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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: 'New church' Restorationism - then and now (Page 11)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: 'New church' Restorationism - then and now
Mark Wuntoo
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Just want to add, although not sure what conclusions, if any, can be drawn from my expoerience.

I attended three new churches over a period in excess of 4 years (all of them for the whole period) as a covert researcher. There was never a long period of non-attendance and at one (perhaps two) I was a weekly attender either on a Sunday or mid-week. Although they 'knew' me well, I was not seen as any sort of threat and my body language told them I was not a charismatic. I was never encouraged to join, not even after I had attended a commitment course in two of them. They knew I was a member of another church.

One of the churches, on learning that I was to travel overseas on a pastoral visit (I had a background in the ministry which they knew about), invited me to the front and prayed over me (very moving and supportive).

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Saul the Apostle
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The cultic meetings require absolute devotion. Whether there are younger children or not.

As part of that devotion a 100% committment must be in evidence. This strangely enough often equates to a total male leadership utilising a mainly female cadre of highly motivated followers.

The menfolk are often committed but not ususally in quite the same full on way. They are often more sceptical and find the male leadership a threat to their own home/family alpha male role.

I am only saying this from my knowledge of a range of (ten or so) charismatic churches I have had knowledge of throughout the UK.

There was/ is often a strong anti intellectualism too. A disdain for scholarship and learning, the usually male leadership would not accept theological training and leaders were often home grown. They were often selected for their speaking ability and to a degree looks.

I think, to be fair, this scenario STILL exists in the UK but post modernism and emergent church tendencies are making inroads into charismatic circles these days. So you may find candles, coffee and couches where the church meets and a pseudo liturgical service, with a ''mish mash'' of styles and types of worship. However the amplifier is still king and ecstatic and very loud worship is very common place. This makes an atmosphere which lends itself to enthusiastic displays of worship and participants may work themselves into a self engendered ecstastic level.

Saul

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The cultic meetings require absolute devotion. Whether there are younger children or not.

As part of that devotion a 100% committment must be in evidence. This strangely enough often equates to a total male leadership utilising a mainly female cadre of highly motivated followers.

The menfolk are often committed but not ususally in quite the same full on way. They are often more sceptical and find the male leadership a threat to their own home/family alpha male role.

'In fairness', the Restorationist outfits have managed in parts to have quite large numbers of reasonably committed males committed to their church.

Again a lot of it is centered around activities, but perhaps that's inevitable?

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Arminian
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There are definitely cultish aspect of some of these denominations.

1) So many meetings requiring 100% commitment that members often don't have outside friends or activities.

2) Only speakers and materials from within the denomination are allowed.

3) A requirement to tithe, which may be unspoken. My NF church didn't formally require it but the introduction to church life booklet implied a possible curse for those who didn't give to the local church. This in some ways was worse than legalistic tithing. Either way as tithing is not found in the New Testament I rate it as spiritual abuse.

4) A 'spiritual' hierarchy that could only be entered by total commitment and tithing.

5) An inability to challenge doctrine or leadership decisions.

6) No say in how the money is spent.

Whatever they are trying to restore it sure ain't the New Testament church.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Do members of Restorationist churches not have young children who sometimes need looking after in the evenings?

Or are parents expected to pay for a babysitter every time there's a home group?

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough.

It's not that everyone is expected to be at every meeting, more that you might be expected to be at church events in preference to anything else going on in the big wide world.

[ 27. January 2012, 18:07: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Gamaliel
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I'd broadly agree with Chris and South Bank Kevin on all of this. I often think that it's significant that my eventual departure from restorationism (after a long period of unease, if indeed I ever really felt comfortable) came at the time my kids grew beyond toddlerdom and into full childhood and as my career became more managerial.

The level of fellowship and support can be very encouraging - no shortage of babysitters - but it can be stifling and crowd out other things and other activities. I started to write poetry and get involved with more non-church activities too as I eased away from restorationism. I'm sure this was connected too.

The Baptist church we attended next was quite homogenous but it was a breath of fresh air. I'm still very grateful to it as a kind of de-restorationising decompression chamber.

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Enoch
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I can't remember whether I've mentioned this before. About 40 years ago, I knew slightly a couple who had been thrown out of a small freelance church for not attending church one Sunday evening.

I suspect the leader also thought they might not be totally sold on his concept of his own authority. From things they had said, if that was what he suspected, he was right - and so were they. But the official reason was that by not being there, they were showing they were not properly committed.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
1) So many meetings requiring 100% commitment that members often don't have outside friends or activities.

2) Only speakers and materials from within the denomination are allowed.

3) A requirement to tithe, which may be unspoken. My NF church didn't formally require it but the introduction to church life booklet implied a possible curse for those who didn't give to the local church. This in some ways was worse than legalistic tithing. Either way as tithing is not found in the New Testament I rate it as spiritual abuse.

