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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: HEAVEN: Jan 2016 Book Discussion: The Nine Tailors by Dorothy L. Sayers
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Petherbridge LOOKED the part of Lord Peter perfectly. I didn't love the TV series as much as I wanted to, and I never saw the Carmichael ones, but couldn't visualize him as Lord Peter.
If a new series had been done a few years ago when the actor was a bit younger, I would have voted for Hugh Laurie as the perfect Lord Peter ... but I would love to see them re-made anyway, with the right cast and scriptwriter.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I preferred Petherbridge. I wonder if one of the Fox clan would do.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, I would like it if they stuck firmly to the novels, and didn't insist on adding bits of their own to 'update' it. (Or, as the great Robert Heinlein described it, they pee in it and then they like the flavor of it better so they buy it...)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
While this seems to have been recorded in Suffolk rather than Cambs, this is a fair representation of the southern edge of the fens.
This is both appropriate to the story and not that far from the likely location of Fenchurch St Paul. Locals will know where I mean if I say it's not that far from Chaa'ris (Nigel Blackwell's perfect enunciation always makes me laugh).
Lord Peter has always struck me as having been punched on a similar die to John Steed - using charm and wit to get what others would try to force with steel, but always having the knowledge to back it up if required. Though I don't recall Wimsey ever belting anyone with an armoured umbrella, or having a sidekick in a catsuit.
We lived next to Mrs Gates for eight years, much to the Knotweed's amusement.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Both Hugh Lawrie and Ian Carmichael played Bertie Wooster in TV series.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
In this country, we would call it reckless endangerment, or perhaps manslaughter.
I think given the rarity of death by sound alone, there would be a good argument that not only did the accused not foresee the consequences, but that he could not reasonably be expected to have foreseen the consequences.
My interpretation of the book was that Will Thoday never intended Deacon to be in the bell chamber during the peal - he meant to get him away by boat but was unable to because of being taken ill. I thought he was so desperate to get to the church over new year while he was ill because he knew Deacon was in danger (from cold and hunger if not from the bells). So I think Will is less culpable because it was only being taken ill that prevented him from getting Deacon out of that bell tower.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
He seems to have felt very guilty about it, however.
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Naturally he did - he had caused someone else's death. Deacon, of course, wouldn't have given it a second thought.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
On the subject of Lord Peter's faith, or lack thereof, this, from Sayers' The Mind of the Maker.' p. 105
In chapter 9 'The Love of the Creature' she records this conversation (abbrev'd) with a reader;
Reader: 'I am sure Lord Peter will end up as a convinced Christian.'
Sayers: 'From what I know of him, nothing is more unlikely.'
R: 'But he's far too intelligent and far too nice, not to be a Christian.'
S: Peter is a Whig gentleman, born a little out of his time, and doubtful whether any claim to possess a soul is not a rather vulgar piece of presumption.'
This sounds to me agnostic, rather than atheist. Plus his interactions with various clergy scattered throughout the canon suggest familiarity perhaps ahead of the run-of-the-mill Anglican. Certainly he knows about Puseyites and Kensitites, he is able to identify a gospel verse from its citation on a funeral wreath, he refuses to let his wedding become a society show event, he reminisces about singing in the parish choir, and lots of other incidental mentions.
Pre-WW1 many English took their church-going rather perfunctorily, until the Oxford Movement started the pot a-boiling. During and after the Great War, some became more serious about the church, while others fell away. (See also John Betjeman's poem 'Westminster Abbey.' (I think that's the right title.)
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Also I wonder if there is not a class element in there. It would be non-U, to be too enthusiastic about religion. Lord Peter would not want to be like Bill Rumm. A member of the nobility naturally has to fulfill all the proper forms -- maintain the pew, show up at services, read the Scripture reading when up at Duke's Denver. But it would be in poor taste to show one's beliefs too blatantly.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The book is dominated by the bells and it ends with their names. The symbolism is ambiguous though. In one sense they are the protectors of the village. But apart from Hezekiah, most characters sense something sinister about them, notably Lord Peter in the last chapter.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
I assumed it was to do with them killing people, especially 'evil doers'. I don't think Hillary as worried by them, was she? But Peter would because of his uneasy conscience regarding his hobby, even if he wasn't conscious of it.
