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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I have never feared hanging with my friends. But I think one qualitative difference between women's fear of blind dates and men's fear of other men is that men's violence against men does not, in general, stem from men who hate the male sex, while men's violent women apparently does stem, at least in some cases and I'm betting it's many, from hatred of women.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Had another thought about this. When I made a foray into online dating last fall, I let a friend know when I was meeting someone in the flesh, and during the date she texted me a couple of times to make sure all was well. This is not something the man felt he had to do. IngoB seemed to kind of brush by this kind of thing by calling it "the sexual angle" or something like that, but it's extremely important. Straight men don't in general have to think about ways to distinguish the axe-murderers and rapists from the nice women they'd actually want to date. One comic put it this way -- on blind dates, men worry that the women they meet might be fatter than their profile pictures, but women worry that the men they meet might kill them.
I simply pointed out that while male violence makes dating dangerous for women, male violence makes hanging out with their peers dangerous for men. This does not deny what is happening to women, it points out that it is not as unique as you think it is. Yes, that man didn't have to send text messages. But you probably never worried about running into a rival group of girls alone, because they would hunt you down and beat you up. You probably never watched carefully the angry, drunk woman at the bar, because it was clear that she was soon going to accost another woman to demonstrate her womanhood. You probably never had to wrestle down a girl to establish your position in your girl peer group. You probably never got invited to step outside by another woman, settling some perceived score in front of a cheering crowd of women. Etc.
My point is quite simply that men know male violence. Yes, not in the way you do. But still, if you want to engage men for your cause, then just maybe you could start more from where they are at, rather than demanding that they jump over this instance to where you are at?
Women face all of that in many communities as well. A rival group shows up at a party looking to fight, another owns the bathroom on the second floor at school so you need to go to the first floor, they hold a grudge about something in the lunch room and you walk home terrified that a car full will catch you unaware, call you out at the club because they think you're looking at a guy that belongs to them (he was looking at you) and wait outside for you and your friends to leave, I have had an earring ripped completely through the lobe, had my nose broken on a bathroom sink, been bitten through the hand requiring stitches and a tetanus shot. Girls fight plenty whether they want to or not.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Humans are violent and terratorial and power- hungry. We teach girls they need to sublinste these traits, we teach boys they are vital to manhood.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
"Sublimate" , sorry. ( I' m trying to break myself of the habit if abusing my edit window. No more typo hiding. )
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Humans are violent and territorial and power-hungry. We teach girls they need to sublimate these traits; we teach boys they are vital to manhood.
This.
ETA: I, however, am not averse to covering my tracks.
[ 31. May 2014, 17:10: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
On violence. Yeah, males tend to violence more than females, but as has been illustrated, not as much more as often portrayed.
I've experienced altercations with both sexes, mostly in youth. I've had the joy of walking home with the fear of being followed and beaten. I've been punched full in the face by a man 6'+ and 16 stone. And I could add to the list.
I can tell you this: the fear and the aftermath of physical violence is not the same as sexual assault. Not even fearing for one's life is the same.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So, Josephine, the point is that comparing myself to other men wasn't a matter of confirmation bias. It was very simply that by my 25th birthday I had never had a single, solitary, date. Not even a failed one.
I understand that. But if you do a little bit of googling, you'll find a fair number of essays by people who had their first date at age 23, 24, 33 ... I couldn't find any stats on percentages of people who have their first date at what what ages, but I think that not having a date until you're well grown is not all that rare.
quote:
That was not normal. That is what can fuck a person up. That was my point.
Maybe what's fucking the person up is believing that their situation is a lot more abnormal than it really is.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But you probably never worried about running into a rival group of girls alone, because they would hunt you down and beat you up. You probably never watched carefully the angry, drunk woman at the bar, because it was clear that she was soon going to accost another woman to demonstrate her womanhood. You probably never had to wrestle down a girl to establish your position in your girl peer group. You probably never got invited to step outside by another woman, settling some perceived score in front of a cheering crowd of women. Etc.
it's not nearly as common as happens to men, but yes, I've been in these positions. With you guys, it's across most if not all socio-economic strata, and lasts well into your 20s (30s if you hang with the wrong crowd) where, in my experience, it's much more of an adolescence and/or economically downtrodden issue, but it's there. I once got punched so hard I blacked out for an unknown amount of time and woke up in the snow in the dark, cold as hell. and this was a group of girls who decided they hated my group of girls. Why? I've never been sure. I hung with a pretty tough little crowd, though. I was the smallest and the only white girl. my friends told me not to venture out alone, but I was a bit of a stubborn twit with a far too high opinion of her own abilities.
