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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: London Riots - The Root Cause
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I was genuinely appalled by a couple of Manchester* youths interviewed this morning. They were probably in their mid-teens, had been looting and expressed it as getting back at those who can afford televisions, fancy phones etc while they have nothing. They weren't afraid of getting caught and even if they were it would only be a first offence.
The description of 'violent materialism' which Leaf mentioned upthread appears accurate.
*They could be from Salford. I can't tell the accents apart.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
And yes, I have in the past occasionally been checked on by police (with sub-machine guns pointing at me) for nothing but being young and long-haired (and French police were much gworse than German, I discovered). Probably more often than the average black kid nowadays.
While I will allow this is your perception, I have serious doubts as to its reality. And, a relative point here, you could've cut your hair.
As to black people "protecting criminals" from the police more than whites, simply being white does not draw extra attention from said police. Not in England.
Plus what ken said about family.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I don't believe it's an underclass at all.
I think it's angry people; angry that they are being given the impression of freedom and democracy, but in reality have been ransomed to a new rich elite who have been highlighted all the more by the current economic crises. I think people are angry because they having an increasing sense of a decrease in real choice - politically speaking. All the parties look the same, walk the same, talk the same - in the eyes of many, they all do the same....absolutely nothing. People are angry because they see a huge gap growing between the rich and the poor; and it's not a gap between the middle class and the working class either - it's a genuine gap emerging between the high rich elite (who seem totally untouchable in law) and everybody else. It's not that the middle class or even the working class want to get super rich and join an elite, no; I think that most people have very genuine concerns about the huge numbers of people falling into debt and poverty and who will never come out of it again until their dying day. I think that a lot of people are angry that basic things like health care and having a roof over your head and being able to have a job are no longer secure - if anything they are less secure than ever before. I think people are angry that we are in yet another bloody boom and bust phase and the last time we went through this everyone in the western world said 'oh we can't let this happen again' and here we are again with everyone repeating the same old mantra and nobody wanting to change anything to make sure it never happens again. And I think 'da youf' are angry at being patronised and treated like second class citizens, who know they are not being invested in who feel like their are viewed by the generation above as a threatening presence, a moral malignancy, a lost generation; yet in truth it is the 40+ of this world who have lived a life of decadent wastefulness that has got us where we are, but who have the audacity to tell the unrestful to shut up and put up.
If you haven't noticed any of this and if you still think you need to look around and see why this is happening, well all I can say is, I have no idea what cushy little stone you've been living under, but perhaps if there's room in there, can I come and join you?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
One of the first looters in front of the courts (He pleaded guilty) was a teaching assistant. No 'underclass' there.
That will be his job and chance of any other job down the tubes for good.
Why would someone risk everything for a new TV?
It makes no sense whatever to me.
Round here, fringes of London, teaching assistant's package is worth about £8k pa. Fine if it's a second income for a mother earning the family a second income in school term time and being around for their kids in holidays - as a living wage, not so good.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Quoth Fletcher Christian:
quote:
I think it's angry people
And they're so angry that they have to have a proper laugh by smashing, looting and burning local shops, standing by and enjoying the fun and/or sending their wee kiddies into the fray to nick stuff for them, right?
I think you've lost the plot a bit, Fletcher. Have you seen any of the footage or read any of the commentary from witnesses? You're the one who's not rooted in reality, Mr Christian.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
oh yeah, forgot to mention the anger over this too (an anger conveniently picked up by Mr Howe in this link).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiUHB_Lewcs&feature=related
Oddly the interview, and the particular course it takes, is like a little microcosm of a much larger issue
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
There are times when Darcus Howe comes across as having so many chips on his shoulder, it's a wonder his arms don't fall off.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
And they're so angry that they have to have a proper laugh by smashing, looting and burning local shops, standing by and enjoying the fun and/or sending their wee kiddies into the fray to nick stuff for them, right?
I think you've lost the plot a bit, Fletcher. Have you seen any of the footage or read any of the commentary from witnesses? You're the one who's not rooted in reality, Mr Christian.
