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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth.

I'll bet that not all of the alt-right demonstrators knew that, though.

"Noted traitor" may be how all reasonable people see Lee, but it's not very helpful in understanding their mindset.

To be accurate, most probably don't care. They were there to promote white supremacy. Go ahead and think I am unreasonable for not empathising with that if you wish.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Adeodatus
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By the way, Mike Godwin, originator of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law]Godwin's Law[/url], is ok with everyone calling the white supremacists who met in Charlottesville Nazis - link. It's come to this.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To be accurate, most probably don't care. They were there to promote white supremacy. Go ahead and think I am unreasonable for not empathising with that if you wish.

No, you're not unreasonable, all the more so in that this is Hell.

But, if I may continue to hijack this thread for a minute, I think one of the major sources of conflict between you and I is the message I get from you that nobody on the other side of a conflict could, theoretically, ever be won over, and that how they got there is never worth thinking about.

I spend a lot of time with people convicted of offences who acted together with one or more others. There is usually a ringleader (often not the obvious person) and the majority of participants are in my view far less evil than that person. Given the right opportunities I believe these people could have turned out differently and could still be changed for the better.

I get that you've borne the brunt of evil people. So, in my own ways, have I. But my heart is for going after the others, and I'm willing to try and think myself into their worlds to that end.

Tangent over. Ire over Charlottesville, which is certainly deserved, may now resume.

[ 14. August 2017, 09:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
the message I get from you that nobody on the other side of a conflict could, theoretically, ever be won over, and that how they got there is never worth thinking about.

You get the wrong message. There are people who can be won over. The difference between us is in how many backs must serve as a bridge in the attempt.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Adeodatus
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Well I really buggered that up, didn't I?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You get the wrong message. There are people who can be won over. The difference between us is in how many backs must serve as a bridge in the attempt.

That's helpful in understanding where you're coming from; thank you.

Now Adeodatus, do have another go. Repair with gold, perhaps? [Two face]

[ 14. August 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doc Tor
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In my experience, which admittedly is limited, people who are racist because they hold misconceptions and wrong ideas about black people/Jews/etc can be, with time and patience, persuaded to change their views. I'm also noting that it's not up to black or Jewish people to facilitate that change.

People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

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Improbable Botany

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Well I really buggered that up, didn't I?

I looked at it, and thought, "Nah, let it stand as a monument for folly."

One out of two wasn't bad. Wasn't good either...

[ 14. August 2017, 09:42: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Improbable Botany

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Now Adeodatus, do have another go. Repair with gold, perhaps? [Two face]

Your smirk is almost audible. Watch out for those wrinkles... [Razz]

Mike Godwin, originator of Godwin's Law, is ok with everyone calling the white supremacists who met in Charlottesville Nazis - link. It's come to this.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

No, I don't think so. There's a line they crossed. They want to wallow in their sin, for whatever their motivation for that. No one forced them to travel to Charlottesville, made them display fascist symbols and chant Nazi slogans.

At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?

Because I'm going for "marching in uniform carrying swastikas". Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.

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Improbable Botany

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

It doesn't matter. He committed the most evil deed. Our actions define us as well as our hearts.

[Frown]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?

Oh, I think we all deserve the consequences of our actions, and there is no doubt that the actual action of wilfully taking a life, say, deserves serious punishment in line with the circumstances.

But I don't think there's a straight-line correlation between the terribleness of specific acts and the chances of somebody being won over. Witness the apostle Paul.

(Thinking about it, I guess it's one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty).

[ 14. August 2017, 10:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.

Oh, yes, obviously that's who he was referring to. Not, say, Antifa, who brought their own weapons, piss baloons, guns, etc. to Charlottesville.
(for one example covered in MSM, check 4/14)

There are many arguments that can be made about relative power and influence etc. when it comes to the "both sides bullshit" but when Antifa is attacking reporters at anti-white supremacy rallies (as happened again last night) asking people not to believe their own lying eyes while seemingly willfully misrepresenting their statements is likely to drive people away from your team.

