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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: What one might consider an adequate reason to leave a church
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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Hi, I'm Wood. You might remember me from a very long time ago. I don't post here much these days, because generally I don't have anything to say that other people can't say better.

But here goes. I have been going to the same church for sixteen years. My children were dedicated there. We have seen a lot of good and bad times there. In the last six or seven years, though, I have become more and more out of step with the church and its teaching. Things that happened at my church while I was not there yesterday (I was driving home from a wedding in London Village) led me to talk with Mrs Wood. We made the decision to make the break last night.

I don't believe in church hopping. I have in the past sneered at the sort of people who go to different churches because they don't like the new minister's teaching style, or because the other place has "better worship" (code for "a slightly tighter music group" generally) or because they had an argument with someone.

Churches are, like families, communities full of people whom you must love and tolerate and get infuriated by and infuriate and apologise to and all that.

They are not, I have often considered, things you leave.

So yeah, it took a great deal of time and thought and hand-wringing and navel-gazing and all that emo crap before I was able to say, "that's it."

I expect that some people are going to ask why. Suffice to say that the issue is not important here — it's a bona fide Dead Horse, in fact — but that it boils down to this:

"Could these two dear friends of mine, these faithful Christians who are members of a notionally compatible denomination, be made welcome among the congregation of my church and be allowed to take communion? No? Then I cannot be part of this church anymore."

That's the important part of it. I couldn't be part of a community that excludes other Christians because of who they are.

But the morning after the decision has brought in me all sorts of weird conflicting emotions — I took the pulpit in this church, I gave years of my life to youth work, to children's work, to leading house groups, to working as cleaner and administrator at times, I was baptised there.

Yeah. Sorry. Navel-gazing.

But here's the question and the point. Assuming we're not talking about extreme stuff like your minister doing Chris Brain nonsense or suddenly revealing himself as a Satanist Dennis Wheatley-style or something, but that we're talking about the doctrinal or relational difference that would make you leave behind the church community you had been part of man (or woman) and boy (or girl).

What would be that final straw to make you throw it all away?

[ 26. July 2011, 07:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Narcissism.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Here's a couple of pointers born of my own experience:

a) when Paul's admonition "your meetings do you more harm than good" becomes a personal reality

b) when you no longer feel the church is healthy or safe

c) if you feel you are (or are being pressured to be) more committed to the church, its aims and objectives than to your spouse.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Here's a couple of pointers born of my own experience:

a) when Paul's admonition "your meetings do you more harm than good" becomes a personal reality

b) when you no longer feel the church is healthy or safe

Those two apply to me pretty closely. For years, the main thing I have gotten out of the sermons has been the opportunity to write poetry.

And as for the second. I realised that was true some time ago when I began to worry about what they were teaching my children in Sunday School.

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Narcissism.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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A couple of years back we changed church, which is the first time I've done that for any reason other than moving to the other end of the country. We left the church we'd both fairly recently become members of, where we were married, where the wee man was baptised, where I'd preached and been active in assisting leading worship etc. We left a church where we were very happy with the worship, where we had friends and some fellowship, where we had no real theological issues with the practice and preaching. We left because there was no real provision for kids during the morning worship, and the wee man was declaring "I don't want to go to church".

So, we went to another church in the same denomination a good 20 minute drive away where we knew they had lots of kids and a large Sunday School. We stuck it out for 9 months or so. Long enough for the wee lass to be baptised there. Long enough for me to be invited into the pulpit. Long enough to find that actually having a Sunday School doesn't help much when you're still taking the kids out and so not participating in worship. Long enough to decide that the worship was generally "child appropriate", even after the kids had gone out, and we weren't getting the depth of worship and preaching we wanted. Long enough to find that a 20 minute drive excluded you from practically any participation in the life of the church other than Sunday morning. But, ultimately finding that the children were excluded from Communion and that that was too much.

So, we're now back where we started. Resigned to the fact that if the kids don't want to sit through a service which doesn't specifically accomodate them then one of us has to take them out to the lounge with toys (and service piped through, so at least we sometimes get the chance to hear what's said). Having decided that there's no such thing as a perfect church, we're making a go of the one we're in. I even got myself elected as an Elder. And, they're stupid enough to invite me into the pulpit and (once I've completed a wee training course in a couple of weeks) preside at Communion.

So, in summary - we thought that the lack of specific provision for children in worship was an adequate reason to leave church. Only to find that actually it wasn't. And, then to find that a church excluding people from Communion (especially when each Communion Sunday they used words like "this table is for all who love, or seek to love, the Lord Jesus Christ") was just something we didn't want.

[ 24. January 2011, 09:59: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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"Here I stand. I can do no other".

That sounds tough, Wood. I suspect there are many "adequate reasons" but at the heart of most of them will be an irreconcilable conflict of values. Reconciliation in that context also includes being able to live with differences.

Nonconformists like me have normally had some experience this territory. My wife and I have only been leavers once, but we've been stayers on a number of occasions.

The only general lesson I learned both from my own leaving and the leaving of others was that it is generally better to leave, rather than stay and undermine. Undermining tends to undermine us as well.

There is an irregular verb involved.

"This church accepts a lot of diversity but there are limits.