Do you honestly believe that all protests, insurrections, riots and marks of unrest occur morally? Do you really believe that such events are controlled and even-handed? Do you really believe that all of those involved stole a plasma tv?
Do you think the unrestful in Libya are void of looters and the morally questionable? Are the rioting people of Syria well behaved and controlled? Of course we call such actions in far away places 'legitimate protest' because of the particular side of the fence we fall on, and not least I imagine because it's happening in a land far away and not on our doorstep. No, when it happens in our streets we call it 'rioting'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Are the rioting people of Syria well behaved and controlled? Of course we call such actions in far away places 'legitimate protest' because of the particular side of the fence we fall on, and not least I imagine because it's happening in a land far away and not on our doorstep. No, when it happens in our streets we call it 'rioting'.
Are you equating the British system with the Syrian regime?
Send some of the rioters there and let them compare and contrast!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
fuck me, you can't have a single bloody sensible conversation on this board without dicks jumping to ridiculous conclusions and making idiotic insinuations out of what you say rather than stopping for just a short moment to actually think about it
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are times when Darcus Howe comes across as having so many chips on his shoulder, it's a wonder his arms don't fall off.
By the end of it the interviewer manages to look cruel and stupid and ignorant and patronising and flustered all at once. She will be wanting to live that down for a long time.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
One of the first looters in front of the courts (He pleaded guilty) was a teaching assistant. No 'underclass' there.
That will be his job and chance of any other job down the tubes for good.
Why would someone risk everything for a new TV?
It makes no sense whatever to me.
Round here, fringes of London, teaching assistant's package is worth about £8k pa. Fine if it's a second income for a mother earning the family a second income in school term time and being around for their kids in holidays - as a living wage, not so good.
Quite. If the criminal activity was related to a protest against his wages, it would be justifiable. Like peace campaigners who damage nuclear equipment. But sheer theft for no other reason than idiocy is a sure and justifiable reason for him losing his job.
The problem that these disturbances reveal is that the ruling class have systematically depoliticised most of the working class, and brainwashed them into accepting a culture of greed, then they turn round and shout 'shame!'
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Do you honestly believe that all protests, insurrections, riots and marks of unrest occur morally? Do you really believe that such events are controlled and even-handed? Do you really believe that all of those involved stole a plasma tv?
Do you think the unrestful in Libya are void of looters and the morally questionable? Are the rioting people of Syria well behaved and controlled? Of course we call such actions in far away places 'legitimate protest' because of the particular side of the fence we fall on, and not least I imagine because it's happening in a land far away and not on our doorstep. No, when it happens in our streets we call it 'rioting'.
Syria? Libya? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
With respect, you're off your head, mate. Keep it real, Fletch.
[ 10. August 2011, 16:41: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Quite. If the criminal activity was related to a protest against his wages, it would be justifiable. Like peace campaigners who damage nuclear equipment. But sheer theft for no other reason than idiocy is a sure and justifiable reason for him losing his job.
Well - yes - but - there's a distinction to be made between whether an action is morally justifiable or not, and the circumstances that lead a person to take such action in the first place.
Saying it's not morally justifiable does not mean it does not happen. It's not morally justifiable that the sun rises each day, but it still happens.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are times when Darcus Howe comes across as having so many chips on his shoulder, it's a wonder his arms don't fall off.
Only detected one chip, likely justified. All depends on the lens through which one views, I suppose.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
From the BBC News website:
'The prime minister says "we needed a fightback and a fightback is under way"'.
Like fighting and anything based on that is any use. Our cities need peace, not confrontation.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Chester, and others, I was not comparing the London riots to Syria and Libya, what I was asking was did you think that 'rioting' elsewhere in the world is void of the problems that can be seen in the rioting in London? It's a fairly straight forward question which I thought was fairly reasonable among people that I have until now assumed had above average abilitiy in reading comprehension.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
Whilst I know some will not be remotely interested in the following words, when they know who said them, they sum up where I'm coming from quite well;
quote:
Specifically referring to the recall of parliament:
Those who want to stand and blast the rioters and the looters, blame parents, blame welfare handouts, blame Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and-or Cameron should be allowed to do so. And those who believe that there are serious underlying social issues should be able to raise them without being accused of condoning violence.