But there's a free speech rally scheduled in Boston for the 19th (which was planned long before this weekend's disaster) and from what I hear both sides are preparing for serious violence and there's talk of people planning more rallies in other cities on the same date... so what the hell, why don't we all kick back, point fingers, and cast blame while we wait for Civil War 2.0 to kick off.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.

Agh, that's a whole gamut of involvement lumped together right there.

Besides, I'm not sure the guy who did the actual killing in Charlottesville is actually the most evil of the bunch any more than I think the idiots blowing themselves up on our streets are the most evil of their bunch.

No, I don't think so. There's a line they crossed. They want to wallow in their sin, for whatever their motivation for that. No one forced them to travel to Charlottesville, made them display fascist symbols and chant Nazi slogans.

At what level of 'involvement' do you think Nazi sympathisers actually deserve the consequences of their actions?

Because I'm going for "marching in uniform carrying swastikas". Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.

It's what JWHD.

--------------------
Love wins

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Eutychus
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I don't think taking these people on while suffering from a Messiah complex is going to help.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Witness the apostle Paul.

You do realise that the phrase 'Damascene conversion' involves actual divine intervention, right?

That's okay. God can show up in Richard Spencer's jail cell or by his hospital bed.

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Improbable Botany

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roybart
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Meanwhile, back at the Charlottesville battlefield ...
The Daily Stormer, a white supremacist website, says the following about President Trump's comments on the demonstration:

quote:
He didn't attack us. Refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him.
Source: NY Times editorial, "The Hate He Dares Not Speak Of." 8/14/17. This mentions that the White House issued an unsigned [n.b] statement yesterday "saying that the president's words on Saturday 'of course' included "white supremacists, KKK, Neo-Nazi and all extremist groups."

Of course.

[ 14. August 2017, 12:02: Message edited by: roybart ]

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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In my online foray last eve, I came across the Twitter feed "@yesyoureracist" which puts up pictures of people like the Charlotteville bigots, identifies them, sends the info around with aims at public shaming, getting them fired from their jobs. Notwithstanding the possibility of creating a Horst Wessel, they have baked their cake and must lie in it.

[-
On a completely different part of this thread, Gandhi's relationship with the Nazis is not admirable.
-]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I spend a lot of time with people convicted of offences who acted together with one or more others. There is usually a ringleader (often not the obvious person) and the majority of participants are in my view far less evil than that person.

One of the most frustrating things when discussing fascists (besides the fact that it's 2017 and we're still dealing with fascists!) is the degree to which "I was only following orders" is still considered a valid mitigating excuse by some folks. You'd think a certain degree of infamy would have adhered to that justification so people would be reluctant, or even ashamed, to trot it out, especially in the context of fascism, but apparently not.

"Not as evil as the guy giving the orders" is not an exoneration and having to resort to that kind of excuse making should be considered a flashing red warning light.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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roybart
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No prophet's, it's ironic that you mention "shaming." What follows is from the Daily Stormer. I recommend that everyone have a look at this to learn something about the under-belly of American society, not so "under-belly" nowadays. Read especially the depiction of the counter-protestor who was rammed and killed during the riots. Look for the headline "Heather Heyer: Woman Killed in Road Rage Incident was a Fat, Childless 32-Year-Old Slut." Be prepared to be sickened/frightened/enraged.

By the way the approved alt-right label for these events is the "Battle of Charlottesville." Read the "Firsthand Account" The language of innocent, abused patriotism coexists on Daily Stormer with gutter vituperation, as rhetoric always does when it comes from the far-right.

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Witness the apostle Paul.

You do realise that the phrase 'Damascene conversion' involves actual divine intervention, right?

That's okay. God can show up in Richard Spencer's jail cell or by his hospital bed.

It can happen. Neither of these two stories explicitly refer to Jesus, but there's a lot of amazing grace there.

