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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is there hope for the Bible Belt?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
What is hard to understand for those outside our culture is that the lost but still glorious cause of yesteryear, is for us second only to Golgatha in its effect...
For Christ's sake (literally) -- are you serious?
Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm the one with the odd idea that history is larger than our own provincial histories and goes in a forward, not a backward, trajectory.
Maybe instead of living into the future I should be sitting here reliving the 30 Years' War over and over and over and over and over again.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Not just you...
I get off the Dixie Express when it's suggested that the Civil War is anywhere close to the Crucifixion.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Lincoln waffled a lot on the question of slavery until he issued the Emancipation Proclamation and finally drove the nail in the coffin of the "Peculiar Institution". The Thirteenth Amendment took care of the bookkeeping, but Union policy was clear from 1863 onward.
FWIW Gen. Sherman was rather a racist and didn't want any black troops in the Army of the Tennessee yet his March to the Sea destroyed the ability of South to supply itself and brought the South to its knees.
[ 09. May 2009, 17:27: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
FWIW Gen. Sherman was rather a racist and didn't want any black troops in the Army of the Tennessee yet his March to the Sea destroyed the ability of South to supply itself and brought the South to its knees.
I don't see a contradiction here. Sherman was acting as a general officer of the American army, under the authority of the POTUS, and was carrying out his military mission irrespective of any personal opinions. That would be SOP wouldn't it?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
other states have more interesting seals, like Virginia ("Sic Semper Tyrannis")
Flag of the Commonwealth of Virginia
quote:
From Wikipedia:
The Flag of the Commonwealth of Virginia consists of the Seal of Virginia against a blue background. The current version of the flag was adopted at the beginning of the American Civil War in 1861. The flag is decorated with a white fringe along the fly. It is the only state flag to contain any form of nudity.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
My early history was that the KKK was, immediately after the War, necessary to defend Southerners against Carpetbaggers when the Yankee forces would not act. It was only later that it became a racist organization. I have never read up on the history of the Klan. I still harbor some romantic thoughts of noble gentlemen defending innocent citizens from unscrupulous Yankee interlopers. Of course, that's not the way the Klan operated.
Concerning state flags, don't get me going. Stick a seal on a blue field is such a piss poor way of designing a flag. Having written words is even worse! so the Barnes monstrosity with all the little flags, the seal, and writing sucked. The current Georgia flag is great except for the small scroll with the motto. New Mexico and Alaska have great flags off the top of my head.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
New Mexico is probably my fave. Arizona and Colorado have good flags too. I'm not quite so totally opposed to the seal and written words thing if they're interesting. I rather like NY's Excelsior flag and the California Republic bear flag. New Yorker, I was hoping you could tell us about the Georgia Barnes flag episode?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
My early history was that the KKK was, immediately after the War, necessary to defend Southerners against Carpetbaggers when the Yankee forces would not act. It was only later that it became a racist organization. I have never read up on the history of the Klan. I still harbor some romantic thoughts of noble gentlemen defending innocent citizens from unscrupulous Yankee interlopers. Of course, that's not the way the Klan operated.
It's been said that the greatest literary invention of the New South was the Old South. The other purpose of the Klan, from its own perspective, was to defend the flower of White Womanhood from the Negro Hordes, since black men's sole reason for existing was to rape white women. That one doesn't get as much play anymore. In reality the main purpose of the Klan and other similar organizations, of course, was to maintain the social system of slavery after its legal existence was no longer possible.
There's a lot of romanticism packed in to what is essentially a terrorist organization.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
My early history was that the KKK was, immediately after the War, necessary to defend Southerners against Carpetbaggers when the Yankee forces would not act. It was only later that it became a racist organization. I have never read up on the history of the Klan. I still harbor some romantic thoughts of noble gentlemen defending innocent citizens from unscrupulous Yankee interlopers. Of course, that's not the way the Klan operated.
That is not far from the truth. It was started in Pulaski Tennessee by Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest in 1866. (And he was a deeply racist SOB by all accounts.) The original intent was, as you said, to provide some measure of extra-legal protection for disenfranchised whites who could get no legal protection from the Carpetbaggers and Scalawags (Southerners who collaborated with the Carpetbaggers). This original Klan pretty much died out after the official end of Reconstruction in 1877.
The current Klan was born about 1915, and had no such practical or "romantic" purpose. FWIW, the largest Klan ever was in the 1920s, in Indiana. The Imperial Wizard was also the state governor, or so I have heard.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Well, this has been a highly successful thread, but is there anything left besides assorted tangents?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
FWIW Gen. Sherman was rather a racist and didn't want any black troops in the Army of the Tennessee yet his March to the Sea destroyed the ability of South to supply itself and brought the South to its knees.