4) A 'spiritual' hierarchy that could only be entered by total commitment and tithing.

5) An inability to challenge doctrine or leadership decisions.

6) No say in how the money is spent.

Whatever they are trying to restore it sure ain't the New Testament church.

Most of the list sounds like a nearby Methodist church! Well, #1, it's not that thou shalt be too busy in church for any outside friendships, but I was scolded for volunteering at the public library, you are suppose to devote all your volunteer time to the church or you are dissing the church and its many needs for volunteers.

#2 definitely only Methodist materials are allowed; except the music can come from anywhere and teach just about anything.

#3 tithing is spoken of as an expectation or goal in every denomination I've met, although ignored by the congregations.

#4 several mainline churches I've been in the official hierarchy dislikes people turning to other than them as the experts, and may try to quietly force out the ones the congregation turns to for prayer and advice because of respect for their spiritual awareness.

#5 & 6 any mainline I've been in there's really no mechanism for challenging doctrine or leadership, theoretically there's a procedure but the hierarchy protects it's own so complaint to the Bishop accomplishes nothing. A few insiders make money decisions and report to the church once a year but no discission of the decisions is allowed.

Just sayin' part of why it's hard to tell a "bad" church from an average one is a lot of the problems are on continuums, not one church saying X while another says Not-X.

(I have never been to or been aware of a church that calls itself "Restorationist" so I can't participate in that aspect of the conversation.)

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Jack the Lass

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Barrea I'm delighted to see you back too, hope you're recovering from your hospital stay. I'm also finding the thread really interesting, even though my background isn't restorationism - from 1990-2003ish I went to Ichthus in London. There were a multitude of reasons why I left, but with the benefit of nearly a decade's worth of hindsight, I can honestly say that, in my experience at least there was none of the authoritarianism that seems to be a feature of restorationism (at least that is my impression from this thread). Although I think the split of 2003 (not why I left BTW) had something to do with authoritarianism possibly higher up in the food chain? I get the impression that's been ironed out, though I am observing from a considerable distance.

I do have a vague memory of Terry Virgo preaching at Ichthus celebrations at least once and probably more - which I thought was interesting given Ichthus's very different views on women in leadership etc.

To be honest my abiding memory of my last few years there was not of authoritarianism but of embarrassment - I started working with a group of people who talked about religion a lot, asked me about my church, and I realised I would be mortified if any of them actually turned up to my congregation on a Sunday morning!

Anyway. I wanted to say a continuing thanks for the thread, which I'm finding fascinating.

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The Restorationist
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Hello I am new to the site and was reading with interest peoples posts so thought I would register to give a slightly different perspective.

I have been part of so called "Restorationist" Churches for 28 years and thought you might like to hear from someone who is very much involved.

My current Church for the last 9 years is a NF Church, prior to that I had been part of 3 Churches linked to what was Covenant Ministries and then a Lifelink Church.

Every church we were part of had a different flavour with different strengths and weaknesses depending on the particular emphasis and vision of that church. My experience of the people and leadership has generally been (with a few exceptions) that they genuinely love God and one another and have a passion to see church worked out in reality as close to the New Testament model as possible. How that translates in practice differs and people make mistakes, but sometimes we manage to get things right too.

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Eutychus
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Welcome aboard!

If you read carefully you'll find there are a couple of people posting on the Ship from NF churches (not sure if any other restorationist movements are represented).

For my part, I've little doubt that most people are well-intentioned. I am concerned that the theology and the system doesn't always make for that working out as well as it might, though. I also tend to think that the less hard-core restorationist the church is, the less likely things are to go wrong.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The level of fellowship and support can be very encouraging - no shortage of babysitters - but it can be stifling and crowd out other things and other activities. I started to write poetry and get involved with more non-church activities too as I eased away from restorationism. I'm sure this was connected too.

Tee hee, "you turned your back on the gatherings of the people of God to pursue secular activities? [Eek!] [Ultra confused] [Confused] Backslider!" Tee hee. Me too.

I'm intrigued by the conversation, I may have to read the first ten pages. Seems to me the issues are about ways churches can become distorted, under any label.

A friend said at their previous church she was in church seven evenings a week, she missed that. (Her current church has activities only 4 days per week.) Puzzled, I asked when was family time? When did the kids do homework? She looked puzzled and said "after church?" But they don't get home til 9 PM!

Another -- well, I thought it was a friend -- gal I'd known in a prayer group several years mentioned her daughter's recent wedding. I said I wish I had known, I would have come to the wedding. She said if you want to know what is going on you have to go to church. By which she meant go to her church. The wedding invitation was an announcement in church.

Not a Restorationist Church. Just that for some *people* church = friendship circles. Maybe it's easier, you don't have to plan times and activities together, you just go to church. Because there's been no one-on-one contact planning to do things together, there's no one-to-one contact after someone leaves that church, no continuing friendships with people who leave.

