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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Staring at the debt ceiling
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Photo Geek:
Bad news for the tea party. Conservatives are beginning to openly attack their actions.
Kathleen Parker is pretty much considered liberal and thus far it's only been GOP members who have been moderate (read liberal by TP standards) like John McCain. Other than that, most of the GOP are quaking in their boots.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I find talk about the 14th amendment pretty ominous. The executive grabbing that sort of power would undoubtedly precipitate a constitutional crisis. I dare say that would be worse than a default.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Again, Obama has already publicly rejected that option.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
I don't see how it's possible to have a constitutionally-mandated default without also having a constitutional crisis.
Forgive my naivety here - but it seems to me that when sovereign states default on their debt, it's normally because their economy and/or public finances are genuinely borked. It's not normally because they have some sort of internal law, policy or procedure that dictates that they should not honour those debts.
So, what's going on? Has the US had this "yeah but we don't actually have to pay if we don't want to" get-out clause on its sovereign debt all along? If so, then it's a wonder that they've held triple-A rating for as long as they have.
One potential plus-side of the whole drama, though, is that if the two sides do cut a deal, then it means that they might be able to get away with sailing closer to the wind in the future than they have this time round. It's the equivalent of saying, "There's a chance I might not pay. No really, there's a chance I might not pay. Seriously, I'm not having you on - I might not pay. Ha ha ha, had you going there, course I was always going to pay, you never seriously doubted that did you? Look, here's the money now."
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
White House addresses 14th Amendment "solution" here.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
One of the issues must be that a lot of debt in other nation states is also denominated in US dollars. Quite what happens to that if Congress and the White House can't arrange to handle this is something I do not understand.
Anyone? A Tea Partier even.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Photo Geek:
Bad news for the tea party. Conservatives are beginning to openly attack their actions.
Whew! That was close. I thought you a conservative.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Photo Geek
Shipmate
# 9757
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Posted
New Yorker said quote:
Whew! That was close. I thought you a conservative
Have you read my sig ???
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"Liberal Christian" is not an oxymoron.
Posts: 242 | From: Southern Ohio, US | Registered: Jul 2005
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I'm liking Boehner more and more.
Democrats: The party of no ideas, no plans, no constructive ways forward. The party who can't say yes.
[ 30. July 2011, 15:52: Message edited by: New Yorker ]
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Don't worry, my friend, the Republicans will cave. They always do.
Like they caved on extending the Bush tax cuts, not at all tying it to continued unemployment benefits, or forcing a showdown, and watching Obama cave? You need to read some history. Earlier you didn't think Obama had a plan, even. Hahahaha. Get your news from somebody else than Fox.
quote:
How is the GOP's behavior treasonous?
Because they are holding the US's, and the world's, ecconomy hostage for political gain. Because some of them have actually made financial wagers that will REWARD them for fucking our economy for generations to come.
quote:
The Democrats are spending us into oblivion.
Well, no, they really aren't. The Democrats balanced the budget under Clinton, and Bush fucked us by cutting taxes and grossly increasing spending. The tax cuts were justified by the obscene notion that otherwise we would be paying off the debt too quickly! The Republicans didn't give a flying fuck about the debt until the Koch Brothers et al. told them to, as a means to slash social programs. Drown it in the bathtub, in part by breaking the bank by deficit spending.
Lots of economists, including many on the right, are saying that a recession is NOT the time to decrease government spending. This will throw MORE people into the job market, and decrease demand for retail goods and services at a time when we really can't afford to have demand decreased. The job loss ripple-down will cause even more people to lose their jobs because the former government workers will stop spending as much, so suppliers of goods and services to them will have to lay people off, causing unemployment to go up, which will reduce demands for goods and services .... Do the math.
quote:
They're selling us to the Chinese. They passed, what, two stimuli that caused the debt to soar and did little if anything to help.
Because they were not nearly large enough, yes.
quote:
All the Tea Party is saying is STOP. We're broke.
Except we're not broke. Our debt is being sold at 0 or near 0 interest, and people are still flocking to buy it. We're simply not broke. That's a lie.
quote:
Cut spending now. That is caring about America. That is caring about our future.
Except it's not. Cutting spending now is exactly the WRONG thing to do. Spend more now, get the economy back on its feet. Then revenue will increase, and THEN we can start cutting back, when we can actually afford to do so.
quote:
It is not that we don't care about the poor and needy. We certainly do. (What is we normally hear when politicians release their tax returns? Usually the Republicans give much more to charity than the Democrats.)
Charity isn't enough. If it were enough, we wouldn't even HAVE social security or medicare.
quote:
Those who oppose and belittle the Tea Party seem to have their head in the sand about the real crisis facing the country.
