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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Confession
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I'll pray for the poor oppressed Anglicans, whose deacons cannot bless and whose faithful have no right to a grille.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I can see why Anglicans would want a grille, or would want to confess to a priest they don't know. Several factors:
1) Anglican priests usually stay around for quite a bit longer than RC priests
2) Anglican priests may have spouses (someone with whom they might potentially share everything, even though one should trust that they don't)
3) Anglican priests may have children with whom you are friends--it might be awkward to confess to the parent of one of your friends
4) It's a safe bet that Anglican priests do not receive the volume of confessions as their RC counterparts, giving them less "in the trenches" experience
5) Roman Catholic priests are easy to think of as "otherworldly" because of their celibacy and a general perception of detachment from worldly concerns
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I would have thought that to be good Anglicans there would have to be a confessional box in order to comply with the 39 Articles .....
... you know, the "Sacraments were not by Christ's ordinance to be gazed upon" ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
Our local tat-shack does confessions in the chapel, with the priest sitting on a chair on one side of the rail and the penitent kneeling on the other side. I believe they provide you with a card as to the form.
The priest sits in profile, so isn't looking directly at the penitent.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I almost always use the kneeler and grill, although from time to time I'll sit in the chair across from and face to face with the priest. At the Cathedral in Atlanta there was one confessional and two reconciliation rooms. Even then, there would often be a fourth priest sitting just inside the altar. I've used that option too. I do think that there is some merit in what I understand the Orthodox method: the penitent faces a crucifix or icon.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Sorry for the double post. What I really hate is when the priest forgets to switch the green light to a red light. (Or the automatic system is not working.) This is often the case at St Patrick's. One can open the confessional door over which there is a green light and find someone kneeling. Hopefully one would block out anything heard.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
At both my churches (London and Home) we have "Reconciliation Rooms"
In my London Church it's two converted confessionals made into one room (with a gift shop in the remaining confessional) and you know that it's free because the priest leaves the door open when he's waiting for somebody, or he goes and sits in a pew with his Daily Office.
At my Somerset church there is frosted glass at the bottom of a window and clear glass at the top so you can see who's in there.
At both churches, The Eucharistic Celebration starts late because of queues for Confession.
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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cor ad cor loquitur
Shipmate
# 11816
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Posted
I have confessed in boxes, in a church facing the altar with the priest standing beside me, in reconciliation rooms, in priests' offices and once just over the halfway point on a 10k run with a priest.
In London, I generally go to Westminster Cathedral. I normally don't get there otherwise, and it's a lovely place to spend a bit of time. The queue is usually just long enough for prayer, reflection and examination of conscience; then it's into the confessional, out again, and time for thanksgiving in the blessed sacrament chapel.
Some people seek out confessors who give you a "spiritual scrubbing"; you will find them in good supply at the Brompton Oratory.
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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)
Posts: 1332 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
I suppose, could adopt this as a personal discipline ... but this is clearly not where the "mainstream" of Anglican belief and practice lies, either now or in the past.
Well, yes. There are CofE churches with confessional boxes (I think All Saint's Margaret Street has one) but they are few and far between even in Anglo-Catholic churches, and entirely unknown in other flavours. Personal sacramental confession, with or without kiosks, is a very rare and historically recent reintrodcution from Rome.
Even the sort of "spiritual director" thing you were talking about is probably a minority practice, maybe a small minority. Likely only clergy in some tradtions, and a few keen lay people with an interest in mysticism or "spirituality". And (from I have heard) it tends to resemble counselling more than confession.
No doubt many Anglicans have discussed their faults with their priest or another minister as part of normal pastoral care and prayer, but that's not qite the same thing.
[ 21. May 2008, 11:02: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
In London, I generally go to Westminster Cathedral. I normally don't get there otherwise, and it's a lovely place to spend a bit of time. The queue is usually just long enough for prayer, reflection and examination of conscience; then it's into the confessional, out again, and time for thanksgiving in the blessed sacrament chapel.
To be honest - Westminster Cathedral can be good if you just "want confession", but it's not very personal and you can get some very odd confessors there sometimes.
Dwayne however is a fantastic confessor so if I know he's going to be there, I'll go see him but otherwise I avoid Westminster in favour of a priest who I know.
