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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

He never swore an oath to uphold the constitution of his state. As an Army Officer, he did swear an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States of America. He is a traitor.
Wouldn't matter if he had. There is a precedence of alliance in America and Federal is paramount.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

Not really. The states created the federal government, not the other way around. I won't fault a guy for not willing to lead an army against his own home.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

No, no it can't.

One side came with Nazi flags and an armed militia. They came with flaming torches.

Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

Yes, they are Nazis. The other riots were anarchists. I don't have anything for either.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Doc Tor
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I must have missed the one where heavily armed anarchists took to the streets, killed someone and threatened all non-white, non-straight people with genocide.

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Forward the New Republic

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

Yeah, that's exactly what the clergy in Charlottesville were all about yesterday.

Fuck you and your "both sides" bullshit.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?
The article says Nazi things are illegal in Germany. Which is entirely reasonable. There are limits to free speech and must be for benefit of civil society.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I won't fault a guy for not willing to lead an army against his own home.

I will fault a guy for being willing to lead an army in defense of slavery.

And I'll fault a guy who defends that guy.

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Ohher
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# 18607

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If anybody doubts that we're still fighting the Civil War in this country, Charlottesville and this thread are evidence that It Ain't Over.

Germany fomented WWII, according to some, because the Treaty of Versaille was too harsh on Deutschland. Perhaps the "gentlemen's agreement" between Lee and Grant which ended (most of) the Union-Confederate hostilities wasn't anywhere near harsh enough.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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The person who ran into the crowd had a history of issues.

While there are probably a number of protesters who are just plain mentally ill, I feel that many are like this guy. They have had a number of failures in life and want - need - to blame those failures on someone else, or an institution that is not treating them the way they feel they ought to be treated.

This guy should be punished for his crimes.

As to the rest of them responding to fear based hate with fear based hate is not a good plan. Yes, they have views that are illogical, nasty, mean, hate filled - use your own descriptions and they will all be right. They are not going to be changed by your condemnation. They know you are "out to get them" because you must be out to get them already, or they would have better lives.

There was a news report where some mouthpiece for the hate group this guy belonged to disavowing all knowledge of him and tellingly saying they had already "safely evacuated" all of their members by the time this happened. They have spun a delusional narrative that people are after them and they believe it.

They cling to their guns and flags and hate because they are afraid.

I don't like them. In fact, they are not likeable. I will try to love them because fear based hatred has never fixed fear based hatred. Only when they do not get the hate response they want might they ever see they can have something better.

Life gives us experiences. We can take those experiences and grow in spirit. They have taken life experience and grown smaller, harder, and more fearful in spirit. It will help neither them, nor us, to take this experience and copy their example.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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Here is an account of the driver which is not behind a paywall.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?
The article says Nazi things are illegal in Germany. Which is entirely reasonable. There are limits to free speech and must be for benefit of civil society.
If the American government had the power to limit free speech, that power would be exercised by these guys and their fellow travellers. No thank you.
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anoesis
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Guys, could we stop this? The thread has moved from condemning actual neo-Nazi thugs engaging in actual violence, to mud-slinging which includes veiled suggestions that individuals such as Mere Nick are on their side. I mean, stand back, and take a moment to consider just how ridiculous that is, please. It is plain idiotic, and there is no evidence to support it on this thread.

Also, I’d like to say that I found Croesos’ original post on this thread to be an absolutely masterful piece of writing (and no, that is not sarcasm, I was genuinely impressed), but I think it’s really unfortunate that s/he chose to incorporate a single inflammatory soundbite in what was otherwise a cogent, coherent summary of the relevant background and facts of the case, by referring to Robert E Lee as a ‘noted traitor’. I’m not surprised it has generated some heat. It made me flinch, and I’m on the other side of the world, with no US ancestry, and absolutely no dog in the Confederate/Union thing. I think, on a board with a relatively erudite audience, like this one, probably just saying Robert E Lee would have been enough to identify the guy, but there was always also the option of saying ‘Confederate Leader Robert E Lee’.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:


The Nazis were also shouting "Fuck you, faggots." That's me, in case you need reminding. I, and people like me, are among those they want to destroy. And I'm not going to "ignore the bullies and they'll go away", because they never do. If they come near me and mine, or into my community, I'm going to make them wish they'd never been born.

I'm glad to have you on my side. I'm mixed race - another person that, according to their belief system, simply should not exist. These are scary times. Let's stick together.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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anoesis:

hostly furry hat on

As already indicated by RooK here, your sig now exceeds the usual agreed maximum of 4 lines. If you could amend it accordingly, you'll see fewer host-posts pointing that out.

hostly furry hat off

DT
HH


--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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anoesis
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# 14189

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Sorry. Hadn't noticed that - Rook's msg came in at 4am NZ time. Thanks for drawing my attention it. Hopefully now complying.

