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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dealing with bigots
aliehs
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Who'd have thought that my little query would have generated so many responses: for which thank you, even if I don't agree with you necessarily.

I feel as a newbie as if I have unwittingly created a monster. It has transformed from a request for "Do I say something, or not, knowing that I have Buckley's of changing the views expressed, even though I find them repugnant, and contrary to my understanding of Christianity?" to world politics and the rights of Palestinians/versus Israelis.
I think that this is wonderful forum for the expression of views, and hope to learn from all of you even if it is to keep my mouth shut. P.S.: Where and How do you get the quotes to sign off with? Told you I was new...

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Now I see through a glass darkly. Maybe I should clean my specs.
sld2A

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: No-one has a claim to someone else's land because their ancestors came from there two thousand years ago.
It's not "someone else's" land.

There have been Jews living there for three thousand years.

If it were anyone else there would be no argument about their right to it, but when it comes to Jews, the age-old double standard must always be upheld.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The word 'islamofascist' as far as I can tell means 'I hate Western liberals'.

You mean "as far as I can dodge the issue".

It means the list of tyrannical and bigoted characteristics which I provided.

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Justification of prejudice through superior civilization is fairly common

OK, so it is "prejudiced" to regard the values of Islamofascism as less civilized than their alternatives.

Fascinating use of the word "prejudiced".

Oh, and since you have brought up the legacy of slavery, it is worth noting that the great majority of the world's worst offenders when it comes to contemporary slavery are Muslim-majority countries.

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Either it is beyond criticism by pompous moralistic safe and secure Western critics or it isn't.

False dichotomy.

The contrast is between those on the one hand who recognise that Israel is not above criticism, but are aware of its historical and contemporary circumstances and its cultural and political preferability to its enemies, and those on the other who either sophistically assert moral equivalence with its would-be destroyers, or relentlessly condemn it while blithely and blindly ignoring the faults of those haters.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: No-one has a claim to someone else's land because their ancestors came from there two thousand years ago.
It's not "someone else's" land.

There have been Jews living there for three thousand years.

If it were anyone else there would be no argument about their right to it, but when it comes to Jews, the age-old double standard must always be upheld.

Bullshit. I can think of no other situation where the presence of people of a particular ethnicity in a place gives other people sharing that ethnicity from the other side of the world the right to push out other people who are already there. It's so unusual I can think of no parallels.

And the "occupied territories" most certainly are someone else's land. Jordan's, in the case of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

[ 03. January 2018, 06:39: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Either it is beyond criticism by pompous moralistic safe and secure Western critics or it isn't.

False dichotomy.

The contrast is between those on the one hand who recognise that Israel is not above criticism, but are aware of its historical and contemporary circumstances and its cultural and political preferability to its enemies, and those on the other who either sophistically assert moral equivalence with its would-be destroyers, or relentlessly condemn it while blithely and blindly ignoring the faults of those haters.

No-one is doing that on this thread. Not one person. But it suits you to make this sort of false accusation, doesn't it. Don't worry; we're used to this. You say Israel isn't above criticism, but the moment someone does it they want to bring back the gas chambers. Get this simple fact into your head - Palestinians matter as much as Jews. No more, no less. They have just as much right to go about their business without being constantly harassed by soldiers defending illegal settlements of a foreign power as you do, were you subject to such an injustice.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

And the "occupied territories" most certainly are someone else's land. Jordan's, in the case of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

I don't think this is really correct. Jordan is a manufactured state - not unlike Israel in that sense - created from the wreckage of Empire and the various historical emirates and kingdoms which existed over the centuries.

The "occupied territories" are occupied Palestinian land not Jordanian. Almost everyone acknowledges the Palestinians as a distinct nation from Jordan. In this case the land is occupied and the people who own it are stateless - hence the negotiations for a settlement are between the Palestinian Authority and/or the PLO and Israel (and not Jordan).