Parliament has to be the place where free speech is valued and respected and the free flow of ideas is encouraged. If MPs feel their constituents feel anger and resentment that those who caused the global financial crisis are still running their banks and raking in their bonuses, while others lose benefits and public services, they should say so. If they feel that a young person who feels valued in and by the community is less likely to riot than one who does not, they should say so. If they feel cuts in youth services are a factor, they should say so. If they feel there is a growing gulf between a political, financial and media elite, and people really struggling to find work and pay their way in the world, they should say so. If they feel, as Boris Johnson does, that now is the worst possible time to be cutting police numbers, they should say so. If they feel local government has been strangled of real power and leadership, they should say so.
<snip>
If Parliament is to command the respect it should, it must tomorrow be the place that starts a serious debate as to why this has happened, what it says about what Britain has become, and what if any policy and cultural changes need to be advanced.
Any guesses?
well... here's the link...
Violence is abhorrent. But if we pretend there are no underlying causes, if we pretend that we are somehow better because we don't find ourselves in a situation with very little hope and nothing to lose then we are hypocrites and fools.
As Thomas Buergenthal (Holocaust survivor, human rights lawyer and justice at the international criminal court) notes, the most unspeakable evil is most often committed by very ordinary people in the wrong circumstances.
A just society responds by punishing the guilty and fixing the circumstances.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are times when Darcus Howe comes across as having so many chips on his shoulder, it's a wonder his arms don't fall off.
Only detected one chip, likely justified. All depends on the lens through which one views, I suppose.
I suppose. But the people I'd like to hear in all of this are people like the cleaners-up; the magnificent Hackney woman berating the looters for destroying her community; the Sikh men, silently gathering to defend their temple; Dan Snow, wrestling a looter to the ground. People who saw this for the shallow criminality that it is, not some loud old man who seems not to have learned anything since he learned his tired 1970s rhetoric.
Still, that's the BBC for you: rent-a-mouth broadcasting is always easier than going for a quality discussion. And to be fair to Howe, he gave the reporter exactly what she deserved.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Why one person rioted. The opening parts of the last paragraph-but-3 and -but-2 are particularly interesting.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Why one person rioted. The opening parts of the last paragraph-but-3 and -but-2 are particularly interesting.
Interesting, but isn't this an excercise in imaginitve empathy rather than the words of an actual rioter?
I mean the bloke is a university professor who edits an academic journal that wants
quote:
...empirical, theoretical and policy-oriented articles that recognise the inherently problematic nature of the terrorism label, employ a critical-normative perspective broadly defined, and challenge accepted orthodoxies.
Sounds more like a writer than a rioter to me.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Sounds more like a writer than a rioter to me.
Well, they do sound a bit similar ...
Quite a contrast to the actual Manchester rioter interviewed this morning, who said something like "Why should I pass up the chance of all this free stuff?" There's political idealism for you.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
And you don't think that the BBC and other news agencies are selective in how they report the rioting and how they portray it? Oh no, never would they do such a thing, never have they ever done such a .... oh wait a minute
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
That there are those who take advantage of a situation, none here are debating. There would be nothing to take advantage of without the underlying causes which sparked th riot.
Even many of those who are merely looting and burning may be doing so out of pent up frustration even if they do not articulate this.
Not that this is one iota of excuse.
ETA: Response to Adeodatus, not FC.
[ 10. August 2011, 18:12: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Round here, fringes of London, teaching assistant's package is worth about £8k pa.
He must have known that when he applied. The news reports haven't said whether he was living at home with his parents, in a shared house or with a partner, i.e. whether he could be presumed to have some kind of financial help/support or relatively low-cost accommodation. He must have. You couldn't afford to take that kind of job otherwise.
If this is generally some kind of protest about social conditions it's looking rather like an extended tantrum. "The world owes me a living, I haven't had it so I'm going to smash things up until I get it."
