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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Trouble at Mars Hill
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
My comment about the ordinariness of his education (that's different from his "smarts") were in the context of it being claimed he was an apex predator and that he would have had commensurate success in a field other than preaching. I'm not saying he is dumb or uneducated just that there's nothing outstanding in his educational or academic background that would make you sit up and take notice-it's ordinary.
Totally agree, but business is not about intelligence, and frankly Driscoll has clear business skills which is why we know his name and he sells lots of books (well, sort of) and makes money as a Christian personality. There are plenty of good preachers whose names we have never heard.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I didn't say that: I said legacies play a huge part (as this Standford alumnus admits and defends, as does Wall Street (as The Dartmouth bemoans). There'll always be homeless-to-Harvard inspirational stories, but as the Stanford article notes, they're very much the exception.
My point was, simply, that it's no indication of smarts if a blue collar guy from the West Coast doesn't fly over two thousand miles to attend a punishingly expensive private school. I'm surprised anyone seriously claimed that it was.
Obviously there are legacies at top universities, but I have enough experience with people who attended them who were extremely poor and had generous financial assistance, to know that your overall opinion is one based more on emotion than on reality. Of my friends who attended such universities I can think of one who grew up on a trailer park, one whose parents routinely couldn't afford to pay the electricity bill, and one who had to use her student loan to pay for her younger siblings' school supplies. If you have a low household income and are accepted to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc. you pay ZERO tuition. Even your local state university will not offer that.
Good for Mark Driscoll getting a degree from a rough background, but I do not think that means he is smart in and of itself, and given what he has done with that education - turned around and become a bully who looks down on women and anyone who criticizes him - he is not a credit to his alma mater.
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Part of the problem is the sort of apostolic church structures Driscoll and outfits like New Frontiers have. They lend themselves to individuals like Driscoll who want to dominate and intimidate critics. They can avoid any real challenges by their 'apostolic mandate' with frequent brainwashing of the congregation. The members believe that to challenge God's anointed is to challenge God and invite divine curses on themselves for being rebellious. (New Frontiers website used to have an article on their website equating rebellion with witchcraft !).
As a former member of New Frontiers I've seen it happen. Its difficult to describe the psychological hold that these narcissists get over their congregations - very cult like and impossible to challenge from within. There is also a lot of double speak going on. 'We don't lord it over you, but do as we say'...
Driscoll clearly should not be in a pulpit and isn't fit to run any Christian organisation, but he cons a lot of people just like a whole bunch of other 'star' performers who are lining their pockets.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
It means Driscoll is smart enough and more importantly driven enough to get through WSU and to reach to where he has gotten.
ps. On Stanford about 15% of incoming frosh are the first in their families to attend college. And yes legacies do have a leg up getting in though there are an awful lot of disappointed alumni parents.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
At the risk of sounding twee, I think Jesus managed to engage all sorts without adopting the values of those to whom he reached out.
Your frat guys' chant is fully representative of a certain class of inmate, too, who I wouldn't describe as downtrodden or stripped of resources, either, and I can assure you that you don't need to adopt the language of their power structure to get a hearing from them.
To elaborate on the differences, just by getting locked up, inmates have experienced the cost of living by the sword. Even if they're top dog in prison, they're always looking over their shoulder.
Privileged frat bros, ironically, have been shielded from the consequences of a dog-eat-dog existence by the very values (rule of law; restraint) they despise. There's no downside to tap.
Some are reached despite that, of course, but Driscoll was reaching the ones who hadn't been.
quote:
At the risk of shooting my "wood for the trees" argument in the foot, I think the 'extreme headship' doctrine bought into by Driscoll is just one manifestation of an entirely ungodly approach to power (or to be more charitable, misunderstanding of what "authority" means) which is likely to end up producing abusive churches.
I agree that it contributed massively at Mars Hill, but in other churches, headship theology (which I've no time for) is successfully combined with congregational government.
quote:
But even if one is some sort of headship proponent, allowing Driscoll to continue in a leadership role looks irresponsible to me. As an evangelist, if you must, maybe.
