other words how have people's lives been changed (not just their bodies - if they have)?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
To be fair, that sort of thing takes a little bit longer.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sidefall
Apprentice
# 16394
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.
I think it would be fairer to say that the plagiarism issue (and how Victory Church have dealt with it) has made Eutychus particularly wary of the claimed healings and miracles.
The point being that extraordinary claims require a greater level of (a) integrity on the part of those making the claims, and (b) scrutiny on the part of everyone else.
I think there's been a sense on this thread that we should actually reduce our wariness when people make claims of the Lord being at work powerfully.* I'm with Eutychus; this is a dangerous approach which opens Christians up to mockery should the claims not stand up to scrutiny, and it can also lead to interested Christians having hyped up expectations followed by disappointment and bitterness.
*I don't think anyone's used this exact phrase but it's the idea that we shouldn't 'quench the Holy Spirit' with questions and doubting.
Let me repeat something I said earlier - the track record of healings and miracles amongst charismatic and pentecostal groups is atrocious. They are happy to report claims by people who think they've been healed, but these claims never stand up to close examination.
EDIT: I would add that many of those who claim healing ministries are expert manipulators who are able to trick people into thinking they've been healed when in reality nothing has happened.
The Bible is full of warnings against deception, and we're told to be careful and test everything, so the Holy Spirit isn't going to be quenched when we do what Bible says and ask questions.
Let's focus on what sparked the current events. The claim is that a man, who was in a wheelchair and unable to walk following a car crash 10 years ago, was miraculously healed. But all we've been given is this man's first name, Paul, and nothing else. Now he may not want to become a public figure, in which case we should respect his desire for privacy. So I have to ask what's his full name, exactly what was he suffering from, and can anyone confirm his story. Sadly, it is the case that preachers have used stooges to trick people into believing that miracles are happening. Or the man could have been in a wheelchair because of pain (as opposed to a spinal injury), in which case the euphoria of the meeting could have provided temporary relief.
If I had been crippled for a decade and God healed me, I'd wamt to tell the world at every opportunity. But we haven't even had a testimony from him, which makes me very suspicious.
[ 21. May 2013, 15:30: Message edited by: sidefall ]
Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Simple question: what fruit have we seen from all the services and all the healings? In other words how have people's lives been changed (not just their bodies - if they have)?
You here this a lot. Some preacher is revealed to be a fraud and all the tricks are exposed and then some plonker says 'yeah, but look at those lives that were changed! Some people turned their backs on drugs (etc.); surely that's the work of The Spirit! How can you criticise that?!'. All kinds of self-help programmes get exactly the same results.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Simple question: what fruit have we seen from all the services and all the healings? In other words how have people's lives been changed (not just their bodies - if they have)?
You here this a lot. Some preacher is revealed to be a fraud and all the tricks are exposed and then some plonker says 'yeah, but look at those lives that were changed! Some people turned their backs on drugs (etc.); surely that's the work of The Spirit! How can you criticise that?!'. All kinds of self-help programmes get exactly the same results.
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
There's often (always?) counterfeit miracles during such crusades. Sometimes deliberate (planned confusion IMHO) - sometimes it's accidental (overhype). Sometimes it's because someone gets some attention, sometimes things happen in the excitment and expectation of the meeting. (Just watch a football crowd for evidence of group dynamics affecting the behaviour of individuals).
The real tragedy would be if the hype actually masked the real work God was doing - and in the age of the spectacular, this is both possible and likely. Most people aren't interested that much in how someone else comes to love God more -but if you claim they do that as a result of healing, then that's another matter.
I've seen people today whose lives are being impacted for good by the church. Are they healed? Depends on your terminology - all I can say is that one disfunctional family is not so any more as a result of someone helping them to understand soemthing that seems pretty basic to the rest of us. Yes soemone else from outisde the church could've helped them - but the fact is they didn't. They have washed their hands of this family. Their lives have changed and they no longer have to feel so awful and helpless just because their mum was brought up in care and never taught anything and never affirmed as a person. That won't get headline news but I think it warms God's heart - it certainly does mine.