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
To be honest - Westminster Cathedral can be good if you just "want confession", but it's not very personal and you can get some very odd confessors there sometimes.
Max
Without getting too personal about it, Max, can you possibly describe a bit more what you have in mind by "some very odd confessors" at WC?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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cor ad cor loquitur
Shipmate
# 11816
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Posted
I, too, am interested in Max's answer about the confessors at the Cathedral.
I'll add, though, that I have come across odd confessors everywhere. Some are terribly rushed: I was once told, "quick, there's a queue, lay it all at the foot of the cross"; some insist that you have not confessed everything and probe relentlessly. Some have particular sins that they ask you about. The penances they assign can vary a lot, as well.
Mostly, though, they are kind and good, pastoral without being sentimental, living icons of Christ in his mercy. Confession is one of the best examples of his saying: my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Because I am forgiven in confession, I am more than ready to forgive any oddities in my confessor; in any event those quirks pale beside the ones I bring into the confessional.
Going back to Josephine's medical analogy: perhaps there is more of a tendency in Orthodoxy for the priest to function as a "GP" or family doctor.
In the Catholic Church roles can be a bit more specialised: some of us go to a confessor for confession, to a spiritual director to work on your prayer, to someone else for theological instruction, and so on. If, as I do, you spend much of the year other than in your home country, it is helpful to be able to go to confession virtually anywhere.
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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)
Posts: 1332 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2006
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Our local tat-shack does confessions in the chapel, with the priest sitting on a chair on one side of the rail and the penitent kneeling on the other side. I believe they provide you with a card as to the form.
The priest sits in profile, so isn't looking directly at the penitent.
My confessor does it the same way, with his chair facing the altar and his back to the penitent. Just to the priest's right on the kneeling cushion across the other side of the rail is the 1979 US BCP, turned to page 447 (Form One of the Reconciliation of a Penitent).
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Personal sacramental confession, with or without kiosks, is a very rare and historically recent reintrodcution from Rome.
Ken,
I think that's a bit of an over-statement. I recall reading recently -- though I can't recall where exactly right at the moment -- that one-on-one confession was practiced by members of the "High Church" party prior to the emergence of the Oxford Movement, and in circles influenced by the Caroline Divines ... I also think the name of Lancelot Andrewes came up.
It's also worth noting -- though, of course he wasn't Anglican -- that Martin Luther affirmed the value of regular one-on-one confession.
But, of course, you are quite right that "sacramental confession" as now practiced by some Anglicans is a post-Oxford Movement development.
DT
[ 21. May 2008, 13:33: Message edited by: Dubious Thomas ]
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
Posts: 979 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
Some have particular sins that they ask you about.
I thought the manuals said not to do this, lest the faithful get any ideas?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
Ken,
I think that's a bit of an over-statement. I recall reading recently -- though I can't recall where exactly right at the moment -- that one-on-one confession was practiced by members of the "High Church" party prior to the emergence of the Oxford Movement, and in circles influenced by the Caroline Divines ... I also think the name of Lancelot Andrewes came up.
Confession is certainly recommended by Hooker, Jeremy Taylor, George Herbert among others; as it is,indeed, in the Book of Common Prayer.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
To be honest - Westminster Cathedral can be good if you just "want confession", but it's not very personal and you can get some very odd confessors there sometimes.
Max
Without getting too personal about it, Max, can you possibly describe a bit more what you have in mind by "some very odd confessors" at WC?
I've been told a few times that the sins I'm confessing don't count as sins and don't need to be confessed.
One priest said "You're a teenager - you're expected to do that"
and I've had to beg for absolution.
I've also had the lay everything down at the cross thing before (which isn't too bad, my regular confessor isn't keen on hearing more than 3 items in a confession and after stops me to "Make a deal*") but I've also had really uninspiring penances and no advice before which kind of doesn't do it for me. Three hail Mary's aren't really that difficult and advice is I think a crucial part of confession, especially when you're struggling with sin.
*Make a deal goes like this
Me: Blah blah blah....
Priest: OK, I get the idea, so here's the deal.. Are you sorry for your sins?
Me: Yes
Priest: That's good, can you try not to sin again
Me: Yes
Priest gives advice and asks if there is any sin that is really important that I wanted to talk about....