You do not realise that my criticism is meant to be constructive.

They have always had problems with authority."

Spend some time in the midst of some of that, particularly if you see real hurt being caused to people you know and respect, and the thought which rises almost unbidden is "I don't need this".

Taking the long view, one of the things I have learned is that distance can provide a calmer perspective. Even if, on reflection, the reason for leaving seems less of an imperative than it did at the time (when the wounds were fresh).

Another thing is that it better not to discuss the specifics too much with folks outside the situation. A phrase like "differences of outlook and vision" covers a multitude of sins.

Perhaps finally, whatever the reason, there will be folks who will be sad at your leaving, will want to express regrets and say thanks. Avoiding a hypocritical farewell event is not easy, but on the whole it is best to try and leave with as much goodwill as possible preserved.

I'm not sure if these further generalities are of any help or in any way novel. If not for you, maybe for some others?

(xposted with Alan C and Eutychus)

[ 24. January 2011, 10:00: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, in summary - we thought that the lack of specific provision for children in worship was an adequate reason to leave church. Only to find that actually it wasn't.

That's a really really insightful point.


I'm sitting on this thread, aren't I? I'll stop now for a bit.

[ 24. January 2011, 09:59: Message edited by: Wood ]

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Narcissism.

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five
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Just to be clear, Wood, are you talking about leaving a church, as in the First Church of Springfield, or leaving The Church, as in the Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism?

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And Jesus said 'the greatest commandments are these: Love the Lord your God with 10% of your time and energy, and Pamphlet your neighbour with tracts' - Birdseye

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
"Here I stand. I can do no other".

Yes.

quote:

The only general lesson I learned both from my own leaving and the leaving of others was that it is generally better to leave, rather than stay and undermine. Undermining tends to undermine us as well.

There is an irregular verb involved.

"This church accepts a lot of diversity but there are limits.

You do not realise that my criticism is meant to be constructive.

They have always had problems with authority."

Spend some time in the midst of some of that, particularly if you see real hurt being caused to people you know and respect, and the thought which rises almost unbidden is "I don't need this".

I don't know if I've been an undermining force, but I think - no, I'm pretty certain - that I've long been considered that way. Years ago, I got run out of leading the student work for pretty much that reason. But that wasn't a reason not to stay. Then.

quote:

Another thing is that it better not to discuss the specifics too much with folks outside the situation. A phrase like "differences of outlook and vision" covers a multitude of sins.

Yes.

quote:
Perhaps finally, whatever the reason, there will be folks who will be sad at your leaving, will want to express regrets and say thanks. Avoiding a hypocritical farewell event is not easy, but on the whole it is best to try and leave with as much goodwill as possible preserved.
Currently, I'm getting myself taken off rotas and trying to figure out how to approach the actual not going anymore part.

I mean, I don't want it to be a production. I want it to be quiet. If people go, "Where's the Woods gone?" one week, that's cool. If anyone rings up, well, it's the truth, within reason. A difference of vision and that.

But do I write a letter. A quick, terse, formal note saying "sorry, we've been around for ages but we can't come anymore - feel free to update the membership list accordingly"? I really don't want to write a huge grievance-airing letter. It won't solve anything.

quote:
I'm not sure if these further generalities are of any help or in any way novel. If not for you, maybe for some others?

I think they are.

[ 24. January 2011, 10:07: Message edited by: Wood ]

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Narcissism.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by five:
Just to be clear, Wood, are you talking about leaving a church, as in the First Church of Springfield, or leaving The Church, as in the Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism?

A congregation.

But since I've been an English Baptist (in Wales the "English" makes a difference) which is a congregational denomination, that's not a distinction that matters.

But. It's a fair point. I'm talking about congregations here, not about whole denominational groupings. I think that's a very different question.

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Narcissism.

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five
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# 14492

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Well, it seems from what you wrote that this isn't a sort of "how dare they!" in a huff kind of church shopping/hopping that is all about the Woods finding somewhere in their image rather than in God's image. (Which is my own personal bugbear about people who are church hopping - it tends to be a one note rebellion, and they keep hopping on one note. Maybe not the same note, but one note.) You say there's a final straw, but that's not the same thing by any measure. You still seem a big agonised about it, even though you've already decided to go. That indicates to me that this isn't something you've taken flippantly. Your thought process seems sound, and I think the advice from Paul is a good idea.

It'll be tough, but if your soul screams so loudly, follow it. Investigate whether there is another church in your denomination that doesn't have these problems. Not to pick on the Baptists (ever, but particularly as you're one) but I don't think that any one in the Baptists would criticize you for leaving Southborogh Baptist. Most, I feel, would laud you for it. I'm sure this is not as extreme a congregation, but again, finding another one is not the worst thing you can do. Particualrly if you feel your children are at risk of harm.

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And Jesus said 'the greatest commandments are these: Love the Lord your God with 10% of your time and energy, and Pamphlet your neighbour with tracts' - Birdseye

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multipara
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# 2918

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You leave when there is no good reason to stay.

I finally left my parish in 2010 after 26 years. I'd quit singing there 18 months perviously and then attended another Mass for 18 months. It took 6 months for me to bite the bullet and admit to myself that there was no good reason to stay.