I have also been knocked down twice just because some girl's boyfriend thought I was cute.
All that being said, though - it's relatively rare compared to the violence boys and young men face. plus I have a ferocious mouth and can usually get myself out of harm's way with the proper roaring and belittling. Works fairly well on men, too, though I know better than to push my luck, there. I usually have some big strong dude standing behind me for insurance.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
My point is quite simply that men know male violence. Yes, not in the way you do. But still, if you want to engage men for your cause, then just maybe you could start more from where they are at, rather than demanding that they jump over this instance to where you are at?
I agree with this, in that it makes a ton of sense to start the conversation on whatever shaky common ground we can find. screaming "you'll never understand!" pretty much guarantees no one will even try.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I simply pointed out that while male violence makes dating dangerous for women, male violence makes hanging out with their peers dangerous for men. This does not deny what is happening to women, it points out that it is not as unique as you think it is. Yes, that man didn't have to send text messages. But you probably never worried about running into a rival group of girls alone, because they would hunt you down and beat you up. You probably never watched carefully the angry, drunk woman at the bar, because it was clear that she was soon going to accost another woman to demonstrate her womanhood. You probably never had to wrestle down a girl to establish your position in your girl peer group. You probably never got invited to step outside by another woman, settling some perceived score in front of a cheering crowd of women. Etc.
My point is quite simply that men know male violence. Yes, not in the way you do. But still, if you want to engage men for your cause, then just maybe you could start more from where they are at, rather than demanding that they jump over this instance to where you are at?
I don't recall demanding anything. All I'm doing here is relating my experience. And I thank you for relating yours; it's interesting and even enlightening to hear about male violence from a male point of view. Why can't you just take a turn at sitting and listening and absorbing what women are saying? After all, it's not as if you are starting from where women are in talking about your experiences as a man.
No, I don't in general have to fear violence from my female peers, but that's a function of my socioeconomic class, my neighborhood, and the choices I'm able to make about who I associate with. A few years ago in broad daylight out front of the church where I work a drunk came up behind me and punched me at the base of the skull -- it was a woman. If I lived in that neighborhood, I'd be very careful about being near almost as many of the women there as the men. I've been catcalled, threatened and groped countless times by men, but only randomly assaulted that one time by a woman.
There is, I think, one unique thing about straight women's experience of male violence that is very important, which is why I keep going on and on about it: the fear of male violence is tied up with our process of choosing a mate, one of the most important things people do. This makes our lives very different from straight men's lives, and it colors our relationships with men in ways you'll probably only be able to imagine if you're willing to take the effort to do so instead of insisting that our experience isn't all that unique.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
My point is quite simply that men know male violence.
I must admit I have been surprised at the proportion of male posters on this thread who have experienced reasonably significant violence. So yes, you are probably right about that. HOWEVER, this:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
maybe you could start more from where they are at, rather than demanding that they jump over this instance to where you are at?
The whole point of feminism is not starting from where men are at, which is otherwise known as the default, the status quo, the way we've always done it, the way nature ordered things. It's about utilising a different lens to view the world. That doesn't mean erecting a barricade and saying 'because you men have a different viewpoint to ours, you can never truly understand us or join with us' - it means saying 'you must acknowledge that there is another viewpoint*, and that this is not merely a deviation from or a subset of, the default viewpoint.' It's a bit wearisome to hear 'why don't you start from where the men are at?' Starting from where men are at is what we all do, all the time, unless we are specifically opting to do something else.
*Not of, course, that there is a unitary voice within feminism, any more than there is a unitary voice in the prevailing culture.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never feared hanging with my friends. But I think one qualitative difference between women's fear of blind dates and men's fear of other men is that men's violence against men does not, in general, stem from men who hate the male sex, while men's violent women apparently does stem, at least in some cases and I'm betting it's many, from hatred of women.
