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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Bishops' stance on Jeffrey John
Degs

Friend of dorothy
# 2824

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quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
Actually, my point was that schism is being generated within the Anglican Communion. Far weightier issues than this have already driven a wedge between the Catholic Church and Anglicanism.

Yes, and there are far weightier issues for the Anglican Comunion to concern itself with.

Crippling Third World debt. The devastation brought by AIDS in Africa.

No, forget those. Lets tear the Communion apart over what two men do with their d***s! [Mad]

The recent Primates' meeting came to a very tenuous agreement that each Province should handle this issue in a manner pastorally appropriate for their situation.

This is not being handled sensitively(certainly not pastorally), and some of the nine are, in theory, old enough to know better.

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The preest when he hath sayd and red all: he gyueth the benedyccion upon all those that be there present and then he doth tourne hym from the people retournynge thyther from whens he came.

Posts: 2388 | From: a land that I heard of once in a lullaby | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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David Hope was not subjected to any hounding when he deflected enquiries about his personal life with his famous 'grey area' comment.

Turnbull's importuning in public toilets was brushed under the carpet as a 'youthful indiscretion'. It came out because the papers got hold of it.

Maybe the amount of hounding is connected with stance on other issues? E.g. DH had no problem making a clear statement about women bishops iand as I recall stated he would see the acceptance of women bishops by the C of E as a resigning matter. Michael Turnbull undetook a reveiw of church structures which could be seen as strengthening the centre via the creation of the unelected Archbishops' Council and giving the 'membership' less power.

It's also (sadly) no surprise that someone who is trying to be honest about difficult issues is subject to considerably more bile than those who attempt to retain 'grey areas'. [Frown]

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

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welsh dragon

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# 3249

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Went to prayer meeting in Oxford this morning. Everyone fervently praying over exactly this. Prayers "from the floor" were invited and I found myself praying for the poor bloke in the middle of all of this, who has, after all, said he is committing himself to a life of sexual abstinence...

There was some fervent singing of the chorus "Jesus we enthrone you" (the point being I think that in order to do this you had to make sure there weren't any gay bishops around). During this, I had the mental image of a very sad looking Jesus standing "in the midst of us" as we made a huge fuss over a matter that he never ever mentioned in any of his recorded teachings...

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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I think what we also need to remember is that this issue is one where there is, firstly, supposed to be a continuind dialogue about, and, most importantly, that whilst Bishops 'stand by' every position in the sense of not defying it via actions, there has never been any implication that this means agreeing with it. So, women were not ordained by Bishops before the change allowing this, but Bishops were allowed to have different views.

By the 9 presenting this as a question of 'orthodoxy' (and I would describe Jeffrey John's general theology as certainly orthodox) this is tantamount to trying to close the door on debate by preventing anyone with publicly expressed difference of view from becoming a Bishop.

Jeffrey John has explained that, like many couples, straight and gay, his own relationship no longer includes sex. That is by no means unusual. Given that the Church obsesses only about where willies are placed , I see no reason at all why these Bishops should have any cause for concern from their stated perspective. However, Jeffrey is not altering his inclusive view and belief in change - which is shared by many Bishops, and, as I think these 9 Bishops know, by ++ Rowan himself. This is, indeed, a large part of the agenda of some of the signatories.

I would suggest that they have another agenda which reflects, far more, their deeper unease about gay people more widely. This may explain why their stated position on just about every civil matter involving gay issues has opposed reform - +Liverpool's public support for the retention of Section 28, for example.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Every now and again in the Church of England the comprehensive consensus is put under great strain and the various traditions / emphases / factions ... call them what you will .... become adversarial. What I can't understand is why the clash of the Titans has to happen in the court of the world and its onlookers rather than first and foremost in the counsels of that particular church. There will be a time for public airing but NOT at the beginning of the process. Perhaps there was a race as to who could "jump the gun" first. It's hardly a seemly or appropriate way of going about things I would have thought. Perhaps ecclesiastical party politics is unavoidable in a Church culture that is so deeply permeated by the English way of doing things. I would have thought that the Church's standards would have been higher .... and indeed, more catholic.

