|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
I was recently in Great Britain, sometimes in England and sometimes in Scotland, and I heard a couple of different opinions about the upcoming vote.
What do the Shipmates from Scotland have to say?
(If there has been a thread on this before, I have not been able to find it.)
[ 08. January 2015, 14:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
We have had threads on the subject before. I don't think we've had one recently - certainly not since the "official" start of campaigning for the referendum.
I'm still undecided.
I decided long ago that we're not voting on the question I would have wanted on the referendum. IMO, the Scottish Government has put the cart before the horse. We needed to start with a "Do you want the Scottish Government to explore options for Independence?" question - in our out of EU? keep the pound, Euro, own currency? in or out of NATO? university research funding through UK Research Councils or a Scottish funding option? Basically, what will Independence look like, and will it work. And then (if yes to that) get presented with one or more options for Independence and asked to vote "yes or no" on that - with that vote being UK wide (with some method to ensure fairness to Scotland, which would be part of the work conducted in advance about how independence would work).
But, we've got a question which doesn't define "Independence". We've got a Scottish Government document that paints big pictures of a vision for independence (plus a whole load of gumph that should be in the SNP manifesto for the next Scottish Parliamentary elections as they don't really depend on independence). It's actually a great vision, but as the "no" campaign have made clear there's no guarantee any of it can be made to happen - to stay in the EU, keep the pound etc will require negotiation with no guaranteed outcome.
That being said, the "Yes" campaign have presented a compelling vision of what an Independent Scotland could be. The "No" campaign was initially pretty negative - telling us that the "Yes" vision wasn't going to work. They seem to be getting their act together and are starting to present a positive side to the campaign and describe what Scotland gains by staying in the Union - a lot of it being devolution+ rather than just what the current arrangement is.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
The problem the SNP faced was that there was no way that they could have the negotiations on independence before a referendum, and if they tried they'd have been accused of trying to pre-empt the vote.
I'm strongly considering voting in favour. I think there is more chance of trying to build a fairer society in Scotland than trying to counteract the English tory vote and build one across the UK.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
If there were to be three choices on the ballot paper (Yes / Full fiscal autonomy falling short of full independence / No ) I would definitely vote for the middle option, also known as Devo Max.
As that isn't a option, I'll be voting "Yes."
I'd agree with everything that Alan has said.
Part of the problem is that, whilst the SNP have produced a massive document detailing what they believe Independence would mean, the "No" campaign have been very vague, with threats that independence will be unpleasant, but few facts. They've been suggesting that a No vote might still produce greater devolution, but without any definite commitment.
Personally, I think it's still all to play for. The polls suggest that the majority are not in favour of Independence, but that the Yes voters, though fewer in numbers, are more committed to turning out and voting on the day.
I'm seeing a lot of "Yes" material - stickers on cars, posters in house windows, lapel badges. There's much less visible "No" material.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
The arguments don't matter at the moment. The vote is in September so why should the No campaign spend any money on it now? Nobody wins anything in June!
It will be spent in the month leading up to the vote, and that is when the campaign will start. If the SNP have any money left by then of course.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
The arguments do matter at the moment. This is our future we're talking about; it's our children's futures.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I strongly support the right of Scotland to make the decision, rather than whole UK (I'm English btw), but I am hoping for a No vote.
I would rather have a fully federated Britain, including proper representation for the remaining colonies and crown territories.
I seriously doubt Scotland will do as well independently - and I don't think the rest of us will either.
[ 05. June 2014, 19:50: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
I'm a Londoner living in Edinburgh. Neither of my parents were born in the UK. My surname comes from Galloway. My wife was brought up in Scotland, but her ancestry is also mixed English and Scottish.
As far as the sentimental side of the argument goes, I'm all for the Union. That's who I am.
As for the practical side of it, I am really unconvinced by a proposal to keep the pound but leave the BBC. Keeping the pound is not independence in any way that I can understand. Immigration: I can't see an independent Scotland joining the Schengen area, nor can I see it running any immigration policy that the English government didn't find acceptable. If the proposal were to take most of northern England with us, I'd be more convinced by arguments for fairness.
(I saw a yes campaign advert yesterday, claiming that an independent Scotland wouldn't go into illegal wars, illustrated by a picture of Blair. Where was Blair born and brought up again?)
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
The SNP were vociferously opposed to the Iraq War, though.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gone into an illegal war.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The SNP were vociferously opposed to the Iraq War, though.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gone into an illegal war.