I'm also pretty sure that Jordan relinquished a claim over the West Bank (although they still retain a role in the guardianship of the holy sites in Jerusalem) when they signed a peace agreement with Israel.

On the general point, I'd say that there are various complications with Israel/Palestine which are basically unique in the world. There are various historical claims to the land. There are direct generational links to the land over the last few hundred years or more - in the case of many Palestinians and some Jews. There are "facts on the ground" which have developed over the time that Israel has been functioning as a modern Western state.

Disentangling this is not easy, particularly when there is no particular reason for one side to compromise and many reasons for them to dig their heels in and refuse to compromise.

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arse

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Furry nuff; I do not claim to be an expert. The issue has always been for me the settlements and imposition of occupation outside Israel.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
One way of dealing with high-profile bigots is to expose them with a full-page ad in the Washington Post, which is what has just happened to NZ singer Lorde.

It is to be hoped that she is just ignorant and thoughtless rather than anti-Semitic, but it might make her (and other airheaded entertainers) take the issue more seriously.

The problem is that with anti-Semitism now as prevalent on the left (sympathy for Islamofascism masquerading as "anti-Zionism") as on the right, she will probably be treated as some sort of victim.

I do sometimes wonder whether you actually pay any attention to what is happening in the world or just are waiting for something to happen in Israel in order to blow a gasket.

Plenty of people ask singers to boycott countries for various reasons all the time. Don't go to China because of the way they're treating Tibetans. Don't go to Spain because of the way they throw animals from tall towers.

There may even be campaigns to boycott Jersey for the (alleged) tax avoidance that goes on there. I haven't looked, but maybe there are people who want to boycott Wales for some reason.

There are many ways to respond to a boycott, but the instant response that it must be because of religion is an attempt to downplay the issues.

If you don't like it, ignore it. Get other singers who will come to your country - there must be many of them.

But for goodness sake stop making out that you're being badly treated because other people have been able to persuade a singer not to visit. It's not a good look.

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arse

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Martin60
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I want to say that your sig is perfect in SO many ways mr c...

And K:LB, not directed at you, but with you, also no-one is saying here that Israel has to go it alone in fixing a problem the UN created but cannot un-create.

And KC. It doesn't matter how anti-Enlightenment (allergic to Western hegemony) Muslim majority states are. How does that justify treating them as savages a la Ayn Rand, Generals Custer, Dyer etc? In their own back yards? Starting with colonizing then invading and conquering their land? How Enlightened is that?

How Christian?

Counter-bigotry is like counter-battery fire. You can't tell the difference in no-man's-land.

[ 03. January 2018, 11:01: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No-one is doing that on this thread. Not one person. But it suits you to make this sort of false accusation, doesn't it. Don't worry; we're used to this. You say Israel isn't above criticism, but the moment someone does it they want to bring back the gas chambers.

Those are the rules, apparently. You're not allowed to criticize Israel without also spending time criticizing "Islamofascism", which seems to include all "enemies" of Israel as well as all Muslim-majority countries and their inhabitants. You also apparently can't criticize American segregation without also criticizing this rather broad definition of "Islamofascism".

It's hard to follow these rules. For example, Letter From Birmingham Jail contains many criticisms of Eugene "Bull" Connor, but for some reason Dr. King doesn't spend any time condemning President Nasser. Which I guess just goes to show Dr. King was an apologist for tyranny.

In conclusion, and in accordance with the rules, although Kaplan Corday is trying to shut down any criticism of Israel other than his own, he's not as censorious as the Saudi Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Apparently the thing to do with bigots is to elect them. Recalling comments about rapist Mexicans, twitter support of a UK fascist, anti-Muslim etc. These attitudes are not confrontable when the bigot denies his bigotry.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Don't go to China because of the way they're treating Tibetans. Don't go to Spain because of the way they throw animals from tall towers.

Okay, we've had China, Spain and North Korea cited, but not (so far) Burma/Myanmar, Turkmenistan or Central African Republic.

All have questionable features, but none has much to do directly with Israel.

