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Source: (consider it) Thread: Charlottesville
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I can't remember who it was who lamented the fact that in the old days people used to go out on the streets, now they just write a really angry blogpost.

Some people on here are on record as putting their money where their mouth is in real life. My respect goes to them for having the courage of their convictions.

In response to DT I've offered up my own real-life example of what I've done, one that put me in no physical danger but which I'm sure, modest though it is, along with other things I've done, might have moved my name up a few actual hit lists.

What exactly would you do, Doc Tor or Martin60, if you had been in Charlottesville the other day, away from your keyboards. Would you actually arm up and go down there to inflict maximum casualties on the other side?

[ETA x-post. Martin you can take your name off my list]

[ 14. August 2017, 19:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Again, sorry, Eutychus, but I don't agree.

At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?

I'm asking for a friend. Six million friends.

It was done. It didn't work.
It did here.
In the East End against Moseley, yes. I have nothing but admiration for those who have to act because Christians won't.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You know how this ended last time, and that's as much as you can manage? A bit of kum-by-ya and a few good wishes? Fuck you.

Maybe you're missing a piece of the story.

To me "Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets" is not the language of nazism, it's the language of violent extremism, whoever's saying it.

And Dr. King didn't sing Kumbaya.

[ 14. August 2017, 19:14: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

Posts: 16905 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I would protest, loudly but peacefully.

When they tried to make speeches I would be with the crowd shouting them down and preventing the media from hearing them.

I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

Join with those like you trying to be cotton wool in a box full of razor blades I hope.

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

And if they'd once turned around and come at us, I'd have folded my glasses into my pocket and I'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with my comrades - black, white, Asian, young, old, anarchists, communists, socialists, any one of goodwill.

There are two sides here. One is the Nazis. The other is not the Nazis. There is no equivalence between them.

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Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And Dr. King didn't sing Kumbaya.

If he took up weapons against the other side, told his supporters to clear the streets of them while telling them to fuck off, it can't have made it into the sanitised biopic. Did I miss something or was that more Malcolm X?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

That's a million miles from what you were advocating just now.

quote:
There are two sides here. One is the Nazis. The other is not the Nazis. There is no equivalence between them.
Do you go along with the ethos of "to the victors go the trials", too?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

Join with those like you trying to be cotton wool in a box full of razor blades I hope.
I like the image of "setting one's face like flint" more. It might even do some blunting [Angel]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And Dr. King didn't sing Kumbaya.

If he took up weapons against the other side, told his supporters to clear the streets of them while telling them to fuck off, it can't have made it into the sanitised biopic. Did I miss something or was that more Malcolm X?
No mate, he used civil - in every meaning of the word - disobedience under passive resistance. I AGREE with you for fuck's sake! (Which is the first time in my life I've ever said that!!)

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Love wins

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
No, but I've put myself in the public gaze, in the media, linking hands with leaders of other faiths at a high-profile event in my city to take a stand against so-called Islamic terrorism.

If the far right were to get up to the cultural equivalent of Charlottesville where I am then I'd do so with no hesitation, but only because I've thought hard about it first.

They nearly achieved the presidency, how far exactly do they need to get ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Had they achieved it, I'd have had to do more hard thinking about what I would do; previous discussions on the Ship would have informed my decision.

It's not directly comparable to my mind.

For one, the FN is an elected party, not an unelected rabble. For another, it expresses its nastiness in a much subtler manner and is a whole lot savvier about wrong-footing hotheaded opposition.

Either way, I wouldn't be taking up bottles, stones, or fists.

As it is they seem to be imploding nicely of their own accord. For now.

[ 14. August 2017, 19:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On second thoughts, put your name back on again. What would you do?

Join with those like you trying to be cotton wool in a box full of razor blades I hope.
I like the image of "setting one's face like flint" more. It might even do some blunting [Angel]
[Overused] the trouble is, putting my head where my armchair mouth is, it's liable to get externally as cracked as it is internally! Which one must bow it to. The blood of martyrs and all that.

