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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Mars Hill
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I imagine he will just go start another megachurch, believing everyone will follow him thereby demonstrating his ultimate rightness.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I imagine he will just go start another megachurch, believing everyone will follow him thereby demonstrating his ultimate rightness.
Probably an accurate prediction. The Driscolls of this world will always go for more—they have an appetite for destruction that knows no bounds.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Probably an accurate prediction. The Driscolls of this world will always go for more—they have an appetite for destruction that knows no bounds.
I think - for all sorts of reasons - he might find it difficult to start over from scratch. Regardless of that I think it's worth pointing out that the 'appetite for destruction' is actually a gift for building up large institutions coupled with some rather unfortunate personality traits. I don't think - at the end of the day - that the main issue was that he grew Mars Hill to 10K people.
OTOH. I shall again say that I think it's ironic that a lot of the YRR crowd who very much bought into the idea of functional idolatry (that the self identification of yourself with one of your roles could itself be a form of idolatry) also also the sort of people who would byline themselves as "Preacher, Husband, Father".
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
The statement on Mars Hill's site is telling. In it, the Board of Overseers say that, while Driscoll's been "domineering," he's not unfit to be a pastor, as he's "never been charged with any immorality, illegality or heresy"!
That's what I meant when, upthread, I said that Mars Hill has many enablers just as guilty as their erstwhile bossman. If their bar for a pastor is set so low that passing a few narrow, legalistic criteria allows you to leap it, in Driscoll they got what they deserved.
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I doubt however that many mainline denominations set the bar much higher in 'defrocking' someone already recognised as a clergyperson. Once you're in you have to behave very badly to be turfed out.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Oh no doubt. As shown by the shitstorm at TEC's General Theological Seminary, mainline churches have no reason to be complacent.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
Interestingly, the updated Mars Hill bylaws (that started a lot of the consolidation) state:
"Resignation is possibly only be a member of the Church who is in good standing and who is not under any disciplinary action."
It appears in this case this hasn't been enforced, as the response from the elders make it sound like MD has also resigned membership (whilst still being under disciplinary action)
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Arminian
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# 16607
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Posted
There seem to be quite a few ministries who use the 'promise' of helping the poor to leaver in more funds. Then the orphanages don't get built, the kids school funds don't get paid ....
That's about as low as you can get. Fraudsters have more integrity.
At no point has Driscoll told us what he earnt at Mars Hill. Shame on the brainwashed congregation that let him get away with it.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
In his resignation letter, he fires a few parting shots at those who laid charges
"Sorrynotsorry."
Every apology I've ever heard Driscoll issue runs about like "Yeah, I'm sorry: sorry you're such an over-emotional pansy!"
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
In his resignation letter, he fires a few parting shots at those who laid charges
"Sorrynotsorry."
Every apology I've ever heard Driscoll issue runs about like "Yeah, I'm sorry: sorry you're such an over-emotional pansy!"
Exactly. Which is of course (like it needs to be spelled out) not an apology.
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Narcissism.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
There seem to be quite a few ministries who use the 'promise' of helping the poor to leaver in more funds. Then the orphanages don't get built, the kids school funds don't get paid ....
I can't speak to MH's intent, but it's basic good practice in most places to ring fence funds that have been donated for a specific purpose, and only use them for that purpose. You are right that we should be very wary when this doesn't happen.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
There seem to be quite a few ministries who use the 'promise' of helping the poor to leaver in more funds. Then the orphanages don't get built, the kids school funds don't get paid ....
I can't speak to MH's intent, but it's basic good practice in most places to ring fence funds that have been donated for a specific purpose, and only use them for that purpose. You are right that we should be very wary when this doesn't happen.
That was what made me suspicious about the fund in the first place. Not that they cancelled the proposed conference, but the way the whole fund was a grab-bag of unrelated things (including things that should have already be part of Driscoll's salary, like a sermon series). So that if you want to give to one thing (church planting in the developing world) you have to give to the others (paying Driscoll to write a book he'll undoubtedly get a hefty advance/royalties for).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Not that they cancelled the proposed conference, but the way the whole fund was a grab-bag of unrelated things (including things that should have already be part of Driscoll's salary, like a sermon series).
Additionally it appears that the practice was for him to keep copyright of all his sermons.
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Well, how hilariously ironic is that?!
He's welcome to keep them ....who in their right mind would want to plagiarise ;)anything he said in them?
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Well, how hilariously ironic is that?!