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The Restorationist
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Hello Eutycus

Thanks for your welcome. I didnt read every post so I might well have missed some fellow NF's posting.

I was thinking about what you said about the 'more hard core restorationist the more likely to go wrong'. I think it depends what you mean by gone wrong.

If you mean "The more you have an unaccountable controlling manipulative leader the more likely it is to go wrong .... I would agree 100%. That however is not my experience (apart from on 2 occassions that have come to mind) and is the opposite of the new testiment model of leadership therefore by definition the opposite of "hard core restoration" that seeks to emulate the new testament.

Or by go wrong do you mean the church not growing, people leaving, no sense of Gods presence etc. I'd be interested to know why you think a restorationist model would be more prone to this?

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Mark Wuntoo
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Just remembered a phrase from the dim past.

'So heavenly minded that we are no earthly good.'

[Snigger]

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
The cultic meetings require absolute devotion. Whether there are younger children or not.

As part of that devotion a 100% committment must be in evidence. This strangely enough often equates to a total male leadership utilising a mainly female cadre of highly motivated followers.

The menfolk are often committed but not ususally in quite the same full on way. They are often more sceptical and find the male leadership a threat to their own home/family alpha male role.

'In fairness', the Restorationist outfits have managed in parts to have quite large numbers of reasonably committed males committed to their church.

Again a lot of it is centered around activities, but perhaps that's inevitable?

Yes I agree. But often, the ones who do a lot of the ''schlepping'' around and the general bread and butter work were/are females; this is no unusual for any church to be fair (in the UK 75% of most churches are female).

I say this as a male.

My observations are based on travelling around the UK recently and attending several of these types of churches (occasionally).

Definitely the 'old style' charismatic fellowships are changing now. Much less the traditional authoritarian style.

Saul

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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by The Restorationist:
the opposite of the new testiment model of leadership therefore by definition the opposite of "hard core restoration" that seeks to emulate the new testament. (...) I'd be interested to know why you think a restorationist model would be more prone to this?

I think you need to do some more reading of the thread...

In short, I think that attempting to return to a "new testament model of leadership" is a chimera and that pursuing it is quite likely to lead to the sort of problems that have been discussed here. If you want to know why I think this, see here...

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Arminian
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Interesting that the Methodists are similar. I guess most denominations are a pyramid hierarchical model. What makes it worse with the Restorationalists is that they claim that it is God's model and therefore beyond criticism. If you dare to step out of line and refuse to submit you are doing so against God. This is where the abuse damages people, because it is based perhaps unintentionally on a lie.

What is being restored is not the New Testament model. Most Christians do not realize this.

If New Frontiers or any other denomination wants a New Testament model they need to do the following :

Spiritual 'authority' comes from service and sacrifice. As Jesus taught you must serve others. In these denominations they claim this for their leadership, but they don't actually do it. If St Paul was the example they should do what he did. Get a part time job and don't expect other Christians to pay your wages (Paul supported himself financially). Go out witnessing to the most difficult areas. Get you head regularly kicked in. Risk death. Heal the sick and raise the dead. This is pretty close to what John Wesley and William Booth did.

Churches. Go back to small groups of no more than 30. Allow all to speak in meetings. Get rid of the sermon. Don't allow any individual to dominate the services.

Stop tithing. Give to the poor and other believers in need. Share your possessions.

Have a proper meal for a Lords supper. Enjoy it as a celebration.

Have no spiritual hierarchy of believers or churches. Pauls letters were not addressed to bishops or anointed leaders - they were always to believers as a whole. Appoint elders who are mature Christians to function as hosts in small groups.

Rely on the Holy Spirit to direct meetings. (The early church didn't have Bibles).


My gripe with Restorationalists is that they falsely use their claim of restoring the New Testament church to justify their structure as beyond criticism. This is spiritual abuse because it abuses the Bible to justify lording it over other believers. It is in my opinion corporate sin when it attempts to justify tithing with authoritarian leadership. This is not the structure given to us by Paul or Jesus.

There is no evidence that any Christian tithed to a church for 800 years. Even in the 4th century church leaders lamented that Christians wouldn't tithe to them. Old Testament tithing was only on food producers and never allowed priests to own property. Any church minister who attempts to preach tithing is abusing scripture to line his wallet if he owns property. There are plenty of Old Testament examples of priests dealing falsely for personal gain, and none of them were blessed by God.

Wolves are hierarchical creatures. They are obsessed with who is in charge. Just because some of them look and sound like sheep doesn't make them sheep. The first shall be last and the last first.

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South Coast Kevin
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Arminian - [Overused]

Does your church meet (or have you ever been involved in a church that met) in the way you've just described?

