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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Charlottesville
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth.
I'll bet that not all of the alt-right demonstrators knew that, though.
"Noted traitor" may be how all reasonable people see Lee, but it's not very helpful in understanding their mindset.
To be accurate, most probably don't care. They were there to promote white supremacy. Go ahead and think I am unreasonable for not empathising with that if you wish.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
By the way, Mike Godwin, originator of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]Godwin's Law[/url], is ok with everyone calling the white supremacists who met in Charlottesville Nazis - link. It's come to this.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be accurate, most probably don't care. They were there to promote white supremacy. Go ahead and think I am unreasonable for not empathising with that if you wish.
No, you're not unreasonable, all the more so in that this is Hell.
But, if I may continue to hijack this thread for a minute, I think one of the major sources of conflict between you and I is the message I get from you that nobody on the other side of a conflict could, theoretically, ever be won over, and that how they got there is never worth thinking about.
I spend a lot of time with people convicted of offences who acted together with one or more others. There is usually a ringleader (often not the obvious person) and the majority of participants are in my view far less evil than that person. Given the right opportunities I believe these people could have turned out differently and could still be changed for the better.
I get that you've borne the brunt of evil people. So, in my own ways, have I. But my heart is for going after the others, and I'm willing to try and think myself into their worlds to that end.
Tangent over. Ire over Charlottesville, which is certainly deserved, may now resume.
[ 14. August 2017, 09:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
the message I get from you that nobody on the other side of a conflict could, theoretically, ever be won over, and that how they got there is never worth thinking about.
You get the wrong message. There are people who can be won over. The difference between us is in how many backs must serve as a bridge in the attempt.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Well I really buggered that up, didn't I?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You get the wrong message. There are people who can be won over. The difference between us is in how many backs must serve as a bridge in the attempt.
That's helpful in understanding where you're coming from; thank you.
Now Adeodatus, do have another go. Repair with gold, perhaps? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 14. August 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
In my experience, which admittedly is limited, people who are racist because they hold misconceptions and wrong ideas about black people/Jews/etc can be, with time and patience, persuaded to change their views. I'm also noting that it's not up to black or Jewish people to facilitate that change.
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Well I really buggered that up, didn't I?
I looked at it, and thought, "Nah, let it stand as a monument for folly."
One out of two wasn't bad. Wasn't good either...
[ 14. August 2017, 09:42: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.
Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Now Adeodatus, do have another go. Repair with gold, perhaps?
Your smirk is almost audible. Watch out for those wrinkles... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Mike Godwin, originator of Godwin's Law, is ok with everyone calling the white supremacists who met in Charlottesville Nazis - link. It's come to this.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.
Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.
No, I don't think so. There's a line they crossed. They want to wallow in their sin, for whatever their motivation for that. No one forced them to travel to Charlottesville, made them display fascist symbols and chant Nazi slogans.
At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?
Because I'm going for "marching in uniform carrying swastikas". Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.
Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.
It doesn't matter. He committed the most evil deed. Our actions define us as well as our hearts.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?
Oh, I think we all deserve the consequences of our actions, and there is no doubt that the actual action of wilfully taking a life, say, deserves serious punishment in line with the circumstances.
But I don't think there's a straight-line correlation between the terribleness of specific acts and the chances of somebody being won over. Witness the apostle Paul.
(Thinking about it, I guess it's one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty).
[ 14. August 2017, 10:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.
Oh, yes, obviously that's who he was referring to. Not, say, Antifa, who brought their own weapons, piss baloons, guns, etc. to Charlottesville.
(for one example covered in MSM, check 4/14)
There are many arguments that can be made about relative power and influence etc. when it comes to the "both sides bullshit" but when Antifa is attacking reporters at anti-white supremacy rallies (as happened again last night) asking people not to believe their own lying eyes while seemingly willfully misrepresenting their statements is likely to drive people away from your team.
But there's a free speech rally scheduled in Boston for the 19th (which was planned long before this weekend's disaster) and from what I hear both sides are preparing for serious violence and there's talk of people planning more rallies in other cities on the same date... so what the hell, why don't we all kick back, point fingers, and cast blame while we wait for Civil War 2.0 to kick off.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.
Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.
No, I don't think so. There's a line they crossed. They want to wallow in their sin, for whatever their motivation for that. No one forced them to travel to Charlottesville, made them display fascist symbols and chant Nazi slogans.
At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?
Because I'm going for "marching in uniform carrying swastikas". Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.
It's what JWHD.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think taking these people on while suffering from a Messiah complex is going to help.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Witness the apostle Paul.
You do realise that the phrase 'Damascene conversion' involves actual divine intervention, right?
That's okay. God can show up in Richard Spencer's jail cell or by his hospital bed.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Meanwhile, back at the Charlottesville battlefield ...
The Daily Stormer, a white supremacist website, says the following about President Trump's comments on the demonstration:
quote:
He didn't attack us. Refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.
