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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Are atheists a persecuted group?
Anglican_Brat
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With the publication of Christopher Hitchens' book "God is not great", Sam Harris's "The End of Religion", there is a claim by some that atheists are being persecuted in the United States. Usually the evidence is that according to polls, a majority of American citizens will not vote for a proclaimed atheist as President.

Now I can accept that some people are still prejudiced against atheists and agnostics. I can even accept that some Christians aren't exactly keen on defending the rights of atheists. On the other hand, I don't know if we can say that atheists are being persecuted. I don't know of any modern history where atheists were violently attacked as a group by religious people.

[ 23. October 2007, 12:05: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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MerlintheMad
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I don't see any persecution. Disagreement, surely. Even loud disagreement. But the shouting is coming from both sides. Nobody is going to compel voters to side with an atheist if they are determined not to.

But I think that if a hypothetical case of two equally admired politicians came down to religious differences, and the atheist was balanced and rational, where the religious opponent was vitriolic and unreasonable, that the atheist would win. That's just he way the world is going, imho.

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Timothy the Obscure

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I think very few atheists would dare to be "out" if they were running for public office in the USA. In some parts of the country (southeastern Idaho being one), I think that they might hesitate to state their beliefs publically for fear that it might result in discrimination in employment or, if they are self-employed, in loss of business. Whether this constitutes persecution probably depends on your definition.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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multipara
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Not around here they're not.

I'd have thought that short of living in a theocracy, it's a pretty safe run (but it begs the question as to whether that makes the State of Idaho theocratic).

Militant atheists (like God-botherers) in the Antipodes are generally either ignored or mocked, since fortunately in this country one's beliefs (or lack thereof) are considered to be a private matter. Those who publicly and noisily spout either their belief or their unbelief tendto be dismissed as mere flashers.

m

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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Makepiece
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I think there's an interesting dynamic between British and American culture going on. The two cultures have grown alot closer in many ways but the differences have become exacerbated in the process. Many British people are so angry with the Christian right and George W Bush in the USA that atheism has become more popular and Christians feel persecuted by some of the anger being aimed at them over the Iraq war. In the USA it wouldn't surprise me if the opposite where the case. Ever since USA dominated world politics the British have had an inferiority complex. I think alot of people see atheism as an example of British intellectual superiority and point the finger at those ignorant, religious Americans. Nigeria similarly gets labelled as an anti-feminist, christian country.

[ 22. July 2007, 08:15: Message edited by: Makepiece ]

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Imaginary Friend

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Which just goes to show how dangerous it can be to stereotype an entire country the size of America.

I am British and currently live in Britain, but to this outsider it seems attitudes in, say, Boston are rather different from those described in Idaho.

As for Blighty, I think it's assumed that you are agnostic unless you make a particular statement otherwise. In terms of politics, there is deep skepticism around anyone who professes faith. Take Ruth Kelly and the Catholic adoption agencies 'scandal' for one case in point.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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For what it's worth, one of the relatively few really shocking cultural differences I found between the US and the UK when I actually started living in England was the apparent casualness with which some reasonably mature, serious people volunteered their atheism here. In the US, IME, the only people who readily say they are atheists are teenagers, university students, and a few more adult "free thinkers", many of whom are really quite obnoxious. I always perceived that in America it was perhaps somewhat ok to proclaim oneself agnostic, but that contrariwise atheism is a very radical label there. I view this as a deep divide between contemporary British and American culture. ISTM that my dismay at the casuaul and seemingly widespread British attitude of atheism - given that I'm a fairly typical social liberal Anglican - underscores the profundity of this cultural diffence. So are atheists persecuted in America? Well, probably at least culturally suppressed.
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Beautiful Dreamer
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Persecution is being fed to a lion, being arrested or forced to convert at the point of a sword. It is not being disagreed with on an internet message board. It is being denied a job because of your faith (or lack thereof), not having to be around people who are different from you. I think 'persecution' is waaaay too strong a word to use here.