And I note that the first sentences appear to be 10 weeks and 16 weeks. It doesn't sound like much of a deterrent.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Ariel, if you're signing on and you qualify for a job, you have to take it, you lose benefits otherwise. You get told to claim working tax credits if you're not paid enough - and that's a whole can of ballsed up worms
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
"Why should I pass up the chance of all this free stuff?" There's political idealism for you.
That sounds like MPs responses to the Expenses scandal.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
He must have known that when he applied. The news reports haven't said whether he was living at home with his parents, in a shared house or with a partner, i.e. whether he could be presumed to have some kind of financial help/support or relatively low-cost accommodation. He must have. You couldn't afford to take that kind of job otherwise.
Couldn't afford to take that kind of job?
You seem to be overlooking the possibility that he might have been badgered into it by a workfare scheme for the long-term unemployed.
I really don't think that when people take low-paid jobs, it's because they're passing up offers of higher-paid jobs so that they can deliberately screw the in-work-benefits system out of more money. You'll be blaming poor people for their own poverty next.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
"Why should I pass up the chance of all this free stuff?" There's political idealism for you.
That sounds like MPs responses to the Expenses scandal.
It does indeed. And if the disturbances had been directed at those self-seeking bastards, I could believe it was real protest, real politics. But the looters have destroyed the very people, businesses and institutions who can actually make a difference to their lives and communities, for the sake of what? Not a new world, not a better society: no, just a new pair of trainers.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
You seem to be overlooking the possibility that he might have been badgered into it by a workfare scheme for the long-term unemployed.
Was he long-term unemployed? Or did he choose it? Let's not leap to conclusions here. It's only one possibility out of several. We don't know anything about his personal circumstances.
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Ariel, if you're signing on and you qualify for a job, you have to take it, you lose benefits otherwise. You get told to claim working tax credits if you're not paid enough - and that's a whole can of ballsed up worms
To be fair, in the first few months of a new unemployment benefit claim, it's not exactly hard to put up a pretence of looking for a job when you're not really bothering. But that changes when they push you onto the New Deal scheme. New Deal is a hassle - and it seems that very few people think it's genuinely helpful.
I think part of the reason why sickness benefit claims used to be so high, is that it was a lot easier to pretend that you're more unhealthy than you really are, than it was to pretend that you're making more effort to look for a job than you really are. But it seems that the government have now reversed this to some extent - and I suspect that genuinely ill people probably now find it easier to get JSA than to be signed off with their real illness. So they don't bother arguing the toss about their illness any more, until they get hit with New Deal.
But how can you know? I guess the only way of measuring this is to look at New Deal referral outcomes.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
You seem to be overlooking the possibility that he might have been badgered into it by a workfare scheme for the long-term unemployed.
Was he long-term unemployed? Or did he choose it? Let's not leap to conclusions here. It's only one possibility out of several. We don't know anything about his personal circumstances.
Your argument strikes me as specious. You seem to be arguing that his problems are his own fault, because he must have known the terms and conditions of his job before he took it on - and yet the possibility of circumstances that may have forced his hand, in spite of his grievances, are irrelevant somehow.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Well, he doesn't have to worry about having a low paid job any more, does he?
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Biscuitnapper
Apprentice
# 15182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
n my experience in Lambeth in the late 1980's - yes without any doubt.
Lets get this straight. You think that your experience from thirty years ago is more relevant to what happened this week than what hundreds of people who were actually there saw and reported?
Can we have your crystal ball please? We obviously need it.
Well if it helps, I am a black twenty something lower middle class woman and I think it's true: depending on the area there's a lot of tension and distrust between the different ethnic minorities, particularly the black and asian communities (there's also a good deal of distrust within the black community: I'm Nigerian and some of the worst I've ever heard about Afro-Carribeans were said by other Africans). I tend to find the multicultural nature of London is often (but certainly not always!) little more than skin deep and disguises issues that bubble beneath the surface until something triggers a reaction.
Also, yes, there is more of a push coming from the churches when it comes to encouraging young fathers to stick around, marital fidelity, high achievement etc etc. but these things take time to come into effect, I suppose, as new generations grow up and replace the older.