Reference to the Islamofascist features of Israel's regional enemies, however, is not "whataboutery", but a realistic recognition of what Israel is actually up against.

It is called relevance - look it up.

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can think of no other situation where the presence of people of a particular ethnicity in a place gives other people sharing that ethnicity from the other side of the world the right to push out other people who are already there. It's so unusual I can think of no parallels.

Those who are "already there" are the Jews, who have been there for millennia.

And what's "unusual" is what drove them to create a haven in their homeland after WWII.

Genocide is not "unusual", but the Shoah was "unusual" in being probably history's most thorough attempt at it, and Israel is still confronted by elements who would like to see it re-attempted.

It would be nice to think that they and Gentiles could peacefully co-exist there, there are no doubt many well-meaning members of both communities prepared to make it work, and as an outsider I find it difficult to understand some Israeli policies (seemingly unwise, to say the least) which appear to militate against that.

But I don't live there, and I am not threatened by surrounding lunatics who hate not only Israel but Jews themselves.

So I am sure as hell not going to join in the sanctimonious chorus of those ordering Israel to commit what, to them on the spot, is obvious national suicide.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
So I am sure as hell not going to join in the sanctimonious chorus of those ordering Israel to commit what, to them on the spot, is obvious national suicide.

Well, not that sanctimonious chorus, anyway!
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Bullshit. I can think of no other situation where the presence of people of a particular ethnicity in a place gives other people sharing that ethnicity from the other side of the world the right to push out other people who are already there. It's so unusual I can think of no parallels.

Not sure what the point is with that. There's not been another Hawaii either, nor the Russian created Holodomir (holocaust) of the ethinic Ukrainians in the 1930s nor the deportartion of Tartars.

Re Israel specifically. It requires or support as a nation because it was created by the UN and is a member of the community of nations. Jordan is basically defacto the Palestinian state. It would certainly help if all of the other states 8n the mid-east recognized Israel aide from Egypt and Jordan. A threatened nation isn't likely to agree to things when basic states of war exist with extinction of it as policy and ideals.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I can think of no other situation where the presence of people of a particular ethnicity in a place gives other people sharing that ethnicity from the other side of the world the right to push out other people who are already there. It's so unusual I can think of no parallels.

Those who are "already there" are the Jews, who have been there for millennia.

And what's "unusual" is what drove them to create a haven in their homeland after WWII.

Genocide is not "unusual", but the Shoah was "unusual" in being probably history's most thorough attempt at it, and Israel is still confronted by elements who would like to see it re-attempted.

It would be nice to think that they and Gentiles could peacefully co-exist there, there are no doubt many well-meaning members of both communities prepared to make it work, and as an outsider I find it difficult to understand some Israeli policies (seemingly unwise, to say the least) which appear to militate against that.

But I don't live there, and I am not threatened by surrounding lunatics who hate not only Israel but Jews themselves.

So I am sure as hell not going to join in the sanctimonious chorus of those ordering Israel to commit what, to them on the spot, is obvious national suicide.

The "people already there" include the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Do you think it acceptable to displace them by planting settlements there? Why? Why does your "already there" not apply if you're Palestinian? And do you really believe that all Palestinians are anti-Semitic lunatics?

[ 04. January 2018, 06:59: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Okay, we've had China, Spain and North Korea cited, but not (so far) Burma/Myanmar, Turkmenistan or Central African Republic.

All have questionable features, but none has much to do directly with Israel.

Reference to the Islamofascist features of Israel's regional enemies, however, is not "whataboutery", but a realistic recognition of what Israel is actually up against.

It is called relevance - look it up.

No, it is reading for comprehension. I was talking about an over-reaction against people calling for a boycott.

As it happens, the nearest countries largely don't give a shit about boyoctting Israel. There is regular trade between Israel and Jordan and fairly good neighbourly relations between Egypt and Israel - both of which have peace agreements with Israel.

Syria hasn't had good relations with Israel for a long time, although the trading links have always been open.