Nothing personal, mind. Just time to move on.

m

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by five:
Well, it seems from what you wrote that this isn't a sort of "how dare they!" in a huff kind of church shopping/hopping that is all about the Woods finding somewhere in their image rather than in God's image. (Which is my own personal bugbear about people who are church hopping - it tends to be a one note rebellion, and they keep hopping on one note. Maybe not the same note, but one note.)

Yeah, like I said, I'd hate it to be that. So I hope that's the case. I mean, that's part of the reason I'm struggling with how to handle the formalities. I could say why and — well, would it do any good or make any difference? Would it change anything about how we are viewed? No. I don't think it will.

But at the same time, I cannot just go without a word. I owe them more than that.

quote:
Investigate whether there is another church in your denomination that doesn't have these problems.
Honestly, I think that in the vicinity it's not going to happen.

So we're starting with churches in walking distance. We're going to join the Anglicans for a bit.

Some of the people who posted here years ago when I got my 7,000 posts would find that ironic.

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Narcissism.

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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46

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Hi Wood,

Long time!

I have left 2 congregations.

The first time I moved city. So it was nice and easy. I just chose not to go to the NFI church in the new place. The issues were general and doctrinal but not pastoral or personal.

The second time was more difficult. I was in a position of some responsibility and had significant pastoral and practical concerns. In particular questions about parental models of ministry within certain strands of Evangelicalism.

There I feel I left it too long. Tried to dialogue. Tried to leave on the right note. I am not sure that it did any good.

Once the leadership of a congregation know you disagree with them on a fairly significant pastoral issue, especially if you are in some sense a weighty respected member of the congregation, it is very hard for them not to feel threatened and confused. However respected you are it is hard to remain.

Wherever you go you will probably face the same issue again. I still feel uncomfortable with certain models of leadership. But the CofE has a breadth that encourages us to work together despite significant differences.

A good leadership team will recognise that some differences necessitate a parting of the ways however much you feel you should 'be one'. But there is no easy way around it.

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
We're going to join the Anglicans for a bit.

Some of the people who posted here years ago when I got my 7,000 posts would find that ironic.

Now you mentioned it......

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:


So we're starting with churches in walking distance. We're going to join the Anglicans for a bit.

Some of the people who posted here years ago when I got my 7,000 posts would find that ironic.

(Looks other way. Whistles.)

That is exactly what I did. And now look at me.

I will remember you in my prayers and the PM box is open.

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Edward Green
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# 46

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
We're going to join the Anglicans for a bit.

Some of the people who posted here years ago when I got my 7,000 posts would find that ironic.

Now you mentioned it......
I feel like a whipper-snapper with my May 2001 registration. Unlike you April oldies!

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
We're going to join the Anglicans for a bit.

Some of the people who posted here years ago when I got my 7,000 posts would find that ironic.

Now you mentioned it......
Oh, get you, Papist-pants.

quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Hi Wood,

Long time!

Aaaages.

quote:

There I feel I left it too long. Tried to dialogue. Tried to leave on the right note. I am not sure that it did any good.

Once the leadership of a congregation know you disagree with them on a fairly significant pastoral issue, especially if you are in some sense a weighty respected member of the congregation, it is very hard for them not to feel threatened and confused. However respected you are it is hard to remain.[/qb]

Yes. This.

And after a while you stop being respected.

quote:
Wherever you go you will probably face the same issue again. I still feel uncomfortable with certain models of leadership. But the CofE has a breadth that encourages us to work together despite significant differences.

A good leadership team will recognise that some differences necessitate a parting of the ways however much you feel you should 'be one'. But there is no easy way around it.

I understand this. The local Anglican church is in many ways a compromise. Were it just me, I'd be heading up to the URC, where the minister is a mate. But we've got the kids to think of too.

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Narcissism.

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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I wouldn't write the letter. respond honestly if asked, but otherwise keep it minimal. I took myself off reading rotas and just quit going. I get asked occasionally to come back and politely decline. No one has ever asked me why I left. I almost wish they would, but I don't think they want to know.

and for me - I left when the church could not support me when my family dissolved and I was diagnosed with MS. I needed them the most and they turned away. but it wasn't like a punishment - I just had to prioritize everything in my life and the church couldn't come before everything else, not when it hurt to go.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

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la vie en rouge
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My experience - if you can walk out of a church where you've been in regular attendance for some time, and no one notices or cares that you're gone, you probably did right to leave.

In this same church, a young single guy got ticked off and didn't turn up for about six weeks. When he decided to come back, he confronted the pastor: "If a young family with children had done what I did, you would have phoned, wouldn't you?" The pastor admitted that he would.

No one in the leadership seemed to notice when I stopped coming either.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My experience - if you can walk out of a church where you've been in regular attendance for some time, and no one notices or cares that you're gone, you probably did right to leave.

In this same church, a young single guy got ticked off and didn't turn up for about six weeks. When he decided to come back, he confronted the pastor: "If a young family with children had done what I did, you would have phoned, wouldn't you?" The pastor admitted that he would.

No one in the leadership seemed to notice when I stopped coming either.