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Merseymike
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# 3022

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I think you are right, Gregory, but I have never heard of a group of Bishops ganging up on a prospective Bishop before in a public way. To be fair to both +Oxford and Jeffrey John, they did not ask for matters to be discussed in the public eye. All the running has been made by those who wish Jeffrey to step down.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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dj_ordinaire
Host
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There is another point about this which worries me - there is a ludicrous contradiction in Issues in that it claims that gay priests must be celibate whereas gay laity needn't be. This undermines one of the cornerstones of the Reformation: that the same moral standards should be applied to both priests and laity.

If we can understand JJ saying he will campaign to change this to rescind the requirement for celibacy, could it be that the 9 are "jumping the gun" to kick-start a campaign to go the other way and oblige all gays to be celibate, as in the Roman Church?

And as to "gray-area" ++David, isn't he retiring shortly? I thought the rumour was +Michael (N-A) would be translated there with a brief to aid Christian-Muslim understanding, on which he's an expert. If so, how disappointing this fringe issue should have overtaken his energies.

At least the Bp. of Norwich is doing his usual trick of keeping a low profile....

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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One has to admire the political nature of the no sex / same gender relationship. It is just SO COOL. It breaks the mould and leaves the right wingers no where to go. Still smiling at that one. The great joy of liberals is that when they play the game they really play the game. Soon Bishop Jeffrey will be old news and we will have an openly gay bishop. Works for me.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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I agree with your interpretation of events Mike; it's just that anyone could see this showdown coning sooner or later. It's how things happen in the Church of England. I am sure that RH, JJ and RW knew what would happen and built that into the equation. Perhaps they didn't foresee a direct approach to the press though of this dimension. The only issue really is whether or not they will be a break in episcopal unity (highly unlikely) and a turning off of the financial tap by some congregations, (very likely but hardly significant in the bigger scheme of things).

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

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I agree Pyx. The one thing the right-wingers didn't expect - sensible, abstentious obedience from the man they said was possessed by daemons.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Thats exactly the point, Ordinaire. Thing is, that the 9 know perfectly well that there is no way they could actually implement such a policy, as much as some may like to in their ideal Church( and they would look a mite daft after stressing so much how they stand by 'Issues').

I think the rubicon of compulsory celibacy for gay people was actually jumped then, and with same sex civil partnerships on the horizon, the likelihood of going back is nil. Hence the overblown reaction of the bishops who feel society is drifting away from their 'ideal'. Praise God that IS the case!

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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Yo-Yo
Shipmate
# 2541

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I think the 9 Bishops should all club together to buy Dr John a webcam for his bedroom, then they could reassure the 'orthodox' at any hour of the day or night that no episcopal gay rumpy-pumpy was occurring.

I'd been thinking along those lines too. Maybe the signatories above could be put on a rota and take turns sharing a bed with Dr John and his partner. They could sleep in between them to ensure that nothing untoward occurs. The Bishop of Carlisle could use the time to begin a search for those demons! (this could start a new, very modern, translation of the Bible: "take the demons out of your own rectum before trying to remove..." [Big Grin] )

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"The purpose of life... is to love whoever is around to be loved." - Kurt Vonnegut jnr

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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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...all this goes to show why the indefensible separation of 'orientation' and 'practice' is so very silly. Given that orientation wasn't recognised when the Bible was written, even more so....

Think of Jeffrey John in all this hubbub though. He is a brave man indeed.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

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I_am_not_Job
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# 3634

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Interestingly, Bp Carlisle was at the Church COmmissioners AGM yesterday which ++Rowan was chairing. When he stood up and spoke, the ABp did not let a flicker of a frown cross his brow.
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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568

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quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
During this, I had the mental image of a very sad looking Jesus standing "in the midst of us" as we made a huge fuss over a matter that he never ever mentioned in any of his recorded teachings...

