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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

Oh please. [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] My being sensible about what goes into a counter-protest against well-armed fit young men is a problem for you?

The last time neo-Nazis rallied in Los Angeles, counter-protesters beat the shit out of a few of them and chased the rest away. I don't think my assistance was required.

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

And if they'd once turned around and come at us, I'd have folded my glasses into my pocket and I'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with my comrades - black, white, Asian, young, old, anarchists, communists, socialists, any one of goodwill.

Were they armed? Were you? This is America, dude -- we're well past mere fists, bottles, and sticks. The neo-Nazis in Charlottesville came with shields and clubs, and the governor said in an interview that the ones not openly carrying firearms had them concealed. The antifa contingent came armed with sticks and shields. Both these groups had chemicals they sprayed at each other. A militia group showed up and interposed themselves between these two groups; the militia were armed to the teeth. And of course there were the cops, also armed, though not nearly as well as the neo-Nazis, who had better riot gear. It's a fucking miracle no shots were fired.

This is not to say that unarmed people should not go to potentially violent protests. 30 University of Virginia students faced 250 neo-Nazis on campus Friday night. I heard a couple of them interviewed on Pod Save the People (Aug. 14 episode) and was impressed by how they handled themselves.

[ 15. August 2017, 06:17: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I think that's why the terrorist chose a car as his weapon of choice. If he'd used his firearm he'd have been shot. The car had the element of surprise and protection for him.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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Or he might simply have been frustrated that the rally didn't actually ever happen -- it was declared an unlawful assembly before it even got underway.
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

? As they did at Selma. Without attacking evil with violence. Were they wrong? Despite winning? Without killing anyone? Did they not show a better way?
And if white Christians had joined en masse with our black brothers and sisters, would Selma have even been necessary?

No. No it wouldn't.

Absolutely. The failure is always ours. Always.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
A militia group showed up and interposed themselves between these two groups; the militia were armed to the teeth (...) And of course there were the cops, also armed, though not nearly as well as the neo-Nazis, who had better riot gear. It's a fucking miracle no shots were fired.

Wait, what?

Are you saying there was an alt-right group that was better-armed than the torch-wielding mob, the counter-protestors, and the police, that kept the two sides apart, managed to prevent the torch-wielders from opening fire, and had the discipline to refrain from opening fire themselves when countered?

Becuase if that's the case, the threat to democracy is with whoever's commanding those guys.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Had they achieved it, I'd have had to do more hard thinking about what I would do; previous discussions on the Ship would have informed my decision.

It's not directly comparable to my mind.

For one, the FN is an elected party, not an unelected rabble. For another, it expresses its nastiness in a much subtler manner and is a whole lot savvier about wrong-footing hotheaded opposition.

Either way, I wouldn't be taking up bottles, stones, or fists.

As it is they seem to be imploding nicely of their own accord. For now.

Surely, if there's one thing we learn from Trump - it's that waiting till *after* they have control of the presidency is well fucking late. Protest doesn't have to be violent.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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The torch-wielding mob was at UVA the night before - preview of coming attractions.

According to The Washington Post:
quote:
In the midst of the two groups, another force arrived. Dressed in full camouflage and outfitted with semiautomatic rifles and pistols, three dozen members of a self-styled militia walked onto the sidewalk. Christian Yingling, who described himself as the commander of the unit, said they were there to keep the peace. He said members of the Charlottesville Police Department welcomed their presence. Although Virginia is an open-carry state, the presence of the militia was unnerving to law enforcement officials on the scene.

“The militia showed up with long rifles, and we were concerned to have that in the mix,” said Virginia Secretary of Public Safety and Homeland Security Brian Moran, who worried that the rallygoers and counterprotesters would mistake the militia for National Guard forces. “They seemed like they weren’t there to cause trouble, but it was a concern to have rifles in that kind of environment.”

This militia did not in fact keep the neo-Nazis and the counter-protesters separate. The neo-Nazis entered the park from all sides instead of sticking to their apparently agreed-upon plan of coming in at once entrance, and they were met by counter-protesters. There were brawls all over the park.

The militia were there, they claim (the Post again), to protect the First Amendment rights of people on both sides of the confrontation. They're not alt-right. They're a whole other kind of nut, the anti-government kind.

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully. What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge. (It was between 7am and 8am, sorry cant do better than that on a phone commuting).

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Surely, if there's one thing we learn from Trump - it's that waiting till *after* they have control of the presidency is well fucking late.

In private (but in real life) I counter FN rhetoric on an almost daily basis and agree the threat has not gone away.

As someone who is a public face of a faith community and with prison security clearance, I have to choose my public real-life battles more carefully. Those positions come with obligations and limitations.