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Saul the Apostle
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Arminian said:
quote:
My gripe with Restorationalists is that they falsely use their claim of restoring the New Testament church to justify their structure as beyond criticism. This is spiritual abuse because it abuses the Bible to justify lording it over other believers. It is in my opinion corporate sin when it attempts to justify tithing with authoritarian leadership. This is not the structure given to us by Paul or Jesus.
I agree with your post and this quote in particular.

The most difficult person to have a dialogue with is the person who says: ''God told me to do.....''

Overall, I think your post is about servant leadership, when a lot of church (the restorationists being prime examples here) are hierarchical and status ridden.

The fairly unique aspect of restorationism was the utterly vain and false premise that they were replacing all church traditions/denominations. It was and is, utter cant. This sort of spiritual fascism meant that restoration theology and organisations represented the equivalent of the Nazi stormtroopers the SS, of the charismatic world. The denominational streams would all flow into this renewed and restored 'new' church. How anyone could fall for this I just don't know. Maybe it's about revolution and there is a time when countries are ripe for change; perhaps as in the secular world, these storm troopers hoped to seize the high ground and change the world. Who really knows.

The tithe can be a form of organisational control and of course the full time paid church leaders are very happy to have 10% of all the attendees incomes. Nice little earner.

Saul

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle
The most difficult person to have a dialogue with is the person who says: ''God told me to do.....''

I disagree. I find "God has told me that you must..." or "mustn't...", is even more difficult to have a dialogue with.

I suspect this may put me outside the Pale with some people, but I have serious doubts whether there is any basis for the view that Acts and the Epistles contain a blueprint for church administration, the implementation of which is either required or is a prerequisite for receiving God's full blessing.

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Arminian
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South Coast Kevin wrote :
quote:
Does your church meet (or have you ever been involved in a church that met) in the way you've just described?
No I've never been to any church that meets like that ! Not in 40 years of church attendance. I would quite like to give it a go at some point. There are disadvantages to the early church model too, frankly it was a bit of a mess, hence Paul's letters to correct lots of error.

I'm at a C of E church which I enjoy, having left NF. I don't have a problem with big church, hierarchies, paid ministry or the like as long as those involved admit that it wasn't the early church blueprint. At least you can then challenge what is going on or how its organized.

The dire problem with Restorationalism is that once you give the leadership a divine right to rule you are in deep trouble if they become controlling or covetous. Church history shows that this particular hierarchical model never works for long before it becomes corrupt. I would suggest that the relatively large salaries that some of the Restorationalists pay themselves are the first step towards this. Other signs are leaders pushing off pastoral care onto unpaid volunteers, continually demanding more money to attend conferences around the world, becoming remote from their congregations, failing to reach or desire consensus on matters of church business, failing to be accountable in any reasonable way to the congregation for how they spend the money or make decisions, refusing to engage in serious Biblical debate on matters of doctrine, and an unwillingness to get out on the street and share the gospel.

I forgot to mention in the previous reply that having one chief apostle is also not part of the New Testament model. If they want to restore the early church there can be no single leader on a high salary. Why do I suspect there will be no takers for this ? [Big Grin]

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I would suggest that the relatively large salaries that some of the Restorationalists pay themselves are the first step towards this.

What are they paid? I've heard that they don't make that much, but no one has ever given me an actual figure. 'That much' is pretty reletive:

"I don't make 'that much' (compared to Benny Hinn)." [Devil]

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I would suggest that the relatively large salaries that some of the Restorationalists pay themselves are the first step towards this.

What are they paid? I've heard that they don't make that much, but no one has ever given me an actual figure. 'That much' is pretty reletive:

"I don't make 'that much' (compared to Benny Hinn)." [Devil]

I did a bit of digging.

I am not or ever have been a member of ''The Clarendon Trust'', but as a charity they have to submit annual reports. These are easy to view and are open to public scrutiny.

I believe this is New Frontiers based in Brighton East Sussex.

They have 3 Trustees they are below and they receive per year:

SJ Horne - £41,656 plus £3k pension
N. Jones - £43,525 plus £3k pension
ND Ring £42,656 plus £9k pension


Gross salaries for the organisation are per annum:

£1,175,169 (this doesn't include pensions and social security payments)

They only include gross salaries and do not name individual recipients.

Saul

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:


They have 3 Trustees they are below and they receive per year:

SJ Horne - £41,656 plus £3k pension
N. Jones - £43,525 plus £3k pension
ND Ring £42,656 plus £9k pension

How much is that according to British standards?

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Saul the Apostle
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The figures I posted for ''The Clarendon Trust'' are for the year 2010.

I couldn't find how many salaried staff they actually employ.

If they have only ONE SALARIED STAFF he will be on over one million pounds per year ( However I suspect there are a few salaried staff bumping around).

Saul [Biased]

[ 28. January 2012, 15:36: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Interesting that the Methodists are similar. I guess most denominations are a pyramid hierarchical model. What makes it worse with the Restorationalists is that they claim that it is God's model and therefore beyond criticism.