--------------------
The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

Not really. The states created the federal government, not the other way around. I won't fault a guy for not willing to lead an army against his own home.
[Roll Eyes] I live in a Federation. I do understand how they get created. But you're talking about a conception where the deal can be undone whenever it suits. And the Civil War was pretty much about establishing that wasn't the case.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Guys, could we stop this? The thread has moved from condemning actual neo-Nazi thugs engaging in actual violence, to mud-slinging which includes veiled suggestions that individuals such as Mere Nick are on their side. I mean, stand back, and take a moment to consider just how ridiculous that is, please. It is plain idiotic, and there is no evidence to support it on this thread.

Mere Nick is doing his very best to inflame and to stir the cauldron of a war that ended 160 years ago. If you want ridiculousness to stop, go to the source.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
All of this can be said about both sides in these types of events over the last few months. The thing is, it seems, is that the people who show up to such happenings want the mayhem. They come geared up for a fight. It is a requirement for a successful march, protest, or whatever they want to call it.

No, no it can't.

One side came with Nazi flags and an armed militia. They came with flaming torches.

Fuck your "both sides" narrative to Hell and back. One side was actually Nazis.

Yes, they are Nazis. The other riots were anarchists. I don't have anything for either.
Supporting the decision of the local elected representatives to remove a statue is "anarchy" now?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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By the way, can I encourage people to listen to this episode of one of my favourite podcasts for an excellent take on this whole removal of statues question.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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I'd just like to say I am currently laughing my arse off at the footage that shows racist scum Jason Kessler getting run out of town by the good folk of Charlottesville.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Guys, could we stop this? The thread has moved from condemning actual neo-Nazi thugs engaging in actual violence, to mud-slinging which includes veiled suggestions that individuals such as Mere Nick are on their side. I mean, stand back, and take a moment to consider just how ridiculous that is, please. It is plain idiotic, and there is no evidence to support it on this thread.

Mere Nick is doing his very best to inflame and to stir the cauldron of a war that ended 160 years ago. If you want ridiculousness to stop, go to the source.
Thanks, Mousethief, for engaging with my post, and for your measured response. (No sarcasm). Respectfully, I disagree about the source. Undoubtedly Mere Nick is getting hot under the collar, now, and saying some unreasonable things. But there was nothing inflammatory in his first post - and nothing whatever relating to the Civil War. I still feel the first stone was the use of the phrase 'noted traitor' to describe Robert E Lee. The fact that it's a correct descriptor is kind of beside the point. I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.
Ok, fair enough. [Biased] I'm kind of trying to avoid being inflammatory, having pleaded against it, but what about this one? 'That noted traitor, Jehu'?

--------------------
The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.
Especially if you had a whole city being terrorized by a bunch of adulterers with assault rifles.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

I don't think "only in America" could you imagine someone with divided loyalties at all.

Imagine a country with two ethic groups - a majority and a minority. You have lots to choose from. Take your pick - it doesn't matter.

Imagine a senior army officer or such from the minority group. Imagine that the majority government institutes harsh constraints on the minority, and sends in the army to enforce them.

Does that minority officer now face a choice between being a traitor to his people or a traitor to his country?

My problem with General Lee isn't that he chose his state over his country - it's that he chose slave-owning over freedom.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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From the Atlantic, church leaders wrestle with this Sunday's sermon.

And General Lee may have been a Southern gentleman. But that, by definition, means he was vicious to an awful lot of people.

[ 14. August 2017, 01:14: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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{With no support *whatsoever* for racism, Lee, or slavery.}

On the one point of state vs. country loyalty:

In one form or another, that controversy is probably as old as the US. AIUI, the federal gov't was meant to do just the things that individual colonies/states couldn't easily do for themselves.

The concept of state's rights is often used for bad purposes. But not always. There's lots of tension between states and the Feds, all the time.

*In and of itself*, feeling more loyalty to your state than to the US is pretty American. So is being caught in the middle.

FWIW.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17997 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
While I do not support violence, this is instructive. American tourist beaten up after Nazi salute in Dresden

Limits on free speech are noted, both the Nazi symbols and beating are illegal. Some Chinese tourists are noted to have been charged for similar.

