Thread: Charlottesville Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
I don't know if this belongs in heaven (for prayer) or hell (for cursing) but I'll start here.

A major US city is currently under violent assault by white supremacists. Interfaith clergy are courageously standing ground in opposition-- despite being assaulted with concrete-filled cans, threatened with guns, and now a car deliberately driven into the crowd of counter-protestors.

This is, I fear, the beginning of a coup by Steve Bannon's Amerika.


 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
Well, it's not looking good. But that there are twice as many people on the street protesting against a Nazi parade than there are Nazis in the parade gives me hope.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
BBC News reports that at least one person has been killed.

How long will it be, I wonder, before the 'militia' start opening fire?



IJ
 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
It's been pointed out that if a bunch of black guys had marched down the street in full combat gear and toting AR-15s, they wouldn't have made it a single block.

That the (white) driver of the car is in custody and not the morgue is good, but it's also telling.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
If that was Mr Trump's idea of a presidential response we're fucked. The scripted bit about egregious - clearly not his word - was ordinary, then the sub text about "how great I art" were a fucking obscenity.



[ 12. August 2017, 19:55: Message edited by: Zappa ]
 

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Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
oh dear God... and I don't know if that's a prayer or a curse.
 

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Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
This is another eerie page from the playbook of early Italian fascism. The black shirts take to the streets deliberately to provoke a counter demonstration by the left. The left takes the bait. Violence ensues. The central government tut-tuts a Milquetoast lament about violence on both sides.
 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
The violence has been overwhelmingly from the Right. And, given that these are actual Nazis, I'm much less concerned about confronting them robustly.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
There are not even words in hell for this.

Terrorists on the streets of America killing and injuring other Americans, and the state is doing nothing.

This is Trumps America. A terrorist nation with nuclear weapons.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
What's happening in Charlottesville is staggeringly horrible. What is happening to us?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
No words.

Sadly, no surprise either.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
This feels so overwhelming. But it's also a call to live the Sermon on the Mount.

We have to make sure the antidote to the events at Charlottesville (and all similar events) is out there.

sabibe
 

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
There are times I think we have hope as humans.

And then there are times like this.

I honestly don't care the Nazis were outnumbered. That brings me no hope tbh. The fact they exist, and the fact they can march in the streets with such numbers, says it all. Hate is real and still with us.

Waiting, in trepidation, at copy cat marches...
 

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Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
But isn't this part of the "Great" in " Make America Great Again"? Trump tolerated violence by his supporters during his campaign rallies. He threatens North Korea with fire and fury.

Tangentially, during a call-in show on Public Radio 2 days ago, a caller defended Trump's unprecedented bluster on North Korea. The moderator asked whether he was concerned about the possible impact on millions in So. Korea or Japan. The caller dismissed the question in 2 words: "That's hypothetical." This chilled me. The real life consequences of their words and actions means nothing to these people.
 

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
The jackboots on Slate's Trumpcast's intro have never hit me so hard...I'd always thought they were a bit of overkill. Not anymore, sadly.
 

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Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
The scene of the marchers with those dreadful flags was like a kick in the stomach to me. They hold a strange definition of patriotism.

Seeing the clergy standing in line.some in vestments, all linking arms with the person next to them brought me to tears.
 

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Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
There's a "co-exist" idea suggested by all of this. Which is ridiculous, tragic and infuriating. My grandmother told me that there was no "co-exist" in the Tiergarten in Berlin in 1936. There is never a place for such beasts. There are limits to free speech. There are limits to tolerance, and tolerating the intolerant mustn't be tolerated.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 


Wow. I'd heard headlines about this on the radio, but didn't realize it was on this scale.

When I searched for news, one of the hits was a Nazi site, which declared "Jews Organizing Genocidal Bolshevik Riot at Charlottesville". I didn't go to the site. But the feelings are at that level.


 

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Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
Events like the post-election riots and the crap like this today need to stop. If folks want to walk around spouting their piece, fine, but destroying other people or their stuff is criminal.

I'm curious why the person who drove a car into a crowd is only charged with second degree murder, too. From the video I saw today, it sure looked like the driver meant to do it. I don't get how that would not be considered premeditated. I also don't understand how the driver could argue that death was not the goal. It looks like the driver can get up to 40 years in VA, plus the other charges.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:


Wow. I'd heard headlines about this on the radio, but didn't realize it was on this scale.

When I searched for news, one of the hits was a Nazi site, which declared "Jews Organizing Genocidal Bolshevik Riot at Charlottesville". I didn't go to the site. But the feelings are at that level.

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Because the Hebrew people have such a history of organizing genocidal bozhevik riots.

 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Oh ... right ... of course. I looked at the site. Because Lenin
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

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What post-election riots would those be?

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a "co-exist" idea suggested by all of this. Which is ridiculous, tragic and infuriating. My grandmother told me that there was no "co-exist" in the Tiergarten in Berlin in 1936. There is never a place for such beasts. There are limits to free speech. There are limits to tolerance, and tolerating the intolerant mustn't be tolerated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lothlorien:
Seeing the clergy standing in line.some in vestments, all linking arms with the person next to them brought me to tears.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

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What post-election riots would those be?

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Perhaps he means the rioting on January 20?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'm curious why the person who drove a car into a crowd is only charged with second degree murder, too. From the video I saw today, it sure looked like the driver meant to do it. I don't get how that would not be considered premeditated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are times when extremists like this can be mocked, told to go back home to their moms' basements, merely dismissed. Those are the times when it's just a few silly privileged white boys seeking attention for the imagined slights done to them. And away they go, and they grow up, and are suitably embarrassed by the memory.

There are other times, mercifully rare, when hatred must be crushed, utterly crushed. We are approaching one of those times, if we are not already in it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
If the driver got into his car and sought out demonstrators to run over, that would constitute premeditation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

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quote:

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These are radical white supremacist terrorists and she won't even mention the word, and nor will President Obama. He won't use the term 'radical white supremacist terrorism'. Now, to solve a problem, you have to be able to state what the problem is or at least say the name. She won't say the name and President Obama won't say the name. But the name is there. It's radical white supremacist terror.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee

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He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Events like the post-election riots

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What post-election riots would those be?

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Perhaps he means the rioting on January 20?

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Yes, right after the election, such as in Portland, up to yesterday.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ricardus:
Fortunately Donald Trump has condemned the kind of mealy-mouthed whatabouttery that prevents people from calling terrorism by its name:

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Please don't do stress tests on Poe's law

It's bad enough dealing with the presidency's 'alternative facts', misreporting and barefaced inconsistencies as it is, without having to decipher more tweaked by its opponents, even to drive home a valid point.

(Trump tweets and their parodies definitely prove Poe's Law).

[ 13. August 2017, 14:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems the marchers could have more easily and cheaply just taken up an online collection to buy it if that is really what it was all about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

noted traitor Robert E. Lee. Traitor Lee

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He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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As a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army, the traitor Lee swore an oath to "bear true allegiance to the United States of America" and to "obey the orders of the President of the United States of America, and the orders of the officers appointed over me". To the best of my knowledge he never took a similar oath to the state of Virginia or its governor. Citation?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

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He never swore an oath to uphold the constitution of his state. As an Army Officer, he did swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States of America. He is a traitor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

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No, no it can't.

One side came with Nazi flags and an armed militia. They came with flaming torches.

Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

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Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I won't fault a guy for not willing to lead an army against his own home.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

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Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?

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The article says Nazi things are illegal in Germany. Which is entirely reasonable. There are limits to free speech and must be for benefit of civil society.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:


The Nazis were also shouting "Fuck you, faggots." That's me, in case you need reminding. I, and people like me, are among those they want to destroy. And I'm not going to "ignore the bullies and they'll go away", because they never do. If they come near me and mine, or into my community, I'm going to make them wish they'd never been born.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

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Not really. The states created the federal government, not the other way around. I won't fault a guy for not willing to lead an army against his own home.

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I live in a Federation. I do understand how they get created. But you're talking about a conception where the deal can be undone whenever it suits. And the Civil War was pretty much about establishing that wasn't the case.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Guys, could we stop this? The thread has moved from condemning actual neo-Nazi thugs engaging in actual violence, to mud-slinging which includes veiled suggestions that individuals such as Mere Nick are on their side. I mean, stand back, and take a moment to consider just how ridiculous that is, please. It is plain idiotic, and there is no evidence to support it on this thread.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

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No, no it can't.

One side came with Nazi flags and an armed militia. They came with flaming torches.

Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

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Yes, they are Nazis. The other riots were anarchists. I don't have anything for either.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Guys, could we stop this? The thread has moved from condemning actual neo-Nazi thugs engaging in actual violence, to mud-slinging which includes veiled suggestions that individuals such as Mere Nick are on their side. I mean, stand back, and take a moment to consider just how ridiculous that is, please. It is plain idiotic, and there is no evidence to support it on this thread.

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Mere Nick is doing his very best to inflame and to stir the cauldron of a war that ended 160 years ago. If you want ridiculousness to stop, go to the source.

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quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

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Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.

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Ok, fair enough. I'm kind of trying to avoid being inflammatory, having pleaded against it, but what about this one? 'That noted traitor, Jehu'?
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

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Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

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Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?

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The article says Nazi things are illegal in Germany. Which is entirely reasonable. There are limits to free speech and must be for benefit of civil society.

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If the American government had the power to limit free speech, that power would be exercised by these guys and their fellow travellers. No thank you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Especially if you had a whole city being terrorized by a bunch of adulterers with assault rifles.

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quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
I was already thinking, maybe I should just bow out, because I'm not in the South, I'm not in the North, I'm not even in the US, it's not my cultural history,

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quote:

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I'm not walking in these guys' shoes, and undoubtedly the whole thing is feeling a lot more immediate, more raw, for them, right now, than for me, and why should they not vent?

But yeah, groups of angry, resentful people assembling to march with assault rifles? I don't even have a frame of reference for that...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not really. The states created the federal government, not the other way around.

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quote:

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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quote:

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We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, . . .

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quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Also, I’d like to say that I found Croesos’ original post on this thread to be an absolutely masterful piece of writing (and no, that is not sarcasm, I was genuinely impressed), but I think it’s really unfortunate that s/he chose to incorporate a single inflammatory soundbite in what was otherwise a cogent, coherent summary of the relevant background and facts of the case, by referring to Robert E Lee as a ‘noted traitor’. . . . probably just saying Robert E Lee would have been enough to identify the guy, but there was always also the option of saying ‘Confederate Leader Robert E Lee’.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
CBC The National (national news) this evening had me doing an online search for donald trump's racism. Not hard to find. Identity politics got him votes. Implication is trumpy is at least partly responsible. That the fascists are his people. His base. Does that play?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

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Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

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I don't think "only in America" could you imagine someone with divided loyalties at all.

Imagine a country with two ethic groups - a majority and a minority. You have lots to choose from. Take your pick - it doesn't matter.

Imagine a senior army officer or such from the minority group. Imagine that the majority government institutes harsh constraints on the minority, and sends in the army to enforce them.

Does that minority officer now face a choice between being a traitor to his people or a traitor to his country?

My problem with General Lee isn't that he chose his state over his country - it's that he chose slave-owning over freedom.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

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Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

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Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.

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Actually, a lot of Americans either love or hate JFK, plus the whole "Camelot" golden age mythology, plus unresolved feelings and questions about the assassination, etc., etc. So, unless the readers didn't know about JFK, there'd likely be *some* kind of a reaction.

[ 14. August 2017, 06:28: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Again, I know this is a tangent, but so much this on the issue of tone that facilitates and invites discussion.

[ 14. August 2017, 07:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
That's how Dr. King defeated it wasn't it? And Mohandas K. Ghandi.

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I suspect that neither of those great men really did defeat nazism. I suspect that what they did - and this is a phenomenal achievement in itself - was to make it unfashionable and unsayable among the political and middle classes. They made it so that no respectable person could be a nazi, at least not out loud.

Unfortunately, the world isn't full of "respectable" people, and more to the point we now know that much of "respectability" is a wretched hypocrisy that allows base instincts to grow under the surface. And then there are those who simply don't share those middle-class mores, whose resentment and dislike of the unlike were barely touched by King's and Gandhi's efforts and goodness. Perhaps our middle-class cocoons protected us from their sneers for a few decades, though I've been called a fucking queer and told I should burn by better men - and women - than any of the unevolved vermin who gathered in Charlottesville with their cirtronella torches.

King, Gandhi and their like were builders of civilisation. But the thin veneer we call civilisation has never made nazism go away. It never will
 

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Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :
 
I just want to post my love and support for my American shipmates in the light of this crime and terrorist attack. I pray that somehow, Americans can retreat from political violence as a way of solving their differences.


 

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Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by simontoad:
I just want to post my love and support for my American shipmates in the light of this crime and terrorist attack. I pray that somehow, Americans can retreat from political violence as a way of solving their differences.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
That's how Dr. King defeated it wasn't it? And Mohandas K. Ghandi.

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I suspect that neither of those great men really did defeat nazism. I suspect that what they did - and this is a phenomenal achievement in itself - was to make it unfashionable and unsayable among the political and middle classes. They made it so that no respectable person could be a nazi, at least not out loud.

Unfortunately, the world isn't full of "respectable" people, and more to the point we now know that much of "respectability" is a wretched hypocrisy that allows base instincts to grow under the surface. And then there are those who simply don't share those middle-class mores, whose resentment and dislike of the unlike were barely touched by King's and Gandhi's efforts and goodness. Perhaps our middle-class cocoons protected us from their sneers for a few decades, though I've been called a fucking queer and told I should burn by better men - and women - than any of the unevolved vermin who gathered in Charlottesville with their cirtronella torches.

King, Gandhi and their like were builders of civilisation. But the thin veneer we call civilisation has never made nazism go away. It never will

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
ETA:
Ricardus--

(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth.

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I'll bet that not all of the alt-right demonstrators knew that, though.

"Noted traitor" may be how all reasonable people see Lee, but it's not very helpful in understanding their mindset.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be accurate, most probably don't care. They were there to promote white supremacy. Go ahead and think I am unreasonable for not empathising with that if you wish.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
the message I get from you that nobody on the other side of a conflict could, theoretically, ever be won over, and that how they got there is never worth thinking about.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You get the wrong message. There are people who can be won over. The difference between us is in how many backs must serve as a bridge in the attempt.

---

That's helpful in understanding where you're coming from; thank you.

Now Adeodatus, do have another go. Repair with gold, perhaps?

[ 14. August 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
In my experience, which admittedly is limited, people who are racist because they hold misconceptions and wrong ideas about black people/Jews/etc can be, with time and patience, persuaded to change their views. I'm also noting that it's not up to black or Jewish people to facilitate that change.

People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Well I really buggered that up, didn't I?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Now Adeodatus, do have another go. Repair with gold, perhaps?

---

Your smirk is almost audible. Watch out for those wrinkles...

Mike Godwin, originator of Godwin's Law, is ok with everyone calling the white supremacists who met in Charlottesville Nazis - link. It's come to this.
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

---

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

---

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

---

It doesn't matter. He committed the most evil deed. Our actions define us as well as our hearts.


 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

---

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

---

No, I don't think so. There's a line they crossed. They want to wallow in their sin, for whatever their motivation for that. No one forced them to travel to Charlottesville, made them display fascist symbols and chant Nazi slogans.

At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?

Because I'm going for "marching in uniform carrying swastikas". Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Witness the apostle Paul.

---

quote:

---

He didn't attack us. Refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I spend a lot of time with people convicted of offences who acted together with one or more others. There is usually a ringleader (often not the obvious person) and the majority of participants are in my view far less evil than that person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Witness the apostle Paul.

---

You do realise that the phrase 'Damascene conversion' involves actual divine intervention, right?

That's okay. God can show up in Richard Spencer's jail cell or by his hospital bed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by roybart:
No prophet's, it's ironic that you mention "shaming." What follows is from the Daily Stormer. I recommend that everyone have a look at this to learn something about the under-belly of American society, not so "under-belly" nowadays. Read especially the depiction of the counter-protestor who was rammed and killed during the riots. Look for the headline "Heather Heyer: Woman Killed in Road Rage Incident was a Fat, Childless 32-Year-Old Slut." Be prepared to be sickened/frightened/enraged.

By the way the approved alt-right label for these events is the "Battle of Charlottesville." Read the "Firsthand Account" The language of innocent, abused patriotism coexists on Daily Stormer with gutter vituperation, as rhetoric always does when it comes from the far-right.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It can happen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag

There is an absurd normalization of both the general identity and racialist politics, and a normalization of the president. Has it come time that there must be disrespect of the office of the president because of who holds the office? Is it collusion with the racialists to continue to respect the office notwithstanding the man? Is there a moral imperative to become honest about the defects and harmful intent of the man and to label them and the man clearly? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.