Lebanon has an uneasy relationship, but that's in large part because Israel got rather involved in their civil war.

I don't think the boycott calls are coming from any of these governments (and it would be rather ridiculous if it was given the ongoing relationships that most of these have with Israel).

The Saudis are arses and can truly be described as islamofascists. But I'm fairly sure they sell quite a lot of stuff to Israel.

Iran (which isn't Arab, just in case we're forgetting) certainly is in a regional power struggle with Israel and may indeed be encouraging the boycott in the West.

So no. This is a civil boycott with basically no serious support from any nation, and very little support or interest in the region. It is nothing like the Cuba boycott or the South African boycott.

And, to underline the point once again, some of the loudest voices talking about boycotting Israel are Jewish. So the idea that the very concept is anti-Semitic and an outpouring of Islamofascism is quite bogus.

It arguably suits the narrative of some Islamofascists, but the organisation is overwhelmingly not coming from Arab Muslims.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Those who are "already there" are the Jews, who have been there for millennia.


Some Jews have been there for millennia. There are Palestinian families who can trace their lineage for at least a thousand years in the land.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews have not been there that long.

Of course the Holocaust has had huge ramifications, and it is even understandable why the early Zionists wanted to return to Jerusalem and why the world powers let them, particularly after the disaster of the European genocide.

But this isn't a rational argument to use to displace other people who were in no sense responsible and who are only living in the land because of an accident of birth.

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arse

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Kwesi
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# 10274

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quote:
mr cheesy: Israel has been functioning as a modern Western state.

Now there's a statement that needs unpacking!
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Now there's a statement that needs unpacking!

Does it? What do you mean?

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arse

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was talking about an over-reaction against people calling for a boycott.

And I'm explaining why it is not "whataboutery" to bring up Israel's haters when it is vilified.

And they don't include only countries, but organisations such as PLO, Fatah, Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad - even more distant terrorist groups such as Boko Haram and Al Shabab which would take any opportunity that offered to lash out at Israeli interests and citizens.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
And I'm explaining why it is not "whataboutery" to bring up Israel's haters when it is vilified.

I see. So by that reasoning, nobody should have said anything about racist South Africa - because worse regimes existed at the time elsewhere.

quote:
And they don't include only countries, but organisations such as PLO, Fatah, Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad - even more distant terrorist groups such as Boko Haram and Al Shabab which would take any opportunity that offered to lash out at Israeli interests and citizens.
I'd be very surprised if you could show any Israeli citizen who has been affected directly by Boko Haram and Al Shabab. Those organisations are equal opportunity haters, they hate Israel along with a long list of others - including the "wrong" kind of Muslim. ISIS is closer, although I don't think they've had a lot of direct interaction with Israel either. Not sure about Al Qaeda, but I don't think that they're much involved either.

The PLO has shown that it is prepared to negotiate with Israel on a settlement based on the 1967 borders, as has Fatah and Hamas. They're enemies for sure of Israel, but they say that they're prepared to compromise from their core position. But Israel isn't actually prepared to call their bluff.

I don't know about Islamic Jihad, but it does seem that they're more inclined to be Israel haters and are not prepared to compromise at all.

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arse

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Kwesi
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# 10274

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quote:
mr cheesy: Israel has been functioning as a modern Western state.

Kwesi: Now there's a statement that needs unpacking!

mr cheesy: Does it? What do you mean?

Well, it all depends on what you understand are the characteristics of a 'modern Western state.'
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Of course the Holocaust has had huge ramifications, and it is even understandable why the early Zionists wanted to return to Jerusalem and why the world powers let them, particularly after the disaster of the European genocide.

The "early Zionists" were in the late 1800s. Post-WW2 Zionists were fourth or fifth wave.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Please don't take refuge in the defence that IS's crimes need no direct condemnation, or any similar defence, or you might undermine the idea that as long as Israel maintains a sliver of moral high ground above 'Islamofascists' it is beyond criticism.

Okay, here is your quote in full if it makes you happy, but it is still bullshit.

