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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: The Gospel of John, a verse at a time.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Suggested System.
1/ You can say “stop” at any point.
2/ If you say “stop” you then have control of the thread (not in a hostly sense) until the reason you have stopped the thread is clear in your mind and tangents have been rounded up.
3/ You then post the next verse.
4/ The gap between verses must be at least 12 hours.
5/ If a verse has passed you may not stop the thread to go back to it, though you may (of course) quote it or future verses in your posts.
6/ You can stop the thread for any reason. Clarification, a request for a translation, to make a point, to share an insight, whatever. Once you have stopped the thread it is up to you to start it.
7/ There is no rush.
8/ For ease we are using this linked translation : Bible Gateway NIV
[ 29. August 2015, 01:46: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
John 1.1
quote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Thanks, Pyx_e.
Are we supposed to comment on these verses? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
If we do are we then responsible for starting the thread again.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Freddy if you have something to say or ask then post " Stop " and include in your post your question or response and let the study begin as others comment. When you (the stopee) are satisfied that your point has been covered simply post the next verse.
The twelve hour suggestion only applies to an verse that does not elicit a response. If a verse is generating posts long let it continue.
So at present I have the bible study, if this verse does not elicit a Stop I will post the next verse. If someone posts stop they then have the responsibilty to post the next verse (or verses) until someone else stops it, The stopper is in charge of the bible study until someone else says Stop .
P
[ 27. May 2006, 14:45: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
OK. Well, there's plenty to say about the first verse.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
John 1.1
quote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The concept of "the Word" is fascinating to me. It is a concept that runs throughout the Bible.
The Word was with God and the Word was God. So Jesus was in essence with God from the start.
To my mind, this explains who Jesus is and what His mission was. The Word is God's Divine Truth. So Jesus came to bring light, or that truth, to the human race. This makes Him really simply God.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
Am I correct in thinking that on this verse rests the premise of Jesus' co-equality with God, also Jesus' pre-existence before the incarnation ?
(What a wonderful idea for a thread, thanks Pyx_e.)
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Nil, nada, rien
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jinglebellrocker
Shipmate
# 8493
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Posted
Stop
I think anyone vaguely familiar with this passage knows that the Word refers to Jesus. As far as I know, that is the first time in scripture Jesus was given this title (with the possible exception of Luke 1:1-4). What did John mean by it? Was it as if in the beginning God said, "Let there be light!" and Jesus was the part of God that actually performed the creative action that made it happen?
What connection to these passages have with the Word, if any?
Luke 1:2
Luke 8:21
Luke 11:28
They use the same Greek word logos, but are they talking about the same thing?
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For I know that my Redeemer lives,and at the last he will stand upon the earth. - Job 19:25
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
jinglebellrocker
I dont think they are. My Greek/English expository dictionary points to LOGOS meaning
1) the expression of thought
. . a) embodying an idea
. . b) a saying or statement
. . c) discourse, speech or instruction
2) The Personal Word, a title of the Son of God
Much needs to be derived from the context.
I think the natural interpretation is that the Luke illustrations all belong to category 1) above. But there is a complication in that, by theological reflection, Jesus is seen very much as the "living Word" and "the Word made flesh". The Word Alive, if you like. The issue for interpretation is always that the Word was made flesh and we should discourage ourselves from turning him back into "mere" word (or words).
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by noelper:
Am I correct in thinking that on this verse rests the premise of Jesus' co-equality with God, also Jesus' pre-existence before the incarnation ?
(What a wonderful idea for a thread, thanks Pyx_e.)
Not entirely on this verse; compare Phillipians 2:5-7:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
quote:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
The NIV clarifies my understanding; 'in the nature' = in the image of God, as we all are made.
Agreed that the alternative version is consistent with Jesus' equality and pre-existence: but this is inconsisistent with the rest of scripture.
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Nil, nada, rien
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Nature and Image are not the same thing, not even close.
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
Oh ? Is this a translation issue ?
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Nil, nada, rien
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Good question. but it might be derailing this thread -- I'll start a new one.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Jesus is seen very much as the "living Word" and "the Word made flesh". The Word Alive, if you like. The issue for interpretation is always that the Word was made flesh and we should discourage ourselves from turning him back into "mere" word (or words).
I agree, Barnabas. We also need to be careful not to divorce what Jesus was too much from what "the Word" actually is.
A curious aspect of "the Word" is its role in creation. As we will soon read:
quote:
John 1.3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
The reference seems to be to the fact that God is depicted in Genesis as creating by speaking:
quote:
Genesis 1.2 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light….
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
This is described by the Psalmist as creation by the Word:
quote:
Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
How does "the Word" create?
