Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Vote on Scottish Independence
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by HCH: I confess my ignorance: legal tender versus legal currency. My dictionary indicates that legal tender can be offered and must be accepted as payment of a debt and that currency is simply paper money. If currency is not legal tender, what good is it?
Currency is just as good as people's willingness to accept it. As long as enough people think they'll be able to get goods that they want for it then it will be traded for goods. Legal tender AIUI is only of relevance in a highly specific situation. If somebody wants to refuse your money in a shop they're allowed to refuse whether or not it's legal tender. It's only if they've already given you the goods and require payment later that legal tender becomes relevant. [ 11. June 2014, 19:55: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
As I understand it (and I'm not an economist, nor a pedant who really cares about such things), the difference between legal currency and legal tender goes something like this:
If you go into a shop to buy something you enter into what is in effect a negotiation - the shopkeeper is offering to give you something in exchange for something of equal value. Legal currency is something with defined value that simplifies the transaction. That is legal currency. The shop keeper, however, is entitled to say he doesn't consider your currency to have the value claimed and refuse to see you the whatever it is. In the case of trying to use a banknote issued by a Scottish bank in England is that the shopkeeper can only make that claim if he also considers a note issued by the Bank of England to have less value than stated. Both notes have the same legal value.
On the other hand if you are issued with a bill for payment for something you have already received then the issue of legal tender comes into play. One part of the transaction has taken place, and the seller requires payment of something of equal value to the debt, and is entitled to take you to court for nonpayment if he doesn't receive it. You can offer anything to pay the debt, and he may take that as acceptable payment, or he may say "that's not enough" and take you to court. If what you offer to pay is legal tender of sufficient value then his court case doesn't have any basis - he has refused to take payment so can't sue you for refusing to pay.
[x-post with Dafyd] [ 11. June 2014, 20:08: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by John Holding: I guess my question would be about Salmond's ability to deliver what he's promising, when he clearly has no power to force the EU or the British government to do as he wishes. His argument seems to be that "it makes sense" to do it his way. It surely does make sense for Scotland, but it seems to me to be a very disputable matter whether any or all of his assumptions make sense for the people he is counting on to fulfil those assumptions as he hopes they will.
It isn't really in the interests of the rest of the UK for the Scottish economy to go to pot, so I suspect that if Scottish independence went ahead Westminster would be more compliant than its current rhetoric suggests.
The EU I think would be a tougher proposition. Spain in particular would like to send a message to Catalonia that secession is not easy ...
-------------------- Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: quote: Originally posted by Gee D:
What if there be independence and the UK government decides that Scotland cannot keep the pound?
There is no mechanism whereby the rUK government could prevent an independent Scotland from 'keeping' the pound.
They could make it difficult - but as Alan points out, those kinds of policies would also affect the rUK.
Yet again there is an effectively ignored precedent. The Irish Free State/Republic of Ireland's Saorstat/Irish Pound was convertible at an IR£ for Stg£ rate until 1979. No say on interest rates, and the Irish banks were obliged to keep moneys on deposit with the Bank of England. Consequently we had zero say on interest rates until then.
-------------------- Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
When I said "cannot keep the pound" i was using shorthand for "will no longer recognise paper currency issued by Scots banks as valid in the remaining UK and will not accept it in exchange at parity". In other words, the Scots economy would be isolated.
After any independence, Bank of England and the UK Govt would be required to manage the UK economy regardless of the impact on Scotland - much the same as they now do so regardless of the impact on Australia. All of course, subject to any obligations should Scotland become a member of the EU.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
^ I would have thought it obvious that Scottish banks in an independent Scotland have no authority to issue bank notes for the UK. In exactly the same way that French banks have no authority to issue bank notes for the UK.
I think you have the issue backwards in practice. The issue is what currency Scotland will use, not what currency the UK will use.
The only transitional issue from a UK perspective is whether to keep using any 'Scottish-looking' money that was created while Scotland was still part of the UK. And I can't see why they wouldn't, because it's UK money, and any money issued by Scotland post-independence would not be UK money nor would it look like UK money. [ 12. June 2014, 08:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Not sure that it's all that obvious. At present, paper currency issued by Scottish banks is generally recognised in the remainder of the UK, and Ronald Binge has pointed out the continued acceptance of the Irish pound at parity for decades after independence.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Define 'acceptance'. Because if you're talking about people accepting something in practice, then no amount of legal wrangling affects that. There are plenty of countries where people accept US dollars even though there's absolutely no legal basis for doing so.