Arno Michaelis

TJ Leyden

(I'd recommend the whole book of Forgiveness Project stories; some are very hard to read, but worth it)

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
No prophet's, it's ironic that you mention "shaming." What follows is from the Daily Stormer. I recommend that everyone have a look at this to learn something about the under-belly of American society, not so "under-belly" nowadays. Read especially the depiction of the counter-protestor who was rammed and killed during the riots. Look for the headline "Heather Heyer: Woman Killed in Road Rage Incident was a Fat, Childless 32-Year-Old Slut." Be prepared to be sickened/frightened/enraged.

By the way the approved alt-right label for these events is the "Battle of Charlottesville." Read the "Firsthand Account" The language of innocent, abused patriotism coexists on Daily Stormer with gutter vituperation, as rhetoric always does when it comes from the far-right.

Good heavens. This is the sort of thing my grandmother talked of before the family left Berlin in 1936.

There is an absurd normalization of both the general identity and racialist politics, and a normalization of the president. Has it come time that there must be disrespect of the office of the president because of who holds the office? Is it collusion with the racialists to continue to respect the office notwithstanding the man? Is there a moral imperative to become honest about the defects and harmful intent of the man and to label them and the man clearly?

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It can happen.

I'm not denying it can happen. But in both those cases, the recognition of the need for change has come from within.

(/tangent One of the characters in my next-published book is a member of the Aryan Brotherhood who 'got religion'.)

Someone can't be reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And frankly, I'm not going to suggest a quiet chat over a cup of tea while several hundred of them are marching down the street with Nazi flags. I don't think they're in the mood to listen.

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Improbable Botany

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag

There is an absurd normalization of both the general identity and racialist politics, and a normalization of the president. Has it come time that there must be disrespect of the office of the president because of who holds the office? Is it collusion with the racialists to continue to respect the office notwithstanding the man? Is there a moral imperative to become honest about the defects and harmful intent of the man and to label them and the man clearly? [/QB]

A friend of a friend notes:
'Should a government official take sides in this situation, it would lay the onus on that official to crack down on the side condemned. However, if the ultimate goal is to increase national violence to the point where a declaration of martial law and suspension of all our Constitutional rights can be persuasively offered, then not taking sides is the perfect position.'

The headline of this (free) opinion piece says it all. This is the bleakest moment in America in living memory.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Here are the anarchists that Mere Nick so derides.

Oh, yes, obviously that's who he was referring to. Not, say, Antifa, who brought their own weapons, piss baloons, guns, etc. to Charlottesville.
(for one example covered in MSM, check 4/14)

There are many arguments that can be made about relative power and influence etc. when it comes to the "both sides bullshit" but when Antifa is attacking reporters at anti-white supremacy rallies (as happened again last night) asking people not to believe their own lying eyes while seemingly willfully misrepresenting their statements is likely to drive people away from your team.

But there's a free speech rally scheduled in Boston for the 19th (which was planned long before this weekend's disaster) and from what I hear both sides are preparing for serious violence and there's talk of people planning more rallies in other cities on the same date... so what the hell, why don't we all kick back, point fingers, and cast blame while we wait for Civil War 2.0 to kick off.

Oh those poor dear Nazis! I know your heart aches for them, and people feel the need to be so beastly to them. All they wanted was a little bit of Poland, a little bit of France.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is the bleakest moment in America in living memory.

Maybe if you're 10 years old... [Roll Eyes]

[ 14. August 2017, 15:19: Message edited by: romanlion ]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Just in case you need an enema


... I'm Zappa and I shat and upchucked at this message

(authorized by Zappa, yellow snow, celestial heavens)

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Deconstructing the Farcebook link, it appears you may zap your way here for your toileting.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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Rephrasing Hannah Arendt, "Gleichschaltung" is a German word which she defined as "falling into line, coordinating, accommodating as if business, governance and social relations is proceeding as usual, and all will be fine".

The suggestion that illegal immigration is the cause of the economic struggles of working-class whites is an American meme and provides the false truth which makes the racialism acceptable: Muslims and Mexicans are stabbing Americans in the back.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10653 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Wesley J

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# 6075

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This WW2 anti-nazi propaganda film by the US War Department seems to be shared widely on social media at the moment, I am told: 'Don't be a sucker'; free download in better quality from the internet archive.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
the degree to which "I was only following orders" is still considered a valid mitigating excuse by some folks.