I think that we find a clue in Isaiah:
quote:
Isaiah 55.10 “ For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."
The Word of God creates. It also accomplishes what He sends it to do. God's words are not just sayings. They are described as something that forms and gives life to the world. This is in keeping with the way that Jesus spoke about His own words:
quote:
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Jesus seems to mean that His words will change the world, restoring its life. The imagery used is also about bringing light where there is darkness.
So Jesus as the Word of God is the divine truth from God that created and formed the world and everything in it. Everything was created by and according to the divine truth from the divine love.
It also seems to me that most people think that, if anything is going to change and improve the world, the truth is going to do it. That is, that advances in our understanding of how the world works is what holds the key to improving our future.
This is what I see John saying in this first verse of the first chapter.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
I have trouble with something not having a beginning, not to mention an ending...
Jesus, the physical human-form expression of God, was for ever 'with' God(The Word)and participated in forming everything that is. But what kind of identity or substance was Jesus before he got born of a human mother? What was he doing all that infinity of time before he was conceived? I like to think of Jesus as the part of God that does have substance, not just an abstract idea of "the Word". Hard to visualize the Body and Blood pre-existing the physical world.
I'll go away quietly if this is all too elementary for this discussion. Thanks.
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
Doesn't "Logos" refer to the "Divine Reason" of God?
In other words, the creative "stuff" of the universe, the glue - so to speak - that holds it all together? The Cosmic Order.
As in, the Great Antiphon, "O Sapientia": "O Wisdom, which camest out of the mouth of the most High, and reachest from one end to another, mightily and sweetly ordering all things: Come and teach us the way of prudence."
Isn't that what "logos" refers to?
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
I think there is a distinction betwen the logos of John 1:1 and the personification of wisdom that we see in Proverbs.
The logos of John 1 is co-eternal with God.The wisdom is the first of the created order in Proverbs and 'works' with God in the rest of the act of creation, but nevertheless is a part of the created order.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B-4 Swine:
Jesus, the physical human-form expression of God, was for ever 'with' God(The Word)and participated in forming everything that is. But what kind of identity or substance was Jesus before he got born of a human mother? What was he doing all that infinity of time before he was conceived? I like to think of Jesus as the part of God that does have substance, not just an abstract idea of "the Word". Hard to visualize the Body and Blood pre-existing the physical world.
The nature of the Word as God is that of an immaterial Spirit. This Divine nature subsists in the Person of the Son. A person is a subject relating to themselves and to other beings, in this sense God can be spoken of as being three Persons. The Person of the Divine Logos did however assume human nature as Jesus. So we have human nature and Divine nature subsiting in the same Divine Person. Jesus had human nature but properly speaking was not a human person, but a Divine Person. This does not diminish His humanity, it elevates it, for divinization does not destroy the human person, but perfects it. Jesus acts with perfect human-ness precisely because He is a Divine Person.
Now, the fleshy body of Jesus clearly had a limited temporal existence: it was born and died within 30-odd years, two milennia ago. The union of human nature and Divine nature in the Divine Person of the Son could only have been temporal and temporary. Indeed, it could have occured only for five minutes of Jesus' life, rather than His whole life. But it was not so. We believe that from conception as fleshy body and human soul, during the three days in the tomb as human soul, and since then as resurrected spiritual body and human soul, Jesus human nature subsists in the Divine Person of the Son.
Finally, the question whether we should consider Jesus' human nature to have been present in eternity is a difficult one. I think Jesus' ascensions says that yes, in resurrected form this is so. Here it gets confusing, because eternity is so hard to imagine. Picture two parallel lines. One is infinite and lit up entirely, that's eternity. The other line is finite and dark but has a little light moving along it. That's time. Jesus ascension is like forging a little link between those two parallel lines, when the light of time passes a specific spot on the dark line. Along that link, Jesus' human nature "escapes" the dark line into the lit line. Now we can say that because that line is all light, Jesus' human nature is present throughout eternity. In the sense of being parallel to the time line within the eternal line, his human nature is present at a time before it was even created! On the other hand, we can locate the link along the dark line of time and we can say "That's when it happened, not earlier, not later."
The really nice thing is of course that this is our future! Jesus was only the first of many links between the lines, He came so that we would be able to enter eternal life, too. Or in other words: you are going to witness creation from eternity, if you die in Christ. That's certainly something to look forward to...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
I find greatest understanding by contrasting human words with those of God.
Whereas ours are ephemeral, rooted in the hatred and lies which lead to death; God's Word is Life-giving, up-building in Love, and a-historical.
That Word was the Beginning, Middle and End.