Similarly, one can find New Zealand coins changing hands in Australia reasonably frequently. That doesn't mean that 'Australia', the country, accepts New Zealand coins. It just means that people who live in Australia generally don't create a fuss if they receive a New Zealand coin in their change. [ 12. June 2014, 09:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Not sure that it's all that obvious. At present, paper currency issued by Scottish banks is generally recognised in the remainder of the UK.
Scottish paper currency is not really relevant in this context. The vast majority of paper used north of the border was issued by the BoE, the banks that do issue (a very limited amount) of 'Scottish paper currency' do so on the basis that it is backed 1:1 by BoE issued currency.
There is nothing to stop an independent Scotland from either continuing to use BoE issued/derived currency or from pegging their currency to the pound.
For the reasons Alan mentions it is unlikely that not having an independent monetary policy would cause issues - at least in the near to mid term.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The relevant part of the Banking Act 2009 authorising Scottish and Northern Irish notes says that the authorised banks are only authorised to issue notes "in the part of the United Kingdom in which it was authorised [under the old 1845 legislation] to issue banknotes before commencement [of the new legislation]".
Which reinforces my view that 'once'(if) Scotland is no longer part of the UK, no Scottish bank would have authority under UK law to issue UK banknotes.
And which I still think is obvious, anyway.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I don't agree that quote: The vast majority of paper used north of the border was issued by the BoE, the banks that do issue (a very limited amount) of 'Scottish paper currency' do so on the basis that it is backed 1:1 by BoE issued currency.
If I'm going to England, I try to change my notes before going, to save hassle. I usually go to our nearest shop, and they riffle through their till for B of E notes, which are a small minority. I would say that 80% at least of the notes which pass through my hands are not B of E. At the moment I have a Clydesdale £20 and a Royal Bank £5 in my purse.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: Which reinforces my view that 'once'(if) Scotland is no longer part of the UK, no Scottish bank would have authority under UK law to issue UK banknotes.
And which I still think is obvious, anyway.
Absolutely, but being able to issue currency is kind orthogonal to whether they are 'allowed to use the Pound as their currency'. Their situation would be more analogous to that of Panama or the Irish state in the era Ronald Binge mentions.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: Which reinforces my view that 'once'(if) Scotland is no longer part of the UK, no Scottish bank would have authority under UK law to issue UK banknotes.
And which I still think is obvious, anyway.
Absolutely, but being able to issue currency is kind orthogonal to whether they are 'allowed to use the Pound as their currency'. Their situation would be more analogous to that of Panama or the Irish state in the era Ronald Binge mentions.
Yes, they are two separate issues.
The UK would have no power to stop an independent Scotland saying that it would use the British Pound as its currency. The whole point of being independent is that UK law wouldn't apply in Scotland. Scottish law would apply.
The only way that the UK could stop British pounds being used in Scotland in practice would be to implement laws and border controls to make it illegal to export UK money into Scotland. That way madness lies. In any case, it would be thoroughly ineffective because people would just export UK money into a third country, and then move it from the third country to Scotland.
EDIT: This is potentially instructive. [ 12. June 2014, 10:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: Scottish paper currency is not really relevant in this context. The vast majority of paper used north of the border was issued by the BoE, the banks that do issue (a very limited amount) of 'Scottish paper currency' do so on the basis that it is backed 1:1 by BoE issued currency.
At the moment I have £50 in notes in my wallet, all in Clydesdale Bank notes. Occasionally someone gives me a Bank of England £5 as change. But cash machines are almost entirely loaded with Clydesdale Bank or Bank of Scotland.
I think people who are planning to visit England do hoard up English notes and take them south. So English notes that make it north over the border tend to go back south disproportionately. That said, I've never had any significant trouble spending a Scottish note south of the border.
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: The relevant part of the Banking Act 2009 authorising Scottish and Northern Irish notes says that the authorised banks are only authorised to issue notes "in the part of the United Kingdom in which it was authorised [under the old 1845 legislation] to issue banknotes before commencement [of the new legislation]".
Which reinforces my view that 'once'(if) Scotland is no longer part of the UK, no Scottish bank would have authority under UK law to issue UK banknotes.