Thank you for the correction, BroJames. I realised my mistake as soon as I read your post
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) . I don't know what I was thinking of - I've read both novels several times.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
As the Rev says, the bells are the representatives of God. An easy symbolism, but quite rich. They are above the community of Fenchurch St. Paul, but pervade its life. Their tolling announces, but does not control, many of their life happenings, especially in this book death. (But I remember in Busman's Honeymoon that when the newlyweds arrive at Duke's Denver the gatekeeper mentioned doing a peal for them at the local church.) They save life (the warning bells that tell the populace to flee the flood) and take it (Deacon and others) but only through the hands of men.
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The book is dominated by the bells and it ends with their names. The symbolism is ambiguous though. In one sense they are the protectors of the village. But apart from Hezekiah, most characters sense something sinister about them, notably Lord Peter in the last chapter.
I have to say that even as a ringer I find that understandable - there is something about the great open mouths of the bells above you as you climb up to them that is quite eerie. Which is funny, because that's when they are safe, with the mouths down. I think it's the feeling of climbing towards something heavy hanging above you.
Mind you, I did once have a magical hour or so climbing around five bells that had been silent since at least the 1930s... now that really was fun!
Now, if you want an interesting bell experience, how about this? You can actually climb past the bells as they ring and, while as far as I know they won't kill you (they didn't me, or any of our party), they certainly make your fillings rattle!
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Both Hugh Lawrie and Ian Carmichael played Bertie Wooster in TV series.
My copy had Ian as Lord Peter. He seemed OK to me. I shall re-watch it tomorrow if I am cursed again with a day off!
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The book is dominated by the bells and it ends with their names. The symbolism is ambiguous though. In one sense they are the protectors of the village. But apart from Hezekiah, most characters sense something sinister about them, notably Lord Peter in the last chapter.
Even Hezekiah issues a warning about the awareness the bells have: "They bells du know well who's a-haulin' of 'un... They can't abide a wicked man. They lays in wait to overthrow 'un."
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Both Hugh Lawrie and Ian Carmichael played Bertie Wooster in TV series.
Interesting that Ian Carmichael played both Wooster and Wimsey (two very different characters - and I'm old enough to just about remember both series) and it was suggested up-thread that Hugh Laurie would make a good Wimsey. Carmichael does the audiobooks particularly well, I think - I listened to his reading (well dramatisation, really) of 'Unnatural Death' recently.
Perhaps there are closer parallels between Bunter and Jeeves; both not just efficient but prescient, and turning out to have unexpected traits. Or should be wait till later in the year to discuss this?
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
I recall reading somewhere, but I have no idea where, that the difference between Bunter and Jeeves is that Jeeves is a traditional servant. His uncle is a butler. He will marry a maid. His family have been in service for as long as Bertie's family have been noblemen. Whereas Bunter was Lord Peter's batman in the war. His family have no tradition of service.
This thread has made me think about the bells. Previously I had just assumed they were a peg on which sayer's hung a mystery. Now I can see that they are agents of God. They are a bit like the inanimate objects in MR James's stories, as agents of vengeance. The difference is the bells are divine, not diabolical.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
One of the main things that stay with me about the book is the use of language and the descriptions, particularly of the bells. From when we first hear them at the beginning when "Softly, tremulously, high overhead in the tower, Sabaoth began to speak, and her sisters after her..." to the end when "over all, the bells tumbled and wrangled, shouting their alarm across the country" they give me goosebumps! it's also amusing the way the evidence from one witness is reported all in indirect speech, like a statement, but keeping all his idioms and expressions. And as for Bunter, always so punctilious and self-deprecating, but one step ahead of Wimsey all the time ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, the Bunter-Wimsey relationship is fascinating. Not quite paternal, though Bunter is older than Lord Peter. Not quite master-man, because Bunter also does a good bit of the detective work. I particularly admire his sterling labors in Harriet arc, when he is nearly flung into the maw of matrimony in Lord Peter's service.
It interests me, how much of the work Bunter actually does. Clearly he takes care of Peter's wardrobe, shoes, hat, etc. He also seems to make meals -- tea, breakfast. He must have a room or even a couple rooms in the flat at Piccadilly. But there must be an outside worker (a charwoman?) who comes in and does the cleaning, sweeping, polishing the grates and so on. Lord Peter goes out to dine almost continually, so it is not like Bunter has to cook him three meals a day. And there are large swathes of time Peter is staying with friends or down at Dukes Denver or on travel. All the laundry must be sent out -- if washing machines were available at the time I can't imagine Bunter using one. Bunter may well tend the collars, ties, and suits, but he's not going to launder the sheets and towels.