I think it is fair to say that they wouldn't have gone into that illegal war.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
Apologies, yes, Doublethink. Poor phrasing on my part.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
|
Posted
There may be much merit in the principle, but the current SNP proposal seems half-baked with too many unanswered questions. Personally I've only heard Scots speak against it, whilst everyone in my acquaintance in favour is English or Welsh.
I do find the Conservative position hard to understand, at both an ideological and a pragmatic level.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
I'm an Englishman, living in England, and I'd like Scotland to vote no. I don't much fancy having my country torn apart.
What don't you understand about the Conservative position, Oddjob?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The SNP were vociferously opposed to the Iraq War, though.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gone into an illegal war.
An independent Scotland wouldn't necessarily be an SNP-run Scotland.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
|
Posted
And the yes campaign is not just about the SNP. Indeed there is an argument that says that only in a independent Scotland can the Tories re-gain any credibility north of the border.
I think,that the reason the yes stickers are obvious, as they are, and the no ones are not, is because there have been no "no" stickers made!
--------------------
"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The SNP were vociferously opposed to the Iraq War, though.
I think it's fair to say they wouldn't have gone into an illegal war.
As pointed out, we're voting for independence not for the SNP. Tony Blair is Scottish. It is quite possible that had Scotland been independent at the time of the Second Iraq War Blair would have been the Scottish First Minister and taken Scotland into it.
(For that matter, it would be a semi-feasible proposition for Cameron to become head of Clan Cameron by strategically bumping off relatives a la Kind Hearts and Coronets.)
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I would rather have a fully federated Britain, including proper representation for the remaining colonies and crown territories.
But, when the best isn't on offer we have to settle for second best.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
For me, the union is the second best. But then, I don't have a vote - unless, weirdly, I happen to get a job in Scotland and move. Then suddenly my opinion counts - I do find that odd.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
There may be much merit in the principle, but the current SNP proposal seems half-baked with too many unanswered questions. Personally I've only heard Scots speak against it, whilst everyone in my acquaintance in favour is English or Welsh.
I do find the Conservative position hard to understand, at both an ideological and a pragmatic level.
The SNP has been crystal-clear and forthright compared to the two failed referendums their siblings-in-spirit the Parti Québecois tried here in Canada. The PQ didn't have a position paper and couldn't bring itself to think about losing the Canadian Dollar.
With regards to Doublethink's position, is the UK a union or not? In Canada in 1995 the federalist "No" side ran a Quebec-only-matters campaign and nearly lost. It left federalists in Quebec on the point of tears at feeling abandoned and the rest of the country was pulling its hair out at being ignored.
So the rules were ripped up and there was a massive unity rally in Montreal a few days before the referendum. 50,000 turned out including four provincial premiers. Convoys of buses rolled down Highway 401 for that.
It was the boost the "No" campaign needed. They won by 0.5%. My greatest fear is the the Scottish "No" campaign's greatest weakness is people on both sides of the Tweed have stopped believing in the United Kingdom. Nations don't die when they break apart; they die when people stop believing in them.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
As pointed out, we're voting for independence not for the SNP. Tony Blair is Scottish. It is quite possible that had Scotland been independent at the time of the Second Iraq War Blair would have been the Scottish First Minister and taken Scotland into it.
(For that matter, it would be a semi-feasible proposition for Cameron to become head of Clan Cameron by strategically bumping off relatives a la Kind Hearts and Coronets.)
The reason for Blair being elected disappears in an independent Scotland. Scottish Labour alone wouldn't have picked anyone so right wing without having to try to appeal to tories in the south east.
[code]
[ 06. June 2014, 05:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
Slightly amused but not at all surprised that the practical experience of another part of the United Kingdom leaving is hardly mentioned.
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I think having a war is something everyone would like to avoid. Along with community violence in the rest of the UK, and a state so poor at the outset it has to hand over its welfare state to the Catholic church.
[ 06. June 2014, 06:38: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
I think Irish independence came up on the last Scottish independence thread.
Quite a big difference, presumably, is the size of the state in 2014 compared to 1922? The fundamentals might be similar, but in this respect I imagine life was somewhat simpler back then.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
After ninety three years we've better dole and pensions but means tested medical cards. Mustn't mention the means tested medical cards. Did I mention means tested medical cards?
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
After ninety three years we've better dole and pensions but means tested medical cards. Mustn't mention the means tested medical cards. Did I mention means tested medical cards?
I was shocked to realize this. Does this mean that if you're reasonably well off, you have to pay for medicines, hospital treatment, and so on?
I think that is very unlikely in an independent Scotland; in some ways, the expectation would be the opposite, that the drive to privatize in the NHS would be resisted, and things like payment for GP visits would not happen. But of course, a right-wing govt in Scotland could happen one day.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Nations don't die when they break apart; they die when people stop believing in them.