What about the 2 Christian women who sat with an old man in the church while they waited for an ambulance for him? He'd collapsed. Not healing but love that will play a part in making that person feel that he's valued by someone.
I just think we miss the real stuff God is doing because we crave the spectacular.
Be careful too of looking at parallels with the Welsh Revival. There were very specific historical factors at play and a lot of hype too: it's not coincidental that the major players dropped out of sight very quickly.
I believe God heals BUT I don't suspend my brain over claims that don't stand up.Surely it's not so much an issue of how they went down or what they did in the church, but of what they look like outside?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
There are zero recorded faith healings. Doctors have been cooperating with self-professed faith healers for several decades, maybe longer and have produced countless books, studies and articles. None of them reveal a single proven faith healing.
If you have access to databases of scholarly journals (or hard copies, like the old days!), just dip right in. A pioneer in this was William Nolan who conducted long-term studies of a group of people that evangelical healer Kathryn Kuhlman claimed to have healed. Not only were none of them healed (surprise!) her intervention seems to have hastened the worsening and, in one case, death of a worshiper. There are many other case studies, but as not one has turned up a 'real miracle', evangelical 'healers' are increasingly reluctant to take part.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
|
Posted
I'm not going to repeat previous posts and will remain speaking in general about these issues.
Please note for the zillionth time though that I am not advocating blind faith or the place to ask the hard questions especially in the face of supernatural claims to healings and miracles.
It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?
There has been no answer.
Further still the point that all charismatics are the same is such a lazy accusation and just doesn't stand up and is purely based on limited knowledge.
But I do accept that some have represented the Kingdom badly but then again so have Anglicans, Baptists (of which I am one), Catholics etc. My local Anglican vicar in Croydon stole thousands of pounds from the church and this was a very traditional church. Discernment is required in all areas of the church because wolves will work in all circles.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Be careful too of looking at parallels with the Welsh Revival. There were very specific historical factors at play and a lot of hype too: it's not coincidental that the major players dropped out of sight very quickly.
Yet on a bit I listened to yesterday comments were made about how the Welsh Revival started at a Wed night meeting, and this outpouring had too. Not that they are trying to suggest they are the new Welsh Revival...but you better get here...
Interesting chat with someone today - she had attended with her mother who had wanted to go to Reinhard Bonnke event. The mother had a lot of pain and used a stick. with prayer she was encouraged to throw away her stick and she ran back down the aisle. But although the adrenaline meant she could by the end of teh meeting she was in agony and they had to search for her stick among the throwaways - and weren't the only ones. First time I have heard an 'I was there' account of what suspected, and Derren Brown did one of his expose pieces on this principle.
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
|
Posted
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?
Speaking only for myself, Polly, I would expect medical authentication in cases of medical conditions. If, after prayer, someone became symptom free and the healing was confirmed by their physician (assuming it was not a condition given to spontaneous remission) I would accept that as divine intervention.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?
But I do accept that some have represented the Kingdom badly but then again so have Anglicans, Baptists (of which I am one), Catholics etc. My local Anglican vicar in Croydon stole thousands of pounds from the church and this was a very traditional church. Discernment is required in all areas of the church because wolves will work in all circles.
Polly, I am also a Baptist, open to charismatic gifts and expression and have been part of the leadership in 2 churches which have gone into renewal.
I have also picked up the pieces in several churches when things have gone wrong. Not just BUGB churches. In one case it was a very "happening" church but at the heart of it was exploitation and abuse. God was seemingly healing through an abusive pastor - but on the revelation that he was sexually involved with members of his congregations, the healings vanished into thin air. (More details? PM me).
I do not say that God does not heal in such cases. He can. But my concern is that we often miss the real reasons to thank him(in the everyday) as the hype in the spectacular takes over.