Far as I can tell, all the churches claim to be God's model, or set up by God, or the best church even if not the One True Church -- think Catholic. It does lead to pompous arrogance among too many clergy. Not all
quote:
If ...any denomination wants a New Testament model they need to do the following :

Spiritual 'authority' comes from service and sacrifice. As Jesus taught you must serve others. In these denominations they claim this for their leadership, but they don't actually do it. If St Paul was the example they should do what he did. Get a part time job and don't expect other Christians to pay your wages (Paul supported himself financially). Go out witnessing to the most difficult areas. Get you head regularly kicked in. Risk death. Heal the sick and raise the dead. This is pretty close to what John Wesley and William Booth did.

Churches. Go back to small groups of no more than 30. Allow all to speak in meetings. Get rid of the sermon. Don't allow any individual to dominate the services.

Stop tithing. Give to the poor and other believers in need. Share your possessions.

Have a proper meal for a Lords supper. Enjoy it as a celebration.

Have no spiritual hierarchy of believers or churches. Pauls letters were not addressed to bishops or anointed leaders - they were always to believers as a whole. Appoint elders who are mature Christians to function as hosts in small groups.

Rely on the Holy Spirit to direct meetings. (The early church didn't have Bibles).

I've dropped out again, churchgoing isn't worth the stress, but if I could find a church with half of that! Sigh.

Some problems -- how does a newcomer in town find such a little gathering? How can you invite a friend to church if it's hit it's size limit? And when a group grows big enough to split, people don't want to split and separate from half their friends. And few homes hold 20 or more so you need to think about renting a space (or meet in as restaurant back room and everyone buys a meal, but that leaves out the poor who can't afford a restaurant meal), and if there is no leader with authority to call a halt to something wrong going on (bad theology, prayer requests used as gossip, etc) the group can be destroyed by one person persistently distorting it. I've been in all these situations, especially the difficulty of finding a home group.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
South Coast Kevin wrote :
quote:
Does your church meet (or have you ever been involved in a church that met) in the way you've just described?
No I've never been to any church that meets like that ! Not in 40 years of church attendance. I would quite like to give it a go at some point.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I've dropped out again, churchgoing isn't worth the stress, but if I could find a church with half of that! Sigh.

Right, there's three of us then - one in London, one in Texas and me in the south of England...
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Some problems -- how does a newcomer in town find such a little gathering? How can you invite a friend to church if it's hit it's size limit? And when a group grows big enough to split, people don't want to split and separate from half their friends.

There are definitely problems but apparently these can be overcome. Here are a few resources I've looked at, which give case studies, ideas and inspiration for people wishing to meet as church in the way that Arminian described:

Emergent Village
New Monasticism
Frank Viola's website

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:


They have 3 Trustees they are below and they receive per year:

SJ Horne - £41,656 plus £3k pension
N. Jones - £43,525 plus £3k pension
ND Ring £42,656 plus £9k pension

How much is that according to British standards?
IL,

Often Trustees do their work for free. Obviously these three do not. A salary of that nature is a middle managerial salary in the UK. With the pension it is a good salary and they could live comfortably on such a figure.

It is interesting that Clarendon Trust do not specify individual salary amounts; they could do so and many churches in fact do that for clarity and openness.

Saul

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Often Trustees do their work for free. Obviously these three do not. A salary of that nature is a middle managerial salary in the UK. With the pension it is a good salary and they could live comfortably on such a figure.

In fact it's usual (and, I'd say, basic good practice) for the role of trustee and employee within a UK charity to be kept thoroughly separate. It's also a legal requirement (I think) for trustees not to be paid for fulfilling their duties as trustees, although they can be paid for other duties they carry out.

Having said that, it does seem to be standard practice in churches that are charitable organisations in their own right (like my own) for one or more of the paid staff to also be trustees. And I'd agree that the salaries quoted above are pretty high, although nowhere near investment banker territory... [Big Grin]

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Baptist Trainfan
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Kevin, I think you may be, albeit unintentionally, sailing rather close to the wind on this.

For instance, although Baptist ministers (who are, ipso facto, Managing Trustees) can be paid, this is only due to long-time precedent. We were told some time ago that paid Church Administrators could not become Deacons or Elders (and, hence, Trustees) as this would violate Charity law, even though it was not the Trustee work they were being paid for.

On the other hand, the Clarendon Trust are clearly doing everything above board and properly; I guess the Charity Commission would have told them if they were doing anything untoward.

[ 28. January 2012, 17:48: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On the other hand, the Clarendon Trust are clearly doing everything above board and properly; I guess the Charity Commission would have told them if they were doing anything untoward.

Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. The arrangement is similar at my church, where the senior pastor is one of the trustees. I was just making the general point that I've only come across this arrangement with churches; it's normal practice in charities for the paid staff not to be charity trustees (also known as management committee members, directors etc.).

