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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Revival in Cwmbran?
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GreyBeard
Apprentice
# 113
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Posted
Does anyone know what's going on in Cwmbran, Wales, at Victory Church?
www.victorychurch.co.uk
GB
[ 27. December 2014, 22:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 30 | From: Lancaster, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
In the most recent 'Outpouring Update', I found the comment about the ability to be anonymous very interesting, particularly in the light of discussions on cathedral worship in Ecclesiantics. Perhaps God is getting charismatics to use a cathedral model? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Llareggub?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Had me going there, for a mo, Martin - just about everything round here starts with a double 'L' ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess what's going on in Cwmbran depends on who's telling the story. If I could offer a composite picture based on what I've heard, I'd say it is a sovereign move of the Almighty God. This sovereign move is characterised by hype, people getting pushed-over, uncontrolled and uninterpreted tongues, authority-claiming and devil-rebuking...not to mention vomit-inducing self-indulgence - masquerading as spirituality.
It is attended by those who feel called to experience more of the Holy Spirit, or perhaps those who are manifestation junkies, or even people who are desperate to pick up a 'transferable anointing' to impress the folks back home. Take your pick.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
It's not often anything exciting happens in Cwmbran. Not since a team from my old school won Robot Wars with 'Panic Attack' anyway.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
From the link, I did love the 'Every Night @ 7pm'.
Good to know that God the Holy Spirit keeps to a rigid timetable, and doesn't blow where she listeth.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Clodsley Shovel
Apprentice
# 16662
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Posted
From checking out some of the twitterings about it it seems they're all jolly excited about it. I've also read a few tweets bemoaning others from local churches who won't get involved, using phrases like 'damp squib' to describe their congregations.
I shouldn't be so cynical but It's not improbable that those 'damp squibs' will still be there long after this is all forgotten, the race not being to the swift etc.
Posts: 41 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Like Gill H, I grew up in Cwmbran. It was once described as the most boring town in Wales (if not the UK).
Not much happens there. It has a fine sports stadium though, and, by-and-large, better housing stock than is available further west in the old coal-mining Valleys.
Cwmbran is in the Eastern Valley - the most easterly of the valleys, is effectively where the Valleys meet the rolling, more pastoral hills of mid-Gwent. We used to walk miles as kids. We needed to. We wanted to get away ...
It was a collection of around five industrial villages and scattered hamlets until they effectively swamped it with a New Town from the '50s onwards. It always had lighter industries than the mining towns - aluminium, tin-plate, brick-works, then brakes and valves and components.
I don't go back very often - our Mam now lives in a village a few miles out - but I do get the 'hiraeth' for South Wales in general rather than Cwmbran in particular. The scenery around can be spectacular if you know where to look, but the town itself is a dump. The shopping centre seems to be doing better than it was, mind. Free parking.
There are lots of council estates, or former council estates and not much else. So I'm not surprised to find that Victory Church are strutting their stuff there. It's the sort of place where this sort of thing happens. All the ingredients are there.
The area was affected by the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 - I knew people whose parents had been converted at that time. There were around 60 baptisms up at one of the Baptist churches in Pontnewydd at that time.
There were a lot of Baptist churches around. The Penties were quite active too - there were three Pentie churches when I lived there.
From what I can gather, some of the Baptist churches are doing ok but others are struggling. The Anglicans have always had low-ish numbers, the Sally Army has done well at times ... but overall, church attendance if pretty low.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that a lot of the people at these Victory Church meetings are bussed in from elsewhere or are current members of the network who drive in for a piece of the action.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if a few kids from off the estates are getting caught up in the enthusiasm.
As for what's happening -- come back and ask in six months time when we can see whether anything more has been achieved beyond a temporary buzz.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for what's happening -- come back and ask in six months time when we can see whether anything more has been achieved beyond a temporary buzz.
Oh yes, what a good test this is. Much of what get labelled in my broader church circles as mighty acts of God does seem to fizzle out without producing much lasting fruit. I'm all in favour of praise, liturgy etc. engaging our emotions and our bodies but revival is about so much more than shaking, falling over, speaking in tongues and so on (though I do think all those things can be visible signs of God being at work in people).
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - will people's lives be transformed for the better, will people begin following Jesus, will people submit more parts of their lives to God's ways? I hope so.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - will people's lives be transformed for the better, will people begin following Jesus, will people submit more parts of their lives to God's ways? I hope so.
And will they take their spiritual blessings out into the world, and into new and established churches, in order to bring blessings to them too? Or is it all about this place, this time, this leadership, these personalities?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Their publicity echoes that of the charlatans at Bethel Church in California ('When God Shows Up').
Who needs theology?