Did he mention bestiality? Drunk driving? Gambling? Pornography? Child abuse? It seems rather an absurdity to imply that anything not specifically forbidden by Jesus in Scripture is therefore permitted.

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by Kyralessa:
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
During this, I had the mental image of a very sad looking Jesus standing "in the midst of us" as we made a huge fuss over a matter that he never ever mentioned in any of his recorded teachings...

Did he mention bestiality? Drunk driving? Gambling? Pornography? Child abuse? It seems rather an absurdity to imply that anything not specifically forbidden by Jesus in Scripture is therefore permitted.
Kyralessa, If you are quick you can apologise for that remark before a host asks you to. It is not acceptable to equate homosexuality with child abuse or many of the other things you point to. Hear this, apologise quickly.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568

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Homosexuality was not the point of my post. The point was that an argument that "Jesus did not mention such-and-such, therefore it's not wrong" is spurious. Whether or not it's wrong must be shown on other grounds. My point was bolstered by examples of things which we know (at this juncture in history) to be pretty obviously wrong but which Jesus also did not mention.

My point was not about homosexuality (about which I did not render a judgment) but about poor argumentation. That point, Pyx_e, you missed.

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Don't say I did not warn you.

As you posted this in a thread explicitly dealing with gay issues the fact that you did not make it clear that you were not referring to homosexuality only points towards your lack of argumentation skills.

To me it looked like you were classifying homosexuality in with that other lot because this is what the thread is about. If you are not doing that I would again advise you to make that clear and be more careful In future.

The reason I missed the point is that you failed to make it.

This has happened many times before on the ship, no one has got away with it yet. Clarify, withdraw, apologise, ignore me. Whatever floats your boat. You could try seeing I have a point.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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'Justus'
Shipmate
# 2424

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quote:
Originally posted by Kyralessa:
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
During this, I had the mental image of a very sad looking Jesus standing "in the midst of us" as we made a huge fuss over a matter that he never ever mentioned in any of his recorded teachings...

Did he mention bestiality? Drunk driving? Gambling? Pornography? Child abuse? It seems rather an absurdity to imply that anything not specifically forbidden by Jesus in Scripture is therefore permitted.
Kyralessa

I think you've missed the point, and then some.

I didn't get from WD's post that she was saying anything not specifically mentioned by Jesus in Scripture is permissable. Rather that Jesus would be looking at this whole situation, shaking his head and asking "WTF?"

Added to which I think Pyx_e's got a good point and you should probably back off on the (im)moral equivalence you seem to be implying.

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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568

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I have apologized for imprudent remarks in the past. However, I will not be bullied into apologizing for a point I did not make.

You may be justified in claiming that I misunderstood welsh dragon's implications...but then I think I'm justified in claiming that you misunderstood mine.

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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welsh dragon

Shipmate
# 3249

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I seem to remember reading that Jesus said - more-or-less - that thinking about adultery was pretty much as bad as adultery itself. He also said, suffer the little children to come unto him, and that if anyone were to hurt them it would be better that a millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. That would seem to do pretty well for pornography and child abuse. At least to me.

I would also argue that loving my neighbour as myself would involve being responsible enough not to murder them by getting smashed and reversing over them. Drink driving seems fairly easy to argue against from Jesus's most basic principles.

The arguments against homosexuality simply don't seem as obvious to me. I would agree that approving of homosexuality goes against the tradition of the church. I also understand that many people do think it wrong, and we have to be careful about giving scandal and spliting the church. But it seems to me to be a different order of difference or "problem" or "sin" to child abuse.

And I still can't see why it is supposed to be so unforgivable...

P.S. I'll find the quotes if you want me to...

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
I think the 9 Bishops should all club together to buy Dr John a webcam for his bedroom, then they could reassure the 'orthodox' at any hour of the day or night that no episcopal gay rumpy-pumpy was occurring.