On practical grounds alone, a guy like Driscoll's driven to be in charge. If he isn't, he'll make life hell for whoever is, and end up running the show from behind the scenes. Better it be open, and he be accountable to a strong board of elders.
[ 12. August 2014, 16:36: Message edited by: Byron ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
On practical grounds alone, a guy like Driscoll's driven to be in charge (...) Better it be open, and he be accountable to a strong board of elders.
He doesn't have to be in charge of a church. Why should the church at large feel obligated to provide him with a leadership position?
You yourself said quote:
Driscoll's a dominant male who attacks anything that threatens his dominance
The epistles are full of warnings (sadly often unheeded) against giving people like him charge of a flock.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Obviously there are legacies at top universities, but I have enough experience with people who attended them who were extremely poor and had generous financial assistance, to know that your overall opinion is one based more on emotion than on reality. Of my friends who attended such universities I can think of one who grew up on a trailer park, one whose parents routinely couldn't afford to pay the electricity bill, and one who had to use her student loan to pay for her younger siblings' school supplies. If you have a low household income and are accepted to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc. you pay ZERO tuition. Even your local state university will not offer that.
Yup, and I'm not knocking the achievements of such extraordinary people. Like the Stanford piece said upthread, that's the thing, poor kids on full-ride scholarships are extraordinary. Liz Murray's own sister attended Purchase College (SUNY), which I consider just as great an achievement.
The flipside is that family wealth, and the prep schools, connections, and résumé-padding it offers, boost the chances of admission to a top school. The key thing isn't the extraordinary few, but the ordinary many. Affirmative-action exists on the understanding that gifted students are held back by their circumstances.
quote:
Good for Mark Driscoll getting a degree from a rough background, but I do not think that means he is smart in and of itself, and given what he has done with that education - turned around and become a bully who looks down on women and anyone who criticizes him - he is not a credit to his alma mater.
Of course it isn't, but bad behavior isn't a reflection on ability, as Yale's DKE chapter made abundantly clear.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
He doesn't have to be in charge of a church. Why should the church at large feel obligated to provide him with a leadership position?
You yourself said quote:
Driscoll's a dominant male who attacks anything that threatens his dominance
The epistles are full of warnings (sadly often unheeded) against giving people like him charge of a flock.
It's not a question of "should," as I was coming at it from a realpolitik POV. Whatever the church-at-large does, Driscoll's free to do as he did, and set up his own stall.
That being so, surely it's best for the church-at-large to put pressure on Mars Hill to curb its worst aspects and try to compensate those it's harmed?
If the church-at-large disowns MH so long as Driscoll's the bossman, he's free of restraints.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
It's not the church-at-large that's responsible for Driscoll - he's pretty much responsible for everything that's happened at Mars Hill all by himself.
It's reasonable to say that there's been some enabling and collusion from para-church organisations, but the congregation owns a lot of the blame. Fool me once, shame on you: fool me twice, shame on me. And they've had plenty of opportunities to bring Driscoll to heel by withdrawing their presence at MH services and withdrawing their tithing. That he's still going after everything that's been known publicly for years is astonishing.
The elders - the original ones who Driscoll sacked in his incremental power grabs - carry the most shame of all, by not blowing the whistle harder and louder.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100
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Posted
[tangent]
Pardon me for interjecting, but does anyone know of a decent text that refutes his vile, misogynistic theology? Or just a balanced, feminist alternative? I just happen to be "dealing with" a Driscoll disciple regarding how he treats his property, er, wife. Thanks.
[/tangent]
Posts: 37 | From: UK | Registered: May 2014
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
I'd start with Ephesians 5:21: 'Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.' Funnily enough, this is the verse immediately before the 'Wives, submit to your husband' verse that I presume is a central plank in the complementarian argument.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I'd start with Ephesians 5:21: 'Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.' Funnily enough, this is the verse immediately before the 'Wives, submit to your husband' verse that I presume is a central plank in the complementarian argument.