---

Oh, yes, obviously that's who he was referring to. Not, say, Antifa, who brought their own weapons, piss baloons, guns, etc. to Charlottesville.
(for one example covered in MSM, check 4/14)

There are many arguments that can be made about relative power and influence etc. when it comes to the "both sides bullshit" but when Antifa is attacking reporters at anti-white supremacy rallies (as happened again last night) asking people not to believe their own lying eyes while seemingly willfully misrepresenting their statements is likely to drive people away from your team.

But there's a free speech rally scheduled in Boston for the 19th (which was planned long before this weekend's disaster) and from what I hear both sides are preparing for serious violence and there's talk of people planning more rallies in other cities on the same date... so what the hell, why don't we all kick back, point fingers, and cast blame while we wait for Civil War 2.0 to kick off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is the bleakest moment in America in living memory.

---

Maybe if you're 10 years old...

[ 14. August 2017, 15:19: Message edited by: romanlion ]
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Just in case you need an enema


... I'm Zappa and I shat and upchucked at this message

(authorized by Zappa, yellow snow, celestial heavens)
 

---

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Deconstructing the Farcebook link, it appears you may zap your way here for your toileting.
 

---

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Rephrasing Hannah Arendt, "Gleichschaltung" is a German word which she defined as "falling into line, coordinating, accommodating as if business, governance and social relations is proceeding as usual, and all will be fine".

The suggestion that illegal immigration is the cause of the economic struggles of working-class whites is an American meme and provides the false truth which makes the racialism acceptable: Muslims and Mexicans are stabbing Americans in the back.
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
This WW2 anti-nazi propaganda film by the US War Department seems to be shared widely on social media at the moment, I am told: 'Don't be a sucker'; free download in better quality from the internet archive.
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
the degree to which "I was only following orders" is still considered a valid mitigating excuse by some folks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?

IJ

---

My immediate reaction is that Trump is like the six year old Johnny, who after hitting Suzie on the arm, belatedly and reluctantly says "Sorry" after his mother tells him to "say Sorry."

The difference might be that Johnny will grow up and figure out that that was the right thing to do and that hitting Suzie was wrong.

Trump won't.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, I rather got that impression, too.



IJ
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

---

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

---

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

---

It was done. It didn't work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.

As far as I'm concerned, I really can't see myself taking up sticks, stones, or bottles against a mob of any kind.

You can count me in with those leaders of different faiths facing them off with "this little light of mine" mentioned earlier.

Or perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

I'm not expecting you or your conscience to join me, or judging you if you don't, but that's definitely where I'd be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

---

It was done. It didn't work.

---

It did here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

---

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
And Dr. King didn't sing Kumbaya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

---

quote:

---

There are two sides here. One is the Nazis. The other is not the Nazis. There is no equivalence between them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

---

Join with those like you trying to be cotton wool in a box full of razor blades I hope.

---

I like the image of "setting one's face like flint" more. It might even do some blunting
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
And Dr. King didn't sing Kumbaya.

---

If he took up weapons against the other side, told his supporters to clear the streets of them while telling them to fuck off, it can't have made it into the sanitised biopic. Did I miss something or was that more Malcolm X?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
No, but I've put myself in the public gaze, in the media, linking hands with leaders of other faiths at a high-profile event in my city to take a stand against so-called Islamic terrorism.

If the far right were to get up to the cultural equivalent of Charlottesville where I am then I'd do so with no hesitation, but only because I've thought hard about it first.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

---

Join with those like you trying to be cotton wool in a box full of razor blades I hope.

---

I like the image of "setting one's face like flint" more. It might even do some blunting

---

the trouble is, putting my head where my armchair mouth is, it's liable to get externally as cracked as it is internally! Which one must bow it to. The blood of martyrs and all that.
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

And if they'd once turned around and come at us, I'd have folded my glasses into my pocket and I'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with my comrades - black, white, Asian, young, old, anarchists, communists, socialists, any one of goodwill.

There are two sides here. One is the Nazis. The other is not the Nazis. There is no equivalence between them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I would protest, loudly but peacefully.

When they tried to make speeches I would be with the crowd shouting them down and preventing the media from hearing them.

I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

---

quote:

---

So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

---

quote:

---

inhuman in our defence of humanity, harsh in defence of compassion, single-minded in defence of our disparity

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

---

Particularly since I had my gall bladder removed three days ago and am in a good deal of pain, I probably wouldn't be on the barricades.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

---

And if you don't have it even sitting behind a monitor, there is no question where you will be when it counts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

---

? As they did at Selma. Without attacking evil with violence. Were they wrong? Despite winning? Without killing anyone? Did they not show a better way?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

---

You've not given any indication you actually give a shit about anything except causing strife. Go back to masturbating over the press the alt-right are getting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
In my experience, which admittedly is limited, people who are racist because they hold misconceptions and wrong ideas about black people/Jews/etc can be, with time and patience, persuaded to change their views. I'm also noting that it's not up to black or Jewish people to facilitate that change.

People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
--
Someone can't be reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And frankly, I'm not going to suggest a quiet chat over a cup of tea while several hundred of them are marching down the street with Nazi flags. I don't think they're in the mood to listen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?
--
Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

---

You've not given any indication you actually give a shit about anything except causing strife. Go back to masturbating over the press the alt-right are getting.

---

You can do the world a favor as well fucktard. Run right out to your nearest un-permitted "counter-protest". I'm sure you get the notifications. Stand in the street while you are there.

Maybe then I'll have something to actually masturbate over...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anoesis:

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anoesis:
In a typical incident of this sort, there’s one aggressor, one victim, one person who calls the aggressor out on their behaviour, and forty-odd people who just sit there and watch it all play out. Now, I don’t think any of those forty people are inactive because they can’t figure out whose side to take.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

This is unreasonable, and unworthy of you, NP.

Look, I have never voted anywhere but left in my life, and the centre line here is a good way further leftward than it is in the States, but, you know, I try and operate on the basis that it's possible for people to have opinions and values that are very different from my own, and still not be advocates for crucifixion. I think that, despite the fact it feels like things are going to hell in a handcart at the moment, it probably remains the case that the majority of* those on the other side of the political divide from me are not savages, not animals, not absolutely, fundamentally, 'other'.

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

--edit: typo--

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by romanlion:
You can do the world a favor as well fucktard. Run right out to your nearest un-permitted "counter-protest". I'm sure you get the notifications. Stand in the street while you are there.

Maybe then I'll have something to actually masturbate over...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

---

This is unreasonable, and unworthy of you, NP.

Look, I have never voted anywhere but left in my life, and the centre line here is a good way further leftward than it is in the States, but, you know, I try and operate on the basis that it's possible for people to have opinions and values that are very different from my own, and still not be advocates for crucifixion. I think that, despite the fact it feels like things are going to hell in a handcart at the moment, it probably remains the case that the majority of* those on the other side of the political divide from me are not savages, not animals, not absolutely, fundamentally, 'other'.

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

--edit: typo--

---

Really? The guy they voted for said Mexicans are rapists, he said build a wall, he questioned the prior president's birth, doesn't like blacks counting his money (he wants Jews), complete shutdown on Muslims. And we haven't talked about he recommendation to treat women like shit, grabbing their genitals, blood coming out of her whatever. Mussolini made the trains run on time, so I guess he's a good guy?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
ETA:
Ricardus--

(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

---

Two notes: The rally under discussion was not a group of misguided southerners pining for a mythological cause. It was white supremacists using the statue to further their own cause.
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth. This isn't news. The response to the 2013 church shootings in this very same city shows that Southerners do understand this issue.
You are a good person for thinking kindly, but I think it is misguided in this case.

---

quote:

---

Re Lee, isn't the issue also that on the frame of reference used by the far-right, Lee can't be anything other than a traitor? If the Supreme Good is loyalty to your country, then taking up arms against your country isn't a terribly good way of demonstrating that.

---

I'm not an apologist for their cause, or saying "there, there". But the idea of loyalty to country is a complicated one. Plus I've got some anti-Southern stereotypes/prejudices that I'm gradually peeling away; so I'm trying to think, and not just react. And there are reasons why people do what they do. Knowing/exploring those reasons can help in figuring out what to do.

From what I understand, from news over the years, yes, many Southerners have found ways of moving on, and support getting rid of Confederacy-related items. But many others seem to have quite a visceral reaction against that.

Now, maybe the visceral-reaction folks consciously and whole-heartedly want to bring back slavery of African Americans, in all its horror. I doubt that's true of many/most of them. Most of what I've heard about is the Golden Age and Lost Cause stuff. They're not the first people to deal with that, and those ideas and feelings tend to run pretty deep. When you've got bad stuff, untruths, and maybe some good, but misused, stuff all tangled together, it's really hard to tease it all apart.