And then if they give in, they could raise money by selling the tapes... [Killing me]

"Hot episcopal action!" etc.

Kyralessa quoth:
quote:
Certainly the Church has to help every age understand its doctrine; but the notion that the Church is "way behind" popular perceptions implies that the popular perceptions mark progress, whereas quite often they mark the opposite.

[Not worthy!]

I'd suggest that popular perceptions may be good at recognising problems with a previous approach, but not necessarily at coming up with a solution. People may realise they need to add calcium to their diets, but eating chalk is not the way to do it -- yet who can blame them if they are shown no other source?

quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
he also strongly implied that they could be exorcised by the episcopal laying on of hands.

On the butt? Cool.
I wondered about that too. [Killing me]

quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Also known as Edna the Cruel. [Razz]

Agh, Dame Edna in a mitre just popped into my head. "May the peace of the Lord be always with you, possums!" [Killing me]

Gbuchanan: [Not worthy!]

David

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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HOSTING

Kyralessa, as other shipmates have pointed out, the context of your comments suggests some implicit equivalence between homosexuality and bestiality or child abuse. These sorts of implications, even if completely unintentional, have been the cause of a great deal of turmoil on the Ship in the past. As a result, statements of the type which you made are not acceptable here.

Please retract or rephrase your post from 13:31, 19 June, and refrain from making similar comparisons in the future. A wise man might also consider an apology to those any shipmates who he had inadvertently offended.

scot
Purgatory Host

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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Big ol' long post -- lost. [Waterworks]

Summing up...

Yay Pyx_e, Praying for Jeffrey MM, this specific sort of thing is a hot button from way back (I agree with the argument re spuriousness, it's just that people have equated them before and it's been a problem) Kyralessa...

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568

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quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Kyralessa, as other shipmates have pointed out, the context of your comments suggests some implicit equivalence between homosexuality and bestiality or child abuse. These sorts of implications, even if completely unintentional, have been the cause of a great deal of turmoil on the Ship in the past. As a result, statements of the type which you made are not acceptable here.

I notice no one accused me of equating homosexuality with drunk driving or gambling. Perhaps that's because the point of what I posted was actually obvious enough that I shouldn't have had to explain it over and over, but some people are always determined to get their hackles up.

Let's try again, as clearly as possible.

It is not valid to argue for or against the importance of an issue or the sinfulness of an action based on whether or not the words of Jesus as recorded in Scripture mention that issue or action.

This is Purgatory, a place for discussion and debate. If somebody wants to debate that point, I'm game. If somebody wants to start a new thread for it, sounds good.

But if somebody wants to tell me to apologize for saying things I did not say or even imply, then I would reply that the very idea doesn't even make sense.

On the other hand, if "I'm sorry some people chose to misunderstand me" counts, I'll happy post that apology. [Roll Eyes]

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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Kyralessa, thank you for clarifying your point.

Please note that I did not tell you to apologize. I told you that a wise man might choose to do so. You may do with that what you will.

scot
Purgatory Host

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012

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[Tangent]

Grins and notes that Scot forgot to change his mask before he posted [Wink] Scot's got a sockpuppet!

[/Tangent]

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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”

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Scot

Deck hand
# 2095

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I have no idea what you're talking about, Sarky. [Razz]

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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
I have apologized for imprudent remarks in the past. However, I will not be bullied into apologizing for a point I did not make.


Whose bullying you ?

I was not suggesting you apologise for the point but for the fact that because your post was unclear it was not conducive. Can you not see what I am trying to say? Why are you (deliberately?) not accepting that the way in which you posted is both open to interpretation and of a sort that has caused problems in the past?

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Spong

Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518

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quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
I think you are right, Gregory, but I have never heard of a group of Bishops ganging up on a prospective Bishop before in a public way.