He's welcome to keep them ....who in their right mind would want to plagiarise ;)anything he said in them?
The point is more that in the commercial world (to which megachurches often compare themselves), such work would be classed as 'work for hire', especially in the case where it was commissioned for a particular purpose and thus ownership would lie with the church.
In this case the fee was used to pay essentially for limited use of the sermon series.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Well, how hilariously ironic is that?!
He's welcome to keep them ....who in their right mind would want to plagiarise ;)anything he said in them?
The point is more that in the commercial world (to which megachurches often compare themselves), such work would be classed as 'work for hire', especially in the case where it was commissioned for a particular purpose and thus ownership would lie with the church.
In this case the fee was used to pay essentially for limited use of the sermon series.
And it means that when he then publishes a collection of his sermons, he keeps all the royalties. This is a practice that's currently under debate, and practices vary. But what seems clearly over the line for me is that Driscoll appears to be not just double-dipping but triple dipping here: for the same "sermon-writing" work, he would get paid three times: once from his church salary, once from the special fund-raising effort, and once again in the book royalties.
The man has chutzpah, you gotta give him that. Think what the results might have been if he'd used his power for good.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
But even in his shame Driscoll has created a legacy that many more honourable men would love to have: successful church plants that have flourished. These churches, in their turn, have benefited from his vision and vigour, but have managed to break free from him now that his flaws have become a liability. They don't have to put up with him in his crabby and blinkered old age!
This looks like a reasonable outcome in several respects.
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Well, the big issue there of course is what kind of church and disciples has he left as a legacy? All churches are flawed, being made up of flawed people, but if his leadership style is shot through Mars Hill's character, it could take sometime to shift.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
These churches, in their turn, have benefited from his vision and vigour, but have managed to break free from him now that his flaws have become a liability.
Against this you have the 1000s of people who walked out when the bylaws were changed in 2007, a large number of whom are no longer in a church of any sort.
Plus all the people who have walked out disillusioned from Mars Hill since, plus those in all the various Mars Hill plants (most of whom were actually satellite campuses with video feeds). Not to mention the fact that most of the campuses will probably have to close given their financial troubles.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
So would you say that his church plants have in fact failed, then? Do they have a future?
Regarding the people who've dropped out of his churches and no longer attend any church, I understand that this can be a problem for any religious movement that grows very quickly, and is a particular problem of revivalistic enterprises. In this case, it's to be hoped that church leaders here can take this opportunity to show that they've sincerely repented of their wrongdoing and want to make amends. Perhaps they need a jubilee period for cleansing and rebirth.
I always think that the video feed practice is a bit odd, and of course I'm not used to it. But I presume that these churches have started using 'real people' to preach now that Driscoll isn't available on a screen.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I always think that the video feed practice is a bit odd, and of course I'm not used to it. But I presume that these churches have started using 'real people' to preach now that Driscoll isn't available on a screen.
The video feed model is fairly common here in the US among large megachurches. It has it's pluses and minuses. It does allow churches to grow quickly and honestly, keeps overhead down-- something I think we should think about more and more. On the minus, though, it seems to feed into exactly the sort of "celebrity pastor" syndrome that made Driscoll happen. But still I'd say that's the least of the problems affecting the Acts 29 network.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So would you say that his church plants have in fact failed, then? Do they have a future?
Regarding the people who've dropped out of his churches and no longer attend any church, I understand that this can be a problem for any religious movement that grows very quickly, and is a particular problem of revivalistic enterprises. In this case, it's to be hoped that church leaders here can take this opportunity to show that they've sincerely repented of their wrongdoing and want to make amends. Perhaps they need a jubilee period for cleansing and rebirth.
Certainly the highs and lows are characteristic of a revivalistic campaign, and honestly, of more established mainline churches as well.
I don't know the answer to your question about the success/failure of the plants, or even of the main "mother" church. My biggest concern is that what they have been fed is what Paul would call a "false gospel". Driscoll's version of "muscular Christianity"-- his vision of Jesus ("I can't worship a Savior I can beat up") seems so far from the real Jesus of the gospels (who was, Mark, beaten up, if memory serves-- for your sake and the sake of all us sinners). So I just don't know what to expect in the aftermath. I think your call for a time of cleansing and rebirth is a good one-- not just for Mars Hill and the Acts 29 network but for all of us (especially us evangelicals) who watched it happen. A time to pray for those now leaderless souls-- that God would, in his mercy, send a witness to the real Christ of the gospels.