And clearly a good deal of labor is contracted out. The coal for the fire must be delivered. The groceries likewise. Bunter does clothing shopping for Peter, selecting his ties and socks. The Dowager Duchess mentions (in Busman's Honeymoon) that he even selected the flat (and presumably furnished it) and helped Peter move into it.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Bunter manages everything, which is a large job in itself. He pulls rabbits out of hats as his master has need. And Busman's Honeymoon has a lovely picture of him as a horse trainer/groom/owner, who has finally managed to bring the horse (Peter) up to the starting gate in prime condition with no mishaps along the way. So not so much paternal as ... what's the adjective I want? Peter is a beloved project, a living willful creature, to be sure, but not one to be trusted out on his own.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
Yet finally, in this book, we see the competent Bunter at a loss, regretting that he cannot assist in the bellringing (having nearly hanged himself with the rope the only time he tried).
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
He's like the coach. He's not going to be the one to get the ball over the goal line. That's the job of the team. But he's on the sidelines, helping the team to do it.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
But that was the nature of young men about town, the debs delights, the eligible men who the debutantes would like to marry, that they ate breakfast at home and were out in the evening, either wining and dining someone, or invited to parties and dinners introducing the young ladies on the marriage mart to suitable men. During the season these men could eat out for free continuously. And we know Society mamas were hoping to ensnare Lord Peter as it is mentioned a few times.Plus there's comment about that society in Murder Must Advertise
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Landlubber:
Yet finally, in this book, we see the competent Bunter at a loss, regretting that he cannot assist in the bellringing (having nearly hanged himself with the rope the only time he tried).
He wasn't happy about the beer bottle either.
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Ann
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
I recall reading somewhere, but I have no idea where, that the difference between Bunter and Jeeves is that Jeeves is a traditional servant. His uncle is a butler. He will marry a maid. His family have been in service for as long as Bertie's family have been noblemen. Whereas Bunter was Lord Peter's batman in the war. His family have no tradition of service.
I don't know if Bunter's family has a tradition of service, but having just reread Busman's Honeymoon today I can tell you that Bunter was a footman at Sir John Sanderson's before the war.
Bunter is a wonderful character. And I think the Jeeves/Wooster and Bunter/Wimsey parallels are intentional on DLS's part. There's a mention of the novels of Wodehouse in one of the early Lord Peter novels, and the younger Lord Peter appears, at first introduction, to be quite like a much, much, much smarter Bertie Wooster. It's almost as if she were writing the opposite of a parody -- taking the two light comic characters and seeing what you could do with those same character types over a series of much more serious novels.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Posted the above before adding the rest of what I meant to say: that it was that parallel (intentional, I think) with the Wodehouse characters that made me think Hugh Laurie could have played a good Lord Peter. I'll tell you who else could do a great job of it, and is at the exact right time in life to play him -- Benedict Cumberbatch. But I think he's irrevocably associated with one great detective now and couldn't play another, which is a sad loss.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is frightening how very many characters Cumberbatch could plausibly play. IMO he is not toffee-nosed enough to be Wimsey, however.
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
The clever servant who outwits his master goes all the way back - to Plautus, at least. And it is seen in Yes Minister with Jim Haker and Sir Humphrey. Of course Bunter is different. He is clever, but so is Lord Peter. Bunter and peter are a team, whereas the stock characters derived humour from the turning of tables.
As described, I realise that I could really do with a Bunter.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Wimsey was blond, wasn't he?
Laundry - I remember our laundry being sent out in the 60s, sheets, towels, men's and women's shirts, buckets of nappies and muslins. All collected in the blue laundry bag and returned on wire hangers or neatly folded. Also the laundry marks on everything.
We didn't start using a laundrette until we moved to my grandparents between houses or have our own washing machine at home until the house we subsequently moved into.
Bread was delivered to my grandparents and the butcher's van called twice a week. They grew their own fruit and veg. Coal was delivered in sacks straight into the coal hole or shed by the coal lorry, flat back lorry with fascinatingly coal black workers.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
This started me thinking about who could play Wimsey now. How about the guy who played Matthew in Downton Abbey (can't remember his name but he was definitely blond)
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Wimsey was blond, wasn't he?
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Cumberbatch has already played Christopher Tietjens as both posh and blond.
I believe actors do change their appearance for different characters.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Yes, hair colour ought not to be a concern as actors routinely dye their hair for roles, and Cumberbatch has played fair-haired boys more than once. I can quite easily see him doing the full range of Lord Peter -- the aristocrat, the madman, and of course the brilliant detective -- but again, he's not likely to take on a second Great Detective role in his career. More's the pity.