This is a good point. I absolutely agree. I think that it's a pointer that you're not part of the community.

I think that they're going to miss us. I'm already dreading the phone calls.

[ 24. January 2011, 11:08: Message edited by: Wood ]

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Narcissism.

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bib
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# 13074

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I left one church about 10 years ago when I found the minister would not cross the road to the hospital to bring me Christmas communion. I had just undergone surgery for cancer 2 days prior to Christmas and the minister told the nurse who rang him that it wasn't his job and he was too busy. This was despite the fact that I was on Parish Council and sang in the choir. I'm afraid that a church that has no love for its people is a place to leave quick smart. I have found a much happier place since where everyone cares for each other. Life is too short to stay where you or your family and friends are unwelcome.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I think that they're going to miss us. I'm already dreading the phone calls.

Can't you get them to allege you're demonised? IME, that dries up the calls pretty good...

On a more serious note, leaving anything you've put a lot into is a wrench, and calculating whether it's worth it is a bit like deciding whether to pour even more money into repairing your old car because of all the money you've already poured into it, or start over.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I'm struggling with how to handle the formalities. I could say why and — well, would it do any good or make any difference? Would it change anything about how we are viewed? No. I don't think it will.

But at the same time, I cannot just go without a word. I owe them more than that.

In our case it was easier. We had a chat with the minister so he knew a) why we were going and b) that we weren't quitting church entirely. And, we told several other members of the congregation we were going and why, and were universally supported in our decision as the church was clearly failing to do anything with kids - and that wasn't going to change any time soon.

We never really went through that process coming back, we just walked to our old church one Sunday morning rather than get in the car for the drive down the hill. Staying in the same denomination means that we have met people from the other church on occasion so they know where we are. I've never really told them my views on their issues with Communion - mainly because we were painfully aware that there were people (and, we didn't know who) objecting to offering Communion to some baptised members of the church and that it was a very sore point within that congregation. Having decided to get out there was no point potentially aggravating that from the outside.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The local Anglican church is in many ways a compromise. Were it just me, I'd be heading up to the URC, where the minister is a mate. But we've got the kids to think of too.

What's wrong with the URC then?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The local Anglican church is in many ways a compromise. Were it just me, I'd be heading up to the URC, where the minister is a mate. But we've got the kids to think of too.

What's wrong with the URC then?
No kids' provision. Tracy would go insane. Basically.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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There are many reasons for leaving a church, some good, some not so good.

Sometimes you just feel impelled to leave. Sometimes you need time in the wilderness. The wilderness is an ambiguous place: you could (metaphorically) be devoured by lions (or worse).

The wilderness is also the place you could meet God.

Many people need wilderness time.

It could be the best thing that ever happened to some. When they come out of it it could be to (literally and metaphorically) a new place.

[ 24. January 2011, 11:54: Message edited by: Sir Pellinore (ret'd) ]

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Well...

Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
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Part of the difficulty with the decision, by the way, has been the knowledge that by leaving we directly make the pastors' lives more difficult, because their wages are paid from the tithes-n-offerings and every offering that's gone is another little reason the salaries get more difficult to pay.

Not a decision you take lightly.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The local Anglican church is in many ways a compromise. Were it just me, I'd be heading up to the URC, where the minister is a mate. But we've got the kids to think of too.

What's wrong with the URC then?
No kids' provision. Tracy would go insane. Basically.
Aye, that sounds familiar. Which is why we moved from one URC to another ... only to find that (for us) kids' provision wasn't all that important after all.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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I was at my previous church for decades and I still haven't entirely finished with that community. It is the consequence of only one change of vicar in 45 years - unusual in modern times. In a nutshell, the previous vicar changed nothing and things got into a time warp. The present vicar changed everything and threw out the baby with the bathwater, so that my preferred happy medium did not happen.

I changed churches gradually; in the first instance it was once a month to avoid a new service. I gradually increased my attendance at my 'new' church and gradually reduced it at my 'old' church.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
You leave when there is no good reason to stay.

This subject came up a week or so back when talking to a friend of mine who usually has something reasonable to say about things-church. The advice she would give to someone thinking about whether to stay or go was "go if you are called to be somewhere else, but if you don't feel called to be somewhere else then God may be calling you to stay".
I'm not sure the case she was thinking of was where someone was getting hurt by coming to church though - I think it was someone who was throwing their toys out of the pram.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Barnabas62
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(Host Muse)

I'm toying with exploring "All Saints" as a more appropriate home, but, as long as Wood doesn't mind, there is probably something to be said for giving his general question a personal and specific background.

(/Host Muse)

Wood's comment on being both a youth worker and perceived as an underminer applied to me once. I think the two relate. Most young people brought up in our churches have got a pretty good nose for BS. The hidden agenda is often that the church youth workers are expected to "civilise and socialise"; most youthworkers, being in the main radical people, find it hard to avoid some challenge to the norms! In short, youthwork and belief in some kind of reform agenda, often an uncomfortable one, are often found together. So we are often perceived as threats to the status quo. And if there are powerful leadership figures who are wedded to the status quo, see it as "sound", then it is quite easy for youthworkers to get a reputation for being disturbers of the peace, unsound, trouble, underminers. One of the ironies here is that many nonconformists churches have lost their understanding of our historical connections to Dissent.