Unless something got written into the necessary Acts for Independence a continuation of the authorisation for Scottish banks to issue GBP notes.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We spent a week in Scotland for the May half term, a couple of weeks ago. The cash points meant that we were spending Scottish notes very quickly. And we spent them in Scotland, rather than have to discuss whether they were legal back in England. A lot of businesses won't take them south of the border, never have.
Not sure how true this is, but having carefully divested herself of all Scottish notes after we spent Christmas in Scotland, the Orcadian taxi driver my daughter booked to get home was annoyed she could only pay in English notes as he was heading home for Hogmanay and couldn't spend English notes in the Orkneys.
-------------------- Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: The relevant part of the Banking Act 2009 authorising Scottish and Northern Irish notes says that the authorised banks are only authorised to issue notes "in the part of the United Kingdom in which it was authorised [under the old 1845 legislation] to issue banknotes before commencement [of the new legislation]".
Which reinforces my view that 'once'(if) Scotland is no longer part of the UK, no Scottish bank would have authority under UK law to issue UK banknotes.
Unless something got written into the necessary Acts for Independence a continuation of the authorisation for Scottish banks to issue GBP notes.
Correct. IF the law changed, it could be done. But I can't really conceive of any reason why the UK parliament would authorise a foreign bank to issue its currency. To my mind, only a country that lacks internal capacity to issue currency would consider such a move, and there are English banks to do the job. They're already doing it. [ 13. June 2014, 11:40: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Good to see that you've come around to what I've been saying all the time, Orfeo.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Good to see that you've come around to what I've been saying all the time, Orfeo.
I don't see how. Scots banks being unable to print sterling has little or no bearing on whether an independent Scotland could use sterling as a currency.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And I don't see how I can make what I've been saying any clearer or simpler - sorry.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Good to see that you've come around to what I've been saying all the time, Orfeo.
I wasn't aware that you were talking about esoteric theoretical possibilities. I was coming at it from the realistic angle.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I thought that I was as well. I was addressing a point over which the Yes vote materials skate very quickly Unless the separation legislation makes specific provision, notes printed in Scotland would not be valid tender in the remaining UK.
Indeed, the UK govt and the Bank of England could do what the Reichsbank did to combat the rampant inflation in Germany in 1921 (or was it 22?), call in old notes and replace them with new - and then refuse to renew notes from citizens of Scotland. Now that may be a bit remote from reality.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
Given that Iceland has shown interest of late in adopting the Canadian dollar, can we see an Atlantic union coming up including Scotland, Canada, Iceland and possible some of the semi-autonomous islands surrounding Britain?
As for currency de facto usage, in Laos only one third of the currency in actual use are the national currency Kip, the only legal tender. Another third is USD, the last third is Thai Baht. Laos is about the size of the UK, with about half of Scotland's population and the development level of the Hebrides. Should work for Scotland as well, one would think.
-------------------- "I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable." Walt Whitman Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: I thought that I was as well. I was addressing a point over which the Yes vote materials skate very quickly Unless the separation legislation makes specific provision, notes printed in Scotland would not be valid tender in the remaining UK.
Indeed, the UK govt and the Bank of England could do what the Reichsbank did to combat the rampant inflation in Germany in 1921 (or was it 22?), call in old notes and replace them with new - and then refuse to renew notes from citizens of Scotland. Now that may be a bit remote from reality.
No, you've gone and talked about a different issue again, in a thoroughly confused way. There won't BE any UK notes being printed outside the UK (in Scotland) to make invalid.
And if you're talking about notes that are already printed, that's a completely different issue. Have you not noticed people saying that Scottish notes aren't routinely accepted over the border now? How can that be a problem with the 'yes' vote if it's already happening before there's a vote?
As for the second part ...why on earth would citizens of Scotland be going to an English bank to get notes? They'll get them IN SCOTLAND. I've already pointed out the massive impracticalities of any attempt of the UK/'England' to stop their notes getting to Scotland. It can't be done unless you stop all currency from leaving the UK for any destination, and that simply won't happen.
As has been pointed out a number of times by me and by others, there are quite a few countries that use another country's currency. Many of them don't ask, because many of them don't do it in any official capacity anyway. It just happens because that's the way people operate. Stopping it in practice is deeply impractical. Stopping it in law is completely ineffective because the law of the issuing country only applies in the issuing country.