Source: NY Times editorial, "The Hate He Dares Not Speak Of." 8/14/17. This mentions that the White House issued an unsigned [n.b] statement yesterday "saying that the president's words on Saturday 'of course' included "white supremacists, KKK, Neo-Nazi and all extremist groups."
Of course.
[ 14. August 2017, 12:02: Message edited by: roybart ]
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In my online foray last eve, I came across the Twitter feed "@yesyoureracist" which puts up pictures of people like the Charlotteville bigots, identifies them, sends the info around with aims at public shaming, getting them fired from their jobs. Notwithstanding the possibility of creating a Horst Wessel, they have baked their cake and must lie in it.
[-
On a completely different part of this thread, Gandhi's relationship with the Nazis is not admirable.
-]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I spend a lot of time with people convicted of offences who acted together with one or more others. There is usually a ringleader (often not the obvious person) and the majority of participants are in my view far less evil than that person.
One of the most frustrating things when discussing fascists (besides the fact that it's 2017 and we're still dealing with fascists!) is the degree to which "I was only following orders" is still considered a valid mitigating excuse by some folks. You'd think a certain degree of infamy would have adhered to that justification so people would be reluctant, or even ashamed, to trot it out, especially in the context of fascism, but apparently not.
"Not as evil as the guy giving the orders" is not an exoneration and having to resort to that kind of excuse making should be considered a flashing red warning light.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
No prophet's, it's ironic that you mention "shaming." What follows is from the Daily Stormer. I recommend that everyone have a look at this to learn something about the under-belly of American society, not so "under-belly" nowadays. Read especially the depiction of the counter-protestor who was rammed and killed during the riots. Look for the headline "Heather Heyer: Woman Killed in Road Rage Incident was a Fat, Childless 32-Year-Old Slut." Be prepared to be sickened/frightened/enraged.
By the way the approved alt-right label for these events is the "Battle of Charlottesville." Read the "Firsthand Account" The language of innocent, abused patriotism coexists on Daily Stormer with gutter vituperation, as rhetoric always does when it comes from the far-right.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Witness the apostle Paul.
You do realise that the phrase 'Damascene conversion' involves actual divine intervention, right?
That's okay. God can show up in Richard Spencer's jail cell or by his hospital bed.
It can happen. Neither of these two stories explicitly refer to Jesus, but there's a lot of amazing grace there.
Arno Michaelis
TJ Leyden
(I'd recommend the whole book of Forgiveness Project stories; some are very hard to read, but worth it)
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
No prophet's, it's ironic that you mention "shaming." What follows is from the Daily Stormer. I recommend that everyone have a look at this to learn something about the under-belly of American society, not so "under-belly" nowadays. Read especially the depiction of the counter-protestor who was rammed and killed during the riots. Look for the headline "Heather Heyer: Woman Killed in Road Rage Incident was a Fat, Childless 32-Year-Old Slut." Be prepared to be sickened/frightened/enraged.
By the way the approved alt-right label for these events is the "Battle of Charlottesville." Read the "Firsthand Account" The language of innocent, abused patriotism coexists on Daily Stormer with gutter vituperation, as rhetoric always does when it comes from the far-right.
Good heavens. This is the sort of thing my grandmother talked of before the family left Berlin in 1936.
There is an absurd normalization of both the general identity and racialist politics, and a normalization of the president. Has it come time that there must be disrespect of the office of the president because of who holds the office? Is it collusion with the racialists to continue to respect the office notwithstanding the man? Is there a moral imperative to become honest about the defects and harmful intent of the man and to label them and the man clearly?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It can happen.
I'm not denying it can happen. But in both those cases, the recognition of the need for change has come from within.
(/tangent One of the characters in my next-published book is a member of the Aryan Brotherhood who 'got religion'.)
Someone can't be reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And frankly, I'm not going to suggest a quiet chat over a cup of tea while several hundred of them are marching down the street with Nazi flags. I don't think they're in the mood to listen.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag
There is an absurd normalization of both the general identity and racialist politics, and a normalization of the president. Has it come time that there must be disrespect of the office of the president because of who holds the office? Is it collusion with the racialists to continue to respect the office notwithstanding the man? Is there a moral imperative to become honest about the defects and harmful intent of the man and to label them and the man clearly? [/QB]
A friend of a friend notes:
'Should a government official take sides in this situation, it would lay the onus on that official to crack down on the side condemned. However, if the ultimate goal is to increase national violence to the point where a declaration of martial law and suspension of all our Constitutional rights can be persuasively offered, then not taking sides is the perfect position.'
The headline of this (free) opinion piece says it all. This is the bleakest moment in America in living memory.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.
Oh, yes, obviously that's who he was referring to. Not, say, Antifa, who brought their own weapons, piss baloons, guns, etc. to Charlottesville.