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Saul the Apostle
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The Clarendon Trust would do well to specify individual salaries for openness and clarity.

I am not a member of this church, or never have been, but if I was and I was paying towards over one million pounds of salary per year, I'd like to see a clear breakdown.

Maybe some of our NFI Ship mates can help out with this?

Saul

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Eutychus
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When I looked into this, one person paid by Clarendon Trust was earning between £60k and £70k per year. This would not include gifts, travel, hospitality, and so on.

That said, while it depends how you measure, having stayed in that person's house I would not have described their lifestyle as being particularly lavish. My main criticism at the time was that the information was not very transparent for a number of reasons.

I don't think there's been much scandal in hard-core restorationism about financial misdealings, but I do think that the top-down authority structure discouraged a healthy attitude to financial matters. Questions about finances were interpreted as a lack of trust in the leadership.

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
When I looked into this, one person paid by Clarendon Trust was earning between £60k and £70k per year. This would not include gifts, travel, hospitality, and so on.

That said, while it depends how you measure, having stayed in that person's house I would not have described their lifestyle as being particularly lavish. My main criticism at the time was that the information was not very transparent for a number of reasons.

I don't think there's been much scandal in hard-core restorationism about financial misdealings, but I do think that the top-down authority structure discouraged a healthy attitude to financial matters. Questions about finances were interpreted as a lack of trust in the leadership.

Eutychus,

yes I agree with you, but the transparency is important (I would say Clarendon is legal but NOT wholly transparent) and with a salary bill of over £1 million per annum, plus three very highly paid trustees, there's some serious renumeration going on here.

A lot of charismatic churches , will of course , submit charity commission returns (they have to by law), but will also, I understand, not have any accountability to their wider congregations. Please note I am not talking about one church here in particular, more noting a general trend amongst these type of cultic organisations. Clarendon is doing everything right - by the letter - if not the spirit of the law IMHO. If any church is doling out salaries well over £1 million per year detailed questions should be being asked.

There doesn't have to be an annual meeting and as long as the returns are submitted, legal, and available for members to see, that is the extent of congregational accountability. Full stop. Recipe for church abuse - especially in the case of Clarendon - they have such a high income and no breakdown of salaries.

Generally I think you are right, as here in the UK we do not have charlatans like Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar et al (yes that is his real name). So in that sense we've got off lightly. It's the LACK of accountability that is apparent with a top down rigidly authoritarian structure, with a leadership who is clear: ''God told me/us.''

Faced with this sort of attitude there is little anyone can do if it does go belly up! Except pray for the leadership to gain a genuine servant heart and some liberally dolloped humility [Angel]

[ 28. January 2012, 21:44: Message edited by: Saul the Apostle ]

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Gamaliel
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Coming back to the basic premise of restorationism (and yes, the financial aspects are interesting and I'd agree with what's been said on that), it strikes me that there is some kind of consensus here (apart from The Restorationist, one presumes) that the idea of recovering some kind of NT model is a chimera?

If I have made a correct assumption, then I might also submit that South Coast Kevin, Armininian and Belle Ringer are all, to an extent, committing a similar cloud-cuckoo land category error by imagining that the sort of 'ideal' church that Arminian has described:

a) exits

b) is possible for us to create/recreate.

I would submit that even if such a church existed it would immediately be contaminated if any of us - even the likes of nice cuddly South Coast Kevin were to join it.

There's a kind of Donatism at work here.

Years ago, I remember being chastened by the story of the original 'English Separatists', the 'Brownists'. In order to purify themselves from compromise and worldliness, Brown and a handful of others were the first to leave the Established Church (the Church of England) to form what they thought would be a purer and more committed fellowship.

Everything went well for a time, then they started to fall out among themselves. Brown ended up back in the Anglican Church and actually became an Anglican minister. He wrote an account of what they'd done, what had happened and how it all went pear-shaped.

Now, I'm not drawing attention to that to suggest that Baptists, Methodists, URCs, Salvationists, restorationists etc etc should all shut up shop and be absorbed back into the Anglican Church, still less that the CofE herself should be subsumed by (cue creepy music) ... Dahrrnn Darrnnnn Dahrrrnnnnn!! ... Rome (or even Constantinople come to that).

All I am saying is that these kind of idealistic experiments are simply that - idealistic. They might even be magnificent experiments in their own right but ultimately they're chasing a pipe-dream.

A fellowship that didn't have the Bible, say, and 'relied on the leadings of the Holy Spirit' would soon end up in illuminism and error.

One that didn't have any form of heirarchical leadership would very quickly develop its own form of heirarchical leadership ... and so on. Although the Quakers may have successfully avoided that particular pitfall.