I don't see a contradiction here. Sherman was acting as a general officer of the American army, under the authority of the POTUS, and was carrying out his military mission irrespective of any personal opinions. That would be SOP wouldn't it?
Opposition to slavery does not imply a belief in racial equality. It simply means that they don't think humans should own other humans. I'm guessing very few abolitionists believed in racial equality.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
I'm guessing very few abolitionists believed in racial equality.
That's pretty much a (late) 20th Century notion. Alas.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
New Mexico is probably my fave. Arizona and Colorado have good flags too. I'm not quite so totally opposed to the seal and written words thing if they're interesting. I rather like NY's Excelsior flag and the California Republic bear flag. New Yorker, I was hoping you could tell us about the Georgia Barnes flag episode?
How could I forget South Carolina's flag. So simple and very beautiful and full of Revolutionary War heritage.
Here is where you can read about the Barnes' flag episode.
I was living in Georgia at the time. The 1956 flag, with the Confederate Battle Flag, was opposed most vocally by those outside of Georgia. In Georgia itself it seemed to be the white liberals who really raised any voice at all. In my neighborhood it was trendy to fly the pre-56 flag. I, of course, did not. Nor did I fly the 56 flag.
The issue had died down and was not on the front burner, when, early one morning, I think it was a Monday, without any advance warning, Gov Barnes appeared in the House with a mock-up of his really ugly flag. Within a day or two a bill to adopt it had been rammed through the legislature.
The howls of protest were impressive - both from the defenders of the 56 flag and those who wanted a new flag but objected to the high handed railroading that was going on.
Barnes lost reelection because of this. Purdue beat him by promising to adopt a new flag. The 56 supporters thought he go back to it. He really pissed them off by holding hearings and coming up with the current flag.
I think, and I think most Georgians think, that all is well that ends well. There are still lots of 56 flags flying on private property and I think Purdue's law requires the Battle Flag to be flown on one or two Confederate holidays over the capital.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
I'm guessing very few abolitionists believed in racial equality.
As opposed to whom? Better to not believe in racial equality and abolish slavery than to not believe in racial equality and not abolish slavery. They paved the way for racial equality (which is a goal we still haven't quite attained).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Thanks, New Yorker. BTW, I've reconsidered my earlier praise of the Colorado flag and am withdrawing that praise (must have been a sentimental reaction from having lived there). However, Maryland has unquestionably a great flag with a cool, historically relevant design, no seal, no tiresome blue field, and no writing. OTOH, Arkansas has one of the ugliest!
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
That is not far from the truth. It was started in Pulaski Tennessee by Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest in 1866. (And he was a deeply racist SOB by all accounts.) The original intent was, as you said, to provide some measure of extra-legal protection for disenfranchised whites who could get no legal protection from the Carpetbaggers and Scalawags (Southerners who collaborated with the Carpetbaggers). This original Klan pretty much died out after the official end of Reconstruction in 1877.
That's right. For instance, southern whites were "disenfranchised" when black Southerners were allowed to vote alongside them, but luckily the Klan was available to provide the massacres and intimidation the Reconstruction government wouldn't. Likewise, the Klan helpfully provided assassinations of politicians unfairly elected by black votes, and was able to run off teachers or other professionals unfairly foisted on the Southern states, largely for the benefit of the newly freed slaves. And they were even willing to stand up to the massive injustice of having armed blacks serving in militias! Such heroes!
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
The current Klan was born about 1915, and had no such practical or "romantic" purpose. FWIW, the largest Klan ever was in the 1920s, in Indiana. The Imperial Wizard was also the state governor, or so I have heard.
Actually the current incarnation of the Klan is more like the fourth go-around than the second. The first incarnation of the Klan pretty much died out because of their own success. The implementation of segregation laws and Jim Crow had pretty much achieved all their goals. The second Klan was dealt a severe blow with the Stephenson conviction and mostly dried up sometime during Second World War as national energies were devoted elsewhere. The third incarnation started in the Fifties to counter the nascent Civil Rights movement and declined severely following FBI investigations in the Sixties. Although somewhat dormant today (even other racist groups think the Klan are a bunch of hicks), like a lot of similar organizations there's been an uptick of interest in the Klan lately for some mysterious reason.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
]That's right. For instance, southern whites were "disenfranchised"
The rest of your post notwithstanding, Southern white men (women still didn't have the vote back then) were by law disenfranchised, as in they were not legally citizens with the right to vote. This was a consequence of having unsuccessfully taken up arms against the federal government.