To sneeringly dismiss the civilized, liberal democratic nation of Israel as "a sliver of high ground" above its corrupt, dictatorial, theocratic, justiceless, censoring, misogynistic, (genuinely) homophobic, genocidal, anti-Semitic enemies in the region, is obscene.

No, Israel is not "beyond criticism", and has been guilty of unwise and sometimes downright wicked acts (eg Deir Yassin).

...to pontificate about the less than perfect behaviour of a tiny, beleagured country with a more than 3,000 year old claim to its homeland, whose enemies deny even its right to exist, and whose people within living memory underwent a serious attempt to annihilate them, is nauseating bigotry.

Indeed! Well pointed out Kaplan Corday.
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mousethief

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So, in short, as long as I can find some country or countries that are worse, then Israel's atrocities are merely "imperfections." Got it.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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Oh, I vehemently disagree with saying Israel has committed only minor infractions.

They have purposely stolen land from a people that have just as deep of a claim to the land as the Hebrews did. Those people claim that they are the rightful heirs to the promise of God from Abraham.

Even history says they co-existed with the Israelites when he the people who passed through (the meaning of the word "Hebrew") started to settle in the land)

They have uprooted ancient olive trees rightfully owned by the Palestinians. They have stolen water that should have been used to water Palestinian farms. They have destroyed Palestinian homes without due process of law. They forbid Palestinians to access fishing grounds in the Mediterranean. They ignore UN resolutions demanding a return of all Palestinian property, and they have actively sabotaged any attempts to develop a two-state solution. They seek to keep the Palestinians subservient in their own land.

[ 06. January 2018, 05:05: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So by that reasoning, nobody should have said anything about racist South Africa - because worse regimes existed at the time elsewhere.

"At the time" racist South Africa deserved all the criticism it got, but so a fortiori did regimes like China's.

Instead, there were passionate, fashionable, persistent and well-organised protests against sporting competition with South Africa, but practically bugger-all interest in preventing athletic and sporting contact with repressive dictatorships such as China.

As for your casuistical dismissal of Islamist groups, just stop and try instead to imagine a Jew living under any one of them to capture their essential sickness.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So, in short, as long as I can find some country or countries that are worse, then Israel's atrocities are merely "imperfections." Got it.

What you need to "find" is some sort of sense of proportion.
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Golden Key
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ISTM that everyone should be safe, everywhere, especially in their homes and homelands. Jews, Israeli Jews, non-Jewish Israelis, Palestinians, etc.

I think that the expansion of Israeli Jewish settlements is rather telling about how much peace the Israeli gov't and many citizens want.

I sometimes worry that the Israeli gov't and *some* Israeli Jews are considering The Palestinian Question, and what to do about it.

I know there's provocation on both sides. And AIUI the partitioning after WWII was badly done, over all. It's all a nightmare. But it sometimes seems to me that Israel considers Palestinians to be vermin, to be barely tolerated as long as they're not in the house.

Some will find this flame-worthy: "Never again" is absolutely vital for Jews. But it should apply to everyone else, too. Given all the ways God instructed the Jewish people in the OT to be gracious to outsiders, etc., it might be a wise and miraculous thing for them to be gracious to Palestinians.

Not to mention good public relations. They're missing a grand opportunity to help themselves and earn a more positive reputation in the region.

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Kwesi
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Without entering into the debate, I think in view of some of the posts it needs to be pointed out that Israeli sees itself as a secular state, and that its territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God.
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Golden Key
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AIUI, the Jews in the settlements *do* see the land as given to them by God. I would guess that the strict Orthodox Jews in Israel also think so.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Instead, there were passionate, fashionable, persistent and well-organised protests against sporting competition with South Africa, but practically bugger-all interest in preventing athletic and sporting contact with repressive dictatorships such as China.