I've been thinking about continuity in Sayers' books now that I've reread the whole Lord Peter canon within about a three-week period. She's sometimes very good on following up on minor characters from one story to another. I like, for example, how the love story of Freddie Arbuthnot, a minor character in several novels, and Rachel Levy, a character so minor I don't think she ever even actually appears in any of the books, is followed through to its conclusion. And there are several other recurring minor characters who pop up from book to book. Interesting to note in Gaudy Night that Miss Murchison of Strong Poison has left Miss Climpson's firm to be married -- apparently someone found her strong, ugly, rather masculine features (I think that's roughly how she's described in SP) attractive, and good for her.
On the other hand, quite interesting characters are dropped with no further reference, even though they might easily fall within the scope of later stories. Hilary Thorpe from The Nine Tailors is one of these -- it would have been fascinating to catch a quick glimspe of Hilary in a later story. I suppose given the timeline of the stories she would still have been a bit too young to have been at Shrewsbury during Gaudy Night but it would have been nice to know that she did make it to Oxford eventually. For those who don't mind a bit of fanfiction there's a fanfic writer who has done a whole series of stories about Hilary's wartime romance with Peter's nephew Jerry, so there's that.
There are other gaps in continuity I wish Sayers had filled in -- while I love all the tiny cameos of former characters who turn up as wedding guests in BH, including Bill Rumm, I've always thought it unforgiveable that Harriet's wedding party was made up exclusively of the Shrewsbury dons, whose acquaintance she had only made or renewed in GN, with no mention of Eiluned and Sylvia who had stood firmly by her during the worst time of her life five years before. And Peter has his nephew as best man rather than Freddie, after he'd stood for Freddie at his synagogue wedding.
But the omission that worries me the most is any further mention of George and Sheila Fentiman from The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club. I worry about how George got on afterwards.
Obviously an author can't tie up all the loose ends, especially with a story like The Nine Tailors that takes Lord Peter well out of the range of his everyday life. I mean, it would be quite unrealistic to check back in with Mary Thoday and find out how she's getting on in widowhood, as there'd be no reason for Lord Peter, or the reader, to ever encounter her again. But does anyone else share my discomfort with loose ends that don't get tied up -- or maybe it's just curiosity to know more about a character we've grown fond of?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Signaller
Shipmate
# 17495
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Posted
Mrs Signaller (who has an experience of detective fiction that spans several continents) distinguishes the good books from the also-rans in that in the good books, you care desperately about what happens to the characters after the end of the book. On that criterion, Sayers is in the first rank.
A shared enthusiam for Wimsey was one of the things that brought us together, 25 years ago.
Posts: 113 | From: Metroland | Registered: Jan 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What it shows you is how real the world that Sayers has created is. You can easily think of Mary Thoday remarrying later on (it would be hard for a widow with two young children to manage the farm otherwise). Whereas I can't even remember most of the supporting characters in an Agatha Christie novel after I put the book down.
I might easily believe Sylvia to be married and living on the Left Bank in Paris, and Eiluned in New York organizing a women's vote campaign. It is in fact realistic, that people come and go in life. We are deceived, because it's so easy to google a college roommate or look her up on Facebook. It is unrealistic, as in Les Miserables, when everywhere Jean Valjean goes he runs into people he knew from before. One would think that post-Revolutionary France had a population of two hundred people.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
In Agatha Christie the characters are paper thin, as everything is sacrificed to plot. I recall reading somewhere that one of her tricks is to progressively shorten both sentence and word length as the book progresses. This causes one to speed up reading, and makes it seem as though it is hurteling towards the conclusion.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There are some supernally popular authors who essentially do cookie-cutter writing. Barbara CArtland comes immediately to mind. That is, alas, the secret of commercial fiction -- find a formula and write it, to the end of time. I could not do that.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Harking back to 'what Bunter does, etc' a fascinating novel I read recently is V. Sackville-West's 'The Edwardians.' (I hope I've got that right.) It's set in and around a ducal household, with a young, unmarried duke and his dowager duchess mother. There's a marvelous scene describing dinner in the servants' hall, with each maid or valet of visitors occupying the same social position as their mistress/master above stairs.
It's a very 'rich' read, but delightful.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I'd always though that Sayers had read a Wodehouse story and thought she could play on that. Either that or there were a lot of wealthy batchelors in 1920s London that both Sayers and Wodehosue knew. Lord Peter is very much more Wooster like in the early books, even if his hobbies are not ones I can imagine Bertie embracing. As for Bunter and Jeeves, they both have the same gentle but firm approach to their master's foray's into dubious attire. I wonder if they met up at the Junior Ganymede?