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Indeed, Adeodatus. I did have a quick look at the website and noted that, while some pages started by saying it's all about God and not at all about the human personalities, the pastor's name and face were quite prominent on the website. That bugs me. And there's a lot of 'Come to us! Experience what God is doing among us!' The specific place and personalities do seem quite important to them... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Ah, yes, the post-Reformation need for charismatics to have a place of pilgrimage...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Yes, I must say I was particularly impressed by the news item that said (in paraphrase) "it's about God, not personalities - which is why we're bussing in a big-name preacher from elsewhere to give the Pastor a week off!".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh no, not again.
For those of us old enough to remember the Toronto Blessing, this looks very similar (you have to bear in mind that the TB was now nearly 20 years ago. A whole new generation has grown up since then!).
I can't bring myself to dismiss everything I experienced in the TB and when I visited the church in 2005, long after it had all died down, I was surprised to find a fairly mainstream charismatic church with a genuine presence in the city (but a loony evening speaker).
However, I no longer believe the TB was as spontaneous as claimed, and neither do I think this is. There is theological and ecclesiological baggage there that predisposes for this, and some of it is really wonky.
In addition, I'm a bit alarmed by the pastor's biography. 'Damascus road' turnarounds of that nature aren't impossible, but I think the claims call for some close scrutiny.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well that didn't take long.
I'm calling the pastor out as a plagiarist right now.
Evidence is on his blog.
Text of the blogpost dated February 14, 2013 has been on the internet since at least a year earlier. It's lifted wholesale without attribution.
Text of the blogpost dated February 7, 2013 has been on the internet since at least two years earlier.
Both of the blogposts contain word-for-word copy/pasting and are unattributed.
I haven't checked any further, but I think that tells you all you need to know.
Now who wants to do something about it?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Surprise, surprise, surprise... Zzzzzz. Again and again and again. Well spotted though E!
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The thing is, is Zzzz enough?
The reason I got onto this so fast is because I knew what to look for from another similar case.
Somehow, somewhere, there needs to be a wake-up call for people to check out the basic credentials of church leaders and other high-profile christian figures, across the board. In the US at least, I understant plagiarism is usually grounds for dismissal of a pastor.
[ 10. May 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Such as?
I'm not sure pointing it out would do any more than convince them that there are 'damp-squibs' and enemies of revival out to dampen the enthusiasm and 'quench the Spirit'.
These things tend to fizzle out soon enough - but they can cause collateral damage.
I think those outfits that survived and thrived following the Toronto thing are those that would have done so 'Blessing' or no 'Blessing'.
I think one of the things that is easily overlooked - and I know I'm often among the first to criticise - is that places like this DO attract some pretty good people who have the stickability to stay the course.
When I look back at the uber-charismatic fellowship I belonged to for 18 years, it's with some admiration for those who have stayed the course through thick and thin. We do need to factor that in, however misguided we believe much of it to be.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think that a minimum of integrity is a basic requisite for a christian leader.
I have absolutely no truck whatsoever with the argument that we should turn a blind eye to shortcomings "because of all the good that's come out of it".
I think plagiarism of that nature is not a minor shortcoming, either. It raises fundamental questions about ethics and integrity and should alert any responsible trustees to the need to check other aspects and credentials further.
How the person in question deals with the exposure of such shortcomings is probably going to tell you a lot more about their suitability for the ministry, too.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
These things tend to fizzle out soon enough
Sorry, missed this point.
I have little doubt that the demise of Todd Bentley's Lakeland Revival was largely due to ABC's investigation that demonstrated they had no proof whatsoever of any of their healing testimonies. It came to an end because somebody decided to investigate - it didn't just fizzle out of its own accord.
As to "soon enough", I'm investigating someone else who has been getting away with this kind of thing for a decade - and won awards for a 'true story' that, in addition to containing plagiarism, appears to be largely fiction. The longer you leave it, the harder it becomes to confront the appalling truth, because well-meaning people have so much emotional and spiritual capital invested in it.
[ 10. May 2013, 12:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Eutychus,
These sorts of people prey on those who are prone to, among other things, wishful thinking. Form that point it is very easy to overlook almost anything.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, spot on. He's passing something off as his own that isn't. Why should you trust anything else that he says? This kind of dishonesty- and by the way it's stupid, pointless dishonesty, because he could perfectly easily say 'here's something interesting I read on INSERTNAME's blog', and no-one would think any the worse of him- fatally and quite rightly undernmines his credibility and marks him out as a charlatan,
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm calling the pastor out as a plagiarist right now.
Oh dear It's especially sad coming from a guy who (he says) is a 'bible teacher... and Principal of Victory Academy which teaches theology and leadership' (from the header of his blog).