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Protest doesn't have to be violent.

What I took exception to here, originally, was the insinuation that protest had to be violent and that all alternatives were invalid.

I'm also challenging those who are offering advice from behind thier monitors (and more specifically, suggesting other posters were more cowardly than honest) without stating their credentials for actual heads-above-the-parapet action (mousethief, I wish you a speedy recovery, but my question was about your past record not your present abilities).

Finally, not only does protest not have to be violent, but there are valid, diverse forms of resistance of which protest is one; it is impossible to be committed to engaging in all of them at once.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... I had my gall bladder removed three days ago ....

Did you get to keep it? Could it be made into some kind of weapon?

(PS Hope you make a full and swift recovery)

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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MaryLouise
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# 18697

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We've had our share of protest marches in recent years in South Africa, and the #RhodesMustFall protests on campuses were extremely violent for both staff and students. Police brutality here is a major issue.

Most of us first learned to cope with tear gas and stun grenades years ago but a new generation are busy discovering how to carry wet tissues and hankies for eye inflammation, to wear spectacles and not contact lenses, how to apply tourniquets, how to check for neck or head injuries after a police charge with batons, how to help someone hit by rubber bullets, how to document cases of lethal force in order to lay charges. Tactical lessons have to be learned about dealing with police 'kettling', not getting driven up against barbed wire, how to shield yourself from armoured vehicles with water cannons.

Because I'm older, myopic and unfit, I'm more of a liability as a protestor, and if there is a high risk of violence from armed groups or police, it makes more sense to keep back and document what is happening or help those injured by calling for ambulances and paramedics. In the event that protestors begin throwing bricks or setting vehicles or buildings alight, children need to be protected and taken out of danger (this is really important in service delivery protests in poorer communities where children often run to the front of the march).

But if people wanting to defend democracy don't get out in numbers on those streets, the violence escalates and goes unchecked. Activists in South Africa have learned a great deal about how to mobilise from watching the mass protests in Brazil, Egypt and Turkey. Those in relatively safe Western countries don't need to reinvent the wheel. Because South Africa will have countrywide elections in 2019, observers have been watching the Kenyan elections closely to see what can be done to making voting safer.

Student protests turn violent

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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{H/As--Would someone please remove my messy, partial post a couple of posts up ? I'm having connection problems, and that went through without my knowing.

Many thanks!}

(I could do, but I've enough going on with this train-wreck of a thread already. It's not the worst I've seen, and at least your only fault is bad quoting. DT)

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Improbable Botany

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Martin60
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# 368

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Anyone else as on point as Eutychus?

By a country mile?

MaryLouise probably.

[ 15. August 2017, 09:26: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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MaryLouise
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# 18697

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Just to add that the most powerful image for me was the line of interfaith clergy standing unarmed in front of the militia armed with assault rifles. That is what presence can offer. Image posted by Kate Bishop Shaner

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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Just to add that the most powerful image for me was the line of interfaith clergy standing unarmed in front of the militia armed with assault rifles. That is what presence can offer. Image posted by Kate Bishop Shaner

This.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Just to add that the most powerful image for me was the line of interfaith clergy standing unarmed in front of the militia armed with assault rifles. That is what presence can offer. Image posted by Kate Bishop Shaner

This.
That.
quote:
Dr. @CornelWest says anti-fascist and anarchist protesters protected clergy from white nationalists Friday night: "They saved our lives"


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Improbable Botany

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
That.

This (last paragraph).

This discussion could get monosyllabic.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

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Improbable Botany

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Gee D
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# 13815

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How apt is it that yesterday we remembered Jonathan Myrick Daniels, shot taking a bullet intended for a young black girl.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

Nope, disagree (I was thinking about this as I did the washing-up).

If I were to go to the front line on something like that, as a faith representative, I wouldn't go with the expectation of protagonists rushing to protect me.

I wouldn't expect or be counting on anyone to save my life.

If I'd weighed my convictions, diverse responsibilities (including family responsibilities), and the risks, and decided to go, I'd be literally putting my life on the line for my convictions and doing so as a considered decision*.

As best as I know myself, if I'd been in Charlottesville I'd very probably have done what that clergy did. Whether I'd make it out the other side alive or not would be irrelevant to me.

==
*Which is why in all things activism-related I hold to the importance of giving people space to reach such a decision even when the stakes aren't so high.

[ 15. August 2017, 11:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Eutychus
From the edge
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ETA real-life example: when I wander around my prison I don't take a personal alarm. This is a considered decision by me and other chaplaincy staff of all faiths. Every day in jail I open cell doors with the key in my hand, where I have no idea what the guy on the other side might do, and go in (unless of course I think there is immediate danger! I don't do this indiscriminately).