Absolution! Woo!
There's an old priest also at Westminster Cathedral who does the wrong sort of penances "Can you say the Holy Rosary in full for every day this week" which I'm sure is very good, but it feels more like punishment more than anything. Penance does not equal Punishment! I believe it's supposed to be able to support us back on our journey to Christ. (Walking on water as my SD puts it)
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Max.,
The Anglican provision for absolution without counsel drives me bonkers. While I can appreciate that some people wish to make a general confession,* it seems to me that if you are opening up, you might as well go the whole hog, otherwise it's just a transaction. (I also am a fan of real-life penances). My confessor always asks me for permission to advise me but I think she's figured out that it's just a formality as far as I'm concerned - I would never say "No."
Perhaps this perspective is bolstered by my Anglicanism. In our tradition, auricular confession is not the only means of obtaining absolution, so if one seeks it out, presumably one wants to hear real feedback. Otherwise why not rely on the General Confession?
*In the sense of not specifying sins, not in the opposite sense customary before ordinations, etc.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
Confession is certainly recommended by Hooker, Jeremy Taylor, George Herbert among others; as it is,indeed, in the Book of Common Prayer.
True, but few members of the Chruch of England do it. Probably none in most parishes.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
I don't know - Confession is making it's way back just not in the same way that we know it.
A lot of my Protestant friends (well... except the Anglo catholic ones who do the same sort of confession that I do) have accountability partners, whom they confess their sins to and their accountability partners give them advice and then they pray together for forgiveness.
My God-daughter said that she sees her accountability partner about once a fortnight... certainly sounds very similar.
My Accountability Partner is the entire office of priesthood as instituted by Jesus himself though! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I've been told a few times that the sins I'm confessing don't count as sins and don't need to be confessed.
One priest said "You're a teenager - you're expected to do that"
and I've had to beg for absolution.Max
If that is a reference to the particular 'sin' I suspect, I was told that the church's teaching on it was wrong! (By a young-sounding RC priest - I know I should have gone to an Anglican priest but sometimes there were things I preferred to say in 'the box'.)
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Personal sacramental confession, with or without kiosks, is a very rare and historically recent reintrodcution from Rome.
Even the sort of "spiritual director" thing you were talking about is probably a minority practice, maybe a small minority.
This is surely because of the Prayer Book tradition of including in every service a quite comprehensive confession.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Perhaps this perspective is bolstered by my Anglicanism. In our tradition, auricular confession is not the only means of obtaining absolution, so if one seeks it out, presumably one wants to hear real feedback. Otherwise why not rely on the General Confession?
I agree. In my experience, at least, some kind of "counsel" has always been given, and I expect it. This is why I think it is best -- at least in the framework of the Anglican approach to confession and absolution -- to confess to a priest who knows you, so that (s)he has a basis upon which to "put the pieces together" in addressing your situation and giving a penance. I know that I would not have got the same kind of constructive feedback I have received at both of my last two Good Friday confessions from a priest who was essentially a stranger.
My one experience confessing to a priest I had never met before (at a cathedral in England, which I won't name) was "okay" -- sacramentally, it "worked," and I was glad to have done it -- but the priest gave rather vague counsel, probably because she had no context into which to place the items on my "list."
LQ also points to an important distinction between the Anglican approach and that of Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Our Prayer Book texts make it very clear that the absolution following the general confession is fully sacramentally valid ("...hath given power and commandment to his Ministers, to declare and pronounce to his people, being penitent, the Absolution and Remission of their sins: He pardoneth and absolveth...."). So, in Anglicanism, there is no absolute need for anyone to make specific one-to-one confession to a priest to be granted absolution.
To go to the trouble of making an individual confession one either has to have decided that the general confession + absolution approach really isn't valid (which it appears some Anglo-Catholics have) OR one must feel that it is helpful (in some way or other) to go that extra step ... and receiving counsel is one element of that helpfulness, I think.
DT
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I've been told a few times that the sins I'm confessing don't count as sins and don't need to be confessed.
One priest said "You're a teenager - you're expected to do that"
and I've had to beg for absolution.Max
If that is a reference to the particular 'sin' I suspect, I was told that the church's teaching on it was wrong! (By a young-sounding RC priest - I know I should have gone to an Anglican priest but sometimes there were things I preferred to say in 'the box'.)