I think people stopped believing in Britain a long time ago. I am seeing more and more calls for the breakup of England let alone Scotland. I can see England being split into two countries roughly along the line of the old Danelaw yet, the North-South divide goes deep - economically, politically and culturally.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
I'm half English and I was never into the Britain thing. I still get vexed when people refer to me as half British. I always reply that I'm not British, I'm half English (and half Finnish).
I think the Scotts should go for independence. The only thing I would say is don't give that independence up to the EU.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
The government have created this handy guide for those undecided which way to vote. They've made it nice and simple, using Lego, because they apparently think that Scottish voters are not very bright. They obviously know what appeals to Scottish voters, too, pointing out that we could eat fish and chips every day for ten weeks for the amount of money independence will cost us.
There is genuine puzzlement in Scotland at why the government thinks this sort of thing will appeal to Scots. It's as if the government is actively nudging us towards a "Yes" vote.
[ 06. June 2014, 09:07: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
You do wonder, NEQ. The tactics of the 'No' campaign have varied between bullying and patronising.
I am - just - favouring a No vote (on the grounds of scepticism about the role of the nation state in an age of globalisation). But I would accept a Yes with equanimity.
Either way, I see an increase in the fracture between London and the SE and the Rest.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Are the Scottish government allowed to campaign for a Yes? I thought the Yes/No campaign groups were supposed to be independent?
Doublethink: quote:
I don't have a vote - unless, weirdly, I happen to get a job in Scotland and move. Then suddenly my opinion counts - I do find that odd.
Not particularly odd. The Scottish Government has obviously done its calculations and decided that people born in Scotland who are currently living and working elsewhere in the UK are more likely to be in favour of the Union than people from the rest of the UK who are currently resident in Scotland.
FWIW I think they're right. The plural of anecdote is not data, but my Other Half was born in Edinburgh, has spent most of his life working in London and living in England and would vote No if he was allowed to.
If the proposal was independence for Northern England in a union with Scotland, I'd vote for it like a shot. Certainly the counties immediately south of the Border have more in common with Scotland than with London and the South-East.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
My greatest fear is the the Scottish "No" campaign's greatest weakness is people on both sides of the Tweed have stopped believing in the United Kingdom. Nations don't die when they break apart; they die when people stop believing in them.
I believe in self-determination. If the Scots want to be an independent country, deciding on everything for themselves without the rest of us getting in the way, then good luck to them.
I'd say the same of Wales. Or Cornwall. Or any other area that decides it would rather go its own way without having to kowtow to the rest of its current nation. If a majority of Catalans want to leave Spain, they should be allowed to do so. If a majority of Quebecois want to leave Canada, they should be allowed to do so. If the Flemish and Walloons want to split Belgium in two, they should be allowed to do so. If a majority of Texans want to leave the USA, they should be allowed to do so. Tibet. Taiwan. East Timor. South Sudan. Eritrea. Kosovo. Chechnya. Same story.
I see no good reason why any region that wants it should be prevented from gaining independence.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Are the Scottish government allowed to campaign for a Yes? I thought the Yes/No campaign groups were supposed to be independent?
The Scottish Government produced Scotland's Future and other pro-Independence propoganda. I see no reason why the Westminster Government can't use Lego bricks to present an alternative position.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
I suppose so, and if the Westminster government can't be bothered to find out how to present their arguments in a way that will appeal to *real* Scottish voters then it's their funeral.
They patronise us as well, by the way.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curious Kitten
Shipmate
# 11953
|
Posted
My big issue with the yes campaign winning is completely selfish and cares naught for Scotland's interests but Scottish independence will be the nail in the coffin for any devolution of power from Westminster to anywhere for a very long time.
I can't having lived outside the barrier of mattering to Westminster through Blair and Cameron see the North-South divide becoming less in trenched without some feeling of control for the north. Especially with the safety valve of Westminster blaming and harassing Scotland taken away.
--------------------
Happiness is not having what we want but wanting what we have.
Posts: 107 | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Yes, that's why I'd like to see Northern England in a union with Scotland...
Some people have suggested that London (having looted the rest of the UK of everything it wants over the last thousand years or so) should become a city-state independent of the rest of the country, just as Singapore is independent of Malaysia.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm an Englishman, living in England, and I'd like Scotland to vote no. I don't much fancy having my country torn apart.
Do you think of England or the UK as your country? I worry more about the affect on England of losing Scotland and getting a permanent Tory majority in its place.