This decision is a carefully thought-out one (irrelevant to the discussion here) and it is one I have under review at this time. I don't take these things lightly. Without unduly exaggerating the risks I face (which I deem low) I think I can be fairly said to put my life at risk to some extent in following my convictions.

[ 15. August 2017, 11:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is a bit of popular but erroneous neo-Confederate revisionism. The process that created the federal government, from the Constitutional Convention to the ratification by conventions rather than by the state governments, was designed to bypass the states, largely because the states would have refused to agree to the proposed Constitution.

The delegates to the convention were sent by the states, the higher the state's population, the more delegates a state would send.

On September 28, 1787 the Congress agreed to send the Constitution to the states for debate and ratification. Nine of the 13 needed to ratify the constitution.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Gamaliel
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I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

It would have been great if the UK immediately thought like this about us when it received the Declaration of Independence, signed by 56 traitors.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[QB] On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully.

That part is correct.

quote:
What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge.
Dude . . .

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

It would have been great if the UK immediately thought like this about us when it received the Declaration of Independence, signed by 56 traitors.
Agreed.

There were certainly those in Parliament who would have been happy to do so.

Shame the Colonists went on to stock-pile illegal weaponry, including cannon and to act like they had a God-given right to act like complete hypocrites ...

It takes two to tango.

Yes, it would have saved a lot of hassle and a lot of lives - more on your side than on ours - had Parliament and the King acceded to the Colonists' not unreasonable demands for greater devolution and ultimate independence ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Mere Nick
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It appears the precipitating event, or at least the excuse, for the Charlottesville unpleasantness was the city council's decision to sell a piece of property that the town owns. So, it was a violent protest against property rights.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Thought a scriptural response is due. Haven't decided if the dog or pig is more representative.

2 Peter 2:22(b)
"The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

Nope. Nothing should have stopped their non-violent protest. And why would they have been killed?

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Because fascists?

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Improbable Botany

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Thought a scriptural response is due. Haven't decided if the dog or pig is more representative.

2 Peter 2:22(b)
"The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Neither.

Dogs like the taste of vomit because it's the first food they eat. Their mum regurgitates for them.

Raw fed dogs often eat-vomit-eat again to aid the digestion of bone.

Peter simply didn't understand dogs.

[Razz]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
[QB] On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully.

That part is correct.

quote:
What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge.
Dude . . .

The neo-Nazis do have the right to free speech and peaceful demonstration. But Bannon knows as well as I do that you don't take weapons if your intention is purely peaceful. Antifa shows up to these things armed because they know the neo-Nazis will be armed.

And the reason for the protest in Charlottesville is that the city council voted to remove the statue of Robert E. Lee from the park.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Fine. The non-violent clergy protest was only possible because of those people who stood between them and the fascists - those the clergy acknowledge 'saved their lives'.

Nope. Nothing should have stopped their non-violent protest. And why would they have been killed?
Have you seen the pictures? The video? Because there were hundreds of people there with efficient deadly weapons!
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Martin60
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None of which were used. Wow, I wish the UK was as free as the US.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16237 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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And this ties the incident into the perpetual American problem of guns. Virginia is an open-carry state; if you have the license you can carry a gun almost anywhere. (They were even going to allow guns in churches! Bet that would sharpen up the sermons of a Sunday.)

Look at the pictures. Those people were carrying military-grade armaments -- assault rifles. The local police (starved of funding) do not have that kind of firepower. It makes keeping the peace much more dangerous and difficult.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

But that'd be naughty.

They've got good music and good food though.

At least we don't crown their offspring.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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No, we elect them.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Look at the pictures. Those people were carrying military-grade armaments -- assault rifles. The local police (starved of funding) do not have that kind of firepower. It makes keeping the peace much more dangerous and difficult.

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None of which were used.

This time. Bringing guns served to escalate tensions. And, IMO, highlights their cowardice.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The neo-Nazis do have the right to free speech and peaceful demonstration. But Bannon knows as well as I do that you don't take weapons if your intention is purely peaceful. Antifa shows up to these things armed because they know the neo-Nazis will be armed.

They both showed up armed because they knew both sides would show up armed. If there had not been a brawl both sides would have gone home disappointed.

quote:
And the reason for the protest in Charlottesville is that the city council voted to remove the statue of Robert E. Lee from the park.
Right. I posted on that earlier. The city wants to sell the statue. I assume the statue is city property, then. If I want to sell something and get it off my property, how dare someone say I can't? It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners. A civil war graveyard or battlefield would seem an appropriate place.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Without unduly exaggerating the risks I face (which I deem low) I think I can be fairly said to put my life at risk to some extent in following my convictions.