Nope. The REAL crisis is the economy. "It's the economy, stupid" as was said by the last man to balance the budget.
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
I'm not happy with the Dems either so I'm registered Independent and wish we could trash the 2 party system as it's broken.
Hear, hear.
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I don't see how it's possible to have a constitutionally-mandated default without also having a constitutional crisis.
The debt ceiling is not in the constitution. This is not a constitutional crisis. This is a manufactured crisis with the sole intent of slashing social spending.
Fox News -- FOX NEWS for God's sake -- has printed an editorial saying as much:
Republicans, appealing to conservative voters, have held to one simple line: no new tax revenue. It doesn't matter if we raise the revenue by closing corporate tax loopholes or taxing wealthy earners -- the one group to benefit handsomely from the last decade of economic growth. Lower the deficit by cutting spending only or the economy gets it.
This is not from some Liberal news source. When Fox News tells you the Republicans are manufacturing a crisis, it's not just a Liberal fantasy that the Republicans are manufacturing a crisis. Note what he says about the importance of lowering unemployment, and that the crisis is manufactured.
[ 30. July 2011, 16:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except we're not broke. Our debt is being sold at 0 or near 0 interest, and people are still flocking to buy it. We're simply not broke. That's a lie.
So if I swipe my credit card and it says approved, that means I'm not broke?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except we're not broke. Our debt is being sold at 0 or near 0 interest, and people are still flocking to buy it. We're simply not broke. That's a lie.
So if I swipe my credit card and it says approved, that means I'm not broke?
Compared to other industrialized nations, the US debt is actually very manageable. That is, so long as interest rates stay low... *ominous organ chord*
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Mousethief:
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Spot on, my friend.
AFZ
Adding my ditto to the mouse
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
You're funny, New Yorker.
Thanks. Two shows each on Friday and Saturday nights. Much better than watching C-Span. Two drink minimum
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Compared to other industrialized nations, the US debt is actually very manageable. That is, so long as interest rates stay low... *ominous organ chord*
If the Federal Reserve Bank conitinues using green paper to buy up unsold US Treasury securities to keep the interest rates artificially low, the debt will be manageable - but the shit will hit the fan sooner or later, probably sooner.
(was that the ominous opening chords to the Toccata and Fugue in D minor?)
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except we're not broke. Our debt is being sold at 0 or near 0 interest, and people are still flocking to buy it. We're simply not broke. That's a lie.
So if I swipe my credit card and it says approved, that means I'm not broke?
Are people lining up to loan you money at 0% interest, even if you're far in the hole? Can you print money? Do people speak of the "full faith and credit of romanlion" as being a guarantee of financial stability? Do most of the world's markets run on the romanlion dollar?
What? No? Then your comparison is facile and misleading.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
... The Democrats are spending us into oblivion. ...
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) Once more, with feeling: US Debt Limits
Look at that graphic. Look at the stats for each President. The steepest increases in the debt limit were under Reagan and Bush II. Clinton succeeded in lowering the debt limit to GDP ratio, as did Carter. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
You'd have to speak with a teabagger to understand how deep the rabbit hole goes. You can't get through to them with substantiated facts. They will simply ignore them, change the subject or accuse you of liberal bias. It's maddening.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
But Obama has already stated publicly that he doesn't believe he has this Constitutional authority, and that he is acting on that advice from his own lawyers.
(@ ken; X-post w NY)
Obama didn't quite say that--the statement was that the White House lawyers were "not convinced it was a winning strategy." Which is not quite the same as saying it's not constitutional, or completely ruling it out.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
You're funny, New Yorker.
Thanks. Two shows each on Friday and Saturday nights. Much better than watching C-Span. Two drink minimum
One for each hand.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
SPK -
I suppose political theatre like this would not happen in Ottawa? Or, at least not exactly like this? As long as the PM can control his/her party the budget gets passed, right? Must the Senate agree, too?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except we're not broke. Our debt is being sold at 0 or near 0 interest, and people are still flocking to buy it. We're simply not broke. That's a lie.
So if I swipe my credit card and it says approved, that means I'm not broke?
Compared to other industrialized nations, the US debt is actually very manageable. That is, so long as interest rates stay low... *ominous organ chord*
Zach
Or as long as the revenue streams remain at the same level.
Given your significant issues with personal debt levels down there, I wouldn't count on that.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
No, something like this can't happen. Sure, there are lots of ways to gum up the House but this isn't one of them. The NDP just had a 26-hour filibuster over legislation ordering Canada Post back to work.
First, the Responsible Government provision of the Constitution means that the Government MUST pass its budget in order to continue in office. If the Government loses a budget vote, it is a motion of no-confidence in the Government. The government must resign and an either a new government found from the other parties or an election called. The former happened in 1926, the latter happened in 1979.