Of course, the right to vote could be restored to most of them by signing a loyalty oath. But many of them would rather die (and quite a few did) before doing so.
My Great granduncle Thomas (Cpl, 30th Tenn Inf. Co. F) was a case in point. As late as 1896, he still had not done so. When he died in 1912, I am sure he was still in a legal state of rebellion.
[ETA: I guess he still harbored a grudge against the Y*nkees for shooting off his left arm at Chickamauga.]
[ 09. May 2009, 21:56: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Seraphim
Shipmate
# 14676
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Posted
For what it is worth in hopes of correcting certain errant bits of public perception, here is a link to a post war interview with Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest whom some credit with the establishment of the Klan in its first incarnation, the klan as it existed before being reconstituted on different philosophical lines by Forrest's grandson some years later: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interview_with_Nathan_Bedford_Forrest
With respect to the War and its effects with Golgatha, as a matter of psychology, yes I do mean it very much. It was felt as a profound loss in a righteous cause, a dark day, a triumph of evil, a Golgotha surely would have been absent the resurrection. The southerner of that time in the devastation of the war, the massive loss of life of friends and family, and the added humiliations of the reconstruction generated a quiet but grim resurrectional longing for the south to rise again.
I suppose you could look upon it as an example/variation of cultural chillianism.
With respect to Rebellion: The South did not rebel. I voluntarily left a union that it had voluntarily joined. It has been cast as a rebellion, but it was not so. Rather it was the resistance of a new nation against those who would deny her own just sovereignty.
With respect to the southern Mythos: One of the interesting, if too often unnoticed things about the southern myth is that to a large extent it came true. It began as a mythic aspiration in the first well landed settlers into post colonial territories which within a generation or two managed a significant degree or realization. The plantation ideal pragmatically speaking was not far removed form from that of old English manors...just with a big house instead of a small castle or tower, slaves instead of serfs, and lots of linen and gaberdine instead of chain mail and steel plate.
With respect to Southern Religion: It should be remembered that the Episcopalian C****h had a very active presence in Old South. Nothing of the purported Baptist anti-socialist ideation there. Indeed puritanism very often equated with moneygrubbing in the southern mind. The southern ideal was aristocratic and full of social rituals, but it also encouraged personal responsibility even if it did not encourage the pursuit of money as an end in itself. What was admired was self-sufficiency. So liturgicality was not foreign to the ethos of the South. It's poet laureate, Fr. Abram Joseph Ryan was a Catholic priest from around Mobile.
this classic post war poem of his may serve shed some light about how the experience of the Civil War, the Confederacy have shaped the Southern mind and its perceptions, especially with respect to its flags.
Furl that Banner, for 'tis weary;
Round its staff 'tis drooping dreary;
Furl it, fold it, it is best;
For there's not a man to wave it,
And there's not a sword to save it,
And there's not one left ot lave it
In the blood which heroes gave it;
And its foes now scorn and brave it;
Furl it, hide it --let it rest!
Take that Banner down! 'tis tattered;
Broken is its staff and shattered;
And the valiant hosts are scattered
Over whom it floated high.
Oh! 'tis hard for us to fold it;
Hard to think there's non to hold it;
Hard that those who once unrolled it
Now must furl it with a sigh.
Furl that Banner! furl it sadly!
Once ten thousands hailed it gladly,
And ten thousands wildly, madly,
Swore it should forever wave;
Swore that foeman's sword should never
Hearts like theirs entwined dissever,
Till that flag should float forever
O'er their freedom or their grave!
Furl it! for the hands that grasped it,
And the hearts that fondly clasped it,
Cold and dead are lying low;
And that banner --it is trailing!
While around it sounds the wailing
Of its people in their woe.
For, though conquered, they adore it!
Love the cold, dead hands that bore it!
Weep for those who fell before it!
Pardon those who trailed and tore it!
But, oh! wildly they deplore it,
Now who furl and fold it so.
Furl that Banner! True, 'tis gory,
Yet 'tis wreathed around with glory,
And 'twill live in song and story,
Though its folds are in the dust:
For its fame on brightest pages,
Penned by poets and by sages,
Shall go sounding down the ages--
Furl its folds though now we must.
Furl that Banner, softly, slowly!
Treat it gently --it is holy--
For it droops above the dead.
Touch it not --unfold it never,
Let it droop there, furled forever,
For its people's hopes are dead!
[ 09. May 2009, 22:04: Message edited by: Seraphim ]
Posts: 354 | From: Hattiesburg, MS | Registered: Mar 2009
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
The "tiresome blue fields" referred to above are most likely tributes to Union veterans, whose regimental colors (as opposed to National colors) during the War of the Rebellion/Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression typically bore dark blue fields.