Interesting point. While I don't think men's violence against men is fully individualised, the 'tribe' that might be targeted is inevitably smaller than the 'tribe' of 50% of the human race.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
There is, I think, one unique thing about straight women's experience of male violence that is very important, which is why I keep going on and on about it: the fear of male violence is tied up with our process of choosing a mate, one of the most important things people do. This makes our lives very different from straight men's lives, and it colors our relationships with men in ways you'll probably only be able to imagine if you're willing to take the effort to do so instead of insisting that our experience isn't all that unique.
Well, halfway through that paragraph I think you realised that straight women aren't unique in this regard (fearing male violence in the mating process), but it is certainly different to the straight male experience. And as an overall package I still wouldn't say the gay male experience is the same as the straight female one.
Interestingly, straight males committing violence against women never seem to have come up with an 'ugly woman propositioned me' defence as an equivalent to 'gay panic'. They justify it in different ways.
[ 01. June 2014, 00:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, halfway through that paragraph I think you realised that straight women aren't unique in this regard (fearing male violence in the mating process),
Actually, I learned that a long time ago, not all that long after moving to the very gay-friendly city I still live in. But I can see how the way I wrote would make you think that.
quote:
but it is certainly different to the straight male experience. And as an overall package I still wouldn't say the gay male experience is the same as the straight female one.
Well, it couldn't be, could it? You can fill in details if you want to, but the aspect of men dating men that has always struck me as trying would be knowing from the inside what men were looking for (or told by the culture they should be looking for) and knowing whether or not you even came close to being that or looking like that.
quote:
Interestingly, straight males committing violence against women never seem to have come up with an 'ugly woman propositioned me' defence as an equivalent to 'gay panic'. They justify it in different ways.
Those ways are similar to the "gay panic" defense in that they posit men as being unable to control their reactions. It's the gay guy's fault for hitting on a straight guy when he gets beat up, and it's the straight woman's fault for, well, whatever - wearing a short skirt, turning the guy down, you name it - when she gets beat up.
But the straight guys beating up gay guys around here haven't invoked the "gay panic" defense - they've seen people leaving gay bars or the gay and lesbian center and beaten them up on general principle.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Interesting to hear of serious physical fights between girls/women. That was pretty much unheard of where I come from...
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Why can't you just take a turn at sitting and listening and absorbing what women are saying? After all, it's not as if you are starting from where women are in talking about your experiences as a man.
For you to twist this around, there would have to be some serious injury women do to men, but also in a different way to other women, which many women are not keen to acknowledge as a female problem. At which point I indeed would want to hear how I could start from what women do to other women to make them aware of what they do to men.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
This makes our lives very different from straight men's lives, and it colors our relationships with men in ways you'll probably only be able to imagine if you're willing to take the effort to do so instead of insisting that our experience isn't all that unique.
As I've said from the start, how you experience male violence may be unique but not that you experience male violence. The latter could be used to your advantage, which has been my simple point.
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
The whole point of feminism is not starting from where men are at, which is otherwise known as the default, the status quo, the way we've always done it, the way nature ordered things. ... It's a bit wearisome to hear 'why don't you start from where the men are at?' Starting from where men are at is what we all do, all the time, unless we are specifically opting to do something else.
I've taken a problem, namely that you try to engage more men for your cause, and suggested a way forward, namely making men aware that this aligns with their own concerns. Perhaps this does not conform to some feminist ideal of what men ought to do. But I think it could contribute to actually changing the status quo.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
RuthW wrote: quote:
Those ways are similar to the "gay panic" defense in that they posit men as being unable to control their reactions. It's the gay guy's fault for hitting on a straight guy when he gets beat up, and it's the straight woman's fault for, well, whatever - wearing a short skirt, turning the guy down, you name it - when she gets beat up.
But the straight guys beating up gay guys around here haven't invoked the "gay panic" defense - they've seen people leaving gay bars or the gay and lesbian center and beaten them up on general principle.
Until this exchange, I had never heard of "gay panic" or its use as a defence. I've now looked it up and am wiser.
My understanding of most homophobic violence is the same as yours, Ruth, as described in your final paragraph. I guess, by the law of averages, most straight males will receive a misjudged gay proposition or two in their lives. I'm now in my mid-60s, and in all that time it's only happened to me twice. I found it mildly amusing, and the pickup attempter seemed to find it mildly embarrassing, on both occasions.