We hold a constitutional gun to our governing party saying you must pass a budget or you're gone. Easy come, easy go. It's nice when you can hold elections at the drop of a had, or writ as the case may be.
Since the Canadian Senate is not elected it is very tame, especially when it comes to budget matters. Actually the House of Commons has a rule saying that any amendments to financial legislation by the Senate will not be considered by the House.
Plus there is Section 24 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which says that the Queen (and only the Queen, not the Governor General, oddly) can appoint eight extra Senators to break the Senate if it rejects a bill. This has only happened once in 1990 when Brian Mulroney had to call the Queen at Balmoral to get her to invoke Section 24. He appointed bagmen who would soon retire by the mandatory age of 75 anyway.
So no, this can't happen in Canada. Especially over money. The Government is responsible to the House and has total control and responsibility for the budget. The House of Commons puts its Practice and Procedure Manual online. It's very detailed and since I was dreadfully bored, I read it. The theory is "The Crown requests funds, the House grants the funds, the Senate assents to the grant".
No, what is happening at present in the US Congress is constitutionally impossible in Canada. Our theory of government, money, responsibility and the relation of those three is on another planet compared to the American system.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
There is only one other country in the world with a "debt limit": Denmark. Most sane legislatures understand that if they authorize spending and don't authorize revenue to cover it, there will logically be a need to borrow the difference.
Doh.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
There is only one other country in the world with a "debt limit": Denmark. Most sane legislatures understand that if they authorize spending and don't authorize revenue to cover it, there will logically be a need to borrow the difference.
Do you see what the problem is with your post here? I emphasized the important words to hopefully help you and the other readers understand what the issue is.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I emphasized the important words ...
What can I say? The inmates are running the asylum.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
So, SPK -
Being a Canadian Senator is a cushy job?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Very cushy. All right, some do actual work, but the system has been rankly abused for decades. Accepting a Senate appointment makes you fair game in editorial cartoons for boarding the Pork Barrel Express.
Abolition of the Senate is frequently proposed due to the perceived cushiness and unelected nature, but that's another thread.
I never said Canada was perfect.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
What does the Canadian Senate have to do with this thread? Or is it just an effort to change the subject? OliviaG
PS @ Alfred E. Newman - yes, but I expect higher standards of debate on the Ship.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
The only relevance of Canadian politics is that Harper & his so-called Conservatives also claim that Liberals and NDP over-spend. In reality the Conservative government is currently blowing Paul Martin's surplus on e.g. more prisons while the crime rate drops. But it seems facts and right-wingers are like oil and water - they just don't mix. OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Sorry for the tangent. I've always had a soft spot for Canada.
Regarding the debt limit, I would simply say that the problem is not the debt limit; the problem is the debt. The elephant in the living room has to bee addressed. (He'll get very messy if not.)
The debt is out of control. The Democrats are not interested in reducing the debt. Indeed, the Republicans are not interested in reducing it enough.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
The Democrats are not interested in reducing the debt.
Gee, who was the last president to actually balance the budget and begin to have a realistic chance of reducing the debt? Which party was he from? Let's not see the same hands.
The problem is not the debt. The problem is the economy. The problem is joblessness. The problem is the wealth- and income disparity.
Get the economy going again, get jobs for all those people, get the money back down in the hands of people who actually spend it on goods and services rather than in games with bad paper and computer arbitraging, and the deficit will go down. Then get us out of those stupid wars, restore a progressive tax system that actually taxes the super-rich at a progressive rate, tax capital gains as income, and stop the corporate welfare that gives oil companies government subsidies while they're making record profits (let me say that again: government subsidies while they're making record profits).
But until we get this economy going, we're not going to be able to reduce the debt, and it would be disastrous to try.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...Get the economy going again, get jobs for all those people, get the money back down in the hands of people who actually spend it on goods and services rather than in games with bad paper and computer arbitraging, and the deficit will go down....
Spending it on TV's made in China or on accessing a bloated medical bureaucracy isn't all that much better either.
Your saving rate sucks too (as does Canada's for that matter but at least we don't have to worry about being unable to afford getting sick).
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Saving rate? Do people still let their cash sit in "Savings" accounts? With the price of food inflating at 4%/year? Amazing.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
There is this thing called investing. I know its considered evil by some people but it is savings too and doesn't have to be the junk paper talked about.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Hey, no one ever said deficit deduction has to work. It just has to sound good. All those he-haw jokes about how your household doesn't spend more money than you have in the bank (despite the fact that the majority of American households do, in fact, spend more than they have in the bank.)
the problem is, the economy is being highjacked by the same group that figured out they could tell passionate pro-life evangelicals that they were "pro-life" and then spend the next 20 yrs doing absolutely nothing about it (meanwhile doing just about everything in their power to make life difficult for born children). Didn't matter, as long as they checked the right boxes, wiped away a tear or two.