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Nil, nada, rien
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Carabao
Apprentice
# 11146
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Posted
I think John is interacting with contemporary philosophical thought. Mr Wikipedia says, "The Stoics understood Logos as the animating power of the universe". Its very interesting that John should use a technical term from a worldview which he disagrees with. That's why sometimes 'Logos' is translated as Tao in Chinese Bibles.
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rewboss
Shipmate
# 566
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carabao:
I think John is interacting with contemporary philosophical thought. Mr Wikipedia says, "The Stoics understood Logos as the animating power of the universe". Its very interesting that John should use a technical term from a worldview which he disagrees with. That's why sometimes 'Logos' is translated as Tao in Chinese Bibles.
Yes, indeed, the Stoics knew "the Word" as the original creative power that brought the cosmos into being. John takes this idea and, rather like Paul talking about the "unknown god", says, "Now let me tell you all about this 'Word' and what it really is." He combines Stoic philosophy with Hebrew theology very elegantly: he begins with the words of Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning..." -- and goes on to suggest that the "Word" is what God spoke when he created the cosmos; and that in Jesus of Nazereth, the "Word" is expressed in human form. It's significant that in John's Gospel, miracles (which he calls "signs") are nearly always accompanied by sermons. Jesus's sermons are "the Word", and proof of that is that this "Word" demonstrates extraordinary powers, even to the extent of restoring life -- that which the Word had initially created.
Incidentally, the signs are only that: signs that Jesus is indeed the embodiement of the Word. They are used as a springboard to illustrate something profound -- the healing of a blind man is embedded in a discourse about the spiritual significance of light. Jesus, the Word, came to preach, not to perform cheap magic tricks.
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The latest from the world of rewboss
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rewboss:
He combines Stoic philosophy with Hebrew theology very elegantly: he begins with the words of Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning..." -- and goes on to suggest that the "Word" is what God spoke when he created the cosmos; and that in Jesus of Nazereth, the "Word" is expressed in human form.
Thank you, Rewboss. I love how you put this. It nicely answers Pearl B-4 Swine's question as to where Jesus was before the Incarnation.
quote:
Originally posted by rewboss:
Jesus, the Word, came to preach, not to perform cheap magic tricks.
It is remarkable how true this is. He even stated that this was His purpose:
quote:
Mark 1:38 “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this purpose I have come forth.”
Luke 24:46 ...it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations...
John 18.37 "For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
This illustrates how central it is that He is the Word, come to re-form the world by the power of the divine truth.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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rewboss
Shipmate
# 566
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by rewboss:
Jesus, the Word, came to preach, not to perform cheap magic tricks.
It is remarkable how true this is. He even stated that this was His purpose:
quote:
Mark 1:38 “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this purpose I have come forth.”
An even clearer passage -- to my mind -- is John's account of the feeding of the 5,000. Right after this event, Jesus tries to slip away, but the crowd catch up with him. He answers them quite harshly: "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill" (Jn 6:26), before hosting a question-and-answer session on the Bread of Life.
Compare that with Matthew and Luke's account of the first temptation: to turn stones into bread. Jesus refuses on the grounds that "man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" (Matth. 4:4).
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The latest from the world of rewboss
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rewboss:
He answers them quite harshly: "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill" (Jn 6:26), before hosting a question-and-answer session on the Bread of Life.
Compare that with Matthew and Luke's account of the first temptation: to turn stones into bread. Jesus refuses on the grounds that "man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" (Matth. 4:4).
Great point. I'm sure that there are many similar examples. They illustrate the fact that He is the Word personified.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
Jesus is the Word of Life and Salvation:
quote:
John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
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Nil, nada, rien
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jinglebellrocker
Shipmate
# 8493
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Posted
Start
(in case anyone was waiting for me to do that)
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For I know that my Redeemer lives,and at the last he will stand upon the earth. - Job 19:25
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jinglebellrocker
Shipmate
# 8493
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Posted
quote:
2He was with God in the beginning.
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For I know that my Redeemer lives,and at the last he will stand upon the earth. - Job 19:25
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
A restatement of verse 1.
Innit ?
_________________________________________
Edited to add:
Stop
noelper as you commented on the verse it is your responsibilty to stop the verses coming and it is also your respnsibility to start the discussion of the next verse when you think this one exhausted. (As Jinglebellrocker did, many thanks JBR).
If we do not accept responsiblity for this then this htread will falter.
If in doubt re-read the OP.
Many thanks,
Pyx_e, Host.
[ 29. May 2006, 09:06: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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Nil, nada, rien
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jinglebellrocker:
quote:
2 He was with God in the beginning.
It does make you wonder what is meant by "with God" as opposed to "was God."