But I have been assaulted on a late night train when I lived in London. In an otherwise empty carriage, a guy approached me and suddenly grabbed me by the genitals. Hard. I remember that it was only by a considerable act of willpower that I held myself back from landing one on him. I was very, very angry. He then let go, ran off down the carriage, and as the train had been approaching the station, the doors opened and he shot off like greased lightning.
My question is, though, if I had punched him and damaged him, would that have been gay panic? I don't think so, but maybe some might. What if it had been a woman of similar build/strength? What would I have done? I'd rather not think about that, though I'm pretty sure that if she had been smaller than me I would have tried to push her away with some force.
My point about regaling you with this true anecdote is to ask that if something happens within a short period of time, how are we - basically as Kelly said, a violent species - conditioned to react? I'm damn sure that if I had been a woman I would have also been livid and also probably terrified. But I have no recollection of any terror at all.
I should also say that I have never beaten anyone up in my life. My strategy is to try and be far away from such scenarios that might test my limits. And that works well in the other direction as violence has never otherwise been visited on me either. But equally I will have my limits and that probably came as close to them as I ever want to be.
This thread should really be about the threat of violence against women, not men. I'm aware of that. But I offer this in case it helps understand a bit about the male psyche, assuming I am even remotely typical in some way, which of course I may not be.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Honest Ron Bacardi: quote:
My question is, though, if I had punched him and damaged him, would that have been gay panic?
Uh, no. IMO, that would have been you defending yourself against an assailant. If you had punched the guy who propositioned you, that would have been "gay panic".
BTW, I'm sorry you were assaulted. Horrible. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What she said. And a very thoughtful post, HRB.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Having said that, it's a matter of proportion, too. The guys who killed Matt Shepherd claimed he grabbed one of their crotches, too. Assuming that is true, if the guy in question had smacked him away or made him get out of their truck-- reasonable defensive reaction. They beat him into a coma and tied him to a fence in freezing weather, out of reach of help, and left him there to die. The defense invoked "gay panic" in this case.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Premeditated panic.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Mm- hm.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Although there is some question about how accurate the story we've been told is.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Although there is some question about how accurate the story we've been told is.
One, that does not make the defence of "gay panic" any more justified.
Two, regardless of what actually happened, that book appears more speculative than informative.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Although there is some question about how accurate the story we've been told is.
Oh! Well! In that case, tying another human being to a fence and leaving them to die is TOTALLY okay.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
saysay, I usually pride myself on trying to find the humanity in even the biggest assholes, but you sure make that difficult.
I don't care if the guy made a pass worthy of Steve Young. What those guys did to Shepherd made them subhuman.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
saysay: apologist for murder.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
This reaction to saysay is completely unwarranted by what s/he actually said. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
(Except for lilBuddha, that was a reasonable enough reply.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This reaction to saysay is completely unwarranted by what s/he actually said.
(Except for lilBuddha, that was a reasonable enough reply.)
I rather think the point of the reaction is that what saysay said is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Suppose any of that stuff is true: does that one case alter the general point about gay panic? Nope. Not one iota. Was there any reason to raise it except to diminish the legitimacy of gay fears about treatment at the hands of straight men? Nope.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I rather think the point of the reaction is that what saysay said is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Suppose any of that stuff is true: does that one case alter the general point about gay panic? Nope. Not one iota. Was there any reason to raise it except to diminish the legitimacy of gay fears about treatment at the hands of straight men? Nope.
Now, that is a reply I can understand. I don't agree with this response (if one uses a specific case to make a point, but the case turns out to be doubtful, then that is worth mentioning), but such disagreement is normal for discussions. Pretending that saysay has just justified a gruesome murder however is not, and in my opinion that sort of serious calumny does not belong even into Hell.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Thank you, IngoB.
Matthew Sheppard was being brought up as an example of the gay panic defense. My point was that he is a bad example; even wikipedia says that the defense was not allowed and the defendants later recanted their claim that they attacked him because he propositioned them.
I certainly was not trying to diminish the legitimacy of gay (man) fears at the hands of straight men. But if we want to attempt to improve things, it would probably help to know what problems we're dealing with. As has been said a million times, the fact that most men aren't violent rapists doesn't mean that women aren't justified in being cautious of men, particularly men they don't know (as it's not like the violent ones wear signs, although they do frequently give them). I'm sure that goes for gay men as well.