I am with LutheranChik, however, in her Heimatskrankeit comment -- last night my wife made Kartoffelnsalat and it nearly got me to singing about schoene Baden, und so weiter, und so weiter.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
All I can say is, if those rumors of Texas seceding ever come true, I may immigrate.
Don't hold your breath (or do ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphim:
Furl that Banner, for 'tis weary;
Round its staff 'tis drooping dreary;
Furl it, fold it, it is best;
For there's not a man to wave it,
And there's not a sword to save it,
And there's not one left ot lave it
In the blood which heroes gave it;
And its foes now scorn and brave it;
Furl it, hide it --let it rest!
Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore".
Take that Banner down! 'tis tattered;
Broken is its staff and shattered;
And the valiant hosts are scattered
Over whom it floated high.
Oh! 'tis hard for us to fold it;
Hard to think there's non to hold it;
Hard that those who once unrolled it
Now must furl it with a sigh.
Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore".
Furl that Banner! furl it sadly!
Once ten thousands hailed it gladly,
And ten thousands wildly, madly,
Swore it should forever wave;
Swore that foeman's sword should never
Hearts like theirs entwined dissever,
Till that flag should float forever
O'er their freedom or their grave!
Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore".
Furl it! for the hands that grasped it,
And the hearts that fondly clasped it,
Cold and dead are lying low;
And that banner --it is trailing!
While around it sounds the wailing
Of its people in their woe.
Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore".
For, though conquered, they adore it!
Love the cold, dead hands that bore it!
Weep for those who fell before it!
Pardon those who trailed and tore it!
But, oh! wildly they deplore it,
Now who furl and fold it so.
Furl that Banner! True, 'tis gory,
Yet 'tis wreathed around with glory,
And 'twill live in song and story,
Though its folds are in the dust:
For its fame on brightest pages,
Penned by poets and by sages,
Shall go sounding down the ages--
Furl its folds though now we must.
Furl that Banner, softly, slowly!
Treat it gently --it is holy--
For it droops above the dead.
Touch it not --unfold it never,
Let it droop there, furled forever,
For its people's hopes are dead!
Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore"!
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
All I can say is, if those rumors of Texas seceding ever come true, I may immigrate.
That would be a neat trade I'd happily support.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
All I can say is, if those rumors of Texas seceding ever come true, I may immigrate.
Don't hold your breath (or do ).
Texas could actually do it. The state that should really think about leaving the union is Minnesota. They pay far more in taxes than they receive in federal funding (at least according the numbers I found on the internet).
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Let's keep dear old Texas around until we've sucked all the oil out of the fields off her coast, at least.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I've been there. It's just a bunch of freeways, Del Tacos, and muffler shops.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
The state that should really think about leaving the union is Minnesota. They pay far more in taxes than they receive in federal funding (at least according the numbers I found on the internet).
Statistically, don't about half the states do that?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I've been there. It's just a bunch of freeways, Del Tacos, and muffler shops.
Zach
Yeah, spread the word will ya? The beach is too crowded as it is with people drawn to our, uh, muffler shops.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Maryland's flag is inappropriate. It simply the arms of the Baltimore (Calvert) family. It is like using the British royal banner as the national flag of the UK. That practice died out years ago. It is a pretty flag, though.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
The rest of your post notwithstanding . . .
"Yes, but aside from all that what did you think of the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphim:
For what it is worth in hopes of correcting certain errant bits of public perception, here is a link to a post war interview with Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest whom some credit with the establishment of the Klan in its first incarnation, the klan as it existed before being reconstituted on different philosophical lines by Forrest's grandson some years later: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interview_with_Nathan_Bedford_Forrest
I've always thought it imprudent to blindly accept the words of the founders of terrorist organizations at face value with regard to that group's activities. One of the more interesting things about that interview is that Forrest denies that the large group of masked and heavily armed men who lynched S.A. Bierfield were Klansmen. How would he know this if he was not a member of the Klan, as he asserted in the interview? If he truly had conducted an investigation that provided him with satisfactory answers, why didn't he turn over the guilty to the authorities? And why does he consider the death of Lawrence Bowman, a black man lynched alongside Bierfield not worthy of mention? Is it because lynching a white (though Jewish) man was bad public relations in a way that lynching black man wasn't? This interview seems a classic example of what became known by the late twentieth century as "spin doctoring".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
The Klan never made it down here, not in any big way. They want to get rid of Catholics, too, and there's too many here for the stupid degenerates to really take hold.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
They've been a bigger presence in some of the more northly areas of your state, however
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Well, isn't one connotation simply that of being a rebel? In that truculant sense it could surely be found attractive to certain persons anywhere.