Speaking as someone with white South African parents, the obvious difference is that there was a reasonable chance that a boycott of South Africa would succeed.

quote:
As for your casuistical dismissal of Islamist groups, just stop and try instead to imagine a Jew living under any one of them to capture their essential sickness.
I'll note that two of the groups you mentioned are secular rather than Islamist.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Without entering into the debate, I think in view of some of the posts it needs to be pointed out that Israeli sees itself as a secular state, and that its territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God.

Wrong. The Basic Law says it is a Jewish and Democratic state.

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arse

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Kwesi
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quote:
mr cheesy quote:

Originally posted by Kwesi: Without entering into the debate, I think in view of some of the posts it needs to be pointed out that Israeli sees itself as a secular state, and that its territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God.

mr cheesy: Wrong. The Basic Law says it is a Jewish and Democratic state.

mr cheesy, you are confusing ethnicity (in this case ancestral origins) with religion. Zionism is essentially secular in character, and most of the founders of modern Israel were atheists. To repeat, Israel's territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God, but a return to the lands of their ancestors. In the case of Israel "Jewish" in this context is not a reference to religion. Israel is a secular state.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
mr cheesy, you are confusing ethnicity (in this case ancestral origins) with religion. Zionism is essentially secular in character, and most of the founders of modern Israel were atheists. To repeat, Israel's territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God, but a return to the lands of their ancestors. In the case of Israel "Jewish" in this context is not a reference to religion. Israel is a secular state.

Well you can repeat whatever you like.

Netanjahu to the US Senate:

quote:
In Judea and Samaria, the Jewish people are not foreign occupiers. We are not the British in India. We are not the Belgians in the Congo. This is the land of our forefathers, the Land of Israel, to which Abraham brought the idea of one God, where David set out to confront Goliath, and where Isaiah saw a vision of eternal peace... No distortion of history can deny the four thousand year old bond, between the Jewish people and the Jewish land... Peace cannot be imposed. It must be negotiated. But it can only be negotiated with partners committed to peace.
Communications Minister Tzachi Hanegbi in Washington, March 2017:

quote:
Defense is important and security is important, but the most important thing is the moral claim of Israel. We are committed to go forward with living in our ancient land, land that was given us not by Google and Wikipedia, but by the Bible.
The founders explicitly made statements about their claims to the land:

from David Ben-Gurion's letter to General de Gaulle, 1967

quote:
When a British royal commission came to Jerusalem at the end of 1936 to weigh the future of the Mandate, I said to it: “Our Mandate is the Bible.” It was from the Bible that we drew the strength to withstand a hostile world and to perpetuate our faith that we would one day return to our land and that peace would reign in the world.
etc and so on. The idea that the concept of modern Israel is not related to a religious claim to the land - either by the founders of the nation or by contemporary politicians there - is utterly bogus.

[ 06. January 2018, 10:57: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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mr cheesy
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Golda Meir, 1971

quote:
This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.


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arse

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Kwesi
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mr cheesy, I take the political statements you listed with a pinch of salt bearing in mind the audiences to whom they were addressed, i.e. to those who might regard the OT as divinely authoritative in this matter. Zionism and the state of Israel, however, are the product of post-1789 nationalism, nineteenth century romanticism, and the principles of national self-determination popularised by Wilson. I don't know any Israelis who would assert anything other than the secular nature of their state. Your quotation from the basic law only supports your case if "Jewish" is defined as a belief in the God of the Patriarchs. As far as I am aware that is not constitutionally the case. The attraction of the Zionist foundations of Israeli is that it is a secular substitute for the religion most Jews of the Western diaspora have lost.
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mr cheesy
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Ah sorry, I didnt realise this was one of those "I don't believe x to be true, so it isn't - despite all evidence to the contrary, which I will now wave away" situations, K.

As you were then.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by aliehs:
I am somewhat perplexed by some reactions I have read in a nonrelated group, by bigoted remarks from those who are fundamental Christians... Or does that make me self righteous myself?

1) Here we go again - fundamental (sic) Christians are uniquely bigoted, evidently.