Oh I know a priest who would probably say that the Church is Wrong on a number of issues (especially contraception)
It's worrying when priests like that are set loose, especially when they influence the young because the youth are the church of tomorrow.
Max - who would like to emphasise that Charismatic-Catholicism does not mean Unorthodox Christianity
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
the youth are the church of tomorrow.
Max -
- who would like train to be a youf pastor
Funny. I thought the youth were the Church of today ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Q.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I've been told a few times that the sins I'm confessing don't count as sins and don't need to be confessed. One priest said "You're a teenager - you're expected to do that" and I've had to beg for absolution.
If that is a reference to the particular 'sin' I suspect, I was told that the church's teaching on it was wrong!
If it's a reference to the sin I'm thinking of, a priest once told me that had I been run over by a car on my way to confession that night, I would have gone directly to hell!
The best depiction of confession in the cinema that I've ever seen occurrs in Ken Russel's The Devils, where many of the town women (including nuns) have a crush on the local priest (played by Oliver Reed). The scene goes something like this:
Woman: "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned."
Priest: "But you were just in confession this morning!"
Woman: "Yes, Father, but since then I've committed . . . uh . . . er . . . now what was it?"
Priest: "Well, if you have forgotten, I'm sure that God has also."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I've been told a few times that the sins I'm confessing don't count as sins and don't need to be confessed.
One priest said "You're a teenager - you're expected to do that"
and I've had to beg for absolution.Max
If that is a reference to the particular 'sin' I suspect, I was told that the church's teaching on it was wrong! (By a young-sounding RC priest - I know I should have gone to an Anglican priest but sometimes there were things I preferred to say in 'the box'.)
Oh I know a priest who would probably say that the Church is Wrong on a number of issues (especially contraception)
It's worrying when priests like that are set loose, especially when they influence the young because the youth are the church of tomorrow.
I think the Priest's attitude is quite good in a way. I would of thought that any healthy sense of sin would carry some sort of awareness as to why something is a sin - rather than 'because the church says so'. Certainly an over scrupulous or misplaced idea of what is sinful can be extremely damaging.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I don't know - Confession is making it's way back just not in the same way that we know it.
Is that a bad thing?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I don't know - Confession is making it's way back just not in the same way that we know it.
Is that a bad thing?
Certainly not - although I'm bias as I do think the Office of Priesthood is a much better authority to confess to!
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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ChaliceGirl
Shipmate
# 13656
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Posted
Ok I have another Confession question: when the priest absolves everyone after the general confession during a service, is he/she absolving him/herself self too?
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The Episcopal Church Welcomed Me.
"Welcome home." ++Katharine Jefferts Schori to me on 29Mar2009.
My KJS fansite & chicksinpointyhats
Posts: 710 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Apr 2008
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
I dunno about the general confession in RC practice, save that RC priests say "May almighty God have mercy on us, ..." while their Anglican counterparts can be heard saying "... have mercy on you..." et.c. At least we can draw differences.
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
The Book of Common Prayer includes the following pastoral exhortation:
‘... if there be any of you, who by this means [self–examination, confession and repentance] cannot quiet his own conscience herein, but requireth further comfort or counsel, let him come to me, or to some other discreet and learned Minister of God’s Word, and open his grief, that by the ministry of God’s holy Word he may receive the benefit of absolution, together with ghostly counsel and advice, to the quieting of his conscience, and avoiding of all scruple and doubtfulness.’
It is all very Anglican and Common Worship now has some good Rites of Reconciliation. Although it is slightly un-nerving to be handed what appears to be a large menu when you go to confession.
I have never used a box - but I do not think I have ever made eye contact with the Priest during confession, either.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
Ok I have another Confession question: when the priest absolves everyone after the general confession during a service, is he/she absolving him/herself self too?