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Mad Geo

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Some of the defintions being tossed around here would render things like sexual harrassment and racial profiling "Nonpersecution". I suggest you might want to rethink your bad definitions. Many slaves were not fed to lions, yet were clearly "persecuted".

In addition, I doubt whether most people on this thread are qualified to define the level of persecution that is persecution. You are probably Christians or whatever, and not atheists, so you may have no idea what is happening to them. Not all but most.

In America, I would wager that if it were found out that one was an atheist, one could lose one's job, one could lose one's friends, one could especially lose one's family (be thrwon out). Persecution, persecution, persecution.

A recent poll here found 52% of Americans have an unfavorable attitude or worse towards atheists. They are lower than jews, and muslims. That pretty much says it all. Only overweight people and athiests are the last acceptable minority to despise in America. Both very wrongfully so.

If we define persecution down to fit the worst examples, we miss the opportunity to evaluate our own attitudes of exclusion and divisiveness, at minimum. Attitudes that I think we can all agree should not be extended to anyone that isn't an axe murderer or child molestor.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Mad Geo, I wish it were just atheists and fatties who were fair game in America, but to let you in on a little secret, outside of certain right-thinking enclaves, it's gay people too! But I do think you're being a bit histrionic about the level of discrimination faced in America by unbelievers overall. It's just that the Godless are such a negligible minority in America, most people probably don't run across any really serious atheists (maybe Southern Cally's different, of course).
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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
In America, I would wager that if it were found out that one was an atheist, one could lose one's job, one could lose one's friends, one could especially lose one's family (be thrwon out). Persecution, persecution, persecution.

That's ridiculous. I'd say about half the population around here is nonreligious, and a good percentage of those are atheists. Many of them work in high tech and are well-paid people who live in big houses and have generous medical benefits and excellent 401(k) plans.

Please, really. Let's try to keep a lid on the outrageous rhetoric.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I dunno TubaM. -- whilst agreeing that MG's rhetoric is absurd, IME many Americans are religiously nonobservant/"irreligious", but not actually atheistic. They either "think there's something" or else they "really don't know" (i.e. they're agnostic -- which is in a sense the plight we're all in anyway, even those of us who practice religion and profess belief). Many are sort of virtuous pagans, I'd say. I think very few frankly profess flat unbelief.
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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I dunno TubaM. -- whilst agreeing that MG's rhetoric is absurd, IME many Americans are religiously nonobservant/"irreligious", but not actually atheistic. They either "think there's something" or else they "really don't know" (i.e. they're agnostic -- which is in a sense the plight we're all in anyway, even those of us who practice religion and profess belief). Many are sort of virtuous pagans, I'd say. I think very few frankly profess flat unbelief.

I know quite a few people who call themselves atheists; I work in high tech, too, so I know these people. Lots of scientists are like this; it's just not that big a deal around here. And most young people go through an atheistic stage; I did, and loudly proclaimed it, too. I never saw anybody get the vapors over it.

In fact, it's considered to be a bit odd to be religiously devout in my area and among the people I know.

You are right, though, that it's less common to be explicitly atheist than to be nonreligious; perhaps if people react badly to someone declaring their atheism, they're just reacting against others who are so sure of something that nobody can actually know? Perhaps it's a reaction against militant atheism, IOW, and seen as sort of pompous and aggressive?

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Beeswax Altar
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If you had friends and family who were devout fundamentalists, they might disown you if you were atheist. Then, those people might disown you for joining a liberal church. My relatives are fundamentalists. They wouldn't disown me for being an atheist. They might if I were gay and told them about it.

I've never heard of an atheist loosing their job for being atheist. Most places have policies forbidding discrimination on the basis of religious belief. You might have anectdotal evidence this happens but its not common.

Americans rarely vote for atheists. So what? They rarely vote for libertarians, socialists, or greens either.

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Yorick

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I can offer you my experience as an atheist, for what it’s worth. It probably isn’t worth much, since I can only offer a study sample of one, but it is my genuine experience.