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Love wins

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I would have gone to Charlottesville, in exactly the same way I've gone into the centre of my local town, to outnumber and shout down the fascists, disrupting their pathetic little marches and moving them on.

And if they'd once turned around and come at us, I'd have folded my glasses into my pocket and I'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with my comrades - black, white, Asian, young, old, anarchists, communists, socialists, any one of goodwill.

There are two sides here. One is the Nazis. The other is not the Nazis. There is no equivalence between them.

Admirable Doc, in the absence of a Christian response. Seriously. Moving them on is coercive after all. If you're not going to be a Christian peacemaker, then get your retaliation in first surely?

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Love wins

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would protest, loudly but peacefully.

When they tried to make speeches I would be with the crowd shouting them down and preventing the media from hearing them.

I wouldn't chase them with sticks or anything else, I can't hurt living things, even wasps.

But, if they come down my street with guns and torches what use would I be? None.

So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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How can one know or blame any that did?

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
So at the Selma bridge you would have turned tail and fled?
I'm sure you know this, but anyone who is going to this kind of demonstration needs to be trained in non-violent resistance. The vast majority of us, if we're honest, not only wouldn't have been there at the Selma bridge, we wouldn't have had any business being there.

If the neo-Nazis planned a rally in my town, whether or not I would counter-protest would depend on who was organizing that and what their plans were.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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First Martin agrees with me. Then I agree with RuthW. They must have put something in the water.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Ah, now it comes out that the killer was really a Hilary supporter, and funded by (who else?) George Soros. You can't make this shit up. Oh wait. You can. Or at least, THEY can.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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A whole range of options other than nothing have been offered.

I hope I would do something (cf my sig). What I'd like not to do, if at all possible, and to quote from George Smiley, is be
quote:
inhuman in our defence of humanity, harsh in defence of compassion, single-minded in defence of our disparity
.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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There are going to be 9 alt-right marches on Saturday, in Atlanta, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Seattle, New York, Washington, Austin, Boston, and Mountain View, California. (They are demonstrating in favor of the guy who was fired from Google for complaining about affirmative action.) You can say counter protest, can't you? I can. I need to find out where the DC one is. And what, oh what should my signs say?

This article discussing it is free.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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More important than what your signs say is listening to what RuthW has to say. Take care.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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I have knee issues, which will prevent me from standing for 9 hours straight like I did in January. But, at least, no one can say that I didn't stand up. (Perhaps I'll paint the signs, go there and give them away, and then sit down...)

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

Particularly since I had my gall bladder removed three days ago and am in a good deal of pain, I probably wouldn't be on the barricades.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

Particularly since I had my gall bladder removed three days ago and am in a good deal of pain, I probably wouldn't be on the barricades.
Very sorry to hear that. Nasty experience. Hope and pray the recovery is quick.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

? As they did at Selma. Without attacking evil with violence. Were they wrong? Despite winning? Without killing anyone? Did they not show a better way?

--------------------
Love wins

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

And if you don't have it even sitting behind a monitor, there is no question where you will be when it counts.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I was just going to ask mousethief what real life action he could bring to the table. The fact that one can find a cause admirable from behind a monitor doesn't mean one might not have what it takes to face dogs, riot sticks, and water cannon in the front line.

And if you don't have it even sitting behind a monitor, there is no question where you will be when it counts.
That's hardly fair. You could be hiding, pontificating from behind a monitor, or you could be on the WRONG SIDE of the barricades.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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The times are different now. We have good information about what's going one and who is doing what. At the same time we have the (weak) responses of those who should be responding more strongly, which is the world wild web of information used to form our opinion, and to allow manipulative analysis of wrong responses such that people can say that 'although there's aspects of this obnoxious man who is president which are objectionable, we can over look it because after all he's the president and we must respect the office, but also because he sells a message that we want to believe which is about hope'.

None of which will do. I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people. And I think trumpy knows they form a goodly part of his base.