That probably sounds a bit full of myself, huh? I dunno-- it's just what's on my heart at this point in time.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So would you say that his church plants have in fact failed, then? Do they have a future?
And to paraphrase Glinda, "Are you a good church, or a bad church?" Are these wheat, or basically whole sheaves of tares?
I'm not a church at all; I'm Dorothy Gale, from Kanas
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
It is finished, web page
Not unexpected, but somewhat astonishing how quickly the whole entire enterprise collapsed once Driscoll is gone. So many lessons here, most of which have already been mentioned. But the central one to me is the futility of the celebrity pastor model.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Ah, well. Damage limitation, perhaps? From my British perspective, it's impressive that a number of the congregations are still going to continue in existence, even though their identity and structure will change.
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
The cynic in me says that dissolving the corporate/governance structure is an attempt to prevent future litigation. Presumably it would be harder to get money out of an entity that longer exists. Rest assured the elders and Mark and anybody who can be held liable are probably transferring their assets..... to their wives... I'd love to see Mrs Driscoll walk with all Mark's moula.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Rest assured the elders and Mark and anybody who can be held liable are probably transferring their assets..... to their wives... I'd love to see Mrs Driscoll walk with all Mark's moula.
Just bear in mind Commandment 7. I think this comment is OK, and it made me smile, but a bit further down this speculative road (as opposed to things known from the public domain) gets us into the grey area of potentially libelous derogatory comment, rather than legitimate criticism.
Barnabas62, Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
The Board of Accountability took pains to say that Driscoll was not disqualified from Eldership. They did that for a reason. I think that the dissolution of Mars Hill from a single multi-site church to a number of independent but loosely affiliated 'church plants' is a clever way of leaving the door open for Driscoll to return as an elder of a local church with a Mars Hill provenance or, as I think is more likely, plant a new church - under a new set of by-laws - which is loosely connected to the former Mars Hill churches.
[ 01. November 2014, 21:18: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
...probably in California.
now that was just mean.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
"Ultimately, the success of this plan, and the future viability of each of these new local churches rest solely on all of us continuing to be faithful in supporting Jesus’ mission through our attendance and continued giving," wrote Bruskas
Yeah, keep your bum on that seat and keep giving us money. Right, that's the most important part of being faithful in supporting Jesus' mission.
I don't think so.
[ 01. November 2014, 22:30: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
...probably in California.
now that was just mean.
I thought it was funny! And even funnier when I found they've already set up shop in Orange County.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
...probably in California.
now that was just mean.
I thought it was funny! And even funnier when I found they've already set up shop in Orange County.
Nothing that happens in Orange County surprises me.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I love this website! That's a very funny series of posts. Made me laugh, anyway.
But seriously, folks. Is there something in the water in Orange County? How about the New Inspirational Church of Hunter Pence?
Nope. Probably the wrong team ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Well Driscoll is best mates with Steven Furtick now...
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I also wonder what people like Rick Warren will make of all this- as far as I recall Saddleback church is in Orange County isn't it?
Is this good or bad news for the mega church model in California?
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I also wonder what people like Rick Warren will make of all this- as far as I recall Saddleback church is in Orange County isn't it?
Is this good or bad news for the mega church model in California?
Any expansion of Driscoll's false gospel is bad news IMHO. But in terms of the mega church model, it's pretty well established here-- particularly in Orange Co. This one little blip isn't going to change much in that regard.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
The problem with the shutdown of Mars Hill is that is proves Driscoll's premise - that he was the brand of the church and without him it was nothing. Hence why the church needed to support juking the stats for his "New York Times bestseller" and paying him $850,000 a year.
All this closure does is open the door for Driscoll to emerge, as from a chrysalis, in a year or two with Mars Hill v2.0. It seemed odd to me that they clarified that none of the remnant groups will be allowed to use the MH name.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
It wasn't his stated premise - there has always been a lot of rhetoric about "Jesus is our Senior Pastor"
Not according to this story
quote:
Before the exodus of the Mars Hill creative department a couple of years ago, Mark Driscoll gave a speech in the Ballard Paradox theater which is commonly referred to as the ‘I am the brand’ speech. In that speech he advocated that marketing and communication be centered on his personality, name, and brand (in lieu of the name of the great Shepherd himself).