I do certainly feel that my public ‘coming out’ as an atheist would cause disadvantage to me- professionally and socially. The reasons for this are unimportant for the purposes of this thread, if you are willing to accept this at face value. Whether this disadvantage amounts to ‘persecution’ is uncertain (it depends on your definitions), and whether the disadvantage is only perceived rather than real is also debatable. But I suspect my reluctance to be openly atheistic would not be shared by the majority of Christians in America or the UK. Perhaps I shall be persuaded otherwise forthwith…

It strikes me that many theists are prejudiced about how atheists ought to feel, in this respect (as indeed it is vice versa). TM is clearly a long way from understanding how I feel about the disadvantages of being ‘out’, and this perhaps reveals something important. Reading her post, and those of other non-atheists who insist atheists are not discriminated against, makes me feel a bit like an ethnic minority group presumably does- whose own sense of discrimination is denied as legitimate by a majority white group. What would they know about it? To put it another way, offenders are in no position to dictate the terms by which the offended feel so. I’ve read comments by others on this Ship, who seem very quick to deny that atheists could possibly feel disadvantaged for their beliefs in any way at all. And yet this one does.

You should understand that I’m a very robust sort of character (if you hadn’t worked that out already). Insensitive, even! And yet, even I’m aware of the sense of discrimination, which atheists might feel, even in theistically-liberal Britain.

One of the things that makes me glad about the new wave of popular atheist literature (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, et al), is that it seems to be paving the way for people like me to be more comfortable about being openly atheist. I feel atheism is approaching a coming-of-age, and this should be welcomed by theists (if they can be honest enough).

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این نیز بگذرد

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Quercus
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I do certainly feel that my public ‘coming out’ as an atheist would cause disadvantage to me- professionally and socially. The reasons for this are unimportant for the purposes of this thread, if you are willing to accept this at face value. Whether this disadvantage amounts to ‘persecution’ is uncertain (it depends on your definitions), and whether the disadvantage is only perceived rather than real is also debatable. But I suspect my reluctance to be openly atheistic would not be shared by the majority of Christians in America or the UK. Perhaps I shall be persuaded otherwise forthwith…

I'm intrigued, mostly because friends and colleagues who are atheists seem to have no problem being open about the fact. Maybe because I worked first in science and then in law, I've just been in workplaces where being argumentative and individualistic are job skills. Conversely, I was very cautious about revealing my theist tendency at my current office.

As to the "persecution" side of things, I'm in a position of some responsibility, including for recruitment, and I can honestly say that a person's faith or otherwise has had no bearing on any decision I've made. (Admittedly, not just because to do otherwise would be discrimination at least. It's also because I don't want to explain to my partners why we've now got a day-trip to Industrial Tribunal Land)

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Death thought about it. CATS, he said eventually, CATS ARE NICE.

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Yorick

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I suppose the problem we face, atheists and theists alike, is that, by being 'out', we are labelled in a particular way.

I suppose my situation may be atypical, but I honestly feel it's to my advantage to remain closeted. The reason for this is more that I don't wish to be labelled as an atheist, and associated with what people perceive atheists, as a group, to be like. Of course, there is irony in this reflecting my own prejudice about what atheists are perceived to be like by others!

Atheists have an image problem. Dawkins, for one thing. Likewise, I doubt the many decent Catholic priests enjoy the association with paedopohilia.

The funny thing is that I feel perfectly comfortable to admit my atheism on a personal level, face to face, with anyone (and I use the term 'admit' carefully). If I could be certain of being able to discuss my beliefs with every third party to hold an opinion of me, I reckon it would be okay for me to be 'out'. But you cannot prevent people from making assumptions about you, if you admit to being part of a labelled group.

If you doubt this, examine your own assumed opinion of what is a 'typical atheist'.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Beautiful Dreamer
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I actually used to be an atheist. I went from that to agnostic to deist and then Christian. I grew up in the South US among a lot of religious people. No one really labeled me, but then I did not talk about religion. I wasn't trying to hide my lack fo belief, I just didn't think it was important. I was seen as something a little strange and I had people try to proseltyze, but nothing I would call persecution. But then, I was a teenager at the time so I hadn't been around as long as some of you have.

