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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dealing with bigots
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aliehs
Shipmate
# 18878
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Posted
I am somewhat perplexed by some reactions I have read in a nonrelated group, by bigoted remarks from those who are fundamental Christians, condemning not just the sin as well but also the sinner. The situation strikes me as contrary to the spirit of tolerance and forgiveness. It is akin to "shunning".
How should I deal with these people? I do not wish to condemn them, as that would be doing what they do. I have been as rational as possible, pointing out politely that others may have reasons for doing what they are doing, and therefore merit our understanding, rather than censure, but to no avail. Yet I feel I should say something to motivate them to question their self-righteousness. Or does that make me self righteous myself?
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Now I see through a glass darkly. Maybe I should clean my specs.
sld2A
Posts: 160 | From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2017
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I find that the best way to deal with bigots is to get in touch with my own bigotry.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
aliehs--
If they're not willing to consider other perspectives (like yours), is it worth your time?
If your answer is "yes", maybe keep in mind a couple of things.
--People say all kinds of crap on the Internet. Recently, I ran into some pro-Hitler messages on virtual snowflakes on the Snowdays site! It's normally a pretty peaceful place. Occasionally, people post what is likely a stupid prank, or yell at a former significant other. But this is the worst I've seen, in the many years I've used the site.
--Sometimes, people mean what they say online, and sometimes they don't. They're trying to be clever, or forget they're talking to real people, or really do want to cause trouble and hurt.
--Sometimes, the best thing is to politely and respectfully put forth what you have to say, then back off and don't try to convince anyone.
--Does this other group have any guidelines for posting and behavior? Are there moderators of any kind?
Wisdom and good luck to you! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Great advice GK.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thx, simontoad.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Sometimes, the best thing is to politely and respectfully put forth what you have to say, then back off and don't try to convince anyone.
I like that - there is much wisdom in it. You say what you need to say to avoid passively agreeing with the hateful thing but then step away to avoid getting into a row (mainly to preserve your own sanity as you probably won't convince anyway).
In real life (i.e. not on the internet) there's a wider selection of options for dealing with bigotry with everything from the polite redirecting of Aged Relation X who has just said the wrong thing at the Christmas dinner table onto a neutral subject, to slamming the phone down on a racist rant from an acquaintance. (My mother did that one.)
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
aliehs
There is nothing you can ever say in direct contrast to make bigots think. Absolutely nothing. Ever. You can get them to open themselves up by getting them to deconstruct, differentiate their feelings. Tell their story. Ask with open, warm, grateful, empathic interest. It can only go so far of course, such people aren't used to opening up, being vulnerable and will always fall back on slogans. I'd love to try it with a SCIS terrorist. I've done it with a Britain First guy on Facebook. My stepson is a libertarian, holocaust denying, conspiracy theorist, we get on perfectly. Never, ever confront. Never, ever expect change.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The approach I have taken is that I disagree with them, and I find their portrayal of faith as being something I cannot accept or embrace.
I don't have a problem with them holding such views, and can even accept that they might be right - that the Divine being may well be a vindictive, hating God.
If so, I want nothing to do with him. Call me an atheist if you want, but I would rather embrace atheism than this faith. It may not change their minds, but it may give them some idea of how repugnant their faith seems to someone who should be broadly open to it.
Of course, on Twitter, I normally just tell them to fuck themselves. The short form has some advantages.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
One has no rights, no expectation that can be met. I don't see the point of counter-bigotry as in counter-battery fire.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I find that the best way to deal with bigots is to get in touch with my own bigotry.
I'm uncomfortable with this way of putting what I mean, in that it is too ambiguous. What I mean is that I look for where my judgement of their bigotry is in fact a judgement on myself. I remain bigoted in some ways and that is where my reformist attentions should focus.
Of course this is a response that needs reflection time. I'm not at all strategic in my off-the-cuff responses, although I usually write for the undecided reader rather than make an attempt to convert the offender.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Understood simontoad. Nice.
I'm nearly uncomfortably aware that my technique with extremists works fine but is not adaptable to my spiritual family here. Irony begets sarcasm in the half-beat of a heart here, which I'm trying to back-pedal on. You always hurt the ones you love eh?