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, judging from the responses here, evil will triumph because good men (and women) will do nothing.

Terrific.

? As they did at Selma. Without attacking evil with violence. Were they wrong? Despite winning? Without killing anyone? Did they not show a better way?
And if white Christians had joined en masse with our black brothers and sisters, would Selma have even been necessary?

No. No it wouldn't.

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Forward the New Republic

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

You've not given any indication you actually give a shit about anything except causing strife. Go back to masturbating over the press the alt-right are getting.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

This is unreasonable, and unworthy of you, NP.

Look, I have never voted anywhere but left in my life, and the centre line here is a good way further leftward than it is in the States, but, you know, I try and operate on the basis that it's possible for people to have opinions and values that are very different from my own, and still not be advocates for crucifixion. I think that, despite the fact it feels like things are going to hell in a handcart at the moment, it probably remains the case that the majority of* those on the other side of the political divide from me are not savages, not animals, not absolutely, fundamentally, 'other'.

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

--edit: typo--

[ 15. August 2017, 00:56: Message edited by: anoesis ]

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

You've not given any indication you actually give a shit about anything except causing strife. Go back to masturbating over the press the alt-right are getting.
You can do the world a favor as well fucktard. Run right out to your nearest un-permitted "counter-protest". I'm sure you get the notifications. Stand in the street while you are there.

Maybe then I'll have something to actually masturbate over...

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
In my experience, which admittedly is limited, people who are racist because they hold misconceptions and wrong ideas about black people/Jews/etc can be, with time and patience, persuaded to change their views. I'm also noting that it's not up to black or Jewish people to facilitate that change.

People who dress up in uniform, march down a street with Nazi flags, give Nazi salutes and kill protesters? Nope.
--
Someone can't be reasoned out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And frankly, I'm not going to suggest a quiet chat over a cup of tea while several hundred of them are marching down the street with Nazi flags. I don't think they're in the mood to listen.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of the above.

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
At which point during the rise of the Nazis do you think it's appropriate to take to the streets and face down their threat, with fists and bottles and sticks if necessary?
--
Fuck those guys. Chase them off the streets.

I don’t know, any more than Eutychus does, where I’d draw that line - I haven’t had to seriously think about it before - but I do accept that, with some behaviours, it is absolutely necessary to just draw a line, and say, No, this is not ok, and I don’t want to hear any of your explanations, I’m not interested in your backstory, it doesn’t matter if you had a troubled childhood, if this is the only model you’ve ever been shown, whatever, whatever, still not ok. And to become physical in defence of this line in the sand, I think I’m probably on board with as well, at least partially because I do indeed agree that folk can’t be reasoned out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

But here’s the caveat: I keep thinking of these (distressingly regular) incidents where an individual on a bus stands up and gets all in the face of a woman in a niqab and screams out a torrent of invective at her, the gist of which is that she should take her terrorist ass back to where she fucking came from. In a typical incident of this sort, there’s one aggressor, one victim, one person who calls the aggressor out on their behaviour, and forty-odd people who just sit there and watch it all play out. Now, I don’t think any of those forty people are inactive because they can’t figure out whose side to take. They have opinions, already. Some of them will be quietly and privately on the side of the aggressor, and some will be quietly and privately on the side of the victim.

Without in any way wishing to diminish the need to actually address violence, Nazism, white supremacy at source, ISTM that the real battle to stop this sort of thing spreading takes place not on the streets, but in the hearts and minds of the bystanders, the watchers. They’re the swing voters. So I’d like to think that the chasing of the Nazis et al off the streets can be done keeping in mind the watchers, in a way that inspires, rather than alienates, those who are quietly on the side of right, perhaps prompts them out of passivity, and in a way that convicts those who are quietly and passively on the side of wrong. Because I think they are those who can still be won over by reason.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

Which makes you a right fucking moron, on par with the driver of a particular silver Dodge...

Suffer long and die screaming asshole.