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More where that came from
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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
It strikes me that many theists are prejudiced about how atheists ought to feel, in this respect (as indeed it is vice versa). TM is clearly a long way from understanding how I feel about the disadvantages of being ‘out’, and this perhaps reveals something important. Reading her post, and those of other non-atheists who insist atheists are not discriminated against, makes me feel a bit like an ethnic minority group presumably does- whose own sense of discrimination is denied as legitimate by a majority white group. What would they know about it? To put it another way, offenders are in no position to dictate the terms by which the offended feel so. I’ve read comments by others on this Ship, who seem very quick to deny that atheists could possibly feel disadvantaged for their beliefs in any way at all. And yet this one does.

As I said, dogwonderer, I used to be atheist myself, so I do have experience with this. Your argument fails on that account.

Anyway, the claim the poster made is directly refutable in my own experience; I know quite a number of quite open atheists, and I know they haven't lost their jobs or been rejected by their families. Are you now telling me I'm wrong?

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TubaMirum
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(And BTW, how am I an "offender"? I don't remember ever firing an atheist for being one.)
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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I know quite a number of quite open atheists, and I know they haven't lost their jobs or been rejected by their families. Are you now telling me I'm wrong?

I'm sorry, TM. Reading it again, I see my post made it sound very like I was criticising you personally for discrimination against atheists, which was extremely clumsy of me. I can understand why you might be cross about this, and sincerely apologise for not making clear the distinction between the specific and the general. As I said, I may be atypical, but I'm certainly insensitive!

I hope you'll forgive me.

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این نیز بگذرد

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TubaMirum
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I'm sorry, TM. Reading it again, I see my post made it sound very like I was criticising you personally for discrimination against atheists, which was extremely clumsy of me. I can understand why you might be cross about this, and sincerely apologise for not making clear the distinction between the specific and the general. As I said, I may be atypical, but I'm certainly insensitive!

I hope you'll forgive me.

There's nothing to forgive.

My point, however, still stands: the original poster made some claims that I know from my own experience are not generally true. IOW, my argument was meant to refute the broad-brush statement that we see so frequently about "what's true in America." I can say, without any doubt, that what he said is simply not true in my experience. Atheists and religionists co-exist fairly well in my area - in fact lately, you hear a far more hostile tone in the argument against religion. This is due, I'm sure, to 9/11 and to the ascendency of the "religious" Right in politics, and I can understand it.

I certainly recognize that in some parts of the country atheism would be viewed with extreme suspicion; my only point was to refute the wild rhetoric that gives an impression that this is true in all places and at all times.

I certainly can also understand the closet, as I've been there. The only solution, I found, was to come out, and to face whatever losses occur.

[ 23. July 2007, 12:22: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I certainly can also understand the closet, as I've been there. The only solution, I found, was to come out, and to face whatever losses occur.

I'm glad you found the solution, but I guess its universality depends largely on what one has to lose. For me, the closet is the lesser evil at present, but perhaps there's hope for a New Enlightenment (as per Hitchens). In the mean time, I shall have to remain unforgiven in more ways than one.

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این نیز بگذرد

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ken
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Persecuated for being an atheist? In a modern "western" countr? I don't think I believe it. You're being precious. Poor diddums. Get over it.

[ 23. July 2007, 12:40: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
You're being precious. Poor diddums. Get over it.

Please see my PM.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Quercus
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
I suppose the problem we face, atheists and theists alike, is that, by being 'out', we are labelled in a particular way.

I suppose my situation may be atypical, but I honestly feel it's to my advantage to remain closeted. The reason for this is more that I don't wish to be labelled as an atheist, and associated with what people perceive atheists, as a group, to be like. Of course, there is irony in this reflecting my own prejudice about what atheists are perceived to be like by others!

Atheists have an image problem. Dawkins, for one thing.

<...>

If you doubt this, examine your own assumed opinion of what is a 'typical atheist'.

I thought about this over lunch. I may go and ask an atheist friend about it in due course.