Yes. That is how I typically seeing it flown. It appears to often be a "look at me, I'm raising hell" sign. It seems if one was any good at it, he wouldn't need a sign.
The last time I saw anyone carrying it was about six or seven years ago when HK Edgerton, a local black southern heritage activist, was standing in front of my kids' middle school for a couple or three weeks protesting the principal from the north telling a kid he couldn't wear a t-shirt with the flag on it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Maryland's flag is inappropriate. It simply the arms of the Baltimore (Calvert) family. It is like using the British royal banner as the national flag of the UK. That practice died out years ago. It is a pretty flag, though.
It's a beautiful flag, actually it's the Calvert and
Crossland families. the black and gold are from Lord Calvert, the red and white from the Crosslands, it's very graphic and contemporary looking. It reminds me of the Palio neigborhood flags from Sienna. I like those too.
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Thank you for those links, LSK.
So yesterday was Confederate Flag Day in NC? I wonder when it is in NY? I'll have make sure I have mine ready to run up the pole!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Thank you for those links, LSK.
So yesterday was Confederate Flag Day in NC? I wonder when it is in NY? I'll have make sure I have mine ready to run up the pole!
So if you have Confederate Flag Day do you really ALSO need whatever Confederate holiday Jan. 20th is? How many holidays are needed to "honor your heritage"?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Now, don't be churlish, Cliffdweller. I doubt that any of these get very widely observed and they are at the behest of the individual states anyway.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Thank you for those links, LSK.
So yesterday was Confederate Flag Day in NC? I wonder when it is in NY? I'll have make sure I have mine ready to run up the pole!
So if you have Confederate Flag Day do you really ALSO need whatever Confederate holiday Jan. 20th is? How many holidays are needed to "honor your heritage"?
How's about 365 with an extra every four years?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Now, don't be churlish, Cliffdweller. I doubt that any of these get very widely observed and they are at the behest of the individual states anyway.
I wasn't being churlish, it was an honest question. An earlier poster had suggested that the institution of MLK Day was a deliberate attempt to squelch a pre-existing Confederate Day celebration on that date. Now that we learn there is another occasion-- Confederate Flag day-- I am wondering if it really is necessary to have two separate holidays to "honor the heritage" of the Confederacy, or if one might be enough. Honest question, and wholly separate from the issue of which states would chose to participate in those holidays and who they might be observed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I've never heard of Confederate Flag day, a day that doesn't exist in the only nominally Southern State I've lived in as an adult. How many Americans know when Flag Day is or even heard of the day (which isn't a federal holiday)?
I actually think that Southern states could have several of these occasions, but not as full state holidays (with paid leave and all). Who cares? At some point when I have enough time, I may write a lengthier post on my view of all this.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I never heard of Confederate Flag Day, but then I'd never heard of the holiday supposedly supplanted by MLK day. I too have no objection to Southern states' taking how ever many days they want to "celebrate their heritage". My point was in response to another poster who was opining that MLK day was inaugurated as a deliberate attempt to squelch some pre-existing Confederate holiday.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
I think (and I may not remember this correctly) that when the MLK Federal holiday was enacted it coincided with an already existing Lee holiday in some states.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I actually think that Southern states could have several of these occasions, but not as full state holidays (with paid leave and all). Who cares? At some point when I have enough time, I may write a lengthier post on my view of all this.
Who cares if a big chunk of the population is made to feel inferior? I mean really.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I think (and I may not remember this correctly) that when the MLK Federal holiday was enacted it coincided with an already existing Lee holiday in some states.
It is simply the coincidence that R E Lee and M L King shared the same birthdate. Nothing more.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I actually think that Southern states could have several of these occasions, but not as full state holidays (with paid leave and all). Who cares? At some point when I have enough time, I may write a lengthier post on my view of all this.
Who cares if a big chunk of the population is made to feel inferior? I mean really.
Actually, mousethief, I think that interest and certainly passion around the Lost Cause is going to continually wane. It will hold on longest in the least urbanised areas of the Deep South. In another 50 years of demographic and economic transitions it should have become a relic devoid of malignancy. I think what's likely to be left is a bit of superficial regional colour. I'm sure the racist beast will emit a few more snarls and nasty outbursts of aggression, but it's in its death-throes. The South will be left with good cooking, somewhat attenuated regional accents, an increasing appreciation of the cultural contribution of its African-American population, manners that are generally better than those exhibited in most other parts of the country, and so forth. White dominance in America is at its end, both politically and demographically.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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