Henson, as Bishop of Hereford nearly a century ago, was opposed very publicly by at least two bishops - Charles Gore, then Bishop of Oxford and Frank Weston, the Bishop of Zanzibar. The latter wrote an open letter to his missionaries. Plus ca change... [Roll Eyes]

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Whose bullying you ?

Nobody, because as I said, I won't let it happen. [Big Grin]

quote:
I was not suggesting you apologise for the point but for the fact that because your post was unclear it was not conducive. Can you not see what I am trying to say? Why are you (deliberately?) not accepting that the way in which you posted is both open to interpretation and of a sort that has caused problems in the past?
In the future I will strive for greater clarity, and I will attempt to include any necessary disclaimers with any remarks I make tangential to such touchy subjects in the future. [brick wall]

By the way, Pyx_e, if you think I've misconstrued your original suggestion to me, then you understand my own point quite well. [Wink]

quote:
(From Pyx_e earlier:)
It is not acceptable to equate homosexuality with child abuse or many of the other things you point to.

Quite a reasonable rule. As I said, I had no intentions of doing so. I am sorry that my intent was not clear to some, and I'll do my best to better clarify the real point I'm making.

At the same time, generally speaking, if people suspect a post was intended to offend, or even that it could be taken in an offensive way, they might do better to request clarification at the outset rather than to immediately demand apology for an unclear offense. Such demands are themselves offensive because, among other things, they impute motives to the original poster which the demander could not possibly know.

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

Posts: 1597 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252

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quote:
Originally posted by Spong:
quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
I think you are right, Gregory, but I have never heard of a group of Bishops ganging up on a prospective Bishop before in a public way.

Henson, as Bishop of Hereford nearly a century ago, was opposed very publicly by at least two bishops - Charles Gore, then Bishop of Oxford and Frank Weston, the Bishop of Zanzibar. The latter wrote an open letter to his missionaries. Plus ca change... [Roll Eyes]
Well, sort of. Except that there were genuinely important doctrinal issues between Gore/ Weston and Henson. Oh for the days when there were more important things to argue about than sex!

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insert amusing sig. here

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Spong

Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518

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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
Except that there were genuinely important doctrinal issues between Gore/ Weston and Henson. Oh for the days when there were more important things to argue about than sex!

AIUI the main issue they were disputing was the Virgin Birth, so they were arguing about sex... [Big Grin]

I know what you mean, though - it was essentially about how you had to believe the Creeds. OTOH, +Richard on Thought for the Day last week was clear that he understood the depth of feeling for those on the other side of the issue - indeed, those on both sides.

Without agreeing with it, I could understand the view that said "I have great difficulty accepting episcopal oversight from someone who is practising a form of sexuality that I believe to be profoundly unChristian." But for the life of me I can't understand why that should be a problem when the person concerned has accepted in obedience that the church's view should govern his sexual practice as a priest, and even his speaking as a bishop.

[ 23. June 2003, 09:26: Message edited by: Spong ]

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

Posts: 2173 | From: South-East UK | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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It occurred to me this weekend that this is the last gasp for Reform. They have gone from their position in the eighties of expecting the C of E to be all conservative evangelical by 2010. to seeing it all slip away in a see of post- evangelicalism and their ordained minions being subsumed by the pastoral nature of the real work of the C of E.

They realise that the vast majority of the church is distancing themselves from them, that the country thinks them old fashioned and even bigoted, that the power base they dreamed of never really happened and now never will and so they have latched on to this issue/matter with a zealousness that betrays their desperation.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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That analysis tends to be supported by the fact that the announcement of imminent schism is coming from the conservative evangelicals. Peter Jensen says the Anglican movement could become a
quote:
federation or network of churches related by history and ties of affection.
I thought that is what is already was [Confused] - what does he think it is?

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Yes ; I agree. I think, also, that they cannot cope with the fact that the broader cultural pattern of life is drifting away from them, and they see this issue as a key to highlighting it it. I think they recognise that they are kicking against the tide - goodness, even the Daily Telegraph has been reasonably sympathetic on this one! Hence their desperation.