The problem is that if you are an instinctive reformer and can (via e.g. youthwork) see good arguments for reform, the continued frustration of those instincts can make the path of real undermining far too tempting. The temptation is a lot easier to fall into if folks thing you already are a bit unsound, a bit of an underminer. "I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb".

IME, unless you have folks in church leadership who really understand not just the difficulties of this work, but also the creative possibilities for good which lie at the heart of it, the scope for misunderstanding folks involved in it is very great. In itself, a church environment which is indifferent to (or pays lip service only to) youth work may not in itself be an adequate reason to leave, but it may be a sign of a different disease; fear of change and fear of the different.

The seven last words of the church are

We've. Never. Done. It. This. Way. Before.

Most youthworkers (active or retired) would say that.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Not a decision you take lightly.

The example given in the OP is very obviously of a decision not taken lightly - 16 years in one church is certainly not church-hopping, many many people never last that long in one place. And it is obvious that a huge amount of thinking and soul-searching has gone on in order to arrive at such a stage.

In our case, it was six years, but ultimately your own soul (inner distress at every service) and your own children* (relaying back to me the intolerant attitudes they were picking up from sermons, prayers, etc) end up telling you something very obvious.

*children are such copiers - I was able to use past experience and understanding to filter out intolerance, and just enjoy the social side of the church which was very good; they were too young to do so and took everything they heard at face value.

We remained in the same denomination, but changed to a more open, accepting church where I trusted the clergy and the children's leaders to fill their heads and minds with positive experiences of the love of God, which wouldn't clash with the way we were bringing them up at home. It is possible to find such churches, even if you have to look a while first.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
(Host Muse)

I'm toying with exploring "All Saints" as a more appropriate home, but, as long as Wood doesn't mind, there is probably something to be said for giving his general question a personal and specific background.

(/Host Muse)

I'm cool with it. Do what you have to, old chap.

quote:


The seven last words of the church are

We've. Never. Done. It. This. Way. Before.

Most youthworkers (active or retired) would say that.

Yeah.

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In our case, it was six years, but ultimately your own soul (inner distress at every service) and your own children* (relaying back to me the intolerant attitudes they were picking up from sermons, prayers, etc) end up telling you something very obvious.

*children are such copiers - I was able to use past experience and understanding to filter out intolerance, and just enjoy the social side of the church which was very good; they were too young to do so and took everything they heard at face value.

Yes. This is so important. You can put up with a lot more as an adult. But kids... they listen to authority figures. In some ways, what they're getting is more important that what the adults are.

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Narcissism.

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Fineline
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There are two churches I left because I wasn't happy with them. Here are the reasons:

  • The first church I left was because the people running the children's holiday club were saying that they wanted to make a rule that children with disabilities and special needs/behavioural issues couldn't attend, because they were too much trouble and preventing the other 'normal' children from learning about God. This made me very angry, even though I don't have any children myself - probably because I would have fallen into that category when I was a child, so I took it personally. I feel strongly that people with disabilities should be included, and that people should make the effort to learn to adapt to people who are different. So anyway, I expressed my anger, and I suggested ways to make it easier for the people running the holiday club to be more inclusive, such as having people working one-to-one with difficult children, and I offered to do that myself. But to no avail. So I left that church, having attended for four years, because I didn't want to be part of a church that didn't welcome children with disabilities.
  • The second church I left was for several reasons. I only had attended a few months - I had moved house - and it wasn't the kind of church I normally attend. I don't mind this in theory, but I didn't agree with some of the teaching. There was a woman in the congregation with depression, and they prayed for her healing, but because she didn't get healed they thought she was letting the devil into her life, and they 'rebuked' her for this, which of course didn't help her depression. This made me feel angry on her behalf. I went to a fellowship group, and then when they were at my house I felt a bit uncomfortable because they thought I had brought a curse onto my house because of my yoga video and my sci-fi books. And also, I felt physically uncomfortable in the services because they played the music so loud that I couldn't focus, and the lighting gave me a headache. So all these reasons made me leave that church.

I don't know if those are considered adequate reasons, but they were my reasons. When I attend a church, I feel strongly about the way the people in the church treat each other, how they treat newcomers, and how they treat people with disabilities and differences.

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Adeodatus
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Hi Wood -

Just one tiny piece of advice here. As Chorister has said, it's obvious you're not a church-hopper. But try and find a diplomatic way of letting your new pastor know you're not a church-hopper. I remember working at one church where we seemed to get a lot of refugees from others. We always faced the situation with some dread, because in among those who were genuinely looking for a new home, there were also many who went from church to church, never settling and in fact disrupting wherever they went. It would've been nice to know who was who before they started making a mess!

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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five
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# 14492

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If there's a way to do that, that would be good. But I think it is hard to do effectively, on the grounds that as soon as someone tells you that "Oh, I'm not a church hopper" the weary reaction of the seen it many times church leader is "Oh, dear, they think they have to defend themselves already. Church hopper."