In the Anglican tradition, quite possibly. But us Catholics don't have a General Absolution in the Mass (except for the "Deliver us from evil" in the Lord's Prayer which is actually a minor exorcism)
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Hanna May
Apprentice
# 13005
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Posted
I feel sure that I'm about to be told I'm wrong on this. But here goes: I think Catholics do have an absolution at mass - its sometime around the 'Lord have Mercy' bit and the 'I confess'. The priest at my local church makes it abundantly clear in his plain English way that this is a 'sorry for the times when we have turned away from the love of God' and that we are forgiven. As far as I am concerned that is an absolution and I can't remember the last time I went to regular confession. Incidentally, same priest and quite a few others I know, would agree that contraception is not a sin as well as various others that the Catholic Church prescribes. I think that's responsible and thoughtful not dangerous.
HM
Posts: 23 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2007
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Sorry Hannah - but just because your priest says so doesn't mean it's correct. Being an evil convert to the faith, I actually happen to believe that the church teaches truth and I don't think I'm in any position to teach against the church's teaching. Questioning is one thing (and I question the church a lot) but teaching against Church teaching is a very serious thing indeed.
The Confession at mass is a quick "Sorry" for our Sins and the priest simply asks for God to bless and forgive our sins, however it's not an absolution because an absolution calls upon the authority of Christ and his church to bring us to everlasting life.
The absolution is very precise and says "I absolve you of your sins" for a reason, because the priest has the authority to forgive in the Name of Jesus, by the authority of the Church. (John 20:23)
At mass, the priest is not absolving but petitioning God for forgiveness "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all and bring us all to everlasting life. Amen"
It doesn't call upon his office to say that, in fact it's a prayer we should all pray every day. A good petition it is but absolution it is not.
Have a read of this article also.
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Confession is something flexible, like Max says.
I did it once kneeling in a Lady Chapel and it was good. It was my first time and was about a certain issue of ethics. He didn't tell me whether it was good or bad, he simply asked whether the deed made me feel further away from God. I said yes. Now I would say no.
I didn't like the kneeling bit (I had a dodgy knee at the time) so he agreed on doing it sitting down. the Priest was very good. The dividing line between confession and counsel was very blurred though and afterwards we simply met to talk with prayer at the end.
I was lucky to have a good Priest.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Cardinal Pole Vault
Papal Bull
# 4193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Sorry Hannah - but just because your priest says so doesn't mean it's correct. Being an evil convert to the faith, I actually happen to believe that the church teaches truth and I don't think I'm in any position to teach against the church's teaching.
Max
Um.. it's a tough one that though, isn't it?
I mean, there are some that might condier your particualr views on worship to be beyond the parameters of Catholic tradition (or at least stretching the boundaries). The GIRM is church teaching, too.
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"Make tea, not war"
Posts: 986 | From: Insula Tiberina | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hanna May
Apprentice
# 13005
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Sorry Hannah - but just because your priest says so doesn't mean it's correct.
I didn't say that a priest saying it makes it correct. I have my own God given powers of critical thinking and reason. It just happens that my priest friend and I agree.
I question the church a lot) but teaching against Church teaching is a very serious thing indeed.
I'm not sure priest concerned would consider a conversation in the pub to be 'teaching'. Its about having a discussion on equal terms and exchanging points of view. He can't surely be expected to not be honest with his friends about his views on subjects Catholic ?
On the issue of church teaching on contraception; the evidence would seem to be that it is not accepted by the 'faithful'. So some theologians would question whether it is actually a valid church doctrine.
As far as confession is concerned. If an individual is of firm belief in good conscience that contraception is or is not a sin then I would expect a priest to respect that - presumably if the belief is 'not a sin' then it wouldn't arise.
But, if someone is clearly struggling - woman with children who really does not / can't cope with more and who is borderline on contraception then I think that a sympathetic priest might enter into a conversation that encourages her to question whether it really is a sin. I would certainly expect a priest when faced with someone who is with a partner who is HIV + to enter into that conversation in a very serious way and confession might be a good opportunity to do that.
H
[UBB]
[ 22. May 2008, 21:22: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Perhaps you might suggest that your own priest go to confession. With his bishop as confessor.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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cor ad cor loquitur
Shipmate
# 11816
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Posted
Just to expand a bit on Max's point: a Catholic priest can give "general sacramental absolution" but only in truly extreme circumstances: a plane about to go down, for example, or a sinking ship, or a mission setting where hundreds of people want to confess but there is only one priest. See this document from the Vatican for more details.