Went to church for the first time in many weeks today, as circumstances permitted (we put me mother in respite care). It was a struggle (new thread coming up), but I valued it. Guys to hug. Including one I was utterly alienated from 8 years ago. He's a magnificent "All Muslims go to Hell." - verbatim quote in group - bigot. He sought me out. We get on like a house on fire since as we both value the hugs more than the unbridgeable gulf between us. They transcend it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
My view is that the only way to deal with bigots is the same way I am called upon to deal with everything. I accept what is before me and then seek guidance about what to do. Oftentimes, the Serenity prayer comes to me and I remember that the courage to changes the things I can means me. When I change me with presence, acceptance and detachment I believe I am doing everything I can.
Moving from theory to practicality I do not believe you change anyone's mind by lecturing them. A lecture, in my experience, simply puts someone who is running on self centered fear (i.e., bigots) all the more on the defensive and therefore more entrenched in their position.
In the case of the judgmental Christians™, my thought is that they fear God and therefore judge others so they feel less filled with sin by comparison.
They have to find their own way out of that. You can help them find that path by modeling it yourself. Don't judge them or lecture them. Show them how someone who has not fallen into the trap of judgement lives and maybe they will see something in you they like and want.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Remember a bigot is a human and likely to want to have dignity. Trying to force them to change their views is nearly always counterproductive. If instead you invite them into a fresh perspective and allow them to think, then something may come of it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice Jj, but no. T's on the money. The only way they can possibly get a fresh perspective is by analysing the one they have.
[ 31. December 2017, 13:50: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I would simply say that it is for us to look to our own failings, temptations, quirks and foibles, and to prayerfully allow God to help us with ours and them with theirs. None of us is perfect.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
A good way is to politely question their suppositions--not to argue with them, but to get them to look at how hollow their points really are. Get them to question themselves.
Cognitive Dissonance is a bitch.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Worked for me Gramps49!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
aliehs: quote:
bigoted remarks from those who are fundamental Christians
How to you get to classify a remark as bigoted, as opposed to simply strongly stated views? Can you give an example?
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The easy bigotry to discuss is the direct. Like when a joke is told or someone says effing <insert group name>. Harder is when someone says they aren't racist and then says some thing about the group. If you say something you've misinterpreted their truthiness. If you don't you've agreed with them. What to do then?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Say something. You might just get them to revisit their prejudice
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
One way of dealing with high-profile bigots is to expose them with a full-page ad in the Washington Post, which is what has just happened to NZ singer Lorde.
It is to be hoped that she is just ignorant and thoughtless rather than anti-Semitic, but it might make her (and other airheaded entertainers) take the issue more seriously.
The problem is that with anti-Semitism now as prevalent on the left (sympathy for Islamofascism masquerading as "anti-Zionism") as on the right, she will probably be treated as some sort of victim.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Of course she's not anti-Semitic. She just gives a shit about the human rights of Palestinians. Unfortunately some people like to accuse anyone with any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic; accusing them of sympathy with Islamofascism as well is a new low though. You speak of ignorance. I'll show you ignorance - seeing a simplistic situation where the nice kind democratic Israelis are under siege from wicked Palestinians who all hate and want to kill them.
[ 01. January 2018, 08:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I suspect that a very large proportion of bigotry stems from an attempt to overly simplify complex situations. To show horn people into a binary "dark side" and "light side", "us" and "them", "normal, like me" and "different".
So, for example, anyone who looks at the situation in Israel-Palestine and turns it into black and white, one side evil and the other virtuous, is almost certainly going to appear bigoted (and, quite possibly be a bigot). The same applies if you want to use a single blanket term like "anti-semite" to those who support Palestinian rights, who oppose Zionism, and who actually hate Jews. Yes, all of those people can be bigots, but they'll be different types of bigot and we can't simplify our scheme of putting people into boxes by putting them together under a simple label. That just makes us yet another form of bigot.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Binary thinking is the natural outcome of our egos doing the thinking. It carries with it the implicit assumption that we actually understand everything we so classify.
And it certainly seems to make the world simpler.
The world, creation, is not simple. Scientists will be happy to tell us that. People who objectively have a close look at situations like Palestine/Israel will be happy to tell you that.
We believe we know a great deal more than we actually know. It makes a sometimes bewildering world seem safer. And that belief is delusional.
It is only when I understand that I don't know that I can begin to learn.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
One way of dealing with high-profile bigots is to expose them with a full-page ad in the Washington Post, which is what has just happened to NZ singer Lorde.
You'd think IS or even Assad's regime were greater threats to Israel. But no, the rabbi 'exposes' a twenty-old year old woman, and if he mentions IS at all, it is only in the context of his attack upon her.