I can see why the three of yez would want to belong to a fellowship like that but I can guarantee, if the three of you WERE to join forces in one it'd just be a matter of time until:

- you'd replaced one form of authority structure with another

- you'd have fallen out with one another

- you would have developed whacky doctrines and ideas (some of you have those already ... [Razz] )

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Gamaliel
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Sorry, I meant 'exists' rather than 'exits'.

Exits stage left ...

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I remember being chastened by the story of the original 'English Separatists', the 'Brownists'... Brown ended up back in the Anglican Church and actually became an Anglican minister.

The same has happened in charismatic/Restorationist circles of course. I knew a couple who, back in the 1980s, were very much involved in a "Community Church" set-up. Today they are Parish Churchwardens!
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Gamaliel
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Oh yes, indeed. Which is why I'm drawing the parallel. I know former restorationists who are now Orthodox. I've heard of some who've ended up RC and more who are now Anglican, of course.

Generally, though, other than those who find a conducive home among the Baptists, I've found that most former restorationists end up in loose, informal, prayer-group/ex-church arrangements or else end up outside of any organised form of religion whatsoever.

I've been in email contact with a former restorationist evangelist recently who isn't involved with any church whatsoever and who thinks that Acts is the blue-print and minimum bar-level for what we should expect from church ...

There's an intrinsic Donatism about the whole thing and it's also so brittle that when the promise doesn't deliver it doesn't bend, it breaks.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All I am saying is that these kind of idealistic experiments are simply that - idealistic. They might even be magnificent experiments in their own right but ultimately they're chasing a pipe-dream.

Evidence suggests that these 'idealistic experiments' aren't chasing an impossible dream. Difficult, sure; but not impossible. Here is a (quite lengthy) report from someone who seems to have experienced community in a non-hierarchical, Jesus-centred way that Belle Ringer, Arminian and I are dreaming of.

The too-long-didn't-read version:
quote:
The church meets as a whole on Saturday evenings, where they gather together... The meetings are spontaneous - there’s no order of worship, and no “worship leader” (except the Holy Spirit). They are full of light, life, and love.

But while the meetings were great, the highlight of the trip [to visit this community that the person had heard about] was something that lasted all week long: the community life. These brothers and sisters really do share their lives together. They’re family. Rather than just seeing each other once a week, they’re intimately involved in one another’s lives throughout the whole week.

PS: Cuddly South Coast Kevin... [Hot and Hormonal] [Big Grin]

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Saul the Apostle
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Oh yes, indeed. Which is why I'm drawing the parallel. I know former restorationists who are now Orthodox. I've heard of some who've ended up RC and more who are now Anglican, of course.

Generally, though, other than those who find a conducive home among the Baptists, I've found that most former restorationists end up in loose, informal, prayer-group/ex-church arrangements or else end up outside of any organised form of religion whatsoever.

I've been in email contact with a former restorationist evangelist recently who isn't involved with any church whatsoever and who thinks that Acts is the blue-print and minimum bar-level for what we should expect from church ...

There's an intrinsic Donatism about the whole thing and it's also so brittle that when the promise doesn't deliver it doesn't bend, it breaks.

One well known evangelist/children's worker/song writer is now an officially ordained Anglican Minister or a ''Missioner Deacon'' at a large English cathedral, having been a member of an independent charismatic church for most of his life.

I think that for many charismatic Christians (I include myself here) , being charismatic, is a gradual journey of discovery and often one ends up a long way from where one started. That may often mean being in a traditional denomination, often Anglican, Catholic or Orthodox.

Saul

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Arminian
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quote:
I can see why the three of yez would want to belong to a fellowship like that but I can guarantee, if the three of you WERE to join forces in one it'd just be a matter of time until:

- you'd replaced one form of authority structure with another

- you'd have fallen out with one another

- you would have developed whacky doctrines and ideas (some of you have those already ... [Razz] )

Actually that sounds a lot like the early church ! [Big Grin]

I don't think God gave us a blueprint for church. More like a set of parts, and then says 'OK' how do you want to put them together ?

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin, emphasis mine:
the highlight of the trip [to visit this community that the person had heard about] was something that lasted all week long: the community life. These brothers and sisters really do share their lives together. They’re family.

Have you ever seen Toy Story 3? There's no way you can make a sound appraisal of a community after one week.

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Enoch
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South Coast Kevin, that sounds lovely and I'm sure it is. However, apart from the inspirational phrases, the writer isn't very specific as to in what ways it was so fantastic to be with the good people of Ashbury. There is thought one other thing that makes me question the objectivity of his report. I'll quote the extract that contains it. It's from his preamble, not the report.

Can anyone can guess what it is in this extract that I'm uneasy about?

quote:
What follows is a report from a person who visited one of the organic churches that my co-workers and I planted and are working with presently.