Most of the people I know who are atheists are not hostile, just not interested. One who was reading The God Delusion thought that Dawkins is right but is a bit OTT. FWIW, as a sample of one (but aren't we all) I think most people don't mind what your religion or lack of it is, so long as it isn't waved in their faces. (Which is why I'm intrigued as to what your circumstances are - not asking, incidentally - I'm happy to take your position on trust).

As to 'coming out' at work, in a rather cowardly fashion I arranged things so that my vicar rang me at work one day, knowing that our receptionist would drop the fact into office gossip. So everyone knows without me telling them. Spineless, moi? [Hot and Hormonal]

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"I meant," said Iplsore bitterly, "what is there in this world that makes living worthwhile?"

Death thought about it. CATS, he said eventually, CATS ARE NICE.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
You're being precious. Poor diddums. Get over it.

Please see my PM.
Please see my reply in the Hell thread. (Which could as easily have been posted here I suppose)

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Mad Geo

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Mad Geo, I wish it were just atheists and fatties who were fair game in America, but to let you in on a little secret, outside of certain right-thinking enclaves, it's gay people too! But I do think you're being a bit histrionic about the level of discrimination faced in America by unbelievers overall. It's just that the Godless are such a negligible minority in America, most people probably don't run across any really serious atheists (maybe Southern Cally's different, of course).

Ah Ah. You missed the caveat. I said last "acceptable" minority to persecute. Gays, blacks, latinos, etc. etc. not only have protections via the law, they have various other entities that make it unacceptable such as the media, and so on. Believe me, I find any persecution of gays, blacks, etc intolerable. I just don't stop looking/fighting intolerance there.

TM,

I didn't say "Nonreligious". I said "ATHEIST". Not at all the same thing. Nonreligious can be agnostics (mostly acceptable to religious folks) or just the "unchurched" to use the nasty Christian term. Not the same at all.

I think DW's account is accurate for some. I have seen it myself. Just because some atheists are not persecuted, just like some blacks/gays/etc. are not persecuted, doesn't mean that it isn't aweful for those that are. I have personally heard threats of firings at atheists by fundie bosses. Makes one real quiet about ones beliefs either way, I can assure you.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
Now I can accept that some people are still prejudiced against atheists and agnostics. I can even accept that some Christians aren't exactly keen on defending the rights of atheists. On the other hand, I don't know if we can say that atheists are being persecuted. ...

Well, given the generally-used definition of "persecution", I'd have to be honest and say no. So we need another word to describe being told over and over, both directly and in public discourse, that you can't possibly have morals or ethics (though you might have absorbed Christian ethics by osmosis), that your promises can't be trusted (saw that one pretty recently, didn't we?), that you get to selfishly do whatever you want or whatever feels good, and that you're an ax murder waiting to happen because you don't believe in God. And then you're gonna burn in Hell! It's not persecution, but here's some other options from the thesaurus: aggravation, annoyance, bedevilment, bother, exasperation, hassle, irking, irritation, molestation, nuisance, perturbation, pestering, provocation, provoking, torment, trouble, vexation, vexing.

A friend of mine went home for the Christmas holidays and told her family she wasn't a Christian any more. Her sister's response? She said "I just feel like I don't know who you are any more" and didn't say a word to her for the rest of the visit. [Roll Eyes] OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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I find "bedevilment" humorously ironic.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I'll put my hand up and say I don't see any persecution (right-side of Pond) - up to and including Christians can't own and operate a TV station but atheists can, Catholics can't marry an heir to the throne of the UK but atheists can. Atheists can affirm in court rather then swear on any holy book, become members of the police, the judiciary, the armed services, members of Parliament, upper and lower houses, own their own home and withdraw their children from RE lessons.

So no, not really.

To be fair, what Brits really object to is someone holding strong opinions and then insisting on talking about them. Thus Steven Green and Richard Dawkins are equally reviled.

Data point: I had to 'come out' at Greenbelt as going to a ConEvo church. Which amused a gay friend enormously.

