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Originally posted by HCH:
I have not been able to find any details about the religious affiliation of Ms. Davis. She talks about the Bible but not (as far as I can tell) any specific church.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
One thing I don't understand: didn't she consider that publicity would mean her own rather complicated marital history would come to light? (AIUI: 3 marriages (and divorces?); child with another man; married the kid's father.)

Not condemning her for her history...but maybe she's not the best person to be teaching about ideal marriage?

Of course, she's straight, so that must make everything ok.

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I think it is reasonable to compromise for existing employees - provided the service is still covered - but people should only be hired who are prepared to do the job as it now is.

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Originally posted by Net Spinster:
It seems to be the associate pastor of Charity Freewill Baptist Church in Morehead, Randy Smith, that is leading the local support group (or at least showing up in all the articles). The Apostolic Christian church seems to be Pentecostal.

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Originally posted by orfeo:

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Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I think it is reasonable to compromise for existing employees - provided the service is still covered - but people should only be hired who are prepared to do the job as it now is.

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Does any private business work like this? How much wiggle room does any employer give to an employee who likes their job exactly as it is and doesn't want management to implement any changes?

The analogy I keep thinking of today (thanks in no small part to Betty Bowers, America's Favorite Christian) is that Davis is like a long-serving waitress at a restaurant who thinks she's earned the right to veto any changes to the menu.

It's fundamentally about where power lies. People don't normally have the power to define their own job unless they are self-employed.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
He also claims that she is the equal of Martin Luther King in standing up for her beliefs.

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
Her lawyer has an agenda other than giving her the best legal advice possible for her present situation. Her lawyer works for a group that is opposed to gay marriage. My thought is that her lawyer is looking at the great PR and fund raising opportunities the jailing brings.

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Originally posted by orfeo:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
He also claims that she is the equal of Martin Luther King in standing up for her beliefs.

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Well, arguably she is. That doesn't say anything about the quality of her beliefs as compared to Martin Luther King's.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
He also claims that she is the equal of Martin Luther King in standing up for her beliefs.

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Well, arguably she is. That doesn't say anything about the quality of her beliefs as compared to Martin Luther King's.

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Arguably she is not. MLK spent a lifetime doing his work. This person has not shown any sort of comparable commitment.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Odd stuff now emanating from her lawyer, claiming that the licences issued by her deputies have no status.

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Originally posted by orfeo:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
He also claims that she is the equal of Martin Luther King in standing up for her beliefs.

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Well, arguably she is. That doesn't say anything about the quality of her beliefs as compared to Martin Luther King's.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I assume you're trying to say that he did give Ms Davies what he considered the best legal advice possible. And, that by happy coincidence for the group he works for the outcome raises great PR and fund raising opportunities.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
...
In other words, she would ascribe her complicated relationship history to when she was a sinner.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is an interesting parallel. Moslem flight attendence refusing to serve alcohol. Should she be forced to or be canned?

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Masri said the arrangement Stanley had with other attendants to serve alcohol for her had been working out fine since Stanley converted to Islam about a month after becoming a flight attendant for ExpressJet.

"I don't think that I should have to choose between practicing my religion properly or earning a living," Stanley said. "I shouldn't have to choose between one or the other because they're both important."

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Has she also made arrangements with her colleagues so that she doesn't have to serve non-halal food? Or serve women who aren't modestly dressed or properly veiled? IANAM, but what's she doing in an airplane with all those men who aren't relatives? And she knows that most people pay for their tickets with credit cards, right? Many airlines based in Muslim countries serve alcohol on their flights. If you're flying Emirates, you can check the wine list on your flight, FFS.

Cases like this make me cranky. Having seen first-hand the barriers that keep e.g. people with disabilities out of so many workplaces, not just airplanes, ISTM she's quite fortunate that her version of her religion allows her to pick and choose her workplace limitations.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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"I don't think that I should have to choose between practicing my religion properly or earning a living," Stanley said. "I shouldn't have to choose between one or the other because they're both important."

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It brings to mind that clerk in the Dickens novel who, whenever invited to do some work at the office, replies, "I should prefer not to."

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is an interesting parallel. Moslem flight attendence refusing to serve alcohol. Should she be forced to or be canned?

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
He also claims that she is the equal of Martin Luther King in standing up for her beliefs.

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Well, arguably she is. That doesn't say anything about the quality of her beliefs as compared to Martin Luther King's.

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Piss poor argument it would be. One fought for the freedom from oppression and the other fights for the freedom to oppress. All POV are not equal, so the struggles to maintain them are not equally comparable.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
This is an interesting parallel. Moslem flight attendence refusing to serve alcohol. Should she be forced to or be canned?

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Despite the headline, the article says she was put on administrative leave after a colleague complained about her head scarf. That, to me, sounds like discrimination - unless someone can come up with a reason why wearing a head scarf hindered her ability to do the job. The article implies that serving alcohol, or not, wasn't a problem since she had worked up a suitable arrangement with colleagues that allowed her to uphold her belief against serving alcohol (and, it doesn't matter one jot whether that's a mainstream Muslim belief, or her own personal belief) while allowing customers to have a beer if they wanted.

Surely that is what tolerance for the beliefs of others is about? The compromises that allow for different principles to coexist.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
BTW, I heard, a day or two ago, that she didn't just stop SSM licenses, but ALL marriage licenses.

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
My guess is that she conceives of herself as a hero and wonders why God is letting her be persecuted.

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
My guess is that she conceives of herself as a hero and wonders why God is letting her be persecuted.