You say you can't make what you're saying any clearer, but what you're saying keeps interweaving three independent questions: the location in which a note is issued, the location in which a note is used, and whether a note was printed pre- or post- independence (all of this being predicated on the assumption of an independent Scotland). That makes 8 different permutations, and really to be clear you would need to address each of those 8 different permutations separately. In my view, many of those permutations have no practical relevance whatsoever.
And that's just dealing with a currency called a British Pound and assuming that an independent Scotland won't create its own currency. [ 14. June 2014, 11:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh what the heck, let's go through 'em.
1. British pounds issued in England before split, used in England after split: perfectly fine.
2. British pounds issued in England after split, used in England after split: also perfectly fine.
3. British pounds issued in Scotland before split, used in England after split: well, there are already practical issues with use in England now, as residents have discussed. The practical issues will remain. I can't see a massive reason why the UK authorities would feel the need to legally cancel the currency that's been lawfully issued, though.
4. British pounds issued in Scotland after split, used in England after split: won't exist.
5. British pounds issued in England before split, used in Scotland after split: whether these are allowed will be up to Scotland, not the UK.
6. British pounds issued in England after split, used in Scotland after split: will be up to Scotland, not the UK. Anyone in the UK who thinks they can stop these notes getting to Scotland is living in a fantasy.
7. British pounds issued in Scotland before split, used in Scotland after split: will be up to Scotland, not the UK.
8. British pounds issued in Scotland after split, used in Scotland after split: won't exist. [ 14. June 2014, 11:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JFH: Given that Iceland has shown interest of late in adopting the Canadian dollar, can we see an Atlantic union coming up including Scotland, Canada, Iceland and possible some of the semi-autonomous islands surrounding Britain?
Unlikely in the case of the Crown Dependencies as these get a large chunk of their income from expat British tax avoiders ...
-------------------- Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ricardus: quote: Originally posted by JFH: Given that Iceland has shown interest of late in adopting the Canadian dollar, can we see an Atlantic union coming up including Scotland, Canada, Iceland and possible some of the semi-autonomous islands surrounding Britain?
Unlikely in the case of the Crown Dependencies as these get a large chunk of their income from expat British tax avoiders ...
Expat British tax avoiders - I can't help but think that that would include American investments in Canada as well!
-------------------- "I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable." Walt Whitman Formerly JFH
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
but, when we get a Yes vote, the whole of Scotland joins the ex-Brit camp avoiding British taxes by paying Scottish taxes.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Orfeo, I regret that I am unable to convince you that what you and I are saying is identical. I can't put what I've said any other way, but it is the same.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: Orfeo, I regret that I am unable to convince you that what you and I are saying is identical. I can't put what I've said any other way, but it is the same.
I can't see how we can be saying the same thing, given that my point of view is that there is no possible practical difficulty with Scotland using British pounds if it chooses to.
You had a problem with the Yes case skating over the question. I don't have a problem with them not addressing it in detail, because I can't see that there is in fact any difficult problem to solve. [ 15. June 2014, 05:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
On the 'on the ground' solutions, you can find plenty of places around the NI/Republic of Ireland that take both pounds and Euros.
Before that, I think the Punt was pegged to parity with the pound, so British and Irish notes circulated through the whole island - though you couldn't pass Irish notes in mainland Britain. But there again, I've had notes issued by Northern Irish banks refused in Scotland.
ISTM that ultimately 'real money' is whatever people are prepared to give you stuff in exchange for.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I don't know what to say which will convince you, except to pick up on what's in Firenze's post: the Scots can use the pound notes for whatever purpose they may wish. That's not to say that they are using the pound. [ 15. June 2014, 07:21: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
When the Punt was around it was a good bit harder to pass them off as tender, even in the border areas where some places like garages did take them. It's become a lot easier with the Euro today and there are quite a number of places in the cities in the North that will accept Euro's. The Northern Ireland sterling banknotes are still a problem though, often not accepted in the rest of the UK despite being sterling.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: You had a problem with the Yes case skating over the question. I don't have a problem with them not addressing it in detail, because I can't see that there is in fact any difficult problem to solve.