There has been lots of encouragement for me at a parish level, seeing the response of p[eople in our church.

One other thing. The statements made by the Archbishops of the West Indies, Congo, and Nigeria, have had little to do with theology. They essentially reflect the prejudices of their own culture and the Victorian culture from which their churches have hardly changed. The homophobic language used is simply not acceptable, and I would challenge the 9 Bishops to refute this, as publicly as they have hounded Jeffrey John. If they don't, their claims not to be homophobic are somewhat flimsy. Evangelicals often talk about Christianity being counter-cultural - so it should be - challenging homophobia in the developing world, for example. The South African church has done it bravely, Desmond Tutu being a prime example.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
GeordieDownSouth
Shipmate
# 4100

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<warning: possibly tangential and waffley post ahead>

I was at Greyfriars in Reading last night (one of the churches that may with hold funding) for Steve Chalkes FaithWorks gig.

I used to attend Greyfriars for a bit before finding my way to my present church, so still know a few people there. Unfortunately i was called by divine(ish) prompting to the pub soon after the end of the service so didn't have much chance to gather a "grass roots" view to report here. Had one chat with a guy i know who'd been collared by Channel 4 that morning (though he didn't end up on telly). His main concern was that because of the questions the media put it was difficult to express God's love in the whole situation. Didn't have chance to find out more than this.

BUT my main point is to do with the contrast between what the thrust of the Faithworks stuff going on inside the church was about and the media frenzy over a gay bishop. Faithworks is about encourageing grassroots invovlement in communities, in politics in setting up proffessional standard sustainable projects that really benefit your area. Stuff that will really make a difference. Its got support from the top of government (apparently Gordon Brown is a fan), and will hopefully effect peoples lives. May have to start another thread on this.

Media attention on Faithworks: negligible.

Media attention on Gay Bishop: Frenetic.

Which is most likely to have an effect on the churches mission? What slightest bit of difference will i see in my church (ok i'm Methodist, but i'm at an LEP so it does have some relevance) from this appointment?

As far as i can see its about politics and power games, and is a huge distraction.

(for information, i have conservative evangelical tendencies, though in many aspects of this i have ceased to practice.)

Posts: 689 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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I wonder how many clergy who don't want women priests want gay bishops, and vice versa?
I wonder how much of an overlap there is between the two groups?

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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GDS ; agreed. I really think that the Bishops who initially took their campaign to the Press have a lot to answer for. It was obvious how they would respond.

Interestingly, as you mentioned Steve Chalke, he takes a far more open and less absolute 'line' then do many other evangelicals on this issue, and I heard him on the radio saying much the same as yourself.

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
GeordieDownSouth
Shipmate
# 4100

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Yeah, he alluded to it only very very briefly last night, in the middle of tirade about the Elightenment, but didn't really say what he thought about the whole affair. Had more important things to talk about.

It was a churches together (or something similar) type meeting so there were lots of random clergy from various places taking part (Chalky made a joke about the anglicans knowing the they were really THE Clergy and the rest were just mucking about) and the only real mention was that after a week where division in the church had been so highlighted it was great to have meeting so unified.

Frankly I'm narked off with both "sides" in this debate/controversy/storm in teacup. but TRYING not to let it bother me.

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No longer down south.

Posts: 689 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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I think there is one matter of concern here. The Times (I think) alleged that Jeffrey had said in a lecture some time ago that David Hope had counselled him IN CONFESSION at St. Stephen's House when Principal to continue in his relationship as it would make of him a better priest. Any prospective bishop who is prepared to disclose what a confessor has said under the seal gives me cause for concern. David Hope cannot respond without breaking the seal himself. If this happened, maybe it was an attempt to flush out David Hope's policy on the matter. I think we must consider this a "grey area." [Wink]

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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I think alleged is the word. The lecture was far less explicit and all sorts of assumptions have been made after the event, no doubt with the intent of outing people. That is definitely not Jeffrey John's style