As a result I'm in the "prove it" class. If it's of God it will stand up to testing and proof - if it isn't, it will be shown up for what it is or it will seem as if someone has over egged the omelette out of enthusiam or naivete. If it's a medical thing then a simple before and after is enough: if it's non organic then the external testimony of a reliable person is helpful. (That seems to happen in a lot of cases where Jesus healed - people could see the before and after).
We are urged to test in at least 2 places in the NT and given the example of those who do just that in a 3rd passage (the Bereans). Testing doesn't have to last forever but it should be rigourous and clear. Why not use it and make the healing verifiable?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?
There has been no answer.
Hang on a minute.
Several shippies have stated quite clearly what would help, namely first-hand testimonies backed up by a doctor's report regarding the pre-existing illness, and another report covering the state of the patient post-healing.
To say there's been no answer is to grossly misrepresent the content of the thread.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....
This is true, but it is hardly prescriptive. And I somehow don't think it is going to be a valid excuse on the final day for not carrying out basic due diligence.
Once again, the issue is not the existence of imperfections but what sort of imperfections they are with regard to the responsibilities being shouldered, and what is done when they come to light.
In other news, here's a quote from a friend of mine who went to Cwmbran last week and mentioned it during his Sunday sermon:
quote:
I don't know if anyone was healed, there weren't any testimonies afterwards, but you could see that things were happening all around.
[ 21. May 2013, 17:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
I don't know who the chap is leading tonight - I hadn't seen one of these meetings from the start so thought I ought to be fair and take in context.
Leader has listed a range of testimonies of alleged healings from last night, and the invitation to prayer is definitely healing focused, and healing in the physical body - by his stripes etc.
An invitation to get closer to God and healings as a side effect but not hyped or almost promised I would feel happier with.
Just posted a blog on my dream/vision of the Spirit filled church....
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....
God uses all sorts of means - that is not necessarily an endorsement of any of them.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
God doesn't NOT use broken vessels. God is no less in Syria than in Cwmbran.
I said 'Measurably' anadromously. In answer to the OP. As Exclamation Mark asked and Karl Liberal Backslider said it's too soon to say. As I said on the Catching the Spirit thread - it is MEASURABLE. A revival of kindness, of generosity, of patience, of humility, of soundness, of wise counsel, of fidelity would be measurable.
Soon.
Social justice is measurable. The Kingdom breaking in to the present will be tangible, observable, visible, would make a difference.
The same old delusion won't.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Here is how they view plagiarism in the Episcopal church in the US.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....
God uses all sorts of means - that is not necessarily an endorsement of any of them.
True. David's adultery was still sinful, despite the other things he did that pleased God.
As for miracles of physical healing, I feel that such things are probably not really meant for First World Christians now. Despite the ongoing reality of long-term diseases and pain, our needs as a whole seem to lie primarily elsewhere.
This thought was brought home to me on Sunday. I'd decided to attend a Catholic church on the other side of town, since my father frequently takes a couple worshippers up there in his car. It was interesting to listen to one of these people talking about her many visits to Lourdes, and I was surprised when I realised that her visits had nothing to do with 'healing', which I'd always assumed was the main purpose of Lourdes. For the frequent travellers of her congregation these visits seemed to serve other, less tangible aims.
Maybe it's also the case that 'healing' services in some Western revivalist Protestant churches have now become attractive for reasons other than physical healing, even though an aura of potential miracles may be what initially gives these services their spiritual potency and appeal. This must be why people still attend such services, despite the lack of respectable, scientific and indeed secular proof that anything special is happening.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
Tonight Pastor Robbie Howells of Newport City Church leading.
Gave testimony, call to faith, then all about how he had a vision that 2013 would be a year of outpouring. Talking up faith and said -
quote:
God is not moved by your need but by your faith
Repeats several times, that our faith releases God's signs and wonders etc, only by faith.