Agreed. There are some big questions that actually can't be answered right now that will have significant impact - membership of the EU, for example. Currency isn't a big issue. There are three option: share the GBP, join Euro, have own currency. The Yes campaign have said their preference is sharing the GBP, but as far as I can see both of the other options are viable (joining Euro being dependent on outside factors) and it will make little practical difference to the people of Scotland which option we end up with.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: I don't know what to say which will convince you, except to pick up on what's in Firenze's post: the Scots can use the pound notes for whatever purpose they may wish. That's not to say that they are using the pound.
Of course it means they're using the pound. What on earth do you think they'd be using?
Firenze talked about pegging two currencies at parity. That does not mean the same thing as them being one currency.
Nor is having two currencies circulating the same as having one, foreign currency circulating.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: You had a problem with the Yes case skating over the question. I don't have a problem with them not addressing it in detail, because I can't see that there is in fact any difficult problem to solve.
Agreed. There are some big questions that actually can't be answered right now that will have significant impact - membership of the EU, for example. Currency isn't a big issue. There are three option: share the GBP, join Euro, have own currency. The Yes campaign have said their preference is sharing the GBP, but as far as I can see both of the other options are viable (joining Euro being dependent on outside factors) and it will make little practical difference to the people of Scotland which option we end up with.
I'm not convinced about 'little practical difference'. My sister lives in Germany, and was there when the Euro was introduced. She definitely noticed things becoming immediately more expensive (or, that her wages/savings when converted seemed to shrink somewhat - not extortionately, but noticeably). Having said that, as someone with a vote in this referendum I do agree that, for me, currency isn't a big issue in my thinking. As Alan said, our membership of the EU is a much more important issue, to my mind, and one which seems to be being skirted over in the constant banging-on about the pound.
-------------------- "My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand) wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jack the Lass: My sister lives in Germany, and was there when the Euro was introduced. She definitely noticed things becoming immediately more expensive (or, that her wages/savings when converted seemed to shrink somewhat - not extortionately, but noticeably).
Citation needed. This paper argues that perceived inflation far outstripped any acutal inflation. It observes a little inflation on some relatively low-priced (but commonly-purchased) goods, but nothing more.
I'm old enough to remember people making similar complaints about the transition to decimal currency. This paper suggests the problem is poor communication, which is also I think the biggest weakness of the EU on the whole.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: quote: Originally posted by Jack the Lass: My sister lives in Germany, and was there when the Euro was introduced. She definitely noticed things becoming immediately more expensive (or, that her wages/savings when converted seemed to shrink somewhat - not extortionately, but noticeably).
Citation needed. This paper argues that perceived inflation far outstripped any acutal inflation. It observes a little inflation on some relatively low-priced (but commonly-purchased) goods, but nothing more.
Oh sure, very probably, and of course I am doing the terrible thing of using a sample of 1, for which of course you can give whatever weight you choose - but given that perception (about many issues) can affect voting (just look at how successfully UKIP, the Daily Mail et al have managed to affect perceptions about Europe and immigration), a perceived loss in income/savings value or increase in prices as a result of independence/currency change could make a difference (a) to where people might choose to cast their vote and (b) how they react and vote in any future post-independence polity.
-------------------- "My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand) wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That's what's depressing. When the debate even by national institutions is at the level of Lego figures about saving money on your gas bill, how can one expect anyone to make a properly informed decision about anything?
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: There are three option: share the GBP, join Euro, have own currency. The Yes campaign have said their preference is sharing the GBP, but as far as I can see both of the other options are viable (joining Euro being dependent on outside factors) and it will make little practical difference to the people of Scotland which option we end up with.
Hey, what about joining the Swedish, Danish or Norwegian Krona? After all, our shared history is way older than those Southern Normands, right? (Also, Sweden's second city and main port, Gothenburg, is supposed to have gotten its distinct rolling r's in the local accent from the immense trade with Glasgow a century back or two.)