I do question how widespread the acceptance of gay panic as a legitimate cause for assault really is, just as I question how widespread the belief that a woman's clothing justifies any non-consensual touching (rather than sexual looking) is. In my experience if you want to change people's minds you have to engage with what they actually think, rather than what you think they must think because somebody somewhere thought it once.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Ok, thanks for the explanation, and sorry for the overreaction-- the Shepard case was really galvanizing for the American public.
As to the rest of you said, --people aren't reacting to what they think people think, they are reacting to what they actually wrote, as far as I can see. Of course I don't think all men think the way one particular guy does, but why can't I address that guy?
[ 03. June 2014, 04:10: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
To return to Elliot Rodger, I found this article interesting. I have not read My Twisted World (and do not intend to) but, if this is accurate, it adds another dimension to his self-hatred.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
What strikes me is that Rodger murdered the three men he lived with in a far more brutal way than he murdered the three women. He stabbed the men repeatedly, while he shot the women. The first man to die might not have seen what was coming, but the other two must have.
All the talk about white men is interesting because all three of the male victims were Asian.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What strikes me is that Rodger murdered the three men he lived with in a far more brutal way than he murdered the three women. He stabbed the men repeatedly, while he shot the women. The first man to die might not have seen what was coming, but the other two must have.
I'm not sure that I'd read too much in to that. The men were confined in the apartment, where using a knife was quieter and less distinctive than gunshots. The later victims were killed in the street, where a gun was the only practical choice of weapon.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What strikes me is that Rodger murdered the three men he lived with in a far more brutal way than he murdered the three women. He stabbed the men repeatedly, while he shot the women. The first man to die might not have seen what was coming, but the other two must have.
All the talk about white men is interesting because all three of the male victims were Asian.
Moo
There have even been suggestions that Rodger was concealing a homosexual tendency, so his attack on the men was much more physical and penetrative. That sounds improbable to me, but it's possible that his inner world was very complicated with regard to sex, gender and sexuality.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What strikes me is that Rodger murdered the three men he lived with in a far more brutal way than he murdered the three women. He stabbed the men repeatedly, while he shot the women. The first man to die might not have seen what was coming, but the other two must have.
Not by much, or they'd have run away.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quetzalcoatl wrote: quote:
There have even been suggestions that Rodger was concealing a homosexual tendency, so his attack on the men was much more physical and penetrative. That sounds improbable to me, but it's possible that his inner world was very complicated with regard to sex, gender and sexuality.
To be honest, I think his inner world was very complicated in every way - just having read a summary of his previous life and times.
I guess I have the same reservations about some of the ideas in the article that JoannaP linked to as I do about generalizing from this case. It's an interesting article and worth a read. But I don't think all violence can be reduced to a mantra of fear leading to hate leading to violence. There are other ways of getting to hate whilst bypassing fear. And in any event this was one seriously troubled person, and that's in addition to him being somewhere on the spectrum.
I see there's been something of a twitstorm in the US about all this. I don't want to repeat that, but it seems to me that whatever his diagnosis was (and severe personality disorders do seem to be involved), then assuming that factors such as misogyny occupied the same part of his mental furnishings as they might to anyone here seems highly illogical.
That is emphatically NOT to say it played no part at all - I'm sure it did. It's more that it's impossible to know what valence it had.
For that reason, I think this is a poor case to draw too many conclusions from. It's a shame, as conclusions about the effects of misogyny can and should be made. The problem is that this is an iconic case and has grabbed the headlines. Whereas the sort of case that should be getting this amount of attention is probably going through a court much nearer to where you live. You'll be lucky if it even makes the pages of your local newspaper.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
HRB
Very good summary, Ron. I think 'iconic' cases like this often get inserted into various narratives, ideological, political, and so on. It's inevitable, but they tend to offer monolithic explanations, and with someone like Rodger, there probably isn't one, as you say.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
All the talk about white men is interesting because all three of the male victims were Asian.
By 'interesting' you mean 'not terribly consistent with what happened'.
Also, the bit about Japanese pop music and how gun control won't solve 'the problem' rather begs the question about what 'the problem' is.