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I hope that's not the case, as that would show gross ignorance of the words of Christ and willing disconnect from the legions of Christian martyrs down through the centuries. Sadly this kind of thinking is rampant in 21st century American Christianity (or Christianism). It's a corollary of the prosperity gospel, and to a lesser extent of popular Calvinism.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Despite the headline, the article says she was put on administrative leave after a colleague complained about her head scarf. That, to me, sounds like discrimination - unless someone can come up with a reason why wearing a head scarf hindered her ability to do the job. The article implies that serving alcohol, or not, wasn't a problem since she had worked up a suitable arrangement with colleagues ...

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And, in this sentence, you give testimony to why what you hope is wrong is actually correct.

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Despite the headline, the article says she was put on administrative leave after a colleague complained about her head scarf. That, to me, sounds like discrimination - unless someone can come up with a reason why wearing a head scarf hindered her ability to do the job. The article implies that serving alcohol, or not, wasn't a problem since she had worked up a suitable arrangement with colleagues ...

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That comment made me wonder whether management approved her arrangement. If they did, then they should have stood by her. If they didn't, that puts the employer in a very bad spot. First of all, they can't do their legal duty to accommodate an employee if they don't know about the employee's needs. Second of all, they can't download the duty to accommodate to the employees to figure out on their own. And third, while employees on a good team will help each other out, management still has the right to say, "No, Fred, you can't do Joe's filing for him."

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Originally posted by Net Spinster:
BTW her lawyers may have a slight case on the licenses not being valid. Kentucky law vests that power in the County Clerk and gives her authority to hire deputies to help her do her job; in an absence of the Clerk the County Executive/Judge (Walter Doc Blevins) has that power. If she hasn't given them that authority (or has revoked it or fires them), they may not be allowed to issue marriage licenses. Now she hasn't fired them which would make clear her revocation of that authority.

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A group of anti-gay Christians took to the residence of United States District Judge David Bunning on Monday.

Bunning, who lives on Carrington Point in Ft. Thomas, has been the target of such activists since his multiple rulings involving Rowan Co. Clerk Kim Davis who is now in a Carter Co. jail cell over her refusal to issue marriage licenses. Davis has refused to perform her job duties in Morehead since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that same-sex marriage is a right nationwide.

A news release issued by Rev. Flip Benham said that "Christians from all over the country" were going to be present in front of Bunning's house. There were more than a dozen protestors holding signs that preached against homosexuality and that called for the release of Davis from jail. Benham is the North Carolina-based leader of Operation Save America, which takes a position against abortion. He has previously been found guilty of stalking an abortion doctor in Charlotte.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
From their headscarves, most of the female servers who work in the McDonalds I used to take my student were Muslim. They didn't have any problem serving my student with a double bacon and egg McMuffin when we went there.

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
... living in a delusional narrative and I can assure you that it only leads to bad things.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
... living in a delusional narrative and I can assure you that it only leads to bad things.

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"delusional narrative" is a helpful phrase.

Evidently she feels she is the Persecuted One, that she is part of a Godly Good Group which requires defence, that her principles trump people. Trumping people, thumping people. She like everyone, likes to see justice done to someone else. We are all miserable failures even in our attempts to sin.

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On a domestic flight, I could see a member of the cabin crew not wanting to serve alcohol being possible - not many passengers buy alcohol, so it's easy to summon a colleague. On a long-haul flight, where free wine and beer is available, it wouldn't be practical to have someone doing the drinks service who couldn't actually serve the drinks.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
if the other attendants wish to accommodate her, fine. But the airline has no obligation and is within its rights to consider her failure to comply as actionable.

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
From their headscarves, most of the female servers who work in the McDonalds I used to take my student were Muslim. They didn't have any problem serving my student with a double bacon and egg McMuffin when we went there.

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It all comes down to a question of what accommodation is "reasonable", and that's guaranteed to have fuzzy edges. It seems obvious that it's would be unreasonable for a McDonald's employee to refuse to sell bacon, or for a bartender to refuse to serve alcohol.

On a domestic flight, I could see a member of the cabin crew not wanting to serve alcohol being possible - not many passengers buy alcohol, so it's easy to summon a colleague. On a long-haul flight, where free wine and beer is available, it wouldn't be practical to have someone doing the drinks service who couldn't actually serve the drinks.

UK shipmates will no doubt remember the case of Nadia Eweida, an employee of British Airways who was placed on unpaid leave for refusing to cover up a small cross necklace. Her case ultimately went to the European Court of Human Rights, which ruled that in banning the necklace, BA had not struck a fair balance between its desire for a uniform corporate image and Ms. Eweida's desire to express her faith.

BA had argued that it allowed Muslim employees to wear headscarves, and Sikh employees to wear turbans, as those garments were necessary parts of their religions. By contrast, it argued that Ms. Eweida was not required to wear her cross, and so it was within its rights to forbid it.

The EHCR's ruling rejected this bright line division of people's religious observance into things "required" and "not required".

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It does raise an amusing point, though. There are many cases in which a minority religious preference can be reasonably accommodated: if you have several alternative staff members, and the thing in question is not a central part of your business, then it doesn't seem like a huge hardship to ask one of the other members of the cabin crew to deal with the alcohol sales (for example).

But what if the religious preference is less minority? What if all the members of cabin crew working on a particular flight were Muslims opposed to the sale of alcohol? Can you accommodate them all? Or do you only allow one slot for an alcohol objector per flight?

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Originally posted by Tortuf:
She is being released.

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