Yes. Couple it with a good scholarly commentary from your friend's theological framework, which should indicate that vs. 21 is the topic sentence of the passage, including the lack of a verb in vs. 22 (i.e. it's "borrowing" vs. 21's verb). That's not immediately obvious in an English translation, especially those that indent vs. 21 separately from vs. 22ff. But once you see that, vs. 22 becomes just one example (of 6 that follow) & you can see that what Paul is saying to wives in vs. 22 is exactly the same thing he's saying to husbands a few verses later, the same thing he's saying to parents & children, slaves & masters. The same thing he's saying to ALL Christians: be subject to one another.
Excellent advice for marriage, and for life. Hard to live, but worth it.
[ 13. August 2014, 14:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's not the church-at-large that's responsible for Driscoll - he's pretty much responsible for everything that's happened at Mars Hill all by himself.
It's reasonable to say that there's been some enabling and collusion from para-church organisations, but the congregation owns a lot of the blame. Fool me once, shame on you: fool me twice, shame on me. And they've had plenty of opportunities to bring Driscoll to heel by withdrawing their presence at MH services and withdrawing their tithing. That he's still going after everything that's been known publicly for years is astonishing.
The elders - the original ones who Driscoll sacked in his incremental power grabs - carry the most shame of all, by not blowing the whistle harder and louder.
People can invest so much in churches and in leaders, it's almost impossible to break away or judge things rationally.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Sorry cliffdweller, just seen your comment - that's interesting how the standard English translations obscure the (apparent) intent of the Greek...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Sorry cliffdweller, just seen your comment - that's interesting how the standard English translations obscure the (apparent) intent of the Greek...
Just the way they break the paragraph, really. Seems more politically motivated than anything. But the "borrowed" verb seems to indicate you really can't split the paragraph between vs. 21 and 22.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Apparently Marky Mark is losing some speaking engagements.
I wonder how long until he undergoes a remarkably short stint of counseling and therapy before resuming his regularly scheduled work load?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Just to tie a bow on it:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
sigh. Once again, this is simply not the case. Leading American evangelicals as well as the rank-and-file have been publically and consistently calling Driscoll out on his misogynistic s**t for decades (iow, not "temporarily"). While 5000 followers sounds like a lot, it is less than .0001% of the estimated 50-80 million American evangelicals who do not share or endorse his views and are not coy about saying so. He has not gotten a free pass for YEARS and his recent behavior does not suggest he's likely to get one soon. [...]
As I already noted, yes, evangelicals don't universally support Driscoll. Much of that was about tone: many evangelicals said they found Driscoll crude.
Until very recently, though, even if he was pissing out the flap with glee, the big guy was kept in the tent. Driscoll was invited to conferences, and is still down for Hillsong '15; LifeWay stocked his books until a few days ago; Christianity Today gave puff pieces (should that be fluff pieces ...) to Real Marriage. Sure, Driscoll was a bad boy, but he was our bad boy.
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Apparently Marky Mark is losing some speaking engagements.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It means Driscoll is smart enough
and he's got that other attribute - street smart. Lots on intellectual smart don't have it, lots of street smart aren't the top 2% IQ but they know how to play the game and come out on top. Business game, card shark game, how to play people and use people.
Someone back a page or two asked how much he makes. This page says $900,000. (I assume book profits and conference speaking fees are additional, but I could be wrong). This long discussion says everyone who wants to become a church member must buy his 465 page book called: "Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe".
(What's a fair income for leader of a big church? No idea. I remember being impressed couple decades ago when I think it was Jamie Buckingham said his books sold well enough to support his family so he stopped taking any salary from his church.)
That first web page mentions a big fund raiser for foreign missions, but the money "disappeared" into the general fund, and this article says a recent major fund raiser was for a project that has now been cancelled.
Transparency is so important, I'm surprised how many independent churches resist it.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Transparency is so important, I'm surprised how many independent churches resist it.
In the UK churches with an income of over £100K (soon to be £25k) have to register as charities of they want tax relief. Their accounts and annual reports are then open to public view online.
[code]
[ 20. August 2014, 06:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Transparency is so important, I'm surprised how many independent churches resist it.