Ah, THAT's what gives you the right to judge everybody else on this thread! I was wondering!

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm tempted to say something Hellish about the Southern States being allowed to hive off independently so they can all shag their cousins, believe the earth to be flat, that the world is 6,000 years old and ...

What a fucking pity we didn't let them go.

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
On Radio 4's Today programme this morning there was a discussion with someone who worked with Steve Bannon on his publication. He said that the Far Right guys were entitled to free speech in the USA and to demonstrate peacefully. What is causing the violence is antifa arriving armed too, and intending to challenge.

I've heard arguments like this by brothers, involving who hit whom back first. It was all peaceful until HE picked up a stick. The fact that I was threatening him with a stick doesn't matter.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It appears the precipitating event, or at least the excuse, for the Charlottesville unpleasantness was the city council's decision to sell a piece of property that the town owns. So, it was a violent protest against property rights.

A beauyoooootiful example of the composition fallacy.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners.

No it wouldn't. That statue was erected in order to anchor the lie that the Civil War was not first and foremost about slavery. Placing it somewhere else would Merely continue that lie.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Were they armed? Were you? This is America, dude -- we're well past mere fists, bottles, and sticks. The neo-Nazis in Charlottesville came with shields and clubs, and the governor said in an interview that the ones not openly carrying firearms had them concealed. The antifa contingent came armed with sticks and shields. Both these groups had chemicals they sprayed at each other. A militia group showed up and interposed themselves between these two groups; the militia were armed to the teeth. And of course there were the cops, also armed, though not nearly as well as the neo-Nazis, who had better riot gear. It's a fucking miracle no shots were fired.

The cops appear to have not been outgunned. They even had an armored vehicle. not outgunned

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners.

No it wouldn't. That statue was erected in order to anchor the lie that the Civil War was not first and foremost about slavery. Placing it somewhere else would Merely continue that lie.
Why don't you buy it from the owners and melt it down, then?

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It seems a better idea would be for the protesters to purchase the statue and put it where it is welcome by the property owners.

No it wouldn't. That statue was erected in order to anchor the lie that the Civil War was not first and foremost about slavery. Placing it somewhere else would Merely continue that lie.
Why don't you buy it from the owners and melt it down, then?
The city acknowledging the nature of the statue and removing it is more fitting.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, THAT's what gives you the right to judge everybody else on this thread! I was wondering!

I'm not judging anybody. But I think that when you snarkily suggest Boogie would have turned tail and fled at Selma Bridge, you deserve to be asked for your credentials.

And when I've been challenged on my personal experience, as I was, I think it's reasonable to provide some.

Some people here, not all of whom I agree with, are clearly speaking from a place of experience with regard to on the ground action and that adds weight to what they say in that respect as far as I'm concerned; for others it's by no means clear.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, THAT's what gives you the right to judge everybody else on this thread! I was wondering!

I'm not judging anybody. But I think that when you snarkily suggest Boogie would have turned tail and fled at Selma Bridge, you deserve to be asked for your credentials.
.

I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Look at the pictures. Those people were carrying military-grade armaments -- assault rifles. The local police (starved of funding) do not have that kind of firepower. It makes keeping the peace much more dangerous and difficult.

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
None of which were used.

This time. Bringing guns served to escalate tensions. And, IMO, highlights their cowardice.

Cowardice? It looks like abusing an insane freedom, leveraging power unenlightenedly out of some inchoate fear. It's certainly not as courageous as going unarmed and unprepared to do violence.

--------------------
Love wins

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Ozymandias The Great now declares that both sides are to blame for the violence, according to the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

Is it just me, or do others find his reactions confusing and/or conflicting?

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

Boogie was honest enough to admit her fears.

You gratuitously put her on the line by challenging her as to whether she would have stayed on the bridge at Selma.

The implication being that she ought to be able to overcome her fears and stay.

So I would like to know what entitles you to put her on the line like that.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I see. It's that you are incapable of reading for content. All is forgiven.

Boogie was honest enough to admit her fears.

You gratuitously put her on the line by challenging her as to whether she would have stayed on the bridge at Selma.

The implication being that she ought to be able to overcome her fears and stay.

So I would like to know what entitles you to put her on the line like that.

I understand the ship a little better. It's okay to tell someone to die screaming, but not to ask if they would stand against the water cannons on the bridge at Selma. Really I had thought better of the ship than this. Today has been an awakening.

--------------------
God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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