Instructive how? What lesson do you draw from that incident?
The article says Nazi things are illegal in Germany. Which is entirely reasonable. There are limits to free speech and must be for benefit of civil society.
If the American government had the power to limit free speech, that power would be exercised by these guys and their fellow travellers. No thank you.
Utter nonsense. Free speech is but one right among many. I thought your country balanced the executive branch and legislatures (your congress and senate) with judicial. Or is that broken such that the courts can curb straying into rule of law and constitutional matters. I hear rumours of the ending of democracy down there. Is it over for your nation (I ask in jest, I hope)

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Especially if you had a whole city being terrorized by a bunch of adulterers with assault rifles.

You know what? This spoke to me. I was already thinking, maybe I should just bow out, because I'm not in the South, I'm not in the North, I'm not even in the US, it's not my cultural history, I'm not walking in these guys' shoes, and undoubtedly the whole thing is feeling a lot more immediate, more raw, for them, right now, than for me, and why should they not vent?

But yeah, groups of angry, resentful people assembling to march with assault rifles? I don't even have a frame of reference for that...

--------------------
The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I was already thinking, maybe I should just bow out, because I'm not in the South, I'm not in the North, I'm not even in the US, it's not my cultural history,

History is connected, though perhaps for some of us more than others.

quote:

I'm not walking in these guys' shoes, and undoubtedly the whole thing is feeling a lot more immediate, more raw, for them, right now, than for me, and why should they not vent?

But yeah, groups of angry, resentful people assembling to march with assault rifles? I don't even have a frame of reference for that...

Even without the weapons, these people were marching for hate. Neo-Nazis, white supremacists.; they were not just there, they are the core of those protests.
The organiser had the gall to claim removing the statues was altering history when that was the purpose of their installation.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Not really. The states created the federal government, not the other way around.

This is a bit of popular but erroneous neo-Confederate revisionism. The process that created the federal government, from the Constitutional Convention to the ratification by conventions rather than by the state governments, was designed to bypass the states, largely because the states would have refused to agree to the proposed Constitution. The Constitution itself even claims that it derives its power from the people, not the states.

quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
It's the three words right at the beginning. The original document helpfully puts them in much larger font than the rest, and bolded them for emphasis, so that it should be noticeable.

There is, on the other hand, an American Constitution that does explicitly claim the federal government is created by the states.

quote:
We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, . . .
It is not, however, the Constitution of the United States of America.

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Also, I’d like to say that I found Croesos’ original post on this thread to be an absolutely masterful piece of writing (and no, that is not sarcasm, I was genuinely impressed), but I think it’s really unfortunate that s/he chose to incorporate a single inflammatory soundbite in what was otherwise a cogent, coherent summary of the relevant background and facts of the case, by referring to Robert E Lee as a ‘noted traitor’. . . . probably just saying Robert E Lee would have been enough to identify the guy, but there was always also the option of saying ‘Confederate Leader Robert E Lee’.

The latter is simply a sugar-coated way of stating the former, and I'm not particularly in the mood to spare the delicate feelings of fans of Treason in Defense of Slavery these days.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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CBC The National (national news) this evening had me doing an online search for donald trump's racism. Not hard to find. Identity politics got him votes. Implication is trumpy is at least partly responsible. That the fascists are his people. His base. Does that play?
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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np--

Yes, mostly, though other folks are in his base, too. And yes, re partly responsible.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
CBC The National (national news) this evening had me doing an online search for donald trump's racism. Not hard to find. Identity politics got him votes. Implication is trumpy is at least partly responsible. That the fascists are his people. His base. Does that play?

Steve Bannon is in his inner circle. We don't need implication, we have the smoking gun. Trump is an alt-right supporter.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mousethief

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Sebastian Gorka is a card-carrying member of an actual Nazi Party.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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Re Lee, isn't the issue also that on the frame of reference used by the far-right, Lee can't be anything other than a traitor? If the Supreme Good is loyalty to your country, then taking up arms against your country isn't a terribly good way of demonstrating that.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
He was given the choice of who he would be a traitor against: the US or his home state.

Only in America is a sentence such as this even conceivable.

It's a bit like debating whether to respect the authority of the CEO or the branch manager.

I don't think "only in America" could you imagine someone with divided loyalties at all.

Imagine a country with two ethic groups - a majority and a minority. You have lots to choose from. Take your pick - it doesn't matter.

Imagine a senior army officer or such from the minority group. Imagine that the majority government institutes harsh constraints on the minority, and sends in the army to enforce them.

Does that minority officer now face a choice between being a traitor to his people or a traitor to his country?

My problem with General Lee isn't that he chose his state over his country - it's that he chose slave-owning over freedom.

Your comparison is not between legal bodies politic, one of which is made subservient to the other. Membership of a minority ethnic group is not based on swearing allegiance or promising to obey its laws.