You've not given any indication you actually give a shit about anything except causing strife. Go back to masturbating over the press the alt-right are getting.
You can do the world a favor as well fucktard. Run right out to your nearest un-permitted "counter-protest". I'm sure you get the notifications. Stand in the street while you are there.

Maybe then I'll have something to actually masturbate over...

Typical, invective with absolutely no skill or intelligence. Of course, that explains your posting habits as well. romanlion? Well, maybe...

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

Trump's supporters are a mixed bag. But they all had to overlook his blatant, racist and polemic rhetoric during his campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
In a typical incident of this sort, there’s one aggressor, one victim, one person who calls the aggressor out on their behaviour, and forty-odd people who just sit there and watch it all play out. Now, I don’t think any of those forty people are inactive because they can’t figure out whose side to take.

I have been stood up* and I have been a coward in the face of threats to other people. So I am not condemning any individual. However, it remains that democracy dies a bit with each time no one stands. Democracy isn't free, someone must be willing to pay the price to maintain it.
You and I are no different than the average German prior to, and during, WWII. They were not monsters, they who allowed monstrous things. Yes, winning hearts of the undecided is an admirable goal. But when the situation had moved beyond that being reasonable, it is time to resist.

*I'll not claim to have been brave in those situations, merely angry enough.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

This is unreasonable, and unworthy of you, NP.

Look, I have never voted anywhere but left in my life, and the centre line here is a good way further leftward than it is in the States, but, you know, I try and operate on the basis that it's possible for people to have opinions and values that are very different from my own, and still not be advocates for crucifixion. I think that, despite the fact it feels like things are going to hell in a handcart at the moment, it probably remains the case that the majority of* those on the other side of the political divide from me are not savages, not animals, not absolutely, fundamentally, 'other'.

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

--edit: typo--

Really? The guy they voted for said Mexicans are rapists, he said build a wall, he questioned the prior president's birth, doesn't like blacks counting his money (he wants Jews), complete shutdown on Muslims. And we haven't talked about he recommendation to treat women like shit, grabbing their genitals, blood coming out of her whatever. Mussolini made the trains run on time, so I guess he's a good guy?
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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
You can do the world a favor as well fucktard. Run right out to your nearest un-permitted "counter-protest". I'm sure you get the notifications. Stand in the street while you are there.

Maybe then I'll have something to actually masturbate over...

Bad day at work, romanlion? And here's you with no dog to kick at home?

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I think most of the voters for trumpy would enjoy crucifying Jesus, along with any Mexicans or Muslims and off-white people.

This is unreasonable, and unworthy of you, NP.

Look, I have never voted anywhere but left in my life, and the centre line here is a good way further leftward than it is in the States, but, you know, I try and operate on the basis that it's possible for people to have opinions and values that are very different from my own, and still not be advocates for crucifixion. I think that, despite the fact it feels like things are going to hell in a handcart at the moment, it probably remains the case that the majority of* those on the other side of the political divide from me are not savages, not animals, not absolutely, fundamentally, 'other'.

*I emphasise this, because NP makes reference to 'most of' Trump's supporters, who I think should be distinguished from, say, the Nazi ones.

--edit: typo--

Really? The guy they voted for said Mexicans are rapists, he said build a wall, he questioned the prior president's birth, doesn't like blacks counting his money (he wants Jews), complete shutdown on Muslims. And we haven't talked about he recommendation to treat women like shit, grabbing their genitals, blood coming out of her whatever. Mussolini made the trains run on time, so I guess he's a good guy?
It seems to me that a good part of the reason Nazis and white supremacists are able to justify to themselves their thoughts, their words, and their actions, is that they have othered blacks, Jews, gays, uppity women, etc., to such an extent that they're not people anymore, and therefore it doesn't matter what happens to them. And I think that when you start suggesting that anyone who voted a particular way would likely think that crucifying Mexicans is a good Friday night's entertainment - well, that's some heavy-duty othering right there as well, and do you really want to do that - that's all I was trying to say. Not comparing anyone to a Nazi. Not signalling an admiration of Mussolini. Not even saying that I can comprehend why someone might vote for Trump.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Golden Key
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lilBuddha--