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by dogwonderer:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
You're being precious. Poor diddums. Get over it.

Please see my PM.
Please see my reply in the Hell thread. (Which could as easily have been posted here I suppose)
Kindly keep it there. Don't drag in issues from a Hell thread here. For the record, ken, your remark was personal attack as well as getting over personal.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Birdseye

I can see my house from here!
# 5280

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I think that anyone who affiliates themselves quite evidently and visibly with a particular group is liable to violent opposition by members of groups with opposing views.
Eg: Liverpool supporters at a football match may be attacked by violent supporters of opposing teams.
Anti-hunt demonstrators at hunts may be attacked by pro-hunting supporters.
Rainbow-clad gay-rights campaigners may be attacked by homophobic thugs.
Smokers lighting up in public may be attacked by anti-smoking campaigners.
People visibly from ethnic minorities may be attacked by racist thugs.
Even pretty or apparently wealthy girls will draw attacks from groups of less pretty or at least less secure girls.

The thing is, in all of these situations, people belong obviously to a group -the only people to escape persecution are people possessing no apparent views or discernably belonging to any group, but in most situations, it's enough to conform to a mainstream appearance and viewpoint and to hide any obvious differences, in order to avoid most persecution.

So the question is - are 'atheists' a group? Do they subscribe to a particular set of practices or hold a uniformed set of beliefs?
Can you spot an atheist by their behaviour? Sadly you can't even spot a Christian by their behaviour nine times out of ten -so I sincerely doubt whether an atheist individual is easier to spot!

So an atheist is an individual -and aside from institutionalised atheism in communist countries (where religion is persecuted) should be as hard to spot on sight as someone with a peanut allergy or a fondness for black and white movies.

However, hard as it is to identify one,it is STILL possible to persecute an atheist because of their views if you place an individual under aggressive scrutiny, draw out their opposing views and attack them -not in the spirit of lively discussion but in the spirit of fascist bullying... you can find SOMETHING in everyone to persecute if you are unkind enough.

there is another side to this though -in that part of being a Christian calls us all to share the Christian message with everybody, indiscriminately -but not thoughtlessly or heavy-handedly. So people who don't believe in God may become tired or irritated by the number of conversations that they end up having with Christians about God... but though they might end up weary or grumpy, and should feel challenged -as Christians feel constantly challenged by the values of the world, they certainly shouldn't feel
'persecuted'...

Better to have views that you care about and get heated about than to avoid persecution.

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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
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Yep. I agree fully with what Birdseye said.

FWIW.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Birdseye:
I think that anyone who affiliates themselves quite evidently and visibly with a particular group is liable to violent opposition by members of groups with opposing views.
Eg: Liverpool supporters at a football match may be attacked by violent supporters of opposing teams.
Anti-hunt demonstrators at hunts may be attacked by pro-hunting supporters.
Rainbow-clad gay-rights campaigners may be attacked by homophobic thugs.
Smokers lighting up in public may be attacked by anti-smoking campaigners.
People visibly from ethnic minorities may be attacked by racist thugs.
Even pretty or apparently wealthy girls will draw attacks from groups of less pretty or at least less secure girls.

The thing is, in all of these situations, people belong obviously to a group -the only people to escape persecution are people possessing no apparent views or discernably belonging to any group, but in most situations, it's enough to conform to a mainstream appearance and viewpoint and to hide any obvious differences, in order to avoid most persecution.

So the question is - are 'atheists' a group? Do they subscribe to a particular set of practices or hold a uniformed set of beliefs?
Can you spot an atheist by their behaviour? Sadly you can't even spot a Christian by their behaviour nine times out of ten -so I sincerely doubt whether an atheist individual is easier to spot!

So an atheist is an individual -and aside from institutionalised atheism in communist countries (where religion is persecuted) should be as hard to spot on sight as someone with a peanut allergy or a fondness for black and white movies.