Nor does he see fit to condemn North Korea.
Please don't take refuge in the defence that IS's crimes need no direct condemnation, or any similar defence, or you might undermine the idea that as long as Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists' it is beyond criticism.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
One way of dealing with high-profile bigots is to expose them with a full-page ad in the Washington Post, which is what has just happened to NZ singer Lorde.
It is to be hoped that she is just ignorant and thoughtless rather than anti-Semitic, but it might make her (and other airheaded entertainers) take the issue more seriously.
The problem is that with anti-Semitism now as prevalent on the left (sympathy for Islamofascism masquerading as "anti-Zionism") as on the right, she will probably be treated as some sort of victim.
Like Jesus you mean?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Binary thinking is the natural outcome of our egos doing the thinking. It carries with it the implicit assumption that we actually understand everything we so classify.
And it certainly seems to make the world simpler.
The world, creation, is not simple. Scientists will be happy to tell us that. People who objectively have a close look at situations like Palestine/Israel will be happy to tell you that.
We believe we know a great deal more than we actually know. It makes a sometimes bewildering world seem safer. And that belief is delusional.
It is only when I understand that I don't know that I can begin to learn.
Well said!
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
One way of dealing with high-profile bigots is to expose them with a full-page ad in the Washington Post, which is what has just happened to NZ singer Lorde.
"Exposed"? What previously unknown facts were presented? The cancellation of her planned concert in Israel was hardly a secret. quote:
It is to be hoped that she is just ignorant and thoughtless rather than anti-Semitic, but it might make her (and other airheaded entertainers) take the issue more seriously.
That touching expression of hope rings a little hollow after you've already called her a bigot. quote:
The problem is that with anti-Semitism now as prevalent on the left (sympathy for Islamofascism masquerading as "anti-Zionism") as on the right, she will probably be treated as some sort of victim.
Yes, yes, we know, any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. Meanwhile, the self-promotion bandwagon trundles on...
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
aliehs: quote:
bigoted remarks from those who are fundamental Christians
How to you get to classify a remark as bigoted, as opposed to simply strongly stated views? Can you give an example?
This is indeed the nub of the problem. The term 'bigot', as I understand it, refers not to the views themselves, but the reluctance of the person holding those views to allow any questioning or revision of their opinions. Otherwise, the term just reverts to a generalized term of abuse for someone who holds unpopular or unfashionable opinions.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Of course she's not anti-Semitic. She just gives a shit about the human rights of Palestinians. Unfortunately some people like to accuse anyone with any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic; accusing them of sympathy with Islamofascism as well is a new low though. You speak of ignorance. I'll show you ignorance - seeing a simplistic situation where the nice kind democratic Israelis are under siege from wicked Palestinians who all hate and want to kill them.
Unfortunately, that's all too near the truth, Karl. Why should the Israelis take a chance with their security, after what happened last century? All those nice kind democratic Germans, Ukrainians, Russians, Lithuanians, etc.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The BDS thing (boycott divest sanction) Lorde bought into is anti-Israel in terms of Palestinian rights as noted but is also anti-Semetic when it holds Israel to a standard other countries are not held to. Which is the basic problem with BDS. BDS also says that Israel has to solve the Palestinian issue on its own which is also anti-Semetic if it is made to be solely responsible to do so.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Of course she's not anti-Semitic. She just gives a shit about the human rights of Palestinians. Unfortunately some people like to accuse anyone with any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic; accusing them of sympathy with Islamofascism as well is a new low though. You speak of ignorance. I'll show you ignorance - seeing a simplistic situation where the nice kind democratic Israelis are under siege from wicked Palestinians who all hate and want to kill them.
Unfortunately, that's all too near the truth, Karl. Why should the Israelis take a chance with their security, after what happened last century? All those nice kind democratic Germans, Ukrainians, Russians, Lithuanians, etc.
Because stealing people's countries, settling them with your own people and then making it difficult for them to get around what you've left them is wrong?
The settlements are the sticking point for me, that and annexing East Jerusalem.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The BDS thing (boycott divest sanction) Lorde bought into is anti-Israel in terms of Palestinian rights as noted but is also anti-Semetic when it holds Israel to a standard other countries are not held to. Which is the basic problem with BDS. BDS also says that Israel has to solve the Palestinian issue on its own which is also anti-Semetic if it is made to be solely responsible to do so.