When God said "Let there be light" that voice and that saying was the Word of God. That
Word was "with" Him.
It surprises me, seeing this distinction in Genesis, or as recapitulated elsewhere, that people would see this as two persons. I would think that the more obvious distinction would be something like God's desire to create finding expression through His thought. His thought, or His wisdom, is then what is called the Word.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
The repetition of phrasing suggests that this section of the gospel is poetic. Certainly the first two verses form a chiasmus
code:
[b]John 1:1-2 [/b](ESV)
a. In the beginning was the Word,
b. and the Word was with God,
b'. and the Word was God.
a'. He was in the beginning with God.
[ 29. May 2006, 02:12: Message edited by: Anselm ]
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It does make you wonder what is meant by "with God" as opposed to "was God."
Three persons, one essence. It's a fumbling attempt to explain how Jesus and God can be the same, and yet not the same.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It does make you wonder what is meant by "with God" as opposed to "was God."
Three persons, one essence. It's a fumbling attempt to explain how Jesus and God can be the same, and yet not the same.
Oh, OK.
Since when does a person need a whole new person to speak? I'm thinking that it would make more sense to think that the speech and the origin of the speech are in one person. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
Jesus was part of this grouping, however constituted :-
Genesis 1:26
quote:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness....
In a cyclical (as opposed to linear) view of time predicated in the bible, all the heavenly host seem to be present at the creation.
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Nil, nada, rien
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created...", the word for God is Elohim, which is plural.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Moo and Noelper, it is true that Elohim is plural and that God says "let us." Jews have never thought that these imply a plurality of persons. But why would they be plural?
I just think that it is interesting that the nature of this plurality is apparently the distinction between the God who simply was and the God who spoke. Maybe a third is suggested in the statement "And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1.2).
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
Freddy:
quote:
Jews have never thought that these imply a plurality of persons. But why would they be plural?
This is my own view, but John's gospel opens the way for expansion, if only because of the author's desire to forge the theological link between Old and New Testaments. I am unsure if the process aids my understanding of the Godhead, however. God as the Alpha and Omega I can deal with; God as the Son and the Holy Spirit becomes problematic.
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Nil, nada, rien
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by noelper:
God as the Alpha and Omega I can deal with; God as the Son and the Holy Spirit becomes problematic.
So true! I easily relate to the idea that God is the beginning and the end, and all things in between. But I also struggle with the tri-personal imagery.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
Start
(Having confessed my confusion about this gospel.... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
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Nil, nada, rien
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
quote:
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
This verse assures me that Love empowers the universe.
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Edited to add :
Stop
noelepr the thread is again yours to move to the next verse. If you commnet on the verse you stop the movement to the next one and you have to then post it when this verse is fully discussed.
Pyx_e Host.
[ 29. May 2006, 18:42: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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Nil, nada, rien
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I also love the fact that the speaking of the Word gives form to the universe. All things are formed by the Word of God.
So just as the Word formed everything in the beginning, so Jesus re-forms it at His coming.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Since when does a person need a whole new person to speak?
I don't think Jesus and the Father are two different persons out of necessity; they are two different persons because they are. This verse is trying to explain that.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Since when does a person need a whole new person to speak?
I don't think Jesus and the Father are two different persons out of necessity; they are two different persons because they are. This verse is trying to explain that.
I see. So God does not have to be a Trinity in order to function. He just happens to be a Trinity.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
God isn't subject to any necessity. Don't Swedenborgians believe that too?
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
God isn't subject to any necessity. Don't Swedenborgians believe that too?
No. He is bound by His own laws, which follow from His essence, which is love and wisdom. Not that this has anything to do with the Trinity.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You were the one trying to make God "need" to be a Trinity, not I.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
You were the one trying to make God "need" to be a Trinity, not I.
Oh. Sorry, Alexis. I wasn't meaning that. I was just asking idle speculative questions about the need for a Trinity. I wondered if it was tied to function somehow.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't think the Trinity has ever been argued for by "need" -- it's considered (by those who believe it) the best way of tying together all the scriptural passages about the father and the son and the spirit.
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noelper
Shipmate
# 9961
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Posted
The Jesus of the NT clearly depicts aspects of God, which are barely discernible in the OT. Specifically, the roles of Father and Comforter - as compared with that of Warrior and generally Scary Person. That the Unity/Trinity dichotomy became a source of conflict between religious denominations, reflects how little has been the understanding reached by gospel adherents. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
In any case, this verse describes the Word in terms of something that it, or He, does:
quote:
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Or rather, God does it through the Word.
It makes me think of substance and form. God is the substance, and He creates by form. Yet the two are inseparable, one being impossible without the other.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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