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
It wasn't his stated premise - there has always been a lot of rhetoric about "Jesus is our Senior Pastor"
Not according to this story
That story doesn't contradict what I just said that there has always been a lot of rhetoric about 'Jesus is our Senior Pastor'. The following has been largely unchanged over the last few years:
https://marshill.com/leadership
"
Leadership at Mars Hill Church starts with
JESUS
It’s his church, and he’s our senior pastor. Underneath the guidance of Jesus are leaders who are simply qualified Christians who follow Jesus and encourage others to follow him as well. At Mars Hill Church, our formal leadership structure involves elders, deacons, and church members. "
https://marshill.com/governance
"What does it mean that Jesus is our “senior pastor”?"
There are numerous references to this in MDs various sermons over the years.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I'm still not clear as to what you are disagreeing with me on. Driscoll claimed he was the brand of Mars Hill. The church has fallen over with him gone. Does that not validate his claim in some way?
That they publicly said JC was their senior pastor is irrelevant as publicly MH said a lot that has turned out to be lies.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm still not clear as to what you are disagreeing with me on. Driscoll claimed he was the brand of Mars Hill. The church has fallen over with him gone. Does that not validate his claim in some way?
Yes, it may validate the idea in the "I am the brand" speech. I presume you aren't suggesting that this then excuses things like the mass book buying.
Or maybe it doesn't, maybe it's just the collective actions of Mars Hill leadership as a whole that has led to the brand being seen as toxic.
I mean, his claim might be empirically true, whilst simultaneously not capturing enough of the picture to be an actual useful truth.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Yes, it may validate the idea in the "I am the brand" speech. I presume you aren't suggesting that this then excuses things like the mass book buying.
It certainly doesn't excuse them, but it explains them. If they all bought into the idea that he was the church, then they could rationalize the silly things that were done to appease him.
The fact that members left and money dried up after Driscoll's departure says a lot about what the membership felt about the necessity of his presence in the church.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
The fact that members left and money dried up after Driscoll's departure says a lot about what the membership felt about the necessity of his presence in the church.
Well, again correlation doesn't imply causation. Drop offs in giving could also be a symptom of restructuring and the insecurity this brings about - after all, why give if your church may not be around in a few months time. Plus even the most trusting member knows by now earmarked money was often used for different purposes - which presumably doesn't go down well in times of austerity.
but going back to your post, if it were true, it would really amount to saying 'I'd rather Mars Hill continues to be around in its current form because that results in less collateral damage over time".
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Leadership at Mars Hill Church starts with
JESUS
It’s his church, and he’s our senior pastor. Underneath the guidance of Jesus are leaders who are simply qualified Christians who follow Jesus and encourage others to follow him as well. At Mars Hill Church, our formal leadership structure involves elders, deacons, and church members. "
https://marshill.com/governance
"What does it mean that Jesus is our “senior pastor”?"
There are numerous references to this in MDs various sermons over the years.
Honestly, the way I hear it is just a justification for all the bad behavior. Mark doesn't need any accountability or oversight because "Jesus is my boss"-- and of course, Mark is the conduit thru which Jesus communicates to the rest of us lowlifes what it is that Boss Jesus wants done.
Given Mark's statements re: Jesus himself (e.g. "I don't want to worship a Jesus I can beat up") I have my doubts that we're talking about the same "Jesus".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Well, again correlation doesn't imply causation. Drop offs in giving could also be a symptom of restructuring and the insecurity this brings about - after all, why give if your church may not be around in a few months time. Plus even the most trusting member knows by now earmarked money was often used for different purposes - which presumably doesn't go down well in times of austerity.
but going back to your post, if it were true, it would really amount to saying 'I'd rather Mars Hill continues to be around in its current form because that results in less collateral damage over time".
I would imagine people have left for a variety of reasons, but the main ones would be:
1) loved MD and feel he should have come back after his leave of absence
2) accept that MD did wrong but are unconvinced that remaining pastoral team is committed to change
3) experienced direct abuse (or friends/family did) from MH leadership and now realize it was systemic
Group 1 will follow MD to wherever he appears next (and he's already staging a comeback ). Groups 2 and 3 might possibly return to one of the former MH independent groups, depending on how they structure and run themselves.
My original thought was that, by dissolving MH and retiring its name, they are affirming MD's claim that he was the brand. That is, without MD the church is not Mars Hill. To be honest, most of the criticism of the group is because that is how most of us perceived it all along - a group that catered to MD's biases, neuroses, and, um "unique" interpretation of the Bible, to the point of giving into his unreasonable financial requests and bullying tactics. So sadly I agree with him - Mark and not Jesus was the face of Mars Hill.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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