But, in the respectful and humble opinion of this non-Southerner, I think that the only way the relevant white Southerners can change this is to look at it, and dig through it, and get right down to the roots of it, and disentangle them.

As to using the statue: that tends to be why *any* historical/military statue is installed. Memorial, propaganda, fine-tuning history.

YMMV.
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Fine. They are lovely, wonderful people who just happen to repress the same group they were no longer allowed to enslave.
No one is perfect, but please.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{H/As--Would someone please remove my messy, partial post a couple of posts up ? I'm having connection problems, and that went through without my knowing.

Many thanks!}

[ 15. August 2017, 05:53: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
An addendum to note that I have been to the American South and met many lovely people. If they can properly process the history, there is much less an excuse for those who do not. It is 2017.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
lB--

Never said they're nice, lovely people. Nor excused what they've done. Just that there are reasons for anything that anyone does. And the bad things they do can't really be stopped/prevented, without getting at those reasons.

FYI: I've figured this out by working through things that have happened to me, and trying to come to terms with them, so that I can heal and move on. I'm a universalist, which means I believe that *everyone* will be healed and heal things they've done. No exceptions. And no "there, there, it's ok, have an ice lolly, you did nothing wrong", when there really was wrong. Just hard work and healing. Lollies later.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

---

Oh please. My being sensible about what goes into a counter-protest against well-armed fit young men is a problem for you?

The last time neo-Nazis rallied in Los Angeles, counter-protesters beat the shit out of a few of them and chased the rest away. I don't think my assistance was required.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

And if they'd once turned around and come at us, I'd have folded my glasses into my pocket and I'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with my comrades - black, white, Asian, young, old, anarchists, communists, socialists, any one of goodwill.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

---

? As they did at Selma. Without attacking evil with violence. Were they wrong? Despite winning? Without killing anyone? Did they not show a better way?

---

And if white Christians had joined en masse with our black brothers and sisters, would Selma have even been necessary?

No. No it wouldn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
A militia group showed up and interposed themselves between these two groups; the militia were armed to the teeth (...) And of course there were the cops, also armed, though not nearly as well as the neo-Nazis, who had better riot gear. It's a fucking miracle no shots were fired.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Had they achieved it, I'd have had to do more hard thinking about what I would do; previous discussions on the Ship would have informed my decision.

It's not directly comparable to my mind.

For one, the FN is an elected party, not an unelected rabble. For another, it expresses its nastiness in a much subtler manner and is a whole lot savvier about wrong-footing hotheaded opposition.

Either way, I wouldn't be taking up bottles, stones, or fists.

As it is they seem to be imploding nicely of their own accord. For now.

---

quote:

---

In the midst of the two groups, another force arrived. Dressed in full camouflage and outfitted with semiautomatic rifles and pistols, three dozen members of a self-styled militia walked onto the sidewalk. Christian Yingling, who described himself as the commander of the unit, said they were there to keep the peace. He said members of the Charlottesville Police Department welcomed their presence. Although Virginia is an open-carry state, the presence of the militia was unnerving to law enforcement officials on the scene.

“The militia showed up with long rifles, and we were concerned to have that in the mix,” said Virginia Secretary of Public Safety and Homeland Security Brian Moran, who worried that the rallygoers and counterprotesters would mistake the militia for National Guard forces. “They seemed like they weren’t there to cause trouble, but it was a concern to have rifles in that kind of environment.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Surely, if there's one thing we learn from Trump - it's that waiting till *after* they have control of the presidency is well fucking late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Protest doesn't have to be violent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
... I had my gall bladder removed three days ago ....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
{H/As--Would someone please remove my messy, partial post a couple of posts up ? I'm having connection problems, and that went through without my knowing.

Many thanks!}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Just to add that the most powerful image for me was the line of interfaith clergy standing unarmed in front of the militia armed with assault rifles. That is what presence can offer. Image posted by Kate Bishop Shaner

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Just to add that the most powerful image for me was the line of interfaith clergy standing unarmed in front of the militia armed with assault rifles. That is what presence can offer. Image posted by Kate Bishop Shaner

---

This.

---

quote:

---

Dr. @CornelWest says anti-fascist and anarchist protesters protected clergy from white nationalists Friday night: "They saved our lives"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
That.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is a bit of popular but erroneous neo-Confederate revisionism. The process that created the federal government, from the Constitutional Convention to the ratification by conventions rather than by the state governments, was designed to bypass the states, largely because the states would have refused to agree to the proposed Constitution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[QB] On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully.

---

quote:

---

What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

---

It would have been great if the UK immediately thought like this about us when it received the Declaration of Independence, signed by 56 traitors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Thought a scriptural response is due. Haven't decided if the dog or pig is more representative.

2 Peter 2:22(b)
"The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

---

Neither.

Dogs like the taste of vomit because it's the first food they eat. Their mum regurgitates for them.

Raw fed dogs often eat-vomit-eat again to aid the digestion of bone.

Peter simply didn't understand dogs.


 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[QB] On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully.

---

That part is correct.

quote:

---

What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge.

---

Dude . . .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

---

Nope. Nothing should have stopped their non-violent protest. And why would they have been killed?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Look at the pictures. Those people were carrying military-grade armaments -- assault rifles. The local police (starved of funding) do not have that kind of firepower. It makes keeping the peace much more dangerous and difficult.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
None of which were used.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
The neo-Nazis do have the right to free speech and peaceful demonstration. But Bannon knows as well as I do that you don't take weapons if your intention is purely peaceful. Antifa shows up to these things armed because they know the neo-Nazis will be armed.

---

quote:

---

And the reason for the protest in Charlottesville is that the city council voted to remove the statue of Robert E. Lee from the park.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Without unduly exaggerating the risks I face (which I deem low) I think I can be fairly said to put my life at risk to some extent in following my convictions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully. What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It appears the precipitating event, or at least the excuse, for the Charlottesville unpleasantness was the city council's decision to sell a piece of property that the town owns. So, it was a violent protest against property rights.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Were they armed? Were you? This is America, dude -- we're well past mere fists, bottles, and sticks. The neo-Nazis in Charlottesville came with shields and clubs, and the governor said in an interview that the ones not openly carrying firearms had them concealed. The antifa contingent came armed with sticks and shields. Both these groups had chemicals they sprayed at each other. A militia group showed up and interposed themselves between these two groups; the militia were armed to the teeth. And of course there were the cops, also armed, though not nearly as well as the neo-Nazis, who had better riot gear. It's a fucking miracle no shots were fired.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners.

---

No it wouldn't. That statue was erected in order to anchor the lie that the Civil War was not first and foremost about slavery. Placing it somewhere else would Merely continue that lie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners.

---

No it wouldn't. That statue was erected in order to anchor the lie that the Civil War was not first and foremost about slavery. Placing it somewhere else would Merely continue that lie.

---

Why don't you buy it from the owners and melt it down, then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, THAT's what gives you the right to judge everybody else on this thread! I was wondering!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, THAT's what gives you the right to judge everybody else on this thread! I was wondering!

---

I'm not judging anybody. But I think that when you snarkily suggest Boogie would have turned tail and fled at Selma Bridge, you deserve to be asked for your credentials.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Look at the pictures. Those people were carrying military-grade armaments -- assault rifles. The local police (starved of funding) do not have that kind of firepower. It makes keeping the peace much more dangerous and difficult.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin60:
None of which were used.

---

This time. Bringing guns served to escalate tensions. And, IMO, highlights their cowardice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

---

Boogie was honest enough to admit her fears.

You gratuitously put her on the line by challenging her as to whether she would have stayed on the bridge at Selma.

The implication being that she ought to be able to overcome her fears and stay.

So I would like to know what entitles you to put her on the line like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
I understand the ship a little better. It's okay to tell someone to die screaming, but not to ask if they would stand against the water cannons on the bridge at Selma. Really I had thought better of the ship than this. Today has been an awakening.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I would protest, loudly but peacefully.

When they tried to make speeches I would be with the crowd shouting them down and preventing the media from hearing them.

I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

---

So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Perhaps instead of second-guessing what other Shipmates would have done on the bridge at Selma you'd like to tell us what you'd have done and what personal experience you base your estimation on?

