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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Flags and national anthems
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, that's about right. Time well saved.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
In which case, replace prayers for the queen and royal family (who have no power) with those for parliament.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Actually, what I usually do with the 45 seconds saved ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) is to pray extempore for those who will be coming into church that day, for worship or other pastoral reasons, and for our neighbouring parishes, before saying the Prayer for the Clergy and People. Given that we use Matins primarily as a 'staff' preparation for the Eucharist, that seems appropriate. Queen and Government etc. are usually prayed for during the Eucharist as well, of course.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.
The trouble is, the British people wouldn't agree about what the replacement should be.
You want us to forget the anachronism of the monarchy; others would want the monarch to be given at least a passing mention.
Some would prefer to remove all religious references, but others would struggle against that.
Occasionally, someone proposes that 'Jerusalem' become our national anthem, but I don't think that's quite right either. No monarchy, but the religious references are problematic. Also, it references a city that's nowhere near England!
Maybe we could get around the problem by creating a specifically English anthem. There could be a competition to come up with suitable song.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
In which case, replace prayers for the queen and royal family (who have no power) with those for parliament.
The 1959/1962 Canadian BCP also asks that the GG and Lt Governors get endued with wisdom along with the legislators. The Book of Alternative Services gives no set prayers for the offices or the Eucharist, just a rubrical instruction to pray for the Queen and all in authority; occasional prayers for HM, authorities, and elections are on pp. 677ff for the curious. More attention gets paid to acknowledging the sometimes ceded sometimes unceded land upon which we stand.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Except our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.
In its defence, it's really a prayer set to music. Like God save the Emperor, which has much better music of course
I like the second verse, with confounding politics and especially frustrating knavish tricks. And how much the language has changed since it was written.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I'd like to nominate Love Minus Zero/No Limit by Bob Dylan as the Planetary Anthem.
My reasons include:
1. It was written by a winner of the Nobel Prize;
2. It has no overt political or religious meaning;
3. Its about how you look at the person you love when you love them in the best way you can;
4. It is one of my favorite songs;
5. It's guaranteed to annoy Putin and Trump.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Except for the name of the country I've always felt America the Beautiful was a good and pretty generic anthem for use in any country that has water boundaries and mountains.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Both great suggestions. I shall refrain from being silly for the moment in the hope that more good ones are proffered. Rest assured I am absolutely gagging to post something from This is Jinsy.
I wonder if changing "America" to "The Planet Earth" would make it universal?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re "God Save The Queen":
![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Here's a parody I learned as a kid. There's a UK listing for it, but this is the closest to what I learned:
quote:
"God Save the King" (Experience Project).
King George, he had a date,
He stayed out very late,
He was the king.
Queen Mary paced the floor,
King George came home at four,
She met him at the door,
God save the King!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
[ 05. October 2017, 07:50: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
According to one of my favourite Big Finish Doctor Who audio adventures, the planet Earth already has an anthem. It’s “I Will Survive”.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.
It's a very moving tune, isn't it? As are most Welsh songs, ISTM. I like the male voice choirs.
But I don't think singing about a shared culture would work in England, where there's so much diversity of culture. Singing about ancient warriors in the homeland of the British empire would be a problem.
References to natural beauty are inoffensive, though, and the English could also get mileage out of singing about poets, musicians, scientists, inventors, etc.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.
It's a very moving tune, isn't it? As are most Welsh songs, ISTM. I like the male voice choirs.
But I don't think singing about a shared culture would work in England, where there's so much diversity of culture. Singing about ancient warriors in the homeland of the British empire would be a problem.
References to natural beauty are inoffensive, though, and the English could also get mileage out of singing about poets, musicians, scientists, inventors, etc.
Ageing 2000AD readers may remember the Ghoyogian national anthem from DR and Quinch: "Ghoyogi, my Ghoyogi, home of the brave and free. Where greenish grey festoons of slime are hung from every tree."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Though, seriously (no, not really) England could do worse than adopt the last lines of Gong's Flying Teapot
quote:
Originally written by a stoned hippy
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea...
High in the sky, what do you see?
Come down to Earth, a cup of tea
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?
Sounds like just about all national anthems then.
Why have a national anthem at all? Their main use is sporting events, and in my view the only appropriate way to begin one is with a whistle, except cricket, which should be begun with a polite round of applause.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
I used to hear a Canadian version of TLIYL, as a kid in the 1970s. The country was said to span `...from the Arctic Circle, to the Great Lake waters`. (Sorry, can`t get the quotation marks to work on this computer.)
Maybe we sang it in school, I`m not sure.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Svitlana ...
So Blake's Jerusalem references a city that is nowhere near England ...
Blimey, I thought Jamat was the literalist on these boards ...
You have heard of metaphor, I presume?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
Back in the late 1960s the Young Liberals published a songbook including a 'Britishised' version of "This Land is Your Land; I regret I didn't keep my copy. Has anyone out there got those words???