My guess is Gamaliel is right, and any complaint from some keyboard warrior on the internet (i.e. us lot!) won't be heeded. Maybe there's a Shipmate or reader who has some kind of link with Victory Church and fancies having a quiet word in the ear of someone there...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Euty, It's just a blog post - keep it in perspective. Normally blogs are places where people put up random thoughts, stuff they found on the internet that's good, smatterings of prayers, hymns, videos etc. I agree, it would be better if he attributed it, but in my experience people tend not to attribute stuff on blogs; they just post them up in a hurry. It would be different if his blog stated that all posts were his own work and musings, which in this case I don't think he does. Plus, some people do have 'Damascus Road' experiences - genuinely so. Shame the Lord didn't make his Cheech and Chong tat disappear on conversion though ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
any complaint from some keyboard warrior on the internet (i.e. us lot!) won't be heeded.
That's true, but it doesn't mean nothing can be done.
I can't say much more about the other investigation I'm involved in right now, but it's been carried out by a whole bunch of us who basically were nothing more than keyboard warriors to start with. It's taken several years and thousands of hours' worth of research, is a story in its own right, and yes there is an element of risk involved.
I'm fairly confident though that ultimately, perhaps quite soon now, something is going to be done and it's going to get the coverage it deserves. Watch this space.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Folks, it's just another con—move along… The only surprising thing is how much people are willing to invest in each and every one of these circus shows, learning nothing, it seems, from the previous 50 or so similar experiences.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Bloody hell! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"
Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?
Nah. Life's too short...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!
Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"
Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?
Nah. Life's too short...
Feeling persecuted again are we?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!
Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"
This is unfair, EE. Why don't you assume good faith on the part of people criticising Victory Church, at least when we're highlighting specific points like the unattributed copying on the blog or the focus on personalities. Those things concern me and I'm surprised they don't (it seems) concern you.
For my part, I'm trying to assume good faith on the part of those at Victory Church. I should think they are doing what they feel God wants them to do. But I - and others here - have specific concerns and we're raising them. Likewise, if you have concerns about the practices of certain other churches, you're welcome to raise them here too. And I'll probably join in with some of your concerns!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Euty, It's just a blog post - keep it in perspective. Normally blogs are places where people put up random thoughts, stuff they found on the internet that's good, smatterings of prayers, hymns, videos etc.
I disagree. It's his blog in his capacity as a pastor.
It's also what other leaders use to decide whether he's credible: quote:
Before coming I checked out their website and took some time to look at founding pastor Richard Taylor’s blog as I often find that the books or websites they recommend gives me a good and quick take on their theology and helps me understand where they are coming from and heading to.
This is how upstanding, honest people get drawn in. They rely on information they take at face value. Since it comes from a supposedly "christian" source they assume it is true and honestly presented.
Here, at least some of that information is clearly and unequivocally copy/pasted and unattributed. That has to raise questions about the pastor's professional ethics.
If I were a trustee of that church, discovering something like that would raise all sorts of red flags. Perhaps not a red card, but certainly cause to dig a little further.
The first thing I would do would be to establish whether the publisher had done due diligence on his biography (you might think that goes without saying, but I could give the names of two christian publishers, one a huge one, that utterly failed to do so in the case I'm investigating. Their due diligence essentially consisted in nothing more than the process conducted by the blogger quoted above). Maybe they have and maybe it all checks out - I don't know. But that's the next thing I'd do.
In addition, how the pastor responds to anyone confronting him with my little discovery would tell you a lot, too.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!
Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"
Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?
As far as I'm concerned you can apply it to anyone you like. Among the list you cite, I identify most closely to evangelical.
I didn't "do my utmost". I came in with as open a mind as I could muster, found his blog, smelled a rat, Googled, found an immediate hit for the first post I read, so tried on the second one, immediate hit again. I've documented it all, got screenshots (in case he takes it down) and saved it. All of that took me less than five minutes.
Do you or do you not agree that the material presented on Taylor's blog as if it were his own is demonstrably plagiarised? I don't care if he is a Moonie or a Divine Light Missionary, is it plagiarised? Why should his claim to be evangelical make him subject to immunity from the most basic of professional ethics?
[ 10. May 2013, 12:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!
Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"
Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?
Nah. Life's too short...
What I've learnt is that on this messagboard it's bad form to kick a dog while he's down. Rigorous criticism is mostly reserved for churches that appear to be or that claim to be growing in a noticeable way. Of course, this place in Cwmbran may well deserve a whole lot of criticism, but the general point still stands.
To enjoy posting here it's necessary to accept this tendency rather than getting frustrated about it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Eutychus -
OK, so he's plagiarised some content for his blog. His bad.
But it doesn't necessarily mean that his ministry is dodgy. God, after all, uses damaged goods (it's called 'grace' and it's messy).
If he is a man of God (and I will give him the benefit of the doubt, until such time as I have sufficient evidence to think otherwise), then all it needs is someone to tell him that he has made a mistake. And I am sure he will respond as moral necessity dictates.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Well, going by the pastor's blog he's a fan of Mark Driscoll which is suspicious enough for me!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais
Feeling persecuted again are we?