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Hear me ramble
Posts: 10 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That there are those who take advantage of a situation, none here are debating. There would be nothing to take advantage of without the underlying causes which sparked th riot.
Even many of those who are merely looting and burning may be doing so out of pent up frustration even if they do not articulate this.
Not that this is one iota of excuse.
ETA: Response to Adeodatus, not FC.
Yes, I was wondering if it might be akin to cutting.
I don't know how it's playing out there in UK, but here in LA, the two significant riots we had only further impoverished desperately poor inner-city communities, wealthy privileged suburbanites were not significantly impacted. Similarly, "cutters" are obviously hurting mostly themselves.
As I understand it, "cutters" are thought to be motivated by a need to have some sort of physical expression of their inner pain/turmoil. So perhaps riots could be seen as similar sorts of exercises (not to discount, again, the opportunists who use a riot for their own economic and/or political gain)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Biscuitnapper:
... depending on the area there's a lot of tension and distrust between the different ethnic minorities, particularly the black and asian communities...
Of course, no-one could deny that. What they were saying though was that black rioters were targeting Asian shops in London on Monday. And that is simply not the case - not all the looters were black (many were white, some were Asian) and the small corner shops were less likely to be attacked than the chain stores.
What he was saying was that because he had seen conflict between blacks and Asians in Lambeth thirty years ago therefore he knew what was going on now. That's nonsense.
Maybe things are different in Manchester or Birmingham but, so far, that is not what happened here.
[ 10. August 2011, 20:40: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
n my experience in Lambeth in the late 1980's - yes without any doubt.
Lets get this straight. You think that your experience from thirty years ago is more relevant to what happened this week than what hundreds of people who were actually there saw and reported?
Can we have your crystal ball please? We obviously need it.
It's on its way - light for you too!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
A lot of the rioting looked like flash mobs and I don't think there's be much rational thinking going on in such mobs, not when things start kicking off. A key element in mob violence is anonymity and a loss of self-awareness. It usually only takes a few leaders making suggestions and everyone follows. Vigilante groups can easily turn into mobs too ,which the police are well aware of.
[ 10. August 2011, 21:09: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
You'll be blaming poor people for their own poverty next.
Well, if they did not wish to be poor, they'd simply apply themselves and be rich, innit. Be driving Ferrari's just like the rest of you lot.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
One of the recent joys that may have passed people by are Child Curfew Schemes. We had one in place locally for the town centre, including the road I live in for, I think, 3 years and it didn't start at 9pm, but 7pm. This is a market town just outside London. In that time any youngster walking home from Guides or Scouts, ATC or Army Cadets, bell-ringing or choir practice was likely to be accosted by the police and questioned. It's a variation of being stopped for Walking While Black, it's Walking While Young - and it was disastrous for police relations in the local community. When it came up for renewal, it wasn't because it had caused so many problems.
It's stuff like this that's damaged relationships and removed respect.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I don't think you ought to equate stealing and direct harm. Property rights are not natural rights
. I'm really quite shocked by this. Quite apart from this being a foundation of our democracy, I guess the guy who wrote 'Thou shalt not steal didn't get your memo. quote:
Different social groups can have different attitudes to property. Secondly, I think that although stealing from a company is hurting people it is not clear that it is hurting anyone in particular.
Try telling that to Graham Reeves and other small business owners who have had their livelihoods destroyed by these thugs. If certain groups don't believe in property rights then they are wrong and if individuals in such groups act that out then they need to be told that by a lengthy custodial sentence
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Comparing the rioters to the Libyan rebels or Syrian protestors is an insult to the people of those countries. The revolting behaviour of these yobs such as robbing an injured man bears no comparison. Frankly, right now I don't give a monkeys why these fuckers are doing it, just that they are stopped, caught and locked up for a very long time. Enough of the relativistic liberal hand-wringing! Much good it has done us all these years!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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jrrt01
Shipmate
# 11264
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Posted
The estimated cost of damage from looting and riots is around £100 million so far.
Maybe as well as revisiting cutting police budgets, it is also time to revisit cutting youth services budgets?