I know damn well that gun control won't stop people going crazy. What it will do is reduce the effectiveness of the weapons most readily available to crazy people. As much as it is possible to stab several people with a knife or hack at several people with a chainsaw, it is still considerably more challenging to kill people that way than with a weapon that allows you to mow people down without getting within swinging distance.
[ 03. June 2014, 23:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I don't want to repeat that, but it seems to me that whatever his diagnosis was (and severe personality disorders do seem to be involved), then assuming that factors such as misogyny occupied the same part of his mental furnishings as they might to anyone here seems highly illogical.
You'll have to show me where anybody on this thread has made that claim; I missed it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I don't want to repeat that, but it seems to me that whatever his diagnosis was (and severe personality disorders do seem to be involved), then assuming that factors such as misogyny occupied the same part of his mental furnishings as they might to anyone here seems highly illogical.
You'll have to show me where anybody on this thread has made that claim; I missed it.
Page 1, eleventh post (as example).
The point is that any such claim requires an understanding of how he thought about things, which is just not available to us. Any diagnostic manual will warn you that people with certain serious personality disorders simply cannot be relied upon for self-reporting. Everything is rearranged in service of Project Me.
[ 04. June 2014, 09:30: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I don't want to repeat that, but it seems to me that whatever his diagnosis was (and severe personality disorders do seem to be involved), then assuming that factors such as misogyny occupied the same part of his mental furnishings as they might to anyone here seems highly illogical.
You'll have to show me where anybody on this thread has made that claim; I missed it.
Page 1, eleventh post (as example).
The point is that any such claim requires an understanding of how he thought about things, which is just not available to us. Any diagnostic manual will warn you that people with certain serious personality disorders simply cannot be relied upon for self-reporting. Everything is rearranged in service of Project Me.
Okay so you think Rodger didn't really hate women, but pretended he did as a front?
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I don't want to repeat that, but it seems to me that whatever his diagnosis was (and severe personality disorders do seem to be involved), then assuming that factors such as misogyny occupied the same part of his mental furnishings as they might to anyone here seems highly illogical.
You'll have to show me where anybody on this thread has made that claim; I missed it.
Page 1, eleventh post (as example).
The point is that any such claim requires an understanding of how he thought about things, which is just not available to us. Any diagnostic manual will warn you that people with certain serious personality disorders simply cannot be relied upon for self-reporting. Everything is rearranged in service of Project Me.
Okay so you think Rodger didn't really hate women, but pretended he did as a front?
No I don't think that. In fact I said so in my earlier post, where I said I was sure misogyny did play a part - quote:
That is emphatically NOT to say it played no part at all - I'm sure it did. It's more that it's impossible to know what valence it had.
Did you miss my point about valence? That it is impossible to determine the emotional value associated with this as a stimulus?
Valence.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by mousethief:
[qb] Okay so you think Rodger didn't really hate women, but pretended he did as a front?
No I don't think that. In fact I said so in my earlier post, where I said I was sure misogyny did play a part...
Okay so I'm confused. What exactly is the point of your discussion of his feeling one thing and wanting to project another? How does that tie in to the misogyny aspect?
quote:
That is emphatically NOT to say it played no part at all - I'm sure it did. It's more that it's impossible to know what valence it had.
<snip>
Did you miss my point about valence? That it is impossible to determine the emotional value associated with this as a stimulus?
Valence.
Now I'm confuseder. Are you saying you don't know whether his feelings about women had a negative or positive valence for him?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Mousethief wrote: quote:
Okay so I'm confused. What exactly is the point of your discussion of his feeling one thing and wanting to project another? How does that tie in to the misogyny aspect?
Well - I've got a range of things that may count as points.
1. The need to understand the sources of this misogyny
2. The need to understand what needs to be done to tackle it with the aim of eliminating it
3. The more scientific urge not to draw unwarranted conclusions from one single case, which I believe is anomalous in various ways.
Tackling 1 & 2 are key. Running around like headless chickens (which we have largely avoided here) is what tends to happen after every such outrage. "Something must be done". I've no idea what it is that has been done, but whatever it is, it isn't working. So more heavy lifting is needed. OK - I'm only trying to be clear why I'm engaging at the more general level here.
At the more detailed level, my point isn't really about projection (though I'll bet it's in there somewhere). It's more about the factors that led to his mental state and that in turn caused him to flip. What follows is what I think.