What other countries?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists'
sliver?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists'
sliver?
Clearly terrorist acts committed by stateless groups are worse than those committed by nation states. Either that or terrorism against people living in a bit of the Middle East aren't as bad as terrorism against people living in Europe or the US.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists'
sliver?
Most verbs in modern English lack a distinct subjunctive form with which one describes a hypothetical situation that is nevertheless the logical end point of a line of argument. (And one that too often has happened in real life.)
That was I would think apparent from the context of the line in my post; you have edited the sentence into a straight assertion in a way that gives the appearance of dishonesty.
[ 01. January 2018, 20:09: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Sometimes, the best thing is to politely and respectfully put forth what you have to say, then back off and don't try to convince anyone.
I like that - there is much wisdom in it. You say what you need to say to avoid passively agreeing with the hateful thing but then step away to avoid getting into a row (mainly to preserve your own sanity as you probably won't convince anyway).
In real life (i.e. not on the internet) there's a wider selection of options for dealing with bigotry with everything from the polite redirecting of Aged Relation X who has just said the wrong thing at the Christmas dinner table onto a neutral subject, to slamming the phone down on a racist rant from an acquaintance. (My mother did that one.)
This is my preferred policy: say my piece calmly and then be quiet. The person I am speaking to will often believe that having the last word (after my comment) means they've "won". I don't really care.
GK: quote:
--People say all kinds of crap on the Internet. Recently, I ran into some pro-Hitler messages on virtual snowflakes on the Snowdays site! It's normally a pretty peaceful place. Occasionally, people post what is likely a stupid prank, or yell at a former significant other. But this is the worst I've seen, in the many years I've used the site.
Wish I'd seen that flake. I would have tacked on the reply: "Melt, little flake, melt!" ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
What a pity this thread descended into discussion about Israel. I find the discussion about responding to prejudice useful and worthwhile. Surely Lorde and Israel can be discussed elsewhere.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
It seems to me that we label people as bigots because they have different views from our own. We are just as much bigots for labelling these people. What a boring world if we all thought alike.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I think that's a good point. We need to be careful about the words we throw around. And what our beliefs are in different areas.
There are real bigots out there. To me, calling them that won't make a damned bit of difference, except for you and your cohort to feel smug and superior. And calling everyone we think is a bigot, a bigot, lessens the word and makes it become meaningless. But a new one will arise to take its place.
My strategy is, as has been said above, to say my piece and let it lie. I've read studies that presenting people with facts makes them believe the misperceptions all the more [!], so unless someone is truly trying to decide an issue, I suspect time and effort is wasted.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Please don't take refuge in the defence that IS's crimes need no direct condemnation, or any similar defence, or you might undermine the idea that as long as Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists' it is beyond criticism.
Okay, here is your quote in full if it makes you happy, but it is still bullshit.
To sneeringly dismiss the civilized, liberal democratic nation of Israel as "a sliver of high ground" above its corrupt, dictatorial, theocratic, justiceless, censoring, misogynistic, (genuinely) homophobic, genocidal, anti-Semitic enemies in the region, is obscene.
You can stick your smartarse inverted commas around Islamofascism, because that is precisely what it is.
No, Israel is not "beyond criticism", and has been guilty of unwise and sometimes downright wicked acts (eg Deir Yassin).
But for pompous, moralistic, safe and secure Western armchair critics to pontificate about the less than perfect behaviour of a tiny, beleagured country with a more than 3,000 year old claim to its homeland, whose enemies deny even its right to exist, and whose people within living memory underwent a serious attempt to annihilate them, is nauseating bigotry.
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
I believe in Israel's right to exist. I applaud the country's democratic ideals. And I don't usually speak out on this subject.
But since you bring it up, the fact is that if Germany or Russia were treating Jews the way that Israel treats Palestinians, the world would - correctly - be up in arms. Such behavior as stealing their property for illegal settlements, making it all but impossible for them to travel around their own country, keeping women in labor at checkpoints instead of allowing them to get to hospitals, building bridges between buildings in Hebron from which to fling garbage and turds on the Palestinian population - to name just a few offenses - is unspeakable and hardly civilized.
I think this deserves its own topic.