---

quote:

---

Or at least stop trying to change the subject.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Something is going to give.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
I didn't second-guess, fuckwit. I ASKED. Maybe some people's questions are all rhetorical questions and they know the answers beforehand, or think they do. Maybe you are one of those persons, I don't know. Some people actually ask questions that are questions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:


I am not Gandhi. I am more inclined toward Madiba. (Before you get all sanctimonious with me, remember UMkhonto we Sizwe.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Boogie seemed to be saying she wouldn't stand up to the thugs. I wanted to clarify: really? You wouldn't stand up even at a place like Selma?

---

quote:

---

Interestingly she hasn't had a chance to answer this

---

quote:

---

our exchange has been hijacked by the self-righteous brigade (starring you)

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Or at least stop trying to change the subject.

---

How we would stand up to tyranny if we were on the firing line is very much within the remit of this thread.

---

quote:

---

How many of us know what we might do if the next Charlottesville turns out to be our home town?

---

quote:

---

At least we can work out in theory what we might choose in discussions exactly like this thread.

---

quote:

---

But sometimes threads in Hell fulfill other purposes than mere shrieking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
1) My family has a history of anti-fascist activity.

2) I have a history of anti-fascist activity.

3) I spent four years in grad school neck-deep in studying fascism.

4) I have been the victim of targeted identity violence.

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Something that may give you a smile. If they're allowed down here.

---

Thanks for that!
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I would stand up to thugs, and have done many times (Thuggish parents intent on harming me/other pupils/other teachers)

I have also been in difficult situations where I had to choose whether to talk run or fight.

I don't scare easily and go very calm in those kind of situations..

My sons went to a very rough school and were threatened with knives a few times, my advice was 'run like the wind'. Once my son ran home. He knew who the boy was, so I went round to their house and confronted his mother, letting her know what her son was up to and how he'd turn out if she didn't take him in hand.

But all my 'standing up to people' involves words, I can't hurt people, or any living thing - as I said - even a wasp. I just catch them and put them out of the house.

My words on this thread came not from fear, but from helplessness. If they were walking down my street with guns and torches I'd be useless.

I wasn't annoyed by mousetheif's question, it made me think. I still don't know the answer as to what I would have done, who does?

We were brought up in apartheid South Africa and my family broke the law all the time, my Dad worked in black Soweto, we were perfectly safe there as we were well known and my Dad was a minister. When confronted by police with guns he acted innocent 'I'm so sorry, we didn't know, we've only just arrived from England' ( a lie) No point getting arrested. Went round the corner and continued breaking the law (black people in the car with us etc etc). My Mum did the same. We were expected to be separate from black people in every way. We were the opposite, they were our friends, we ate with them and they stayed with us as guests.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Boogie--

Are you familiar with talk-show host Trevor Noah? He's originally from S. Africa. Black mom, Swiss (?) dad. His very existence was a crime, and he wrote a book called "Born A Crime". Though I haven't read it, I've seen interviews where he talked about it and about his experiences. They had to do all sorts of dodges to stay out of trouble--including getting a white nanny, to give the illusion of Trevor having a white mom and a black nanny.
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

---

Boogie was honest enough to admit her fears.

You gratuitously put her on the line by challenging her as to whether she would have stayed on the bridge at Selma.

The implication being that she ought to be able to overcome her fears and stay.

So I would like to know what entitles you to put her on the line like that.

---

I understand the ship a little better. It's okay to tell someone to die screaming, but not to ask if they would stand against the water cannons on the bridge at Selma. Really I had thought better of the ship than this. Today has been an awakening.

---

You're confusing Selma with Birmingham.

"The first march took place on March 7, 1965, organized locally by Bevel, Amelia Boynton, and others. State troopers and county possemen attacked the unarmed marchers with billy clubs and tear gas after they passed over the county line, and the event became known as Bloody Sunday. Law enforcement beat Boynton unconscious, and the media publicized worldwide a picture of her lying wounded on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. ... troopers began shoving the demonstrators, knocking many to the ground and beating them with nightsticks. Another detachment of troopers fired tear gas, and mounted troopers charged the crowd on horseback."

No mention of water cannon. We know that you would have heroically stood up against them, because you self righteously less say so, but what about the white law enforcers with tear gas, billy clubs and cavalry?
 

---

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :
 
None of us know what we will do until we face a crisis.

That Mountain View will have an alt-right/white supremacist/whatever march hits close. The site of the march is less than 4 miles from me and I have friends working at Google.

There will be a counter protest at the Mountain View Civic Center from 1-3 p.m. on Saturday, Aug. 19 (this is a different time and place than the alt-right march; confrontation is not intended). I'm planning to attend.
 

---

Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on :
 
GK, Boogie. Trevor Noah and Charlize Theron are currently in South Africa and working with schools and youth programmes. Trevor is also doing a number of shows around the country, did a very interesting interview on the local TV programme Carte Blanche in which he talked about how South Africans grow up thinking politically where most Americans are educated to be apolitical, not suspicious of institutions or laws, not as likely to protest or refuse to comply. He said our politicised lawlessness isn't always smart.

Trevor and Charlize in SA

Boogie, I don't think anyone knows what he or she will do in a life-threatening crisis or faced with violence. We all like to think we'd do the right thing but who knows? In 1998 I had a gun held to my head in downtown Johannesburg, stayed calm and kept talking to the mugger, pleading for my life, asking him about his family and what had happened to him to make him so angry. He let me go. I gave evidence to the police, had therapy, coped. In 2006, I was in a plane that bucketed around in turbulence over Nairobi in Kenya. I wet myself with terror, threw up and couldn't get my own oxygen mask on, had to be helped and didn't sleep for a week afterwards. IMHO, we just don't know ourselves well enough to say we'd be brave or self-protective or fall to pieces.
 

---

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :
 
We can improve with training. Special forces get special training. It's designed to be worse than most combat. Oh and by the way MaryLouise, you passed. Nothing beats surviving real situations
 

---

Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on :
 
Thanks, Martin60, but being able to reliably predict if we'd react with heroic fortitude or common sense or prudence would be more noteworthy!
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
2. This thread is about Nazis. Actual Nazis. Those guys are the bad guys. Not anyone on this thread. People on this thread are not the bad guys.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

---

quote:

---

Parts of this discussion remind me of the pilots' forum I lurk on in which (to the regulars) it quickly becomes apparent which posters are actual pilots and which have flying hours that don't extend beyond the simulator program on their desktop PC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

---

No, no, it really doesn't make sense. It's willy waving. You have the biggest willy because you work in the prison system with the door open and no beeper on. You win. Okay? Here, have a prize or something. You're the most bad-ass of all. This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize? Because it's what you've been fishing for.

quote:

---

Parts of this discussion remind me of the pilots' forum I lurk on in which (to the regulars) it quickly becomes apparent which posters are actual pilots and which have flying hours that don't extend beyond the simulator program on their desktop PC.

---

Yep. You're the real deal. The rest of us are all imitators. No one has the Nazi-busting chops like you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize?

---

quote:

---

Yep. You're the real deal. The rest of us are all imitators.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
You've failed so far to put any actual experience on the table.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I want you to acknowledge that your challenge to Boogie came across as a gratuitous cheap shot in the absence of any claim by you as to how you yourself would react in the same circumstances.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
And in a conversation about putting oneself in situations where might one endanger one's life during the course of which several posters have been implying that the only self-respecting option in this case is to rush out and do so immediately, it makes sense to me to find out who is speaking from a position of experience - especially when criticism is implied - and who is simply posturing.

---

No, no, it really doesn't make sense. It's willy waving. You have the biggest willy because you work in the prison system with the door open and no beeper on. You win. Okay? Here, have a prize or something. You're the most bad-ass of all. This is what you want, right? The Mr. Badass Prize? Because it's what you've been fishing for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Leave me the fuck out of it.

---

quote:

---

Most of us, I think, are in mr cheesy's position. We'd like to think we are tough but we don't know how we'd really react when it came right down to it.

---

quote:

---

would have turned tail and fled?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

And yet I'm also worried about the rhetorical atmosphere in my country. People have been loudly declaring that it's perfectly legitimate to punch Nazis for some time now. But the definition of Nazi being used worries me. The founder of Daily Kos and co-founder of Vox (left-wing sites with a fair amount of influence on that side of the political spectrum) recently declared that the NRA and American conservative/Nazis are one in the same. That's a lot of Nazis that people would apparently be justified in attacking. Antifa has a history of attacking people and property that have nothing to do with the evil they are allegedly protesting (I also have questions about people who feel strongly enough about an issue that they're willing to use violence but aren't willing to reveal their faces and show up to other people's organized protests wearing masks).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Can we leave this now?

I'd probably have fled Selma. How about attacking me for that rather than someone else?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
You've failed so far to put any actual experience on the table.