You don't have to figure out any way to actually make the deficit go down. As far as the GOP is concerned, if they get re-elected, then it "worked".
[ 31. July 2011, 03:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...Get the economy going again, get jobs for all those people, get the money back down in the hands of people who actually spend it on goods and services rather than in games with bad paper and computer arbitraging, and the deficit will go down....
Spending it on TV's made in China or on accessing a bloated medical bureaucracy isn't all that much better either.
Your saving rate sucks too (as does Canada's for that matter but at least we don't have to worry about being unable to afford getting sick).
People being employed is, in fact, a lot better than their being unemployed, even if the TVs they buy are made in China.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
An interesting "Yes!" magazine article, which links to a more detailed report:
How to liberate America: How is it that our nation is awash in money, but too broke to provide jobs and services? David Korten introduces a landmark new report, “How to Liberate America from Wall Street Rule.”
Some great cartoons in the report, too.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
There is this thing called investing. I know its considered evil by some people but it is savings too and doesn't have to be the junk paper talked about.
Trick is how to tell the junk from the rest . . .
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
There is this thing called investing. I know its considered evil by some people but it is savings too and doesn't have to be the junk paper talked about.
Most investors borrow to invest. Smart ones do it with other people's money. Spending other people's money is the chief local industry of this fair city of London, and the reason it is in many ways the real capital of world capitalism
And sorry, New Yorker, when I say that spending other people's money is the chief local industry of London, I don't mean the government spending British people's tax money. I mean the finance business spending everybody's money. Wherever they live.
And sorry, New York City, when I say that London is the real capital of world capitalism I mean that its foreign exchange markets are larger than yours and its banking industry is larger than yours and once again - after a gap of some decades - its equity markets are larger than yours.
Its the Heart of Darkness. Its where the banks keep your money. Except they don't just keep it, they lend it while you aren't looking. That's what gets invested, not savings. Savings is what they do in places like China and India. Americans save about 4% of their personal income on average but as so many of them have mortgages their average net savings are negative. As usual we Brits have a more cowboy attitude to finance than Americans do. We borrow a little more and save much less.
Its not your savings that your bank invests. Its your wages. Unless you draw everything out on the day you get paid, they are being lent all over the world. Well, mostly between about Holborn and Poplar actually.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Plus there is Section 24 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which says that the Queen (and only the Queen, not the Governor General, oddly) can appoint eight extra Senators to break the Senate if it rejects a bill.
A nitpicking thing but surely constitutionally the Queen only acts on the advice of her Ministers, as does the GG, so it makes little difference who signs the bit of paper, it was really the government of Canada all along?
(While there is a functioning government of course, if there isn't all bets are off, but so far Canada has avoided that fate better than Australia. And nobody mention Newfoundland)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Well, it looks like Obama decided to try again with the House. Which means that the Senate's deal is off the table.
And the deal, as it's being described so far, includes a provision to create a bipartisan, bicameral deficit cutting committee. If the committee can't come up with a proposal that can pass by Thanksgiving, then a whole lot of draconian spending cuts will happen automatically.
Which is rather like telling the Tea Party Caucus, "If you don't eat your veggies, then you'll have ice cream and cake for dessert."
It would avoid default on Tuesday, which is good. But I almost feel like a bike rider who wants to avoid a concussion in the event of an accident. Instead of being offered a helmet, though, the people in charge are offering decapitation.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Grow a spine, Barry.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Grow a spine, Barry.
Sadly, Barry wants to appeal to both GOP and the Dems and he sounds like he doesn't belong to either. This is the winning formula to be a one term president ala Jimmy Carter. If that does happen I was a majority Dem Congress. We'll have gridlock, but I prefer that to the destruction that will have free reign if it's one party rule.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Plus there is Section 24 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which says that the Queen (and only the Queen, not the Governor General, oddly) can appoint eight extra Senators to break the Senate if it rejects a bill.
A nitpicking thing but surely constitutionally the Queen only acts on the advice of her Ministers, as does the GG, so it makes little difference who signs the bit of paper, it was really the government of Canada all along?
(While there is a functioning government of course, if there isn't all bets are off, but so far Canada has avoided that fate better than Australia. And nobody mention Newfoundland)
You'd think, but the Constitution Act, 1867 is explicit in saying that it has to be the Sovereign and not the Governor General. The Prime Minister is required to call London and can't go to Rideau Hall to get a Senate expansion.
Don't ask me what the thoughts behind it were, I just know that it exists and it has been invoked precisely once in 144 years.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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