In the UK churches with an income of over £100K (soon to be £25k) have to register as charities of they want tax relief. Their accounts and annual reports are then open to public view online.
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How detailed are the public accounts required to be?
Do they have to disclose the head pastor's salary, or just an entry for total payroll over the course of the year?
I seem to recall from earlier discussions that nobody was quite sure how much Terry Virgo from New Frontiers makes annually, and he's in the UK.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Based on ours, I would say they don't have to be that detailed. All our staff costs are lumped into pools, partly so there is a minor level of privacy for the pastor(s).
The diaconate know who gets what, and the membership have a crude idea that can be firmed up with a bit of effort and paying of attention, but pastor and admin salaries are quite deliberately not line items.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Charities in the UK have to disclose number of staff and staff costs, plus any employees earning more than £60k shown in relatively narrow bands - £60-70, £70-80k. I don't think such disclosure is common in the us however.
Some churchs have separate charity status and therefore prepare and publish accounts on the charity commission website while others are set up differently, Elim appears to produce accounts for the whole denomination.
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
To use the example quoted If Terry Virgo was getting paid vast amounts by NF (i.e simial to the figures alleged for Mark Driscoll)I would think it would be pretty easy to see from charity accounts.
If someone is doing multiple roles they could theoretically get paid close to the 60k threshold by a number of charities without this being so obvious however.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
To use the example quoted If Terry Virgo was getting paid vast amounts by NF (i.e simial to the figures alleged for Mark Driscoll)I would think it would be pretty easy to see from charity accounts.
This is a bit of a tangent here, but back in the day New Frontiers gave a large sum of money to the charity run by what was then Terry Virgo's home church, Church of Christ the King. Terry Virgo was, it would seem, paid by the latter.
Therefore a cursory glance at the NFI accounts did not indicate how much its leader was being paid at all: he did not figure on the line where the charity declared how many (anonymous) people were paid over a certain amount; the figure was lost in the amount made over to CCK.
When I looked into this in 2007 (PDF, the links in the document are broken these days I think), the CCK declaration listed the number of people on staff earning over a certain figure, but did not give their names. One could deduce that Terry was one of them, though. Not in the Mark Driscoll league from what's reported above, but more than I might have imagined at the time.
There could be a number of honest explanations for this, but it was definitely the case that a cursory glance at the NFI accounts in no way revealed Terry's salary, and that (at least when I looked) neither did the CCK accounts.
Royalties have been mentioned upthread. In addition, for people with a large proportion of itinerant ministry, you also need to factor in "love gifts", travel, accommodations, hospitality and so on. Again, one could discuss the ethics of all this for a long time, but the fact is revenue and perks like this do not show up on the books.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
(What's a fair income for leader of a big church? No idea. I remember being impressed couple decades ago when I think it was Jamie Buckingham said his books sold well enough to support his family so he stopped taking any salary from his church.)
Rick Warren has done the same, I believe he even paid back salary he'd earned in the past in addition to no longer taking one from the church.
I have no problem with a church leader making money - even a lot of money - if from selling books to the public, going on the speaking circuit, hosting television shows, etc. My only expectation is that they use that money in a manner consistent with Christian values on serving the needy and not putting stumbling blocks in people's way. You cannot ask your congregation to be sacrificial in giving when you are not.
I do have a serious problem with church leaders who make a lot of money from member tithes, suspicious financial practices (e.g. using church funds to buy a house but then keeping the profit when they sell the house - I've seen this before), or forcing members to buy their books and other media(the Scientology model).
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It means Driscoll is smart enough
and he's got that other attribute - street smart. Lots on intellectual smart don't have it, lots of street smart aren't the top 2% IQ but they know how to play the game and come out on top. Business game, card shark game, how to play people and use people. [...]
Absolutely. Illustrates the pitfalls of defining "smart." Driscoll's achieved his desired ends masterfully; even if it falls apart now, he's had a heckuva run.
Good that he's losing speaking engagements over this. It's the kind of intervention that he should've got from his fellow elders back in '07.
Hopefully he can get his shit together and start making amends, such as he can.