And that those who believe will do more than Jesus.
Earlier said that Jesus healed all he came in touch with - what about everyone else at the pool of Bethesda? And other people holding funerals other than the widow of Nain? (Jairus' family didn't quite reach that planning stage!)
'preaching' consists of lists of proof texts until now.
That some need to get rid of friends whose doubts are stopping you coming to get your miracle (Woman touching hem, with problem for 12 years - need to change routine and thinking)
Need to fast as well as pray if praying not enough.
God wants to release signs, wonders, harvest and provision in 2013 but we have to change and have faith.
Only a few at front 'how desperate are you?' big push to get more forward - to Christians for change in their churches etc.
Now i know that the ship has a wide range but the idea that Jesus healed all he met is to me bad reading of the text.
And as for the idea that God is not moved by need but only faith.... yurgh, that is not the God i know or would want to know.
I believe in a God who is with me in the depths even in the places where my faith is weak or faded.
God can meet people even when the theology isn't perfect (just as well as none of us can figure out God) but I certainly won't recommend this man's teaching to anyone.
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
From Avila's reports, it looks like there's an imbalanced emphasis on what you have to do (believe, have faith whatever) before God will heal you.
I thought this whole idea of works went out the window with the reformation for us protestants?
Where's God grace in all this? Where's the recognition of His sovereign power to act as He wills, not as we demand?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
|
Posted
The oldest tricks in the world get reinvented with new twists, new expressions, new gimmicks. Unfortunately, having been in the charismatic scene for years and years, the more and more I read and understand, the more I realise it's becoming the same thing here. From Peter Popoff with his wife giving him words of knowledge through an ear piece, to Benny Hinn wheeling people with back pain up to the front in wheelchairs, it just all starts to stink. Sadder still is when people you know and trust get drawn in, because they want to believe in God doing this stuff; you could say it's an audience with the ultimate propensity for suggestion.
Posts: 94 | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's God grace in all this? Where's the recognition of His sovereign power to act as He wills, not as we demand?
Blown away on the fuzzy winds of fluffy, sugary charismaticism, with a healthy order of legalism and guilt-tripping on top. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
This kind of carry-on could convert me to cessationism. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
When Jesus healed, the evidence was indisputable, despite the efforts of the religious establishment to trip Him up. INDISPUTABLE. Instantaneous healings. Of blindness, deafness, lameness, epilepsy, a serious menstrual disorder, possession by an evil spirit/mental illness ... raising people from the dead. No ambiguity, no messing.
I am open to the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't doubt that actually He can and DOES heal today.
But I see more of His 'anointing' (to use a popular charismatic buzzword, although it actually has respectable biblical credentials, despite the abuse of the word) on the life of someone like Joni Eareckson Tada, who has remained a radiant witness to Christ in her 40 difficult years of being a quadriplegic.
God is with us in the pain and the crap. That is just as powerful.
--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's God grace in all this? Where's the recognition of His sovereign power to act as He wills, not as we demand?
Blown away on the fuzzy winds of fluffy, sugary charismaticism, with a healthy order of legalism and guilt-tripping on top.
This kind of carry-on could convert me to cessationism.
When Jesus healed, the evidence was indisputable, despite the efforts of the religious establishment to trip Him up. INDISPUTABLE. Instantaneous healings. Of blindness, deafness, lameness, epilepsy, a serious menstrual disorder, possession by an evil spirit/mental illness ... raising people from the dead. No ambiguity, no messing.
I am open to the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't doubt that actually He can and DOES heal today.
But I see more of His 'anointing' (to use a popular charismatic buzzword, although it actually has respectable biblical credentials, despite the abuse of the word) on the life of someone like Joni Eareckson Tada, who has remained a radiant witness to Christ in her 40 difficult years of being a quadriplegic.
God is with us in the pain and the crap. That is just as powerful.