---

Maybe I haven't made myself crystal clear. I am not going to get into a willy waving contest with you or any other shipmate about how my experience proves I'm a tough guy more than they are. I don't know why you've got such a hardon for this kind of a showdown. Maybe you need to go buy a sports car or something. Leave me the fuck out of it.

Most of us, I think, are in mr cheesy's position. We'd like to think we are tough but we don't know how we'd really react when it came right down to it. (I thought I had said that earlier but maybe you couldn't hear me over the sound of your willy waving?)

I have no "moralising" to offer, so you'll not have to listen to any of it. Now put your dick away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
Why? You had the honesty to admit that before suggesting that somebody else would, when you implied they should stay.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:


Mousethief's very first post on the issue of staying at a potentially violent demonstration was not speculation on what he himself might or might not have done, or sharing any relevant experience he may have had, but instead simply to suggest that another poster would have run away, leaving his own actions or intentions unsaid.

---

quote:

---

Boogie:
I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

---

quote:

---

Mousethief:
So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Boogie:
I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

---

quote:

---

Mousethief:
So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

---

Boogie admits that he/she would have been no use against guns and torches. Mousethief wonders aloud whether maybe Boogie might have felt a bit different in a circumstance like Selma bridge.

I don't see the problem here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Thanks, Martin60, but being able to reliably predict if we'd react with heroic fortitude or common sense or prudence would be more noteworthy!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
1) My family has a history of anti-fascist activity.

2) I have a history of anti-fascist activity.

3) I spent four years in grad school neck-deep in studying fascism.

4) I have been the victim of targeted identity violence.

Nazi? Beat the fucker up. My reasoned argument will have no impact on him. My baseball bat, however.....

---

Well, good for you! Is your dick really huge too?

My family has a brief history of fascist activity.

My family is Mennonite on both sides, going back for hundreds of years. So only one person in my family fought in World War II, and he was a Nazi. Having suffered under Stalin before the family escaped the Crimea, Great-uncle Heinrich left the US to go fight for Germany. I have the letters he wrote after he'd left home but not yet reached Germany, signed "Heil Hitler." My grandmother, his sister, loved him. He was a real person, a human being. He took up arms against something he hated, something that had come close to ruining his family. He never came home, and no one knew what happened to him until my youngest brother lived in Germany in the early 2000s and did some research and found out where his unit was when it was completely wiped out. But my grandmother had died in 1979.

Go ahead and feel all warm and excited about your willingness to pick up a baseball bat. Maybe indulge in the myth of redemptive violence while you're at it. It'll feel good. Maybe even bashing in someone's head will feel good, or at least imagining it might be -- shattered bone, blood everywhere, maybe even some brains if you get in some really good blows. And then imagine telling someone you'd bashed her brother's head in.

Or come to the US and get shot because you took a bat to a gunfight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
The founder of Daily Kos and co-founder of Vox (left-wing sites with a fair amount of influence on that side of the political spectrum) recently declared that the NRA and American conservative/Nazis are one in the same. That's a lot of Nazis that people would apparently be justified in attacking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
“Random girls will want to have sex with you. Because you’re the bad boys. . . . Every girl on the planet wants [you] now.” '

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
That can happen if you make videos warning white people that the black hordes are coming to murder them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
The founder of Daily Kos and co-founder of Vox (left-wing sites with a fair amount of influence on that side of the political spectrum) recently declared that the NRA and American conservative/Nazis are one in the same. That's a lot of Nazis that people would apparently be justified in attacking.

---

That can happen if you make videos warning white people that the black hordes are coming to murder them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
After the Bmore to Cville march on Sunday night, the city announced a decision to remove its Confederate monuments.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
[QUOTE] From what I've read this morning, they were taken down overnight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Something is going to give.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
[QUOTE] From what I've read this morning, they were taken down overnight.

---

Yes, I believe I mentioned that in my post ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Something is going to give.

---

In someways predictably, it's the business sector that is showing the greatest stress factors in the Trumpian infrastructure

---

Sad. Bigly sad. From all sides.

"Fuck me gently with a chainsaw" (-Heathers, 1988 movie).
 

---

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Watching Trump tweet his way to supporing the many nice people who marched with the white supremacists I was struck by how Trump has pre-empted Godwin's Law.
It has been noted that the Jews in his administration have largely been silent.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Yeah, what about Jared?

Here's a better thought that is making the rounds:
By Rabbi Michael Adam Latz:

First they came for transpeople and I spoke up -- because God does NOT make mistakes!
They came for the African Americans and I spoke up -- because I am my sisters’ and my brothers’ keeper.
And then they came for the women and I spoke up -- because women hold up half the sky.
And then they came for the immigrants and I spoke up -- because I remember the ideals of our democracy.
And then they came for the Muslims and I spoke up -- because they are my cousins and we are one human family.
And then they came for the Native Americans and Mother Earth and I spoke up -- because the blood-soaked land cries and the mountains weep.
They keep coming. We keep rising up. Because we Jews know the cost of silence. We remember where we come from.
And we will link arms, because when you come for our neighbors, you come for us— and THAT just won’t stand.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh. Wow. That brought tears to my eyes......



IJ
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Oh. Wow. That brought tears to my eyes......



IJ

---

Mine too.


 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Watching Trump tweet his way to supporing the many nice people who marched with the white supremacists I was struck by how Trump has pre-empted Godwin's Law.
It has been noted that the Jews in his administration have largely been silent.

---

I've been sitting here, wondering if T has absorbed the thought that the (type of) people he's supporting would happily kill Jared, Ivanka, and their kids...
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I'm not sure that such joined-up thinking is Darth Vader II's forte...



BTW, the Jews in his administration are probably silent because their lower jaws have dropped, and have not yet returned to their usual position.

IJ
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BTW, the Jews in his administration are probably silent because their lower jaws have dropped, and have not yet returned to their usual position.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:


Y'know, there's a reason the KKK wore hoods.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh here's a heartbreaker. Get your tissues. A neo-Nazi has apparently made a video of himself blubbering because there's a warrant out for his arrest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh here's a heartbreaker. Get your tissues. A neo-Nazi has apparently made a video of himself blubbering because there's a warrant out for his arrest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a white rural fellow's opinion of the affair. Crowder is a professional comedian and therefore this is not especially profanity free.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a white rural fellow's opinion of the affair. Crowder is a professional comedian and therefore this is not especially profanity free.

---

As always funny as hell and very cogent. Love that guy. "Losers who fetishize other losers." Yep.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a white rural fellow's opinion of the affair. Crowder is a professional comedian and therefore this is not especially profanity free.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a white rural fellow's opinion of the affair. Crowder is a professional comedian and therefore this is not especially profanity free.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Rosa Park's bus is in the Smithsonian, as is the famous Woolworth's lunch counter. The African American Museum opened on the Mall last year, and it has an entire floor devoted to the slavery of the past.

---

There is a difference between a monument and a museum, though. Museums are special places we hide history away in. Monuments are out in public.
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This is probably far more detail than most people need, and also it's from the POST. A deconstruction and analysis of every single symbol flaunted in Charlottesville last weekend.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Arnold S. called T out:

"Arnold Schwarzenegger teaches Trump how to respond to Nazis" (Yahoo). That's text, and refers to a video. If it's on that page, my security stuff must be blocking it.

I was mostly unhappy with Arnold when he was governor here; and there were sexual accusations against him, somewhat similar to those against T. But, this time, Arnold did good.
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Watched the two videos of Cantwell. In the first one he is triumphant that someone on the other side was killed but no one on his side. He said there will be a lot more deaths before it's all over, and the white supremacists achieve their "ethnostate."

In the second of course he is all blubbery because there's a warrant out for his arrest and he's such a lawful guy.

Coward.
 

---

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Brenda, that Washington Post article was fascinating, unfortunately my crappy internet connection bombed out part way through my reading it, but now I know it exists I can check it out at the Library which has a subscription

Mousethief - sounds like most bullies, dishing it out is fun, but being on the receiving end is horrible. As the kids in my childhood playground would have said - "It serves him right".

Huia
 

---

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
If you don't have a POST subscription you can often get it through your public library -- go to their web site and check. Also, the POST will give you a free subscription if you have a .mil or .edu address, or if you're an Amazon Prime member (because Jeff Bezos owns the POST).

This is a free click, with some mild profanity. The KKK marches in Tennessee, where they are met by clowns. The ones dressed as brides are particularly charming.
 

---

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If you don't have a POST subscription . . . the POST will give you a free subscription if you have a .mil or .edu address.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
[...] This is a free click, with some mild profanity. The KKK marches in Tennessee, where they are met by clowns. The ones dressed as brides are particularly charming.