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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Evidence suggests that these 'idealistic experiments' aren't chasing an impossible dream. Difficult, sure; but not impossible. Here is a (quite lengthy) report from someone who seems to have experienced community in a non-hierarchical, Jesus-centred way that Belle Ringer, Arminian and I are dreaming of.

.. and yet when someone I know of approached Frank Viola recently to try and find one of these communities in complete good faith .. :

http://ceruleansanctum.com/2012/01/is-the-organic-house-church-a-myth.html

Two things, firstly as Eutychus rightly points out it is very hard to make a determination of community life in a week. As an outsider there are likely to be all sorts of undercurrents that are just invisible. They don't necessarily have to be harbouring some deep dark secret, they just have to be human. For instance, I've always found my stays at L'Abri to be fairly idyllic, but I know that the experience of people staying there long term is that community is hard work, and filled with all of the problems that normal life entails.

Secondly, there is a base level of 'niceness' in a lot of American groups that is purely cultural, and which can hide a lot of things under the surface. Look how quickly the façade of happy families in various heavy shepherding groups has fallen over the years. Give it time, and a few years and I'm sure you'll get a different take (if nothing else, wait for the inevitable 'tell all' book by one of the children of the group).

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There's no way you can make a sound appraisal of a community after one week.

Agreed, but I just posted the first thing I could find that gave positive feedback of an organic / simple church. I've read more, in books by that Frank Viola guy and also by Alan Hirsch and Neil Cole.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There is thought one other thing that makes me question the objectivity of his report.

Again, I agree - the example I found is not brilliant but it's the first thing I could find online!
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
...there is a base level of 'niceness' in a lot of American groups that is purely cultural, and which can hide a lot of things under the surface. Look how quickly the façade of happy families in various heavy shepherding groups has fallen over the years.

Good point, and thanks for posting that link. Really interesting, and rather sad that a lot of the websites the blogger found were out-dated and full of broken links. I guess that's the nature of this kind of thing, though; a group forms and, in its early enthusiasm, sets up a website. But then the group falls apart (or morphs into something more formal, as happened with the church I'm now a member of) but the website remains online for a while, as a somewhat forlorn testimony to the fact that these groups are often short-lived...

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Eutychus
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I think the moment I suspected emergent church might be a chimera was when I discovered Brian McLaren on Larry King Live having just been voted America's most influential evangelical. It seems hard to get more establishment than that...

As to community, I've previously mentioned the story of the beginnings of the charismatic renewal and the Post Green Community as told in the book Love is our Home. A really close-knit community - apart from when the founding couple scoot off for a break in their family cottage in the Scottish Highlands or go off sailing in their custom-built cutter...

I think we need church structures and aspirations that reflect our earthly reality of sic iustus et peccatur.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Brian McLaren on Larry King Live having just been voted America's most influential evangelical.

Really? Wow, I thought McLaren was proper controversial and all that. Who voted in this poll?

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Gamaliel
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I thought about you, funnily enough, South Coast Kevin, when I attended an Anglican Candlemas service this evening where my wife was singing in the choir. She practices with this choir once a week in exchange for singing at weddings and at particular services on high days and holidays.

I love the candlemas liturgy - it's based on the Presentation of Christ in the Temple of course, with the Nunc Dimittis and so on.

During the service I found myself wondering exactly WHAT would be added if they'd introduced some form of extempore prayer or 'prophecy' or some kind of 'every member ministry' yadda yadda yadda ...

My conclusion was: Not a great deal.

It'd have been like inserting rap lyrics in the middle of TS Eliot's 'Little Gidding'.

I'm not saying I'm against extempore prayer and 'every member ministry' and non-heirarchical ways of doing church etc etc but I don't see how it is any more 'ideal' or a better way of doing things - it can end up extraordinarily toxic.

Oh - and in case you're wondering, the service was led by a female priest/minister ...

And, strangely enough too, both she and her husband (also a vicar) used to be involved with some kind of independent charismatic fellowship ...

Dave Tomlinson, a former R2 'apostle' and of 'The Post Evangelical' fame is now an Anglican priest, of course.

Now, I'm not saying one is right and t'other is wrong ... but what I am saying is that this perfect, wonderful, interactive, Acts-style church doesn't exist. And if it did then you or I would need to steer clear because we'd spoil it.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

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Brian McClaren?

It depends where you're standing, South Coast Kevin. From where I'm standing there's nothing controversial about him at all.

But if I were hyper-Reformed or hyper-charismatic or hyper-fundamentalist then he might begin to look a mite controversial.

It's the same as Rob Bell. Show his material to your average URC or Methodist (and many Baptists these days) and you wouldn't raise an eyebrow. The only people who are fazed by 'Love Wins' and so forth are the real evangelical die-hards.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Some corrections:

It wasn't a poll. He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 25 most influential evangelicals in America in February 2005, and interviewed by Larry King in the same month.

And it's simul iustus. I'm clearly not a real Lutheran.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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