I'd be practising my Scots' but maybe in the SW we should be going for a renewed Wessex. Britain is our kingdom as founded by Brutus Aeneas in Totnes.
--------------------
"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
I consider the UK to be my country, so don't much fancy it being dismembered.
(I'd also like a permanent Tory majority, but that's proving more elusive...)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I consider the UK to be my country
Then why describe yourself as "an Englishman, living in England" rather than "British, living in the UK?" or even "an Englishman, living in the UK"?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
While I advocate the right of the Scots to vote on their independence, I can't help but think that the way the referendum was set up was a bit wonky.
First of all, there was the fiasco regarding the wording of the question, which was ultimately ruled to be biased and had to be changed, though what gets me is the undemocratic nature of who gets to vote and who is affected by it.
For example, anyone who was born in Scotland and who lives in Scotland gets to vote. That's fine.
Anyone who wasn't born in Scotland but lives there gets to vote. Yet those who would have their nationality changed are those who were born in Scotland. So if, say, I was born in Scotland but currently lived in Carlise, I would not get a vote, but if the 'Yes' campaign won, then my nationality would be changed without me getting a say in it. Worse still, someone who wouldn't be affected by it (c.f. the West Lothian question) gets to vote. e.g. any Welshman who happens to live in Aberdeen.
This isn't argument for the 'Yes' or 'No' campaign, but rather the point is that the way the whole thing has been set up has been ill-thought out.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
There needed to be some way of deciding who gets to vote, and who doesn't. What's been adopted is quite simple, anyone registered to vote in a Scottish constituency - extended to 16 year olds to reflect the stated wish of the Scottish Government to all 16 year olds to vote (but something they can't actually enact for elections as that isn't a power they have).
And, people born in Scotland will be able to claim Scottish citizenship, it won't be forced on them.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, people born in Scotland will be able to claim Scottish citizenship, it won't be forced on them.
I believe that anyone currently living in Scotland would also be able to apply for Scottish citizenship, regardless of their parentage or place of birth.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Which is no different from the current situation (except for Scottish rather than UK citizenship). Though I'm not sure if the Scottish government is considering a test to correspond to the current one for UK citizenship.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I consider the UK to be my country
Then why describe yourself as "an Englishman, living in England" rather than "British, living in the UK?" or even "an Englishman, living in the UK"?
Because I thought it a more accurate description for the purposes of this discussion. Being an Englishman and being British aren’t mutually exclusive, even if one prioritises one description over another. Since the question in the OP was directed towards Scots, describing myself as an Englishman seemed to make more sense. Describing myself as living in England made more sense to me as it shows that I don’t have a vote in the referendum.
If this thread was discussing independence for Yorkshire, for example, I might describe myself in terms of my county of birth and not mention nationality at all.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though I'm not sure if the Scottish government is considering a test to correspond to the current one for UK citizenship.
That will be for them to decide if and when independence becomes a reality. Personally I think it would be a good idea, but it's not my call to make.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Are the Scottish government allowed to campaign for a Yes? I thought the Yes/No campaign groups were supposed to be independent?
If you think the government and the campaign are independent, you're kidding yourself. As an example, I present you the PQ Governments of Quebec and the Liberal Governments of Canada in 1980 and 1995.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
It is nice at any rate that this issue is being dealt with in a more civilized fashion than, for instance, the breakup of Yugoslavia.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Slightly amused but not at all surprised that the practical experience of another part of the United Kingdom leaving is hardly mentioned.
Indeed! Not entirely convinced that Ireland of the 1920's is comparable with Scotland of 2014 though. But I guess there must be disgruntled Presbyterians somewhere up there who are poor and trampled and ready to rise up against their British Anglican oppressors. The possibility of a United Celtic Nations forming slightly amuses me.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, people born in Scotland will be able to claim Scottish citizenship, it won't be forced on them.
Yes, that is what I have been told. I was very worried about that one as I am happy being an Englishman of Scottish birth and descent. If I had to choose I would choose English/rUK/not Scottish.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Ronald Binge:
quote:
Slightly amused but not at all surprised that the practical experience of another part of the United Kingdom leaving is hardly mentioned.
Indeed! Not entirely convinced that Ireland of the 1920's is comparable with Scotland of 2014 though. But I guess there must be disgruntled Presbyterians somewhere up there who are poor and trampled and ready to rise up against their British Anglican oppressors. The possibility of a United Celtic Nations forming slightly amuses me.
Well I'd support that Fletcher Christian so that's you and me supporting a Celtic Union. Support for the concept doubled already!
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Yay! Let's have a referendum. It might be better if we don't tell them it will include Wales and a bit of Cornwall.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