-------------------- "I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable." Walt Whitman Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think I mentioned that option upthread somewhere. Yes, it is an option - I would put it in with option 2 - join an existing currency eg: Euro, Krona etc
It certainly seems that from my (not perfect) knowledge of Scandinavian countries that the social and political soul of Scotland does align pretty well across the North Sea. An independent Scotland will probably relatively quickly adopt a form of social democracy that looks quite Scandinavian.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Presuming it can afford it. This would in large part be determined by whether the electorate were prepared to bear the substantially increased burden of tax required to fund such. [ETA: I have my doubts about that.] [ 15. June 2014, 16:38: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
-------------------- "[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
From over here most attempts from the Scots, those Brits, to pretend to be Scandinavians look pretty ridiculous. It's about culture, history, values, traditions, many more things. For example, how many wars have you fought against another Scandinavian nation? Remember, Swedes and Danes are actually world record holders in mutual wars. Or what about Christmas - on the 25th or the 24th? What traditions do you have regarding the summer solstice? How do your labour unions differ from the foolishly belligerent English/Welsh ones? What's your take on the Jante law?
Nah, from here we can tell you're nothing but pesky Brits, possibly with a slight trace of French influences during the enlightenment. We, on the other hand, belong to the Germanic protestant culture. Last but not least, we all understand this sketch - once you do, you can reapply for admission.
ETA: I should probably link this too. [ 15. June 2014, 16:48: Message edited by: JFH ]
-------------------- "I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable." Walt Whitman Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Not that what the pope says on this subject is in any way binding on Catholics (or anyone else, naturally), but here's one take on his recent comments on being cautious about splitting: quote: Speaking in an interview with a Spanish newspaper about Catalonia's conflict with Spain, the Pontiff said "all division" worried him and cited Scotland as another example of an independence movement. Pope Francis suggested the break-up of Yugoslavia was justifiable because the cultures that made up that country were so diverse they "couldn’t even be stuck together with glue". But he told the Barcelona-based La Vanguardia newspaper that in other cases, such as Scotland and Catalonia: "I ask myself if it is so clear" [...] While he said each case had to be judged on its own merits, he suggested he was more sceptical about independence campaigns that involved countries without a history of "mandatory unity" - forcing different peoples to live together.
-------------------- "[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JFH: Given that Iceland has shown interest of late in adopting the Canadian dollar, can we see an Atlantic union coming up including Scotland, Canada, Iceland and possible some of the semi-autonomous islands surrounding Britain?
As for currency de facto usage, in Laos only one third of the currency in actual use are the national currency Kip, the only legal tender. Another third is USD, the last third is Thai Baht. Laos is about the size of the UK, with about half of Scotland's population and the development level of the Hebrides. Should work for Scotland as well, one would think.
Canada has shown less than zero interest in these proposals floating out of Iceland. Canada had a flexible exchange rate long before most of the world because of our large, open trade with the US. The Department of Finance and Bank of Canada are very, very keen supporters of an independent central bank.
The Dept. of Finance and the Bank of Canada have poured all kinds of cold water over these proposals and has clearly stated that there will be no policy changes or concessions whatsoever by the Bank of Canada, which will continue to focus on the interests of Canada only. And don't even think about asking for a seat on the Board of Governors.
-------------------- NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Iceland has been muttering about this even before its multi-bank multi-collapse. Given the strong links between the two countries and Iceland's political distaste for the US, it's bound to come up every now and then. During WWII, Mackenzie King declined to take over the occupation of Iceland, fearing that we might get stuck with them permanently.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: The Yes campaign have said their preference is sharing the GBP, but as far as I can see both of the other options are viable (joining Euro being dependent on outside factors) and it will make little practical difference to the people of Scotland which option we end up with.
"Little practical difference"? I laugh.
Share the GBP = Scottish monetary policy will be based on what's best for rUK.
Share the Euro = Scottish monetary policy will be based on what's best for Germany and France.
Own currency = Scottish monetary policy will be based on what's best for Scotland.
If that's "little practical difference" then I don't know what constitutes a genuine one!
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The "little practical difference" was that there isn't much difference in the economic needs of Scotland, the UK or most of the Euro-zone. Whichever form of currency we get we're not going to experience hyper-inflation, or collapse of financial institutions, nor are we going to experience substantial increases in costs for international trade because of currency exchange. Yes, having a national currency provides some minimal increase in sovereignty.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: The "little practical difference" was that there isn't much difference in the economic needs of Scotland, the UK or most of the Euro-zone.
When things are going well, sure. But when the next recession hits it could be the difference between how the UK coped with the last one and how Greece did.
The ability to devalue your currency in order to increase foreign investment and stimulate the export market, thus improving the local economy, may be a power that you never want to have to use, but it's one that no sane country should ever surrender.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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