I'm tempted to refer to Milgram's experiment for the second time in as many days but last time didn't go down well...

For one thing, following orders is not the same as peer pressure or manipulation. For another, "mitigation" is not the same as "excuse" or "exonerate".

I frequently get mad at the criminal justice system for not apportioning blame as I myself would in a given situation, but I'm glad that at least some attempt is made to determine degrees of responsibility and sanction accordingly, rather than a one-size-fits-all solution.

I'm in no doubt as to which side is responsible for provoking this confrontation and that they're on the wrong side of history (well at least the official version), but I strongly believe that to treat that side as though it was a unilateral equally evil bloc is to serve its purpose rather than combat it effectively in the long term.

As I also believe that the side "in the right", other things being equal, should not be dealt with any more indulgently.

Assault with an offensive weapon in identical circumstances by a protestor on either side should receive the same tariff. If the protestor on one side gets an additional sentence for being part of a terrorist organisation or some such, that's another matter.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

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Improbable Botany

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.

As far as I'm concerned, I really can't see myself taking up sticks, stones, or bottles against a mob of any kind.

You can count me in with those leaders of different faiths facing them off with "this little light of mine" mentioned earlier.

Or perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

I'm not expecting you or your conscience to join me, or judging you if you don't, but that's definitely where I'd be.

[ 14. August 2017, 18:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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So have you been counter protesting the French National Front ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.

That'll warm the cockles of my heart, just before they're warmed by the fires of the crematorium.

You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

--------------------
Improbable Botany

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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No, but I've put myself in the public gaze, in the media, linking hands with leaders of other faiths at a high-profile event in my city to take a stand against so-called Islamic terrorism.

If the far right were to get up to the cultural equivalent of Charlottesville where I am then I'd do so with no hesitation, but only because I've thought hard about it first.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

--------------------
One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Not American, but

a) Too late.

b) I bet it was first and foremost to try and stop any more of this happening.

[ 14. August 2017, 18:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?

IJ

My immediate reaction is that Trump is like the six year old Johnny, who after hitting Suzie on the arm, belatedly and reluctantly says "Sorry" after his mother tells him to "say Sorry."

The difference might be that Johnny will grow up and figure out that that was the right thing to do and that hitting Suzie was wrong.

Trump won't.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Yes, I rather got that impression, too.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

July 1944? Millions were already dead by then.

I asked the question. You answered. You would do nothing of any substance. You wouldn't have my back. You would wring your hands as the trucks pull out and say (quietly) how terrible it all was. Perhaps a bit of Niemoller would be more appropriate here, since I am literally one, two and three on that list.

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Improbable Botany

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
BBC News reports that Trump has condemned 'evil racism':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40927089

A tad belatedly, perhaps, but what do our American Shipmates think? Is he sincere (yes, yes, I know - this is Trump), or are these weasel words, to divert attention from his warlike designs on North Korea, Venezuela etc.?

IJ

They are not his words, he was reading every careful word.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

It was done. It didn't work.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16231 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Fair comment.

O poor America, Ichabod indeed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichabod

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

Not Jesus.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16231 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

It was done. It didn't work.
It did here.

--------------------
Improbable Botany

Posts: 8590 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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(Cross-posted - I was commenting on Boogie's post).

I think I see what Martin is saying, so WWJD?

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8387 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It will come as no surprise to you that I think that's a matter for every individual's conscience.

As far as I'm concerned, I really can't see myself taking up sticks, stones, or bottles against a mob of any kind.

You can count me in with those leaders of different faiths facing them off with "this little light of mine" mentioned earlier.

Or perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

I'm not expecting you or your conscience to join me, or judging you if you don't, but that's definitely where I'd be.

I hope I'd have the courage to. Bonhoeffer is not an appropriate example tho'?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16231 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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