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Its the cult like aspect of these outfits I dislike. Tithe your income or God will curse you, don't ask what the leaders take in salary, they are your spiritual superiors and to question them is to question God.
Many in these congregations are so brainwashed they won't dare stand up and complain. Its a church system that is ideal for corrupt leaders.
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
MD is stepping down for 6 weeks, while the formal charges against him are being investigated. Praise God! Hopefully they'll take them seriously and see him permanently disbarred from Christian ministry in any serious Church. More likely they won't, but still, someone is taking this seriously, and that's more than has happened for a VERY long time.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thanks for keeping us informed. Do you have a source you can link to?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Is that a misprint - $200,000 paid to a PR firm to bump his books up the best seller list? Gulp.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thanks for the link, MarsmanTJ. I had absolutely no idea Driscoll had previously faced allegations of... plagiarism.
[ 24. August 2014, 18:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Mark will be back in 6 weeks. I've been following scandals like this since I was a little boy. The self suspension is one of the tactics in the ride out the scandal playbook.
What the people of Mars Hill Seattle have to decide is if Mars Hill exists without Mark Driscoll. Pastor leave churches all the time. Another pastor comes and the ministry of the church continues. Most neutral bystanders would agree that its time for Mark Hill to leave Mars Hill Seattle. If Driscoll leaves and another pastor is called, Mars Hill is a real church. If Driscoll stays, Mars Hill Seattle is just a theatre hosting the Mark Driscoll show.
I'm not saying Mark Driscoll should leave the ministry. At minimum, the guy should leave Mars Hill and take a few months off before starting over with another church or ministry. I doubt Mark Driscoll is capable of that. I imagine he sees Mars Hill as belonging to him for life.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If Driscoll leaves and another pastor is called, Mars Hill is a real church. If Driscoll stays, Mars Hill Seattle is just a theatre hosting the Mark Driscoll show.
I'm not saying Mark Driscoll should leave the ministry. At minimum, the guy should leave Mars Hill and take a few months off before starting over with another church or ministry. I doubt Mark Driscoll is capable of that. I imagine he sees Mars Hill as belonging to him for life.
This rings profoundly true to me; very well put, sir! I wish I'd thought of the phrase 'just a theatre hosting the Mark Driscoll show'...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Mark will be back in 6 weeks. I've been following scandals like this since I was a little boy. The self suspension is one of the tactics in the ride out the scandal playbook.
I fear you're right and pray you're wrong.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is that a misprint - $200,000 paid to a PR firm to bump his books up the best seller list? Gulp.
correction: $200,000 paid from church funds to a PR firm to bump his books up the best seller list.
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If Driscoll leaves and another pastor is called, Mars Hill is a real church. If Driscoll stays, Mars Hill Seattle is just a theatre hosting the Mark Driscoll show.
I too find this an elegantly worded truth. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
[ 24. August 2014, 22:01: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Charities in the UK have to disclose number of staff and staff costs, plus any employees earning more than £60k shown in relatively narrow bands - £60-70, £70-80k. I don't think such disclosure is common in the us however.
Some churchs have separate charity status and therefore prepare and publish accounts on the charity commission website while others are set up differently, Elim appears to produce accounts for the whole denomination.
As far as I understand churches with turnover under 100k can come under the cover of the denomination - as a local branch of an organisation (we as Methodists submit accounts onto the next layer up etc and charity commission could check them if wanted) Over the 100k they have to get their own charity number and will therefore be listed on the charity commission website
ETA - ministers are not directed appointed/employed by local methodist churches and so that info shows up elsewhere in Methodist records.
[ 25. August 2014, 11:01: Message edited by: Avila ]
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
The thing is though, there's always another opportunistic con artist ready to spring up and part fools from their money. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Just catching up. I wonder if Nicky Gumbel and others at HTB will go back and remove all those Driscol quotes from their books? Driscol has been a monster for well over a decade but the Evo circle(s) will simply not criticise their own. It was clear back then just what a sinister bastard Driscol was, but the HTB crowd love those pithy quotes and his he-man posturing.