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb] ETA:
Ricardus--

(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give

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lilBuddha
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As I said upthread, in the wake of the 2013 shootings of black parishioners in Charlottesville by a white supremacist, most public buildings removed confederate flags. There was broad support* in the South. They understood the situation. Those resisting this are doing so with all that in mind. It doesn't put them in a good light. And the fact that white supremacist groups are also attracted to the statue cause should give decent people pause.
This does not mean they are all horrible people. But they have to wilfully ignore the horrible people who march to the same tune.

*Not universal, of course.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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lilBuddha--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ETA:
Ricardus--

(Neither Southern nor conservative nor right wing, but...)

They presumably viewed the war as the US abandoning *them*. They were in the right, and Lee joined them, so he was in the right.

And, IMHO, many Southerners view the pre-war South as a magical Golden Age. Put that together with the "lost cause", and I imagine that's all really hard to give up.

Two notes: The rally under discussion was not a group of misguided southerners pining for a mythological cause. It was white supremacists using the statue to further their own cause.
The statue under discussion, and many others erected around the South, was erected specifically to create that myth. This isn't news. The response to the 2013 church shootings in this very same city shows that Southerners do understand this issue.
You are a good person for thinking kindly, but I think it is misguided in this case.

I was specifically replying to Ricardus, who posted a little before me:
quote:

Re Lee, isn't the issue also that on the frame of reference used by the far-right, Lee can't be anything other than a traitor? If the Supreme Good is loyalty to your country, then taking up arms against your country isn't a terribly good way of demonstrating that.

I'm not an apologist for their cause, or saying "there, there". But the idea of loyalty to country is a complicated one. Plus I've got some anti-Southern stereotypes/prejudices that I'm gradually peeling away; so I'm trying to think, and not just react. And there are reasons why people do what they do. Knowing/exploring those reasons can help in figuring out what to do.

From what I understand, from news over the years, yes, many Southerners have found ways of moving on, and support getting rid of Confederacy-related items. But many others seem to have quite a visceral reaction against that.

Now, maybe the visceral-reaction folks consciously and whole-heartedly want to bring back slavery of African Americans, in all its horror. I doubt that's true of many/most of them. Most of what I've heard about is the Golden Age and Lost Cause stuff. They're not the first people to deal with that, and those ideas and feelings tend to run pretty deep. When you've got bad stuff, untruths, and maybe some good, but misused, stuff all tangled together, it's really hard to tease it all apart.

But, in the respectful and humble opinion of this non-Southerner, I think that the only way the relevant white Southerners can change this is to look at it, and dig through it, and get right down to the roots of it, and disentangle them.

As to using the statue: that tends to be why *any* historical/military statue is installed. Memorial, propaganda, fine-tuning history.

YMMV.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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Fine. They are lovely, wonderful people who just happen to repress the same group they were no longer allowed to enslave.
No one is perfect, but please.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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{H/As--Would someone please remove my messy, partial post a couple of posts up ? I'm having connection problems, and that went through without my knowing.

Many thanks!}


[ 15. August 2017, 05:53: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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An addendum to note that I have been to the American South and met many lovely people. If they can properly process the history, there is much less an excuse for those who do not. It is 2017.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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lB--

Never said they're nice, lovely people. Nor excused what they've done. Just that there are reasons for anything that anyone does. And the bad things they do can't really be stopped/prevented, without getting at those reasons.

FYI: I've figured this out by working through things that have happened to me, and trying to come to terms with them, so that I can heal and move on. I'm a universalist, which means I believe that *everyone* will be healed and heal things they've done. No exceptions. And no "there, there, it's ok, have an ice lolly, you did nothing wrong", when there really was wrong. Just hard work and healing. Lollies later. [Biased]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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