Outside of those circumstances priests are required to give individual confession and absolution. The confessional prayers at Mass, even the one referring to "absolution" in the extraordinary form (Indulgentiam, absolutionem et remissionem peccatorum nostrorum, tribuat nobis omnipotens et misericors Dominus) aren't the same as the solemn statement of sacramental absolution from the priest.
And, Hanna May, welcome!
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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
Just to expand a bit on Max's point: a Catholic priest can give "general sacramental absolution" but only in truly extreme circumstances: a plane about to go down, for example, or a sinking ship, or a mission setting where hundreds of people want to confess but there is only one priest. ...
A real example of general absolution was during the September 11 attacks. As the firefighters began to ascend the Twin Towers, the RC Chaplin had them pause for a few seconds and gave them all general absolution. Imagining that scene still brings a tear to my eye - and that's a very hard thing to do! The chaplain, Fr. Michael Judge, was killed only a few minutes later.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
NY, I have heard tell that a priest of our mutual acquaintance also offered general absolution to the 9/11 responders, as they passed Immaculate Squashracquet on the way down.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Pole Vault:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Sorry Hannah - but just because your priest says so doesn't mean it's correct. Being an evil convert to the faith, I actually happen to believe that the church teaches truth and I don't think I'm in any position to teach against the church's teaching.
Max
Um.. it's a tough one that though, isn't it?
I mean, there are some that might condier your particualr views on worship to be beyond the parameters of Catholic tradition (or at least stretching the boundaries). The GIRM is church teaching, too.
Erm - Some might, the church actually doesn't however. Any liturgies that I organise I think are within the GIRM.
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Dubious Thomas
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# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
Ok I have another Confession question: when the priest absolves everyone after the general confession during a service, is he/she absolving him/herself self too?
As a layman, I've always assumed that was the case. I'd be interested in hearing from some Anglican priests on what they believe they're doing when they pronounce the general absolution.
DT
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
The time I went to the Latin Novus Ordo mass at St. Margaret Mary in Oakland they had people lined up for confession during the mass. I never heard of such a thing, there's a time for confession but should it be during the mass?
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ChaliceGirl
Shipmate
# 13656
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I can see why Anglicans would want a grille, or would want to confess to a priest they don't know. Several factors:
1) Anglican priests usually stay around for quite a bit longer than RC priests
2) Anglican priests may have spouses (someone with whom they might potentially share everything, even though one should trust that they don't)
3) Anglican priests may have children with whom you are friends--it might be awkward to confess to the parent of one of your friends
4) It's a safe bet that Anglican priests do not receive the volume of confessions as their RC counterparts, giving them less "in the trenches" experience
5) Roman Catholic priests are easy to think of as "otherworldly" because of their celibacy and a general perception of detachment from worldly concerns
Interesting reasons, but none of these reasons are my reasons for wanting to confess anonymously!
I was thinking along the lines of "what if I confess something really embarrasing and personal, i.e. sexual, etc"? I'd be embarrassed to look at my parish priest every Sunday after telling him something of that nature.
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The Episcopal Church Welcomed Me.
"Welcome home." ++Katharine Jefferts Schori to me on 29Mar2009.
My KJS fansite & chicksinpointyhats
Posts: 710 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Apr 2008
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
The time I went to the Latin Novus Ordo mass at St. Margaret Mary in Oakland they had people lined up for confession during the mass. I never heard of such a thing, there's a time for confession but should it be during the mass?
Not only is it allowed, but the confessee may also receive communion at that same mass IIRC, even if they have a mortal sin to confess and they haven't managed to get to that.
Max
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
Just to expand a bit on Max's point: a Catholic priest can give "general sacramental absolution" but only in truly extreme circumstances: a plane about to go down, for example, or a sinking ship, or a mission setting where hundreds of people want to confess but there is only one priest. See this document from the Vatican for more details.
To give another example: the first statue at Gettysberg of a non-General was one of Fr. Corby giving general absolution.
[ 22. May 2008, 23:11: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I usually hear confessions sat inside the communion rail facing east, and the penitent kneels just behind me and slightly to my right, so they can speak into the ear that works properly.
I tend to prefer a box, or the "T" shaped screen affairs that they have at ASMS when I make my confession. I would like to put a box in our new church, but I haven't found the right spot yet.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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