[ 23. June 2003, 11:40: Message edited by: Merseymike ]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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That qoute came from the same Telegraph article which gave the names the Bishops were known as at Theological college.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Black Labrador
Shipmate
# 3098

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Originally posted by Merseymike:

quote:
I think, also, that they [Reform] cannot cope with the fact that the broader cultural pattern of life is drifting away from them, and they see this issue as a key to highlighting it it.
Agreed - since the ordination of women was passed Reform have been marginalised. As we've discussed before on here, conservative evangelicalism has been in decline for some time - charismatic evangelism and post evangelicalism are on the up.

quote:
The statements made by the Archbishops of the West Indies, Congo, and Nigeria, have had little to do with theology. They essentially reflect the prejudices of their own culture and the Victorian culture from which their churches have hardly changed.
Of course, your views on the subject don't reflect the prejudices of your own culture [Killing me]
Posts: 629 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022

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Of course they do, Ian - I fully accept that.

And I am willing to defend the western acceptance of gay people as a mark of human progress and revelatory in itself. Part of the reason I am happy tocall myself liberal is my belif that Christianity should be able to take on the best parts of enlightenment thinking , so remaining relevant to a progressing and changing situation. I guess I am a cultural elitist,and not a relativist in that sense. I think I once said to you in a private mail that I'm a tough, not a wet liberal - thats what I meant. I positively believe liberal values are superior.

Re ; the Telegraph article - we are talking, then, at least third hand.

[ 23. June 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: Merseymike ]

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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced

Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248

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Sorry to be late on this thread - just got back from holiday.

The only comment I have which does not repeat much that has been said already is to consider the plank in the eyes of the bishops pointing out the speck in Jeffrey John's.

They are attacking him on the grounds that his lifestyle is against biblical teaching. Is this the same Bible that says 'foxes have their holes, birds have their nests, but the Son of Man will live in a sumptuous seven bedroom Palace with maintained grounds all at the expense of the wider Church'?

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of Canon John's lifestyle, is it wise for the bishops to risk a 'whose-lifestyle-is-the-most-biblical' contest? They should seek to measure themselves against the clear teaching delivered directly by Jesus on power, privilege, luxury, self-aggrandisement, etc. before they seek to criticise someone else on what they assume Jesus disapproved of, despite biblical silence on the matter.

Cheers,

Uriel.

Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412

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quote:
Originally posted by Uriel:
The only comment I have which does not repeat much that has been said already is to consider the plank in the eyes of the bishops pointing out the speck in Jeffrey John's.

Hmm, young Uriel - but surely you can only cast stones at those bishops if (hope I have got this right) you are sinless too...

If judgements on others can only made by those who are blameless, then doesn't your criticism of the bishops mean that you think that your eye is completely free of four-by-twos?

May you have heaps of Pax, anyway,
anglicanrascal

Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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In my experience in my Christian life ... judgement is like a boomerang. If I throw it at someone, it veers back and hits me on the head. I should know, I have a sore head to prove it.

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7

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As a wise man once wrote, exposing hypocrisy does not in and of itself make you a moral person.

But as long as you're honest about your own motivations - and your own flaws - as long as you're aware that no one is above reproach, and you're prepared to take any flak coming to you, there's no reason why you shouldn't dish it out.

having sai that, it doesn't give you a carte blanche to go about it the wrong way. I had this conversation with my mother-in-law, who, unlike me, agrees with the bishops, but who, like me, is well aware that the way they stated their complaint was well bad.

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Narcissism.

Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Wood! WELL BAD! AAAAAAARRGGHHHHHH! [Mad] [Mad] [Mad]

What this is all about is keepng the conservative evangelical constituency happy so that they won't pull the plug on the money. At the end of the day a bishop has to run a diocese. As an evangelical or just someone watching his back he is less likely to be compromised if he makes PUBLIC statements. That's not to say that Dow & Co. don't personally believe what they say ... but there are other motivations I'm sure.

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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