[ 02. January 2018, 02:55: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
There's your first problem Kaplan. No-one has a claim to someone else's land because their ancestors came from there two thousand years ago. Israel should not IMV have been created; it's a reality now and the Israelis today have as much right to exist in the land of their birth as anyone else, which means it is best it now continue to exist, but the fact that someone from New York has the right to settle there by dint of their ethnicity when someone born there in 1940 might not on account of theirs is frankly racism. As for the settlements in occupied territory - that's arrogant racism.
[ 02. January 2018, 07:33: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Please don't take refuge in the defence that IS's crimes need no direct condemnation, or any similar defence, or you might undermine the idea that as long as Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists' it is beyond criticism.
Okay, here is your quote in full if it makes you happy, but it is still bullshit.
To sneeringly dismiss the civilized, liberal democratic nation of Israel as "a sliver of high ground" above its corrupt, dictatorial, theocratic, justiceless, censoring, misogynistic, (genuinely) homophobic, genocidal, anti-Semitic enemies in the region, is obscene.
You can stick your smartarse inverted commas around Islamofascism, because that is precisely what it is.
No, Israel is not "beyond criticism", and has been guilty of unwise and sometimes downright wicked acts (eg Deir Yassin).
But for pompous, moralistic, safe and secure Western armchair critics to pontificate about the less than perfect behaviour of a tiny, beleagured country with a more than 3,000 year old claim to its homeland, whose enemies deny even its right to exist, and whose people within living memory underwent a serious attempt to annihilate them, is nauseating bigotry.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
To sneeringly dismiss the civilized, liberal democratic nation of Israel as "a sliver of high ground" above its corrupt, dictatorial, theocratic, justiceless, censoring, misogynistic, (genuinely) homophobic, genocidal, anti-Semitic enemies in the region, is obscene.
A good thing I didn't then isn't it.
quote:
No, Israel is not "beyond criticism", and has been guilty of unwise and sometimes downright wicked acts (eg Deir Yassin).
Either it is beyond criticism by pompous moralistic safe and secure Western critics or it isn't.
If you say pompous moralistic safe and secure Western critics may not pontificate about Israel you cannot make a special exception for yourself to show that you do not consider Israel 'beyond criticism'. That's hypocrisy.
This is a debating board. You don't get to control the discussion by declaring your criticisms acceptable but other people's criticisms nauseating or bigotry, no matter how red or even purple you get in the face.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
To sneeringly dismiss the civilized, liberal democratic nation of Israel as "a sliver of high ground" above its corrupt, dictatorial, theocratic, justiceless, censoring, misogynistic, (genuinely) homophobic, genocidal, anti-Semitic enemies in the region, is obscene.
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
But since you bring it up, the fact is that if Germany or Russia were treating Jews the way that Israel treats Palestinians, the world would - correctly - be up in arms. Such behavior as stealing their property for illegal settlements, making it all but impossible for them to travel around their own country, keeping women in labor at checkpoints instead of allowing them to get to hospitals, building bridges between buildings in Hebron from which to fling garbage and turds on the Palestinian population - to name just a few offenses - is unspeakable and hardly civilized.
Justification of prejudice through superior civilization is fairly common, historically. William F. Buckley applied Kaplan Corday's argument in a different context in his essay Why the South Must Prevail [PDF]:
quote:
The central question that emerges - and it is not a parliamentary question or a question that is answered by merely consulting a catalogue of the rights of American citizens, born Equal - is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not prevail numerically? The sobering answer is Yes - the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race. It is not easy, and it is unpleasant, to adduce statistics evidencing the cultural superiority of White over Negro: but it is a fact that obtrudes, one that cannot be hidden by ever-so-busy egalitarians and anthropologists.
<snip>
National Review believes that the South's premises are correct. If the majority wills what is socially atavisitic, then to thwart the majority may be, though undemocratic, enlightened. It is more important for the community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority.
Given how often this kind of justification comes up, it would seem to be a fairly relevant aspect of the question being discussed. If the specific example of Israel is too hot, the same general argument from civilization/cultural superiority could be just as easily applied to the segregation-era American South.
[ 02. January 2018, 14:59: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You can stick your smartarse inverted commas around Islamofascism, because that is precisely what it is.
No it isn't. The word 'islamofascist' as far as I can tell means 'I hate Western liberals'. It's a conservative/alt-right version of a virtue signal. I've never seen anyone use it in the course of a sober discussion of how to deal with the group's involved. It's only ever used when the writer wants a stick to beat Western liberals with.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Croesos--
Not one of Buckley's better moments.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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