I'm sort-of assuming that his reported feelings may identify some of these factors. But to be honest I'd have to acknowledge that even parts of that may be a pose. He clearly had an ego a mile wide, and that's the personality dysfunction that warns us to take nothing literally without testing.
If you take a look at his videos, there's a dreary similarity to them. "Here I am, all alone, despite being God's gift to humanity. I like to come here in the evenings where I can get away from vile humankind. Oh no, look at that couple over there kissing. That's really spoilt my day". Endless obsessing about his failure to get a girl, endless disgust at the creeps who succeeded, culminating in the blame on the entire female sex for being so disgusting as to make these choices.
And as for his heroic attempts to woo the opposite sex? Apparently they consisted of dressing well and sitting around, awaiting the next passing female to swoon and fall into his arms.
And then there's his online obsessions which seem to have fed his misogyny. This Grauniad article seems to sum up the main points. But quite a bit of the problem seems to come from PUAhate - a sour, inward-looking collection of males who are dominated by "incels" venting their spleen against women who won't have anything to do with them.
In a way, he hates all humanity. His hatred has many of the contradictions of PUAhate - a hatred of men who succeed in bedding women, and a hatred of the women who choose them.
His final manifesto is toe-curlingly misogynistic. But if you have the stomach for it, try stripping out that, and you'll find the basic framework, which is hatred of the whole man + woman thing. He has a plan to cleanse all that...
Clearly deranged. But my tentative conclusion is that he was locked in an unresolvable problem. Misogyny provided him with the key to unlock it - violently, and (in his eyes) heroically. Goodness knows if I'm right though - I'd give it 30-40% probability.
That's not going to be the case with most people. We don't have a lock which that key fits. Misogyny does other kinds of damage elsewhere. Even so, if he is typical of a certain subset of men that form a high-risk group, that could be very helpful information in deciding how and where to tackle the problem. So we need to sort out point 3. from my list before tackling 1 & 2.
The point is not whether you agree with me over the narrative above. We can discuss that, possibly elsewhere. It's simply to show how understanding the roots of this violence is always a project that could pay dividends.
Sorry about the length, but I thought your questions were genuinely meant. It's late now, but I'll try to get back to you tomorrow about your second question.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, I think we're not all that far apart; it was a communication problem more than a disagreement about basic principles.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
A day later than anticipated, but back to address your second point, mt. Though first, I've just realised that possibly the source of misunderstanding was my use of the phrase "Project Me" - I meant the great project of everything being about me, rather than anything to do with projection. Apologies for that.
quote:
Are you saying you don't know whether his feelings about women had a negative or positive valence for him?
I was thinking about the relative magnitude in fact, though as we can't know what other things earlier in his life may have contributed something, it's an impossible task. Which was my point really.
But you raise an interesting separate point about whether it had positive or negative valence. I'm sure at the end misogyny had a positive valence to him - it provided him with an explanation why he was so unhappy. You might think that any sane person would spot that sitting around looking cool is no way to develop a relationship with a woman. But a) he was severely disordered, and b) apparently the denizens of PUAhate seemed to think that was what cool dudes did.
Whether misogyny occupied any part of his thinking before the PUAhate stage I don't know. He appears to have been active on other internet fora which were not overtly misogynistic as well, though for all I know he may have been a long-time imbiber of this sort of stuff from other sources. He does seem to have had access either directly or indirectly to some MRA thinking, judging by some of the tropes in his "manifesto".
There's always the option he might have been originally ambivalent of course - the are plenty of things most of us are ambivalent about. But either hanging out around sites that feed your obsession(s), or just the glittering allure of the transgressive might have provided the impetus if that was the case. But at this point I'd need to remind myself again that these speculations are all very well, but we have a seriously disturbed person whose thought processes may be completely different to anything I can dream up.
So positive to him, I think, but unclear on its value. But judging by its external impacts, we surely have to say it was a major source of the situation that unravelled.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Since I brought it up here first...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
For anyone in the UK, Channel 4 is planning to air a documentary about Elliott Rodger this coming Sunday (15th June) at 2205, right after Fargo.
Not sure whether their streaming service works outside the UK (unless of course you have some sort of virtual tunnel).
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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