However, hard as it is to identify one,it is STILL possible to persecute an atheist because of their views if you place an individual under aggressive scrutiny, draw out their opposing views and attack them -not in the spirit of lively discussion but in the spirit of fascist bullying... you can find SOMETHING in everyone to persecute if you are unkind enough.

there is another side to this though -in that part of being a Christian calls us all to share the Christian message with everybody, indiscriminately -but not thoughtlessly or heavy-handedly. So people who don't believe in God may become tired or irritated by the number of conversations that they end up having with Christians about God... but though they might end up weary or grumpy, and should feel challenged -as Christians feel constantly challenged by the values of the world, they certainly shouldn't feel
'persecuted'...

Better to have views that you care about and get heated about than to avoid persecution.

I don't agree entirely. It is probably true that every time a member of a "group" draws fire from anyone outside the "group" they feel persecuted. It is just possible that they could be acting the fool and more than that, doing so to a greater extent than they would if they did not identify themselves with a group, perhaps mistakenly, thinking that membership of some group entitles them to a better hearing or even protection.

It doesn't. You are still You. If you do something stupid and/or evil, it will be recognised as such. Far from membership of the group protecting you, it will reflect badly on the group.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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So, if a person has the potential to be persecuted for beliefs (or anti-beliefs) under birdseye's post, and has reason to stay "in the closet" about it, isn't that "persecuted"?

I guarantee I know of one place where the equation is as follows:

Admit your an atheist = Lose your job.

And it's a geologic consulting firm, not a church-related job.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I guarantee I know of one place where the equation is as follows:

Admit your an atheist = Lose your job.

And it's a geologic consulting firm, not a church-related job.

So why is that firm not bust through all the legal fees it has to spend defending its antedeluvian employment practices?

Or is not illegal in the US to discriminate on these grounds? - because it certainly is in the UK, and I'm rather assuming it is anywhere in the EU.

(Geez, we don't even get to sack vicars who become atheists...)

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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It's most definitely illegal in the US too (Civil Rights Act of 1964). Not that that means it never happens.

And if (as is the case with several consulting firms I know of) the staff are not technically employees but "independent contractors," they might have less protection.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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<tangent>
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So why is that firm not bust through all the legal fees it has to spend defending its antedeluvian employment practices?

Because you can't afford a lawyer when you're unemployed. Because suing a former employer interferes with finding a new job. Because "reason for leaving: religious discrimination, lawsuit pending" looks bad on a resume. All sorts of reasons, unfortunately. OliviaG
</tangent>

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38

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MadGeo wrote
quote:
I guarantee I know of one place where the equation is as follows:

Admit your an atheist = Lose your job.

And it's a geologic consulting firm, not a church-related job.

That's disgraceful of them.

Which is this firm? This is the same line of business that I spent many years in and alongside. I reckon my stock is still sufficient to carry some clout (though I left it a couple of years ago). Please let me know, either here or by PM if you feel that a public forum is inappropriate. I may well be able to do more than those currently still employed in the business - but in any event if an injustice has been done and there is something - anything - I can do to help towards rectifying it, let me know.

Thanks
Ian

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Anglo-Cthulhic

Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
]Because you can't afford a lawyer when you're unemployed.

That's what trade unions are for.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
]Because you can't afford a lawyer when you're unemployed.

That's what trade unions are for.
The situation is much different in the United States, ken. These are stats from the last century, but the overall picture is accurate: http://www.demographia.com/lm-unn99.htm
Furthermore, anyone who is a consultant or contract employee is highly unlikely to be covered by a collective agreement. If a business has less than a certain number of employees, equal employment laws don't even apply: http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_coverage.html
OliviaG

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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[Killing me]

A friend of mine was just fucked over by her place of work (hospital). They actually reduced her rate of pay, retro-fucking-actively. Took it from her check. I said "won't the Union help you? I mean WTF are they there for, right?"

The union she had been in said that they didn't deal in "individual" issues like that, in spite of the fact that she had to pay dues to the motherfuckers. She gave notice and now works at a non-governmental hospital. She says she will never work for the government again much less a Union. But we digress.