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'd be confident she had read Wodehouse.
I’m afraid this next point will reveal my inner Mrs Gates.
Sir Henry Thorpe has inherited his title – he is a baronet – from his father. When he dies, if he had a son, the son would inherit the title. He doesn’t so the title passes to his brother. The estate passes to his daughter. At no point is the boring brother referred to as “Sir Edward”. Probably Sayers thought he was so boring she wasn’t going bother.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
The big difference between Peter and Bertie is of course that Peter was old enough to fight in the First World War. There's a lot in Sayers' books about the effects of shell-shock.
The Peter Wimsey in 'Whose Body?' does have some similarities with Bertie Wooster but Sayers obviously realised quite quickly that an unreconstructed Bertie wouldn't work in a murder mystery. Bertie is not clever enough, for a start (he only won the Scripture Prize at school by smuggling lists of the Kings of Judah into the exam room, IIRC, whereas Peter got a First at Oxford). That's one of the reasons why Bunter's relationship with Peter is different, if you ask me - Bertie is perfectly well aware that Jeeves is far cleverer than he is, so he tries to assert himself in the only area he feels confident to try - choosing his own clothes - and the joke is that he can't even do that without Jeeves' help. Whereas Peter and Bunter have complementary skills, and Bunter's role in the matter of dress is one of consultant whose advice is valued but may occasionally be overruled. I can't imagine Bunter taking it upon himself to send something Peter had ordered back to the shop or giving it away, as Jeeves does on numerous occasions.
I liked Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock, but he'd be no good as Wimsey; he's too tall.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I do hope that when Hilary Thorpe comes of age she doesn't just sling the emeralds into the donation bin at the animal shelter or something. If the title and the house go to her uncle Edward then she's going to need some assets, if only to pay the fees at Oxford.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
There's no entail on the estate, so it will go to Hilary. Sir Edward doesn't want it anyway.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Oh, I remember. A decrepit mansion sited in a howling wilderness. She is a teen as of TNT, which means she must have been born just before the Great War. Which would make sense, if her father was injured during that conflagration and (presumably) has a Hemingwayesque injury of the Dolorous Wound type. I wonder when Lady Thorpe passed?
So Hilary will be thirtyish when WW2 breaks out. Her gigantic mansion could then come into its own -- rural isolation is highly sought after for some things. It could be dedicated to codebreakers, or top secret military research, or the training of airmen who need large flat places to do things. And she will have the money to keep the roof on the place until then.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Harking back to 'what Bunter does, etc' a fascinating novel I read recently is V. Sackville-West's 'The Edwardians.' (I hope I've got that right.) It's set in and around a ducal household, with a young, unmarried duke and his dowager duchess mother. There's a marvelous scene describing dinner in the servants' hall, with each maid or valet of visitors occupying the same social position as their mistress/master above stairs.
It's a very 'rich' read, but delightful.
I read an account written by the woman who was lady's maid to Lady Astor at a similar time, describing the hierarchical setup "downstairs".
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I wonder when Lady Thorpe passed?
If you mean Hilary's mother, at the start of the book. If you mean her grandmother, then maybe shortly after grandfather died triggered by the distress of the theft of the emeralds perhaps...?
Hilary does seem to be particularly unlucky with relations, poor girl.
And as venbede mentioned earlier, I have also wondered whether Uncle Edward inherited the title and if he does why he doesn't get referred to by it. I thought I'd caught him being called "Mr Thorpe" at least once which, after his brother's death, he presumably isn't. Unless there is an intermediate brother who gets the title but is unable to look after Hilary because of living abroad or being unmarried or something.
[ 01. February 2016, 15:49: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, that's not gone into. It sounds like the sort of thing which everybody knows and therefore nobody has to tell you about brother George who's in Nepal with his regiment.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
So Hilary will be thirtyish when WW2 breaks out. Her gigantic mansion could then come into its own -- rural isolation is highly sought after for some things. It could be dedicated to codebreakers, or top secret military research, or the training of airmen who need large flat places to do things.
Plenty of large flat things to base a story round!
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
At one point in the canon (can't remember where) Bunter is being a bit more than his usual Bunter-ish. He concludes by (sniffing) 'I endeavour to give satisfaction.' To which LPW replies 'Then don't talk like Jeeves!'
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
It is this which forms one of the roots of my problems with the Jill Paton Walsh books. I just do not believe Bunter, and the Bunter-Peter relationship, in those books.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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