I couldn't agree more with what you have said -- it's right on the button. If only those poeddling some of this rubbish could see it all with the benefit of hindsight .... or better still some real discernment and wisdom on the ground today.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Tonight Pastor Robbie Howells of Newport City Church leading.
Gave testimony, call to faith, then all about how he had a vision that 2013 would be a year of outpouring. Talking up faith and said -
quote:
God is not moved by your need but by your faith
Repeats several times, that our faith releases God's signs and wonders etc, only by faith.
And that those who believe will do more than Jesus.
This is word-faith/Bill Johnson stuff, straight from the tin. I think it's a nonsensical position to argue that faith increases your magic powers or that faith increases God's willingness/ability to either perform magic or bestow magical powers on you. I can't believe that people are still selling this line and am even more surprised that others are buying it.
How sad this all is!
:-(
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
God is not mocked guys.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clodsley Shovel
Apprentice
# 16662
|
Posted
I just watched the end of tonights 'show' whilst the guy attempted to whip up the crowd, someone was gently playing a few piano chords as he spoke, he then sidetracked into how churches would be full to bursting if Christians weren't critical of each other (read: him).
I really can't be doing with this gently playing minor chords whilst someone speaks/prays/encourages/bullies people to make a decision and raise their hands, I cant imagine for a moment its a device Jesus would have employed while he spoke, its manipulative.
Posts: 41 | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel:
I really can't be doing with this gently playing minor chords whilst someone speaks/prays/encourages/bullies people to make a decision and raise their hands, I cant imagine for a moment its a device Jesus would have employed while he spoke, its manipulative.
Hear hear. Whatever benefit there might be, in terms of creating a reverent, expectant mood, is far outweighed IMO by the risk of emotionally manipulating people into going along with it all.
Mind you, you get soft music playing in the background at many other charismatic church services, conferences etc.; in addition, other church styles have their own mood-setting / manipulation techniques, don't they? I don't think it's anything unique to Cwmbran specifically or to charismatic Christian practice generally.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I don't think it's anything unique to Cwmbran specifically or to charismatic Christian practice generally.
Or indeed Christian practice. Chris Potter does a pretty emotional rendering of "Just as I am"
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
quote:
Mind you, you get soft music playing in the background at many other charismatic church services, conferences etc.; in addition, other church styles have their own mood-setting / manipulation techniques, don't they?
I think there is an important line between creating an atmosphere (of whatever style)which facilitates people in experiencing/ connecting with God and manipulation.
Music and lyrics,artefacts etc all help with creating that atmosphere and they also encourage a holistic response which includes the emotions. It becomes manipulative when we add our voices to the voice of God speaking to the hearts of individuals. I've always been uncomfortable with preaching which seems to need the validation of responses.
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I think there is an important line between creating an atmosphere (of whatever style)which facilitates people in experiencing/ connecting with God and manipulation.
Oh yes, I agree. It's just that line is important, but rather fuzzy IMO! One person's reverential atmosphere is another's psychological manipulation technique...
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I think there is an important line between creating an atmosphere (of whatever style)which facilitates people in experiencing/ connecting with God and manipulation.
Oh yes, I agree. It's just that line is important, but rather fuzzy IMO! One person's reverential atmosphere is another's psychological manipulation technique...
It's tricky, isn't it?!
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
|
Posted
Total Edit Oops posted in wrong thread. Too many windows open
On this thread I was going to say:
I have been reflecting on all of this and now wonder if the the church hasn't got the wrong end of the stick on this one. What if these signs and wonders and healings are for our private needs and not for public consumption?
There were a number of times when Jesus told people he healed not to tell anyone else. The result fuss, hype and demands of proof would be an obstruction to his ministry. And in these times his Church.
So, regardless of whether the revival claims are for real or not, Ian observer may have concerns about the way this is all be presented by the church leaders.
TM
[ 23. May 2013, 09:17: Message edited by: The Midge ]
--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