As someone who hasn't changed churches apart from moving, I'm not really sure if there's an interview process. We just always started turning up at mass and after a couple of weeks people would usually be introducing themselves. We were never asked to justify why we were there or why we had left. Your mileage may vary, though personally I'd be a bit suspect of a church that started questioning me as to the precise reasons why I'd left my last one!

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And Jesus said 'the greatest commandments are these: Love the Lord your God with 10% of your time and energy, and Pamphlet your neighbour with tracts' - Birdseye

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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
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quote:
Originally posted by five:
Your mileage may vary, though personally I'd be a bit suspect of a church that started questioning me as to the precise reasons why I'd left my last one!

Honestly, I think I agree. I think that in the long run it'd be better to be a gormless pew-filler for a bit.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
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We've had negative experiences with church-hoppers in our congregation too. In general they're very ANGRY people who have a constant need to fuel their anger within a church context...so when they arrive all they want to do is trash-talk their previous congregation...but then when that finally wears itself out they start looking for reasons to become angry with our congregation.

I don't believe in "church shopping," and don't take leaving a congregation lightly. In fact, there were some times when I became highly disenchanted with my current congregation (over matters of worship and religious formation) to the point where I began toying with the idea of switching my affiliation to another congregation in the same denomination (one that's actually closer to where I live). In the end it was the relationships that kept me attached. And since then I've assumed some responsibilities in the congregation that help me see how and why it runs from an entirely new perspective. (Bottom line: I am waaaay higher up the candle than is my congregation, and I was feeling dissatisfied with my experience of worship, along with a dearth of opportunities for spiritual formation.)

When would I cut loose from my present congregation? Hmmm. I suppose some scenarios might be:

a new pastor with glaringly off-the-wall views -- say a cheerful atheist who approaches religion as therapy for the ignorant masses, or a crypto-Southern Baptist trying to insinuate that particular theology/praxis into our Lutheran congregation

our church no longer being accepting of LGBT folks

a general unraveling/internal nervous breakdown of the congregation (been there/done that) that creates a kind of organizational and spiritual chaoes that in turn makes worship and fellowship increasingly difficult to achieve

I think those would be deal-breakers for me.

And it would be sad -- like a divorce -- although I know that I have ELCA and TEC alternatives within driving distance.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The second church I left was for several reasons. I only had attended a few months - I had moved house - and it wasn't the kind of church I normally attend.

FWIW, I wouldn't actually call that leaving a church. Rather, that's finding that the first church you try isn't the right one. When I moved up here, the first church I tried was clearly not the one for me after just one service - it was bad enough that the notices said there was coffee in the hall, but no one bothered to tell me where I'd find the hall, but the preacher made it abundantely clear that failure to accept that the earth was created in 6 days within the last 10,000 years resulted in a belief set that could only marginally be called Christian. For most people, it'll be several weeks or more before they can really judge which church they're going to join, maybe a year. And, until you join a church you can't leave it.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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leo
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# 1458

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If it became evangelical
if the eucharist wasn't the central act of worship
if it was homophobic
if it rejected the ordained ministry of women

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Leaf
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Woo! The paddock is open!

Seriously, I feel for you, Wood. It's a hard cold thing to realize that you need to exile yourself from a community in which you were heavily invested. Even when it's necessary for your spiritual life, exile sucks and prompts some grieving.

I'm not sure writing a letter to the pastor or the church is the best idea, though. What would the effects be? Would an unloving community take a long hard look at themselves and decide to become more accepting? Highly unlikely. By all means, write it down for your own clarity and peace of mind; write a journal, a blog, a private letter, but don't send it. If you send it, the most likely effect (sorry to say) would be self-justification on the part of the pastor or church, and finding fault with you.

I've been a wanderer myself, and have learned some valuable things while in the wilderness. Hope you notice the ravens and bread along the way.

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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On "what is a valid reason to leave" -

A friend told me he is looking for a new church because "five years in this church and no one knows my name." He's been on committees etc but it's a church run by and for the group who were born there, outsiders are ignored or resented, alas not too unusual in older dwindling churches.

When you move to a city and try a church and no matter how much you do no one speaks to you at coffee beyond a quick "hello" as they turn to friends, your suggestions and offers to help are ignored, how long before you say "this isn't working, this church does not want me" and move? He said no other church he's been in was like that.

Another friend changed church after just 3 or 4 months. He is a career music teacher, decided to start going to church again, went to the denomination of his youth expecting to volunteer help with either children's choir (which had folded) or handbell choir (which needed a new leader). But the music director (who is famous for running off competent musicians) forbade this guy to do anything musical except sing in the choir. My friend said nuts to that and is now at a different church where he has started both a children's choir and a handbell choir. (The handbell set was sitting unused in the church storage room.)

I suppose one could argue that he should have stayed because the choir need male voices, but he has so much more to offer than that.

I suppose both friends could be told "stay, wait a few years, maybe later things will get better." But when you've already waited 5 years, how long do you wait? Especially when you are over 70, there isn't an indefinite later, whatever you are going to do or contribute is now or very likely never.

It could be different for someone attending a church they grew up in and have lots of memories of warm experiences, the emotional ties to that particular church community or building might be strong enough, a period of being ignored or rejected is insignificant in the framework of decades of warmth and service.