2) Yes. In a word.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
quote:
mr cheesy quote:

Originally posted by Kwesi: Without entering into the debate, I think in view of some of the posts it needs to be pointed out that Israeli sees itself as a secular state, and that its territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God.

mr cheesy: Wrong. The Basic Law says it is a Jewish and Democratic state.

mr cheesy, you are confusing ethnicity (in this case ancestral origins) with religion. Zionism is essentially secular in character, and most of the founders of modern Israel were atheists. To repeat, Israel's territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God, but a return to the lands of their ancestors. In the case of Israel "Jewish" in this context is not a reference to religion. Israel is a secular state.
Have you ever sat through a synagogue service?
I have been in (only) two; and I can tell you that in their prayers and readings they go on and on about the land. It's not an ancestral thing, to be Jewish is to be focused on the land of Israel; the whole covenant with God is land-based.
Read the Book of Exodus - in fact throw in Genesis through to Revelation. God's purposes and dealings with the Jews and Israel - which was always a political state not just a religious idea - have always been based on the promise of that land to the Jews, the children of (guess who?) Israel.

You cannot take the land away from Judaism. They have existed in the last 2000 years as a diaspora on the dream of being restored to their God-given land.

To deny that is instrinsically antisemitic - as is the Islamic denial (followed by the craven UN) that Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Israel is about Judaism and land in thd same way that the USA is one nation under God, and Canadians mean it when we sing God keep our land. Bluntly, going into a synagogue will not find you Israel because most Israelis don't go to synagogue. Most singers of Christmas carols aren't church goers either.

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Nicolemr
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There are plenty of American Jews who are less than gung-ho about Israel and it's actions. Not all Jews think the same way, in lock-step, you know.

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Mudfrog
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Just because the non-religious Jews are not interested doesn't take away from the centrality of the land to the faithful and observant Jews.

Ask yourself one question: In the covenants between YHWH and Abraham and YHWH and Moses - those covenants that are basically 'Judaism' - what was the central feature?

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Nicolemr
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Who said I was talking about non-religiously observant people, Mudfrog? You are making unwarranted assumptions.

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Mudfrog
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Sorry, I was replying to No Prophet...

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
quote:
mr cheesy quote:

Originally posted by Kwesi: Without entering into the debate, I think in view of some of the posts it needs to be pointed out that Israeli sees itself as a secular state, and that its territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God.

mr cheesy: Wrong. The Basic Law says it is a Jewish and Democratic state.

mr cheesy, you are confusing ethnicity (in this case ancestral origins) with religion. Zionism is essentially secular in character, and most of the founders of modern Israel were atheists. To repeat, Israel's territorial claims have nothing to do with any donation by God, but a return to the lands of their ancestors. In the case of Israel "Jewish" in this context is not a reference to religion. Israel is a secular state.
Have you ever sat through a synagogue service?
I have been in (only) two; and I can tell you that in their prayers and readings they go on and on about the land. It's not an ancestral thing, to be Jewish is to be focused on the land of Israel; the whole covenant with God is land-based.
Read the Book of Exodus - in fact throw in Genesis through to Revelation. God's purposes and dealings with the Jews and Israel - which was always a political state not just a religious idea - have always been based on the promise of that land to the Jews, the children of (guess who?) Israel.

You cannot take the land away from Judaism. They have existed in the last 2000 years as a diaspora on the dream of being restored to their God-given land.

To deny that is instrinsically antisemitic - as is the Islamic denial (followed by the craven UN) that Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel.

Wanting something doesn't give you the right to take it. Is your message to the Palestinians really "tough shit, they can take your lands and you just have to put up with it because they're Jewish and you're not"?

[ 06. January 2018, 19:59: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Mudfrog
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Sorry Whose lands? [Confused]
Just who are these 'Palestinians' to whom you refer?
A recognised state?
A recognised ethnic group?
A history?

Ate you suggesting - or even strongly implying - that the ground where Israel is now was a state called Palestine that actually was populated and governed by these people you see today and call Palestinians?

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