I appreciate the offer Honest Ron, really. I no longer work there. Suffice it to say it was enlightening at the time (although my faith in humans doesn't leave much room for surprise). The owner was a real swinging dick and he was much more subtle and devious about how he got rid of people. But I heard what I heard straight from the horses mouth. He had a whole list of people he would terminate, gays and atheists to name two. Of course he would never likely be caught, or at least all he would pay would be unemployment.

The point is not that he and his type get away with it. They always will, more or less. It is that there are people out there that think this way (at least in America). They are not the minority in America, I suspect, and that prejudicial behaviour by employers, and (some) obnoxious Christians, keeps many atheists in the closet.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38

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OK, MadGeo, but the offer stands.

People who swing their dicks sometimes find electric fences in the most unexpected places - if you see what I mean.

Ian

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Anglo-Cthulhic

Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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I do. The Big Swingin Dick got his a while ago through a number of lawsuits over other issues. BSDs sometimes get theirs. I learned a lot from him, ironically. But part of that learning was in how not to be an asshole as a manager.

I think it is very relevent that religious people the world over exercise all kinds of persecution, most notably but not limited to family members that change religion but also that drop religion. I think that atheism is fortunate that it does have fighters in it that will stand up and say "Screw you and your silly ideas" and do it well enough to make the NY Times bestseller lists. But that doesn't make it less unpleasant to the athiests that do get fired, or ostracized, or preached at, etc. etc.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
I think it is very relevent that religious people the world over exercise all kinds of persecution, most notably but not limited to family members that change religion but also that drop religion.

I still think you could insert "X" for "religion", where X = any strongly-held belief. So whilst I'm not disagreeing with you, I've really not found that atheists are, as the OP asks, subject to any systematic persecution.

And I do think there is a considerable Pond difference here - I'm simply boggled not only that a secular employer would discriminate in such a crude way, but that he gets away with it.

(Of course, I'd cut my kids off without a penny if either of them became Tories...)

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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Oh, I imagine that he will have to pay out someday on something he says or does stupid. His "Cowboy" era is drawing to somewhat of a close.

It is a significant difference that I perceive that we are truly business-friendly over here. The American Dream empowers a lot of good and bad behaviour to try to get ahead. I have worked for the full specturm of bosses over the years. Ragin yelling assholes, and New Age Zen Layed Back types (current employer). Both ends are interesting to work for and have their lessons to be learned.

As we are an "At will" state, it is possible for employers to fire you, or for you to quit, for almsot any reason. Sure they can't fire you based on race, religion, blah blah blah, but who's to say if they don't say? If I wanted to fire someone for being an atheist, I would set them up, or try to get them to leave, or simply wait a while, and then fire them. It's not hard.
Not that I would do that to anyone, personally. But I know how to do it, having been a manager. No one is perfect.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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FWIW, the EEO folks recently found that a medical clinic in our area was, in all likelihood, guilty of discrimination against a couple of employees who were not sufficiently religious. Here's the story. (The story from our local paper, which had more details, is no longer in the free archive.)

I don't know whether the employees were atheists, agnostics, or simply "unchurched," but I found the story disturbing.

Particularly since one of Littlest One's specialists is a physician with them. He's not one we see often, but nor is he one we can do without. I'm afraid this news could end up tainting our relationship, though. I'm not comfortable doing business with people who discriminate.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Mad Geo

Ship's navel gazer
# 2939

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Well, ironically, God Bless You.

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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"

Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Doubts have been raised (by people who are not atheists) that atheists are, in fact, persecuted. I have said in all honesty on this thread that it's truly my belief that it would be a disadvantage for me to be open about my atheism. This has, astonishingly, been disputed by people who know nothing whatsoever of my situation. My genuine disinclination to be ‘out’ as an atheist has been prejudicially dismissed as ‘precious’, ‘histrionic’, ‘ridiculous’, ‘particularly stupid’, ‘extremely silly’, and ‘absurd’. By my posts on this thread, I have been accused of ‘playing victim’ and, repeatedly, of ‘whining’.

To answer the OP, I don't know if atheists are persecuted as a group, but I feel at least one certainly has been, individually.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged



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