Not sure how to answer that, given that I am not a member of said church, have nothing to do with it, or even necessarily agree with what's going on.
Perhaps the term 'persecuted' has shifted in meaning? Pray, do enlighten me.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm sorry, SvitlanaV2, but I have to disagree. I don't think we tend to pile on anything that is apparently growing and successful whilst ignoring those churches which are struggling ...
I'd add, I'm afraid, that if you'd had any exposure/experience of churches like this - and yes, I know your family are Pentecostals but we're talking about Pentecostalism Plus in this instance - you'd have a similar reaction to how Eutychus and others are responding.
South Coast Kevin is a committed charismatic and he has reservations too - based on reactions to the way things are worded on their website etc - which are generally pretty good clues in my experience.
I'm sorry, but this Cwmbran business just has 'uh-oh' written all over it. I think Eutychus is onto something. To be honest, I've a great deal of time and respect for Eutychus's investigative abilities. Perhaps there's a career there for you, Eutychus, as a debunker of religious chicanery?
I'm sorry, but this has all the hallmarks of yet another nine-day wonder with over-extravagant claims and unsubstantiated testimonies and so on. The same old, same old.
If you want to know why Eutychus and others react like that it's because we've seen it, done it, been up close and involved with this sort of thing.
And at the same time, my opinion of EE's discernment abilities is beginning to wane even more dramatically ... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
I didn't say that nobody had the right to criticise this church. Indeed, I said that this church may well deserve criticism - and that's what it's getting, from people who've studied the website and the minister's credentials more closely than I have.
Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Gamaliel -
Making a judgement based on 'experience'!!!
Naughty naughty! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Eutychus -
OK, so he's plagiarised some content for his blog. His bad.
But it doesn't necessarily mean that his ministry is dodgy. God, after all, uses damaged goods (it's called 'grace' and it's messy).
If he is a man of God (and I will give him the benefit of the doubt, until such time as I have sufficient evidence to think otherwise), then all it needs is someone to tell him that he has made a mistake. And I am sure he will respond as moral necessity dictates.
Let's hope we find out. After tracking down a trustee of the church and speaking to him on his mobile, I've just sent the trustee this (letter slightly anonymised for the purposes of the Ship).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Sing it, brother!
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair do's, SvitlanaV2, but I suspect that more mainstream churches don't come in for as much stick here as they don't tend to embark on things that are likely to cause as much harm.
Of course, one could criticise them for inertia or whatever else.
But I'm not sure having a stack of people together for a revivalist gathering is that much of an achievement in and of itself.
Some groups appear able to sustain things over time, but they generally tone things down longer term. The traditional, old-time Pentecostals certainly have. It's long been observed that these things happen cyclically in Pentecostal/charismatic settings ... there'll be a bit of an upheaval followed by a period of consolidation, followed by another upheaval, followed by consolidation ...
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying how it works.
There's also the issue that some of us have been bitten on the bum by groups like this. I don't see many people here nursing wounds and bruises inflicted by the Methodists, URCs or other less exotic groups.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Very well done, Eutychus. I pray for God's blessing on your efforts, and hope the plagiarism is indeed an honest mistake. I think what you said upthread about how people respond to criticism was spot-on.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Casineb
Apprentice
# 15588
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Posted
Not only has he plagiarised those posts in his blog, but he's actually combed through them and tweaked sentences, attempting to pass it off as his own work.
I think that shows a greater level of deceitfulness than quickly copy-and-pasting a post he come about, and maybe absent-mindedly forgetting to attribute it.
For a leader who seems to present himself as a teacher, that's really poor behaviour IMO.
Posts: 25 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Apr 2010
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Casineb
Apprentice
# 15588
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Posted
I personally am wary about these kind of revivals, but I still have hope that many of the outsiders who are drawn into these meetings will find Christ. I just fear for the collateral damage that may ensue for others, and possibly put them off Christianity all together.
Posts: 25 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Apr 2010
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Please let us know when the gold fillings start appearing--that's the surest sign of a True Revival.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
These things tend to fizzle out soon enough
Sorry, missed this point.
I have little doubt that the demise of Todd Bentley's Lakeland Revival was largely due to ABC's investigation that demonstrated they had no proof whatsoever of any of their healing testimonies. It came to an end because somebody decided to investigate - it didn't just fizzle out of its own accord.
Wasn't it also to do with his Ugandan discussions?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Clodsley Shovel
Apprentice
# 16662
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Posted
You'd have thought of the alleged 9000 people who've been through their doors in the lst few weeks (I bet most are the same few hundred faces night after night) someone would have smelled a rat. Good spot though Eutycus. Be interesting to hear the response, an immediate retraction and apology would be refreshing.
Posts: 41 | Registered: Sep 2011
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