I hope that Steven Furtick, John Piper, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyers and Joel Osteen are also for the chop. Their zeal for for themselves knows no bounds.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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3M Matt
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# 1675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I hope that Steven Furtick, John Piper, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyers and Joel Osteen are also for the chop. Their zeal for for themselves knows no bounds.
K.
That's a really interesting list of names because they are a million miles apart from each other.
Joel Osteen is not, in my view discernably anything other than a motivational speaker with a vaguely Christianized veneer over his "positive thinking" message. However, he seems like a nice chap..sort of.
Myers and Furtick - They are both very much of a Word of Faith Background. Myers I find dull. Furtick comes over as..well..annoying.
Rick Warren is fairly middle of the road, Piper on the other hand is a pretty conservative/reformed/calvanist kinda guy...a totally different kettle of fish.
What makes the Driscoll situation different is that theologically he is in the Reformed/conservative stream, whereas most of these kind of "Personality cult" types who end up being shamed are in the hyper-charismatic Word of Faith stream.
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
What makes the Driscoll situation different is that theologically he is in the Reformed/conservative stream, whereas most of these kind of "Personality cult" types who end up being shamed are in the hyper-charismatic Word of Faith stream.
I'm not really sure what is the significance of the distinction you are making, but fwiw, Driscoll is also charismatic-- that was the basis of his kerfuffle with John McArthur (other than two Alpha males posturing over who's bigger, of course...) There are both Calvinist and Wesleyan charismatics, Driscoll happens to be in the Calvinist camp (although, as noted above, not particularly Reformed).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Over the weekend Mars Hill begins closing branches and laying off some staff
Pastor Mark Dunford of the Portland branch of Mars Hill wrote that he was let go from the church after signing his name to a letter, jointly written by nine pastors, calling for the resignation of Mars Hill founder Mark Driscoll.
LOL the headline on that first link is, mmm, indescribable.
"...citing financial difficulties caused by “negative media attention”" puts the blame for the crisis where it belongs, on the media, not on the people doing the things criticized?
I hate the term "let go" when what is meant is "involuntarily terminated" or better yet "fired."
When does the six week break end?
[ 09. September 2014, 16:42: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
quote:
Just catching up. I wonder if Nicky Gumbel and others at HTB will go back and remove all those Driscol quotes from their books?
It will be a bit embarrassing but if something is true it remains true regardless of who said it. Conversely if it wasn't true before hand it doesn't matter how saintly the person who said it was.
We haven't removed the psalms from the bible even though the man who they are attributed to was guilty of adultery and murder.
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
There are also reasons to suspect that his views on male/female equality were a bit primitive to.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This is sounding terribly reminiscent of recent Cwmbran discussions.
Just because David was an adulterer and murderer and God used him anyway doesn't mean those behaviours are somehow made acceptable.
Rather than Gumbel and co. retrospectively airbrushing Driscoll out of existence (should they choose to), I'd much rather they took a stand to distance themselves from his conduct. I'm not holding my breath though.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
I thought Komensky was suggesting that HTB should remove any Driscoll quotes from their books.
Exactly the airbrushing that you were opposing and I was saying was unnecessary on the basis that if the quotes are true they can remain almost regardless of whatever Driscol has been up to (ok there are some limits of taste - like I would suggest removing quotes by Jimmy Saville or Hitler or Stalin etc if you are using them to support your position...) while if they are false they shouldn't be included in the first place.
To be honest I am not keen on Driscoll at all. I don't respect his style, I don't agree with his views on gender plus tend to think Calvinism has got the wrong end of the stick about God (although there are plenty of Calvinists who I would be happy to listen to on topics other than TULIP)
I was surprised actually to hear from Komensky that HTB were close to him - he's about the only evangelical leader I have ever heard dissed at a New Wine event (I remember Mary Pytches dismissing Driscoll's criticism of the Shack with a very off-hand comment that suggested she didn't take him seriously enough to think it worthwhile to engage with what he was saying) so I assumed he wasn't popular in Anglican charismatic circles.
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