[ 24. January 2011, 15:30: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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I left my last church about two years ago. I 'softly and silently vanished away' myself, just kind of tapered off my attendance. I'd go one week, and then it'd take me a few more weeks to get the energy to return, until finally I just gave up altogether and didn't go to church for six months or so.

What lead me to break up with my last church was unrealistic expectations and divergent goals. That church expected me to devote large amounts of time and financial resources, beyond the amounts I had, and expected me to be able to devote these resources at the drop of a hat, and 'no' was not an acceptable answer.

Dealing with this situation actually made me physically ill from the stress. So I left.

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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monkeylizard

Ship's scurvy
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Wood, I feel for you. We left a church last spring that had been my home for 10+ years and was my wife's church for her whole life. Try to make the best of it. I know it has been helpful for us to find a larger church where we can go and just blend in for a while. After many years of very active service, the respite is welcome. We'll get plugged in soon enough, but I'm not in a hurry for that.

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It would've been nice to know who was who before they started making a mess!

True, but if any newcomer had ever approached me as a church leader and told me they're not one of those trouble-making church hoppers, I'd have decided then and there that this is indeed a trouble-making church hopper.

The best way to let a new church know that you're not a power-grabbing loon is to simply attend quietly for a few months or more, supporting in attendance and giving. Then if you're ready to start being more active after a little while, ask about doing the low-profile jobs that nobody wants to do, like clean toilets, mop floors, weed the garden, or visit the shut-ins. Pretty much anything that requires non-Sunday morning work with zero Sunday morning visibility. The trouble-makers always want to start a new women's group, rewrite the church directory, or plan the next church social function. Anything that gets their names/faces in front of people.

Plus, being a warm body in the pew for a period has the added benefit of allowing an easier escape if the new church just doesn't fit.

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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

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chalky

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# 143

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Do you have to charge over to another right away? Maybe you do. But you could use Sunday as a Day of Rest for a while, if you wanted...

quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
I mean, I don't want it to be a production. I want it to be quiet. If people go, "Where's the Woods gone?" one week, that's cool. If anyone rings up, well, it's the truth, within reason. A difference of vision and that.

But do I write a letter. A quick, terse, formal note saying "sorry, we've been around for ages but we can't come anymore - feel free to update the membership list accordingly"? I really don't want to write a huge grievance-airing letter. It won't solve anything.

So to the art of breaking up... (LutheranChik described it as sad like divorce, not far wide of the mark, I think). The difficulty with trying to do it quietly is that there are a lot of people who will either be affected and need to communicate, or who will have things to say (supportively and constructively or otherwise!).

If you look at the whole christian Thing as attempting to repair the damage you see, and to do your best to minimise the damage you do, there are some contexts in which both parties are probably better off parted. This should not be an easy thing (which is why it isn't!) but as Barnabas62 said in that very wise post, staying can be a damage-causing option and it really sounds like in this case it would be. Sometimes living 'at peace with everyone, as far as it depends on you' (which is from somewhere in the bible and i like it), means making a break which might never make sense to those looking on and may well be challenged or not understood by those being left.

I think if you can stomach it and be a bit creative, leave in a way which means you can turn up for the odd special occasion and people will go 'how very lovely to see you, Wood people' rather than 'never darken our doors again, you dark lords of evil'. They will cope without you on a Sunday, it's the friendship stuff that is worth sticking to. Realise you will have to make more additional effort than you anticipate to keep in touch with the people you love and want to keep in touch with!

Firm, fair and honest is the best thing - and 'sufficiently open' if that makes sense; I don't think there's any harm in honesty as your friends should know 'why' and can see it in context because they know you AND the church and will understand the mismatch. It's also OK IMO to mention the other times that have made you ponder, like having to give up certain responsibilities; it's not one sided as from what you've said above it sounds like there are things you have been encouraged not to express in a leadership kind of context.

Regarding your original question, by the way (!), that would do it for me - people being silenced?! Or...encouraged strongly to keep their theological views to themselves? no no noooooooo. At the very least, alarm bells. There can be ok reasons but there rarely are.

On a practical note I would suggest making your friends aware of the decision, and the reasons if they want or need to ask, and also having a chat with those in charge - if you can stay friends with any that you really like, or feel that they wish you well, you will have left brilliantly. It is not really in their interests to 'keep you' if your convictions differ significantly from theirs and you might find they let you go with some grace; if they don't, that is sad, but give them the chance, I think. A letter? Maybe, whatever gives them the best shot at letting you part friends.

I have never left a church as an adult but I have been at the sharp end of other people leaving, in our case many have either returned or shown up to the better parties, and maybe it is the church concerned but it is usually good to see them! In my younger days I left my parents church at 14 to go to one which I preferred (better youth stuff going on), nobody minded at all. At 16 I went to another that was probably more up my street at the time (the evangelical days, yes really!! Come on, it was 20 years ago) then left for Uni - moved on very significantly but still very much value my time from my 16-19 congregation, partly cos experiences there taught me why I did not end up a conservative evangelical but why I know they are good people trying to do the right thing. Had I stayed in that town and not moved away think I would have left, and hopefully stayed friends - although being somewhere 16 years with one's growing family is very, very different to being somewhere for a few years in your late teens so I'm not saying that will be easily possible in your case... but maybe have a go.