(for one example covered in MSM, check 4/14)
There are many arguments that can be made about relative power and influence etc. when it comes to the "both sides bullshit" but when Antifa is attacking reporters at anti-white supremacy rallies (as happened again last night) asking people not to believe their own lying eyes while seemingly willfully misrepresenting their statements is likely to drive people away from your team.
But there's a free speech rally scheduled in Boston for the 19th (which was planned long before this weekend's disaster) and from what I hear both sides are preparing for serious violence and there's talk of people planning more rallies in other cities on the same date... so what the hell, why don't we all kick back, point fingers, and cast blame while we wait for Civil War 2.0 to kick off.
Oh those poor dear Nazis! I know your heart aches for them, and people feel the need to be so beastly to them. All they wanted was a little bit of Poland, a little bit of France.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is the bleakest moment in America in living memory.
Maybe if you're 10 years old... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 14. August 2017, 15:19: Message edited by: romanlion ]
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Deconstructing the Farcebook link, it appears you may zap your way here for your toileting.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Rephrasing Hannah Arendt, "Gleichschaltung" is a German word which she defined as "falling into line, coordinating, accommodating as if business, governance and social relations is proceeding as usual, and all will be fine".
The suggestion that illegal immigration is the cause of the economic struggles of working-class whites is an American meme and provides the false truth which makes the racialism acceptable: Muslims and Mexicans are stabbing Americans in the back.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
This WW2 anti-nazi propaganda film by the US War Department seems to be shared widely on social media at the moment, I am told: 'Don't be a sucker'; free download in better quality from the internet archive.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
the degree to which "I was only following orders" is still considered a valid mitigating excuse by some folks.
I'm tempted to refer to Milgram's experiment for the second time in as many days but last time didn't go down well...
For one thing, following orders is not the same as peer pressure or manipulation. For another, "mitigation" is not the same as "excuse" or "exonerate".
I frequently get mad at the criminal justice system for not apportioning blame as I myself would in a given situation, but I'm glad that at least some attempt is made to determine degrees of responsibility and sanction accordingly, rather than a one-size-fits-all solution.
I'm in no doubt as to which side is responsible for provoking this confrontation and that they're on the wrong side of history (well at least the official version), but I strongly believe that to treat that side as though it was a unilateral equally evil bloc is to serve its purpose rather than combat it effectively in the long term.
As I also believe that the side "in the right", other things being equal, should not be dealt with any more indulgently.
Assault with an offensive weapon in identical circumstances by a protestor on either side should receive the same tariff. If the protestor on one side gets an additional sentence for being part of a terrorist organisation or some such, that's another matter.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.
At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?
I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.
As far as I'm concerned, I really can't see myself taking up sticks, stones, or bottles against a mob of any kind.
You can count me in with those leaders of different faiths facing them off with "this little light of mine" mentioned earlier.
Or perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
I'm not expecting you or your conscience to join me, or judging you if you don't, but that's definitely where I'd be.
[ 14. August 2017, 18:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
So have you been counter protesting the French National Front ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.
That'll warm the cockles of my heart, just before they're warmed by the fires of the crematorium.
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
No, but I've put myself in the public gaze, in the media, linking hands with leaders of other faiths at a high-profile event in my city to take a stand against so-called Islamic terrorism.
If the far right were to get up to the cultural equivalent of Charlottesville where I am then I'd do so with no hesitation, but only because I've thought hard about it first.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089
A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Not American, but
a) Too late.
b) I bet it was first and foremost to try and stop any more of this happening.
[ 14. August 2017, 18:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089
A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?
IJ
My immediate reaction is that Trump is like the six year old Johnny, who after hitting Suzie on the arm, belatedly and reluctantly says "Sorry" after his mother tells him to "say Sorry."
The difference might be that Johnny will grow up and figure out that that was the right thing to do and that hitting Suzie was wrong.
Trump won't.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, I rather got that impression, too.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.
Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.
To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.
July 1944? Millions were already dead by then.
I asked the question. You answered. You would do nothing of any substance. You wouldn't have my back. You would wring your hands as the trucks pull out and say (quietly) how terrible it all was. Perhaps a bit of Niemoller would be more appropriate here, since I am literally one, two and three on that list.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089
A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?
IJ
They are not his words, he was reading every careful word.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.
At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?
I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.
It was done. It didn't work.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.
Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.
To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.
Not Jesus.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.
At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?
I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.
It was done. It didn't work.
It did here.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
(Cross-posted - I was commenting on Boogie's post).
I think I see what Martin is saying, so WWJD?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.
As far as I'm concerned, I really can't see myself taking up sticks, stones, or bottles against a mob of any kind.
You can count me in with those leaders of different faiths facing them off with "this little light of mine" mentioned earlier.
Or perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
I'm not expecting you or your conscience to join me, or judging you if you don't, but that's definitely where I'd be.
I hope I'd have the courage to. Bonhoeffer is not an appropriate example tho'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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