Posts: 62 | From: Manchester | Registered: Apr 2006
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
I don't think you ought to equate stealing and direct harm. Property rights are not natural rights
Most people would dispute this I think. The California Constitution articulated them thusly: "defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy."
quote:
Different social groups can have different attitudes to property.
And why should we adhere to the values of a group which accepts wanton stealing as permissible? We're not Marxists after all. And, in any case, they're not stealing from the landed gentry. They're stealing from the working classes.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrrt01:
The estimated cost of damage from looting and riots is around £100 million so far.
Maybe as well as revisiting cutting police budgets, it is also time to revisit cutting youth services budgets?
That's always been my problem with this - that we invest more in the strata which caused the riots in the first place. I can see all the sound/economic reasons for this, BUT it doesn't seem right. Surely we should be punishing them, not rewarding them by investing more heavily in services which they are likely to require.
I know the concept is not going to be popular but I wonder whether there is any truth to the recent revival of the distinction between the deserving and undeserving poor.
Oh and as for the £100 million - sigh - at a time of austerity, even more austerity is going to arise, because the money will be coming from the communities that have been damaged. This is just the tangible costs. What about the other costs such as prisons, the criminalisation of a large group of first-offenders, the emotional impact on the community, and also wider issues such as the damage to the London brand? And this is why I sometimes feel that for some people, they really do have only themselves to blame for their condition.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
quote:
I don't think you ought to equate stealing and direct harm. Property rights are not natural rights
Most people would dispute this I think. The California Constitution articulated them thusly: "defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy."
Yadda, yadda, yadda. If your car is taken you'll be annoyed. If your business is firebombed you'll feel a lot worse: anger, sorrow (yeah, real tears), but if you are beaten up you'll feel a whole lot worse. Constitutional rights are not natural rights.
quote:
quote:
Different social groups can have different attitudes to property.
And why should we adhere to the values of a group which accepts wanton stealing as permissible? We're not Marxists after all. And, in any case, they're not stealing from the landed gentry. They're stealing from the working classes.
Who are 'We'?!? In any event 'Property is theft' was coined by Proudhon, the French anarchist, and Marx was critical of his assertion. Socialists, communists and anarchists are so different as not even to be on a continuum.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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angelicum
Shipmate
# 13515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
quote:
I don't think you ought to equate stealing and direct harm. Property rights are not natural rights
Most people would dispute this I think. The California Constitution articulated them thusly: "defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy."
Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Wow. Rude much?
quote:
If your car is taken you'll be annoyed.
I'd be a whole lot worse than annoyed.
quote:
but if you are beaten up you'll feel a whole lot worse.
Depends on how badly I am beaten up I think. I can think of scenarios where I would prefer assault/GBH to having my life's investment firebombed, or all my savings stolen.
quote:
Constitutional rights are not natural rights.
Never said they were. I know the distinction between legal and natural rights. I was however saying that the idea that property rights are not natural rights would be disputed by many people - and gave one example where the California constitution lists these inalienable rights with property being one of them.
quote:
Who are 'We'?!?
I'll rephrase that - the we in this case should be British society, which rely heavily on Judaeo-Christian philosophy.
Posts: 364 | From: Full in the panting heart | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Frankly, right now I don't give a monkeys why these fuckers are doing it, just that they are stopped, caught and locked up for a very long time.
If y'all don't come to grips with why it happened and do something about it, you will just have it happen again and again and again.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Comparing the rioters to the Libyan rebels or Syrian protestors is an insult to the people of those countries.
I don't think they were claiming a moral equivalence. Just pointing out that when stuff was going on that disrupts normal life then some people start robbing. And bad things are done on all sides.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrrt01:
The estimated cost of damage from looting and riots is around £100 million so far.
So rather less than one tenth of one percent of what the bankers took off us in 2008/9. And when I say "took" I mean we paid it to them from our taxes and by increasing our debt.
Or about a fifth of a percent of the damage from the London stock exchange fall of the last two weeks.
The financial shenanigans of the last three or four years have cost the average British taxpayer a few thousand pounds. 100 million is 2p a week each. If we are going to make this a matter of business let's get it in scale.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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