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Svitlana ...
So Blake's Jerusalem references a city that is nowhere near England ...
Blimey, I thought Jamat was the literalist on these boards ...
You have heard of metaphor, I presume?
The question is whether it's an appropriate metaphor for our nation as it is at present. I'm not sure it is. Maybe we need to re-invent the idea of the mythical utopian city for a different age.
But if you're also saying that English towns and cities lack poetic elegance then I suppose I'd have to agree. Who wants to sing about Huddersfield, Leicester or Plymouth, for example? Perhaps the folk who live there, but I wouldn't even be sure of that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
Back in the late 1960s the Young Liberals published a songbook including a 'Britishised' version of "This Land is Your Land; I regret I didn't keep my copy. Has anyone out there got those words???
When I was about 10 (in the early sixties) our Headmaster wrote a New Zealand version.
"This land is my land, this land is your land,
From Cape Maria, to Stewart Island,
In kauri forests and Cook Strait waters.
This land was made for you and me." - LG Anderson.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
May the gloss in Ross be a good gloss...
Paint commercial
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
"This land is my land, this land is your land,
From Cape Maria, to Stewart Island,
In kauri forests and Cook Strait waters.
This land was made for you and me." - LG Anderson.
Huia [/QB]
Sometime either near of before Greenbelt (a churchy festival that takes place on one of the estates of the D o Queensbury, D o Beccleuch (pronounced Ber-clue) and E o Dalkeith) I did try mapping it across
From john of groats to the isles of scilly
This land .. to you and me.
I saw a sign that said owned by Beccleuch
... other side ... land belongs to me and you
[of course in Britain that's not true]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
Yes. Our prayer here in US since January: "oh, my God! Oh my GOD, OH MY GOD!" Desperation does wonders for ones prayer life
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
He's a tool and sock puppet of Voldemort, so what do you expect.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Insult to Lord Voldemort! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Is Outrage!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
His master's voice. What a good doggie!
[ 08. October 2017, 21:15: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Jay-Emm
The Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Queensbury is a suburb of London) are the same person. The Earl of Dalkeith is the courtesy title for the eldest son of the dukedom.
Just sayin'
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
It was totally a stunt.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
(Queensbury is a suburb of London)
I don't think it's that Queensbury - I think the name was invented by a developer in the 30s who took the name from adjacent Kingsbury.
There is a "proper" Queensberry near Bradford in Yorkshire - I wonder if it's that one?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jay-Emm
The Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Queensbury is a suburb of London) are the same person. The Earl of Dalkeith is the courtesy title for the eldest son of the dukedom.
Just sayin'
I knew they were the same. Didn't realise the Dalkeith title wasn't.
(Wiki seemed to suggest Queensbury is Scottish maybe?, I'd assumed it was the London one-esp with the half the British museum area being Montegue House. It also mentioned the courtesy title, but I'd only looked it up to change the spelling and didn't really absorb it)
Anyhow on topic. I think the aristocracy get some of the odd treatment that the flag and anthem gets in America.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
My recollection is that this Dalkeith is just a bit south from Edinburgh.
A very good biography of Hugh Trevor-Roper has o photograph of him sitting on the walls of Drumlanrig between the Duchesses of Buccleugh and Newcastle. He looks to be enjoying himself.
[ 09. October 2017, 08:34: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It was totally a stunt.
So Mike Pence used the national anthem to stage a political protest, and what he was protesting was that you shouldn't use the national anthem to stage political protests.
That's way more "meta" and absurdist than I would have thought Pence capable of!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It was totally a stunt.
So Mike Pence used the national anthem to stage a political protest, and what he was protesting was that you shouldn't use the national anthem to stage political protests.
That's way more "meta" and absurdist than I would have thought Pence capable of!
What it is, is hypocritical. And he is well capable of that.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He's a tool and sock puppet of Voldemort, so what do you expect.
My favorite thing I ever read about Mike Pence is: "Somewhere in Indiana a Quizno's is missing its assistant manager."
I would happily replace him and his boss with any two Quizno's assistant managers drawn at random from the HR database.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
These protests are nothing new.
The snollygoster-in-chief just needs another distraction from what he's doing and not doing.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
And he's turned "stop killing us" to "disrespecting veterans and the flag."
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
... The snollygoster-in-chief just needs another distraction from what he's doing and not doing.
Is 'snollygoster' your personal neologism or does it have a specific meaning but in a dialect I don't speak? It sounds suitably disparging. I'd like to adopt it for my own use. But is it just a general term of abuse or does it have a specific meaning. I'm a bit hesitant to use it if it's got a meaning that I don't know.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Enoch
Try this for size....
I have to admit that our friends across the pond are a very expressive people...... ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .....you can insult people without actually swearing!
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Piglet introduced the word "snollygoster" on the Interesting Words thread in Heaven.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
That's a really useful word. We've a lot of them here too. Mr De Pf****l J*****n for one.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Amazing what you learn here isn't it?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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