---

Thanks, Brenda. Made my day!
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Except, as a grammar nazi, I'd like to point out that there's no apostrophe for the plural form of nazis - not nazi's.

Carry on.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If you don't have a POST subscription . . . the POST will give you a free subscription if you have a .mil or .edu address.

---

One of my addresses is .edu. I tried subscribing but they ask you for payment option before asking you your e-mail address. There is no button to click for "Subscribe for free (.edu)".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is probably far more detail than most people need, and also it's from the POST. A deconstruction and analysis of every single symbol flaunted in Charlottesville last weekend.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dyfrig:
Then you are a dick. Fascists afe not just another option in a political cafeteria open to anyone with a moral compass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Arnold S. called T out:

"Arnold Schwarzenegger teaches Trump how to respond to Nazis" (Yahoo). That's text, and refers to a video. If it's on that page, my security stuff must be blocking it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The full video is on youtube.

---

Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A Southern Baptist discusses why Evangelicals don't care about racism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If you're Republican from Virginia you are racist.

Virginia Republican Twitter Feed

---

Thank you. I read all the way to the end and it was most enjoyable.
 

---

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 
Speaking of racists who try to deny it after the fact, there's this video of a white supremacist in Charlottesville shucking himself out of his white supremacist uniform (the white polo shirt and khaki combo we've all become much more familiar with) and trying to blend in with the crowd.

The videographer who shot the footage wrote about it for GQ.

quote:

---

Since I'm a person of color, my identity is not a uniform I can take off when I am feeling unsafe — when I'm stopped by police or when my white girlfriend and I travel through southern towns where Confederate flags billow from porches and pickup trucks. Like all minorities, I’ve grown used to the way that difference marks me — the burden of being ever ready for the moment my skin turns me into a target for angry white men determined to take back what they think the world owes them.

The video of this part-time Nazi, this junior secessionist, is a perfect portrait of the very white privilege the so-called “alt-right” decries as liberal fiction. White privilege isn’t just an easy bank loan or the cumulative effects of discriminatory housing policy. It's also the privilege to disappear. The privilege to terrorize a community and return to your regular life with the ease of peeling off a polo shirt. The privilege to come to someone else’s town, invoke the symbols and slogans used to terrorize Jews, African-Americans, and countless other races in history’s darkest chapters, and pretend it’s simply your way of showing ethnic pride. It’s the privilege to engage in terror “for fun,” and the privilege to walk away. For most of my life, I've thought of racism as the vestiges of a dying generation. It's far more terrifying to behold a sea of young people for whom white supremacy is just a rec-league sport.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If you're Republican from Virginia you are racist.

Virginia Republican Twitter Feed

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A Southern Baptist discusses why Evangelicals don't care about racism.

---

Yet this "outside world is going to Hell in a handcart so don't bother" doesn't extend to sexuality, gender or reproductive rights?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
But their whole (stated) purpose is to keep those outsiders from going to Hell in a handbasket so it's not that they aren't bothering about them, just not bothering much about what happens to them during their life on earth.

---

quote:

---

He wanted us to care for the sick and hungry, love one another,

---

quote:

---

but ultimately it's the believing in him that gets us and the recipients of our good works into Heaven, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
If you believe that doing good works on earth is all that matters then are you a Christian or just a really good person?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

If you believe that doing good works on earth is all that matters then are you a Christian or just a really good person?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
A Christian would not walk past because he is knows that he should love his neighbor and care for the weak.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
A Christian would not walk past because he is knows that he should love his neighbor and care for the weak.

---

If you need to be a Christian to know that then you're a sociopath.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

If you believe that doing good works on earth is all that matters then are you a Christian or just a really good person?

---

Again. If Jesus needs you to believe in him, then he isn't a good person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think he "needs," me to believe in him, I think he wants me to, based on things he said.

---

quote:

---

Whether or not he's a "good person" doesn't come into it for me. I don't think he was a person at all so I wouldn't judge him by human standards. Who knows why he wants me to believe in him?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:


Whether or not he's a "good person" doesn't come into it for me. I don't think he was a person at all so I wouldn't judge him by human standards. Who knows why he wants me to believe in him?

---

quote:

---

It's important that we remember our heritage, and it's very important we remember our history, for those people that forget their heritage ... are doomed to repeat it again,

---

quote:

---

Debbie Weir, a retired attendee, said the monument stands for everything her ancestors endured, adding that she enjoyed people from different states coming together "to prove that we are one nation."

"It's always a good day when Confederates come together," Weir said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Look. If you want to be a Humanist, be a Humanist. Just don't call it Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

If you don't think believing in the divinity of Jesus is a vitally important part of being a Christian, read the third chapter of John.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
A Christian would not walk past because he is knows that he should love his neighbor and care for the weak.

---

If you need to be a Christian to know that then you're a sociopath.

---

Yes, of course, but the question was about whether or not helping the woman was as important a part of being a Christian as "belief in Jesus." If the person is going to help the woman anyway -- then it's not part of the discussion about works vs faith.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

"It's always a good day when Confederates come together,"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Look. If you want to be a Humanist, be a Humanist. Just don't call it Christianity.

---

How dare you demolish some of the many mansions. Wrecking ball.

And in contradistinction, I've been told I can't distinguish the racist-evangellos on another thread.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

If you don't think believing in the divinity of Jesus is a vitally important part of being a Christian, read the third chapter of John.

---

Bibliolatry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:


Whether or not he's a "good person" doesn't come into it for me. I don't think he was a person at all so I wouldn't judge him by human standards. Who knows why he wants me to believe in him?

---

I thought the heart of `Christianity was 'One God, three persons - the trinity'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
So God and the Holy spirit are people, too?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
If you don't think believing in the divinity of Jesus is a vitally important part of being a Christian, read the third chapter of John.

---

Bibliolatry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
A Christian would not walk past because he is knows that he should love his neighbor and care for the weak.

---

If you need to be a Christian to know that then you're a sociopath.

---

Yes, of course, but the question was about whether or not helping the woman was as important a part of being a Christian as "belief in Jesus." If the person is going to help the woman anyway -- then it's not part of the discussion about works vs faith.

---

The question about Christians, the question FOR Christians, is not to compare what they would do with what a non-Christian would do. It's to compare what they SHOULD do with what they DO do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
So God and the Holy spirit are people, too?

---

Not people. Persons.

In classical trinitarianism, God comprises the following three persons:

1. The Father
2. The Son (Jesus Christ)
3. The Holy Spirit.

One God, three persons. This is Christianity 101. Cf. the so-called Athanasian so-called Creed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
If you don't think believing in the divinity of Jesus is a vitally important part of being a Christian, read the third chapter of John.

---

Bibliolatry.

---

I hardly think that basing one's soteriology on verses in the Bible counts as bibliolatry, if that words is to have any meaning other than "preoccupation of persons more theologically conservative than I am, and whom I dislike."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

The idea that being Christian is a giant push on the button, and nothing you've done is a problem, is a problem. You can't give your heart to Jesus and then live like satan. It makes the conversion a sham. False news. Unrecognizable. Mere words, window dressing and a lie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

Stop worrying about other people's souls. God has all that covered. Trust him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
True. But using "bibliolatry" as a smear against those--biblically interested?--becomes a weariness of the soul after a while to those of us Kerygmaniacally inclined.

---

quote:

---

an excessive adherence to the literal interpretation of the Bible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is a valid term for those who cling to verses despite the bible's obvious inconsistencies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
A Christian would not walk past because he is knows that he should love his neighbor and care for the weak.

---

If you need to be a Christian to know that then you're a sociopath.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A Southern Baptist discusses why Evangelicals don't care about racism.

---

Yet this "outside world is going to Hell in a handcart so don't bother" doesn't extend to sexuality, gender or reproductive rights?

---

I don't like the Southern Baptist church because of their stance on a wide variety of issues. On the other hand, their focus on where one spends eternity vs focus on the quality of this infinitesimal bit of time on Earth seems right to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is a valid term for those who cling to verses despite the bible's obvious inconsistencies.

---

There aren't as many inconsistencies in the words of Jesus as some might like to think. I wouldn't say I cling to those verses, and I don't take every word of the Bible literally, but I do pay attention to his words, because it's the only way I have to try to know him.

---

quote:

---

It's easier for those who have built God in their own image. They only need to ask themselves what they think is right and assume he must agree.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I damn well DO cling to any number of verses, and to the Bible as a whole. And I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, as a sociopath, it's only the teachings of Jesus that stop me from burning this whole shitpile down, with all you meatsacks in it.