Sure, people have plenty of divided loyalties. But my comment was directed at the notion that you could have divided loyalty between legal jurisdictions.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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ETA:
Ricardus--

(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

[ 14. August 2017, 05:21: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

<takes notes on empathy as practiced here by GK>

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I mean, what kind of response would I expect, if, in a discussion, I made reference to 'noted adulterer, John F Kennedy'?

Agreement? I don't think this is a controversial statement because no one denies it.
Actually, a lot of Americans either love or hate JFK, plus the whole "Camelot" golden age mythology, plus unresolved feelings and questions about the assassination, etc., etc. So, unless the readers didn't know about JFK, there'd likely be *some* kind of a reaction.

[ 14. August 2017, 06:28: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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Again, I know this is a tangent, but so much this on the issue of tone that facilitates and invites discussion.

[ 14. August 2017, 07:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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[Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's how Dr. King defeated it wasn't it? And Mohandas K. Ghandi.

I suspect that neither of those great men really did defeat nazism. I suspect that what they did - and this is a phenomenal achievement in itself - was to make it unfashionable and unsayable among the political and middle classes. They made it so that no respectable person could be a nazi, at least not out loud.

Unfortunately, the world isn't full of "respectable" people, and more to the point we now know that much of "respectability" is a wretched hypocrisy that allows base instincts to grow under the surface. And then there are those who simply don't share those middle-class mores, whose resentment and dislike of the unlike were barely touched by King's and Gandhi's efforts and goodness. Perhaps our middle-class cocoons protected us from their sneers for a few decades, though I've been called a fucking queer and told I should burn by better men - and women - than any of the unevolved vermin who gathered in Charlottesville with their cirtronella torches.

King, Gandhi and their like were builders of civilisation. But the thin veneer we call civilisation has never made nazism go away. It never will

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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simontoad
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# 18096

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I just want to post my love and support for my American shipmates in the light of this crime and terrorist attack. I pray that somehow, Americans can retreat from political violence as a way of solving their differences.

[Votive]

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Human

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I just want to post my love and support for my American shipmates in the light of this crime and terrorist attack. I pray that somehow, Americans can retreat from political violence as a way of solving their differences.

[Votive]

I absolutely agree with the love and support and the longing for peace.

But I do not recognise that nazism is a valid political position that societies should be expected to tolerate. Does this make me intolerant?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's how Dr. King defeated it wasn't it? And Mohandas K. Ghandi.

I suspect that neither of those great men really did defeat nazism. I suspect that what they did - and this is a phenomenal achievement in itself - was to make it unfashionable and unsayable among the political and middle classes. They made it so that no respectable person could be a nazi, at least not out loud.

Unfortunately, the world isn't full of "respectable" people, and more to the point we now know that much of "respectability" is a wretched hypocrisy that allows base instincts to grow under the surface. And then there are those who simply don't share those middle-class mores, whose resentment and dislike of the unlike were barely touched by King's and Gandhi's efforts and goodness. Perhaps our middle-class cocoons protected us from their sneers for a few decades, though I've been called a fucking queer and told I should burn by better men - and women - than any of the unevolved vermin who gathered in Charlottesville with their cirtronella torches.

King, Gandhi and their like were builders of civilisation. But the thin veneer we call civilisation has never made nazism go away. It never will

Well said. Edmund Burke comes to mind. I'm all for civil disobedience under passive resistance to confront evil on our streets. The time has not come to physically provoke, attack or counter-attack. That is not loving our enemies.

However I FULLY endorse self defense if support is not forthcoming, and fully understand insurrection, reactive violence on a larger scale.

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Love wins

Posts: 16905 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ETA:
Ricardus--

(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

Two notes: The rally under discussion was not a group of misguided southerners pining for a mythological cause. It was white supremacists using the statue to further their own cause.
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth. This isn't news. The response to the 2013 church shootings in this very same city shows that Southerners do understand this issue.
You are a good person for thinking kindly, but I think it is misguided in this case.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth.

I'll bet that not all of the alt-right demonstrators knew that, though.

"Noted traitor" may be how all reasonable people see Lee, but it's not very helpful in understanding their mindset.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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lilBuddha
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Clarifying addendum: In the wake of the 2013 Charlottesville shootings of black parishioners in a church by a white supremacist, many southern states began removing confederate flags from public buildings. This was strongly supported by many, though not all, Southerners. The understanding is there.
The people who hanging onto the "Lost Cause" myth of the noble south are choosing to do so. Not all of them are racist or slavery apologists, but all of them have to ignore both of those things to hold that myth.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16963 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



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