Also, it is a VERY big deal to you now as it is (a) a big change and (b) something you sort of feel is a bit wrong on principle - so it is bound to smart for a time, but in the long run you will keep the friends you have and make new ones. Which is going to be nicer. Yay. (But not yet. Boooo).

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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I've twice left a congregation for reasons other than moving town. The first was in Cambridge and was because I'd realised I was involved with 5 different Christian communities (2 college chapels, MethSoc, and two churches) and that this was silly and so I dropped one of the churches. But in other circumstances I could have been happy there and indeed went there yesterday because their service time was more convenient than the one that became my regular!

The second time was more dramatic. My parents had moved while I was at uni and started going to a church when I visited them. In those days that church had a youngish vicar and I was made to feel welcome on my periodic visits. I then moved to live with parents for financial reasons (fourth year PhD!). By then the youngish vicar had moved on and there was a new vicar. I turned up fairly frequently (though for once not every week as I was back in Cambridge about every three weeks) from February. By September I had not exchanged more than a few words with the vicar. I then started an evening course in Hebrew taught (co-incidentally) by the vicar. I mentioned that one reason for doing it was thinking about ordination. No response from him. But I was sticking with the church and indeed had joined the choir.

At the end of January, he licensed new chalice assistants at Matins and preached a sermon ruling out transubstantiation and upholding the 39 articles in a very low interpretation. Something snapped and if I hadn't been in the choir I might well have left. I just knew I couldn't go back. It wasn't just the theological difference exposed by the sermon, but also the fact that I'd've like to have known about the opportunity to become a chalice assistant -- not unreasonable in someone considering ordination. It just underlined the fact I wasn't that involved and couldn't see how to become more involved. The following week I went to another church where a couple of friends went and ended up serving and reading and within a month was licensed to take the chalice!

In both cases, it was as much about what was good for my spiritual development at that point in time as the churches in question.

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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The best thing we ever did when we joined a new church was not to diss the old vicar to the new vicar. The best thing the new vicar did was to leave us alone to find our way and settle in without hassling us about what went wrong.

Writing a letter does make you feel temporarily better, but then, if you get a very hurtful reply, you have to deal with that on top of everything else you're already dealing with. Perhaps leaving in an open-ended way, letting your old minister know that you need time to sort out confused feelings, is a kinder way of exiting than saying, 'Right, I've had enough - I'm off!' I should have told that advice to myself several years ago as well....

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
monkeylizard

Ship's scurvy
# 952

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Carys brings up a point I'd like to clarify. If a student at a local university was considering ordination, I'd not consider them to be a trouble-maker for asking to be come involved in highly visible activities after a very short attendance period. It would be very much in line with persuing ordination and should be encouraged by the local church. Still, even they can scrub a toilet on a Saturday night.

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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

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I've left a church twice (other than the job frequently moving me to new cities), both in this little town.

One changed theology to "women must live under the authority of a man and can't be in any kind of leadership" and kicked women off all committees. I can't thrive emotionally in an environment that belittles women, so I left that church but I am still in one of their Bible study group, and just skip the times they get into this topic.

The other church I was working on more and more projects and committees and the more I did the more I was praised for "really good work" but simultaneously scolded for "not doing enough around here." At 20 hours a week the scoldings became more intense. I left. I have visited a few times since but still feel tense when I walk in the building because of all the scolding for supposedly not doing enough. (One friend recently explained, "you were unemployed, you had no excuse for not being here every day.")

Now I attend a church with female clergy and I decide how much I am willing to do, and "just say no" to the frequent requests to take on another project (or another expense). I guess churches are always in need of more help.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
frin

Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9

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I left a church once, not long after I joined the Ship. I hadn't been there as a regular congregant for more than a few months, but I had been part of its community for a long time before that. Despite being in many people's eyes a newcomer, I found it very hard to leave, and I kept wondering whether I was supposed to stay and be part of the solution rather than wash my hands of the place.

My tipping point issue was listening to several church members gossiping about a group of children who had just come in. These weren't the children (or grandchildren) of a church member, but a group of waifs and strays who had started to show up of their own accord. I could not bear knowing that the church membership was judgemental about the few people who were willing to cross the threshold of what was beginning to be a dying church. I didn't write a letter, but I did make an appointment with an older member of the congregation to explain what was wrong and why I couldn't come back. He graciously encouraged me to go and find a place where I belonged. Which I did, but not without a couple of years where the only places of belonging I had were the Ship and a house group that wanted to be a church plant.

Last year, a very active member of my own church left. She wrote a letter to the elders, received by each one of us, to tell us that she was leaving. I don't think it explained why. That was saved for more direct conversations with those people who got in touch to ask. Her experience leaving seemed like a bereavement. For a while, maybe even still, no other church could be the place where she could settle instead. That was my experience too, which is why I ended up in some quirky Christian settings instead.

There's a book called A Churchless Faith by Alan Jamieson, which is about a decade old now, but explores what it means to leave a charismatic or evangelical church and tells the stories of some of the research subjects who did so. You might find it interesting, I did.

'frin

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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.

Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged



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