Be grateful for small mercies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Being a sociopath grants one no special abilities. It is a lacking, not a power.
Besides, symptoms tend to lessen with age, so...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The hottest part of hell is reserved for the idiot monk who divided the bible into verses. Made it look like an almost infinite number of individual statements with intrinsic independent truth value.

He is, to my mind, the first bibliolator because he created these units, obscuring the true construction of biblical texts. Those that hold on to small fragments without interpreting them in the context of the whole are his descendents, and leading themselves into the same hell.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, as a sociopath, it's only the teachings of Jesus that stop me from burning this whole shitpile down, with all you meatsacks in it.

Be grateful for small mercies.

---

Now we just need the rusty farm implements.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Lamb Chopped--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I damn well DO cling to any number of verses, and to the Bible as a whole. And I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

---

Nor should you. Particularly if it's something that helps or comforts you, or gives you guidance.

Now, if it's the OT instructions for how to properly dig a latrine, I might suggest you either just buy a Porta-Potty, or double-check book, chapter, and verse, in case you're supposed to be somewhere else!


There all kinds of ways to relate to the Bible. Not all of them involve slicing and dicing it, like a Veg-o-Matic (Wikipedia), and systematically rearranging individual, shredded words to see if they mean anything and have any relationship to each other. (Also rather like the Auditors in T. Pratchett's "Thief Of Time"--they don't understand art *at all*, and demolish a picture down to a pile of dust, trying to understand it.)

[Fixed link. You're welcome]

[ 30. August 2017, 08:46: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
ThunderBunk--

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
The hottest part of hell is reserved for the idiot monk who divided the bible into verses. Made it look like an almost infinite number of individual statements with intrinsic independent truth value.

He is, to my mind, the first bibliolator because he created these units, obscuring the true construction of biblical texts. Those that hold on to small fragments without interpreting them in the context of the whole are his descendents, and leading themselves into the same hell.

---

Might be mighty hard to find anything, without the divisions.

Is this an "I need an antacid!" sort of day?
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Lamb Chopped--

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I damn well DO cling to any number of verses, and to the Bible as a whole. And I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

---

Nor should you. Particularly if it's something that helps or comforts you, or gives you guidance.

Now, if it's the OT instructions for how to properly dig a latrine, I might suggest you either just buy a Porta-Potty, or double-check book, chapter, and verse, in case you're supposed to be somewhere else!

---

You know, you're tempting me...

I promise to do the dig-a-hole thing the next time I find myself living in an Iron Age camp or walled city. Absent that situation, I think I'll settle for modern toilets.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
There all kinds of ways to relate to the Bible. Not all of them involve slicing and dicing it, like a Veg-o-Matic (Wikipedia), and systematically rearranging individual, shredded words to see if they mean anything and have any relationship to each other. (Also rather like the Auditors in T. Pratchett's "Thief Of Time"--they don't understand art *at all*, and demolish a picture down to a pile of dust, trying to understand it.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Might be mighty hard to find anything, without the divisions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Might be mighty hard to find anything, without the divisions.

---

Exactly! This is why no one ever quotes anything from regular books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Are you seriously suggesting we do page numbers with name of author?

Because there happen to be just a few different editions out there, and things could get sticky rather quickly.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Of course, the danger of actually teaching the bible with context and everything is that one's context might be challenged.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

Of course, that goes both ways, doesn't it? The *challenger's* context might be challenged, too.

And I don't know what you think goes on in Sunday School and church; but IME there's a whole lotta teachin' goin' on--with context.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
lb--

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Of course, the danger of actually teaching the bible with context and everything is that one's context might be challenged.

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{sweetly}

Of course, that goes both ways, doesn't it? The *challenger's* context might be challenged, too.

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And I don't know what you think goes on in Sunday School and church; but IME there's a whole lotta teachin' goin' on--with context.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
So you're saying no one should ever quote the Bible? I don't get that either.

Can we quote other books?

How about "The God Delusion?"

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

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Karl - what a brilliant idea for an international day The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

Huia
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

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Originally posted by Huia:
The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

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Originally posted by Huia:
The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

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I don't see how that follows.

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Yeah. You'll have to let us know where you're going with that.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by mdijon:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something?

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Originally posted by Huia:
The world would be in such confusion that it might begin to make sense.

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I don't see how that follows.

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Yeah. You'll have to let us know where you're going with that.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
So you're saying no one should ever quote the Bible? I don't get that either.

Can we quote other books?

How about "The God Delusion?"

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Is this International Non-sequitur Day or something? What you can't do is expect a single out of context verse to be a convincing argument for anything.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning. "Jesus was only talking about during months without "R"s when he said that."

Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning. "Jesus was only talking about during months without "R"s when he said that."

Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

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Because no one quotes Life of Brian without wanting to be witty, funny or sent into the hallway from class. No one quotes Martin King or John Kennedy except that they want to inspire. I suppose they could misuse quotes from such people to hurt and oppress, but I'm unaware if that's happened.

But people quote the bible so they can burn others at the stake, decide that certain groups of people shouldn't have rights to live perfectly decent lives with rights, so that they can violate the teachings of the religion's hero because apparently Jesus was a racist, truly wanted to be rich, was homophobic, a men’s rights activist and in the past, pro-slavery (he's always been a white guy right?) "Clobber texts" is one of the ways of talking about it. The proof texters usually want clobber other people. Sure sometimes they want to channel something in King James language because it is poetical, but that hardly justifies the clobbering.

So you've got people pretty sensitive when bible verses get chanted. I suppose Buddhists could do that, but do they?

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Originally posted by Clutch:

If you have to rely on the Bible as your own tool in your arsenal, what makes you any different then a fundamentalist of any stripe or creed?

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Originally posted by Twilight:

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Originally posted by Clutch:

If you have to rely on the Bible as your own tool in your arsenal, what makes you any different then a fundamentalist of any stripe or creed?

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No one suggested using that as one's only tool.

If you leave the world to think the only verse in the Bible is the OT one calling homosexuality an "abomination," then the bigots have succeeded. Why not whisper a few of Jesus' words about love and not judging?

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Originally posted by Twilight:

This whole fussy "No proof texting from the Bible!" makes no sense to me. If you think the text doesn't apply because of "context," then it's up to you to explain how the context changes the meaning.

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Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It doesn't matter much what we sensible people might think. Bible quoters are always bigots.

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Thanks a lot. This whole tangent started because I quoted Jesus' words* about the importance of believing in him. I am not a bigot. If you think everyone who ever quotes the bible is a bigot then I think you might be an anti-Christian bigot yourself.

*Jesus' words as reported by John.*

*Specifically the John who may or may not be a disciple, an apostle, the same John who wrote Revelation or Jesus' gay lover.

*Attributed to John by some group of clergymen*
about or around 200 to 300 AD, give or take, I can't remember.

* Clergymen: They claim.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I wonder if thete's anything to be said in being the Word of God to the world, rather than speaking it? Sort of like with the Incarnation. I know Jesus preached as well, but that was in the context of being the Word, and it was that being that gave him authority and credibility. Perhaps that's one problem with proof-texting; it's so often done in the context of being not the Word of God but rather a judgemental hateful arse.

[ 31. August 2017, 19:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
.....nice turn of phrase right there at the end.

[ 31. August 2017, 19:16: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Wow, this discussion has gotten ugly!
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Twilight--

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Let's try backing a Buddhist against the wall about his religion while not allowing any words of Buddha in the debate. See how that works.

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Well, they could imitate the Buddha's Flower Sermon, and simply hold up a flower. That's got to be the best sermon ever.

 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

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Originally posted by Twilight:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It doesn't matter much what we sensible people might think. Bible quoters are always bigots.

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Thanks a lot. This whole tangent started because I quoted Jesus' words* about the importance of believing in him.

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I am not a bigot. If you think everyone who ever quotes the bible is a bigot then I think you might be an anti-Christian bigot yourself.

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*Jesus' words as reported by John.*

*Specifically the John who may or may not be a disciple, an apostle, the same John who wrote Revelation or Jesus' gay lover.

*Attributed to John by some group of clergymen*
about or around 200 to 300 AD, give or take, I can't remember.

* Clergymen: They claim.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[qb] Bible quoters are always bigots.

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I am not a bigot. If you think everyone who ever quotes the bible is a bigot then I think you might be an anti-Christian bigot yourself.

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This is not what anyone said. not even close.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am saying in current public perception as displayed all over social media everyone thinks bible quoters are Bad. Quote at your peril.

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