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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dead Horses: U.S. Supreme Court Decision
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
She's in the first year of a four year term. The next election is 2018
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
And, based on what I've read, she'll be re-elected overwhelmingly when a new election does arrive.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
feh
Let Dick Cheney's illegitimate daughter stay in office, get re-elected, or whatever else.
She is already seeking Martyr status for her horrific few days in jail. Why give her even more of a public platform by trying to remove her? If the voters re-elect her they do.
The down side of her getting re-elected is that the joke "Somewhere a village is missing it's idiot," will not apply to her.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
And, based on what I've read, she'll be re-elected overwhelmingly when a new election does arrive.
John
Not necessarily. Three years is a very long time, even in local elections. Three years from now the Rowan County electorate will notice that the world has failed to end despite same-sex couples being allowed to legally marry. A lot of voters may start to wonder why the County Clerk was so intent on making trouble for that nice couple, Adam and Steve, who live just down the block. This change of electoral consequences in other U.S. jurisdictions where same-sex marriage has been in place for a while has been noted on another, related thread.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
feh
Let Dick Cheney's illegitimate daughter stay in office, get re-elected, or whatever else.
FYI: Dick Cheney actually has a lesbian daughter, Mary, and he's been very good to her. It's the one good thing I know about him.
He's repeatedly expressed support for SSM.
And he's publicly said that Davis should obey the law.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Yeah, fuck. He is such a damn good villain too. Kinda spoils it a little when you see a redeeming quality. Will he turn from the Dark side completely?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
She is already seeking Martyr status for her horrific few days in jail. Why give her even more of a public platform by trying to remove her?
Well, she has a mistaken view of martydom then.
quote:
it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it?
1 Peter 2:19-20
What credit is it to her to do wrong (defy the courts) and suffer for it? That isn't martydom, that's just idiocy.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alabama Judge Nick Williams Could Be The Next Kim Davis
Oy.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
One big difference, in Alabama the law says Probate Judges may issue marriage licenses not that the shall. 11 counties have ceased to issue any licenses (47 are issuing and these include the biggest counties by population)
Some specific info at ballotpedia
[ 01. October 2015, 21:07: Message edited by: Louise ]
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Well it turns out that while the Pope was wandering around the U.S. he had a private audience with Kim Davis. It's apparently in line with speeches he made about Religious Freedom. Apparently the right to keep homos from being marriage trumps her being remarried multiple times.
Same shit, different Pontiff.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The Pope made some general comments about conscientious objectors, and that it is the right of all people to object to things that they can not in all conscience agree with. Of course, those comments may have been made in relation to a large number of incidents, and may not have had Ms Davis in mind at all.
It's worth noting that the most well known example of conscientious objectors relates to military service, in which case civilised nations provide the opportunity for people, who can demonstrate a valid religious reason not to serve in the armed services, to serve in other capacities - as medics is a common choice. People who join the military and then refuse to follow orders will face the consequencies of disobeying a superior officer.
If Ms Davis is to fall under the category of conscientious objector then she should be given the opportunity for alternative service. Soem job other than county clerk. Or, she can face the consequences of disobeying the law.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Well it turns out that while the Pope was wandering around the U.S. he had a private audience with Kim Davis. It's apparently in line with speeches he made about Religious Freedom. Apparently the right to keep homos from being marriage trumps her being remarried multiple times.
Same shit, different Pontiff.
Do you have some record of what he said to her? Because I couldn't find anything online. For all I know he could have told her to grow the fuck up.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
From what I've seen online, and none of it would be reliable enough to link to IMO, it was a private meeting and the only record of it are what Ms Davis herself has said (ABC interview). Apparently, the Pope said "Thank you for your courage ... Stay strong" and gave here a rosary. Which, to me, seems like a generic blessing he might give to anyone brought to him, rather than any specific comment on her cause.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Huffpost's Gay Voices section has an opinion piece about this:
"How Pope Francis Undermined the Goodwill of His Trip and Proved to Be a Coward."
I haven't followed the related articles to which the writer linked; but it looks to me like there may have been some sort of encounter, the Vatican has kinda sorta acknowledged it, and Davis's lawyer is the only source of what was actually said.
If he really is the only source, I'd take his comments with a couple of wagon trains full of salt.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I find myself unsurprised that the pope is Catholic.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If Ms Davis is to fall under the category of conscientious objector then she should be given the opportunity for alternative service. Soem job other than county clerk...
I don't think that can work with an elected official.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I find myself unsurprised that the pope is Catholic.
But that an Apostolic Pentecostal Christian would want to see the Pope is quite surprising. The (admittedly very limited) I've had with Apostolic Christians would tend to suggest they consider "Papists" as even more of a danger to the faith than homosexuals.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Obviously, meeting with somebody is not the same as endorsing that person's views. The Pope met with Fidel Castro, for crying out loud!
However, in the press conference just before he left the US, the Pope was asked a question that was clearly referencing the Davis case.
quote:
Father Lombardi: Thank you, Holy Father. Now it is the turn of Terry Moran of ABC News, one of the great American networks.
Terry Morgan: Holy Father, thank you very much, and thanks to the Vatican staff as well. Holy Father, you visited the Little Sisters of the Poor, and we were told that you wanted to show your support for the Sisters, also in their court case. Holy Father, do you also support those individuals, including government officials, who say they cannot in good conscience, their personal conscience, comply with certain laws or carry out their duties as government officials, for example in issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples? Would you support those of claims of religious freedom?
Pope Francis: I can’t foresee every possible case of conscientious objection. But yes, I can say conscientious objection is a right, and enters into every human right. It is a right, and if a person does now allow for conscientious objection, he or she is denying a right. Every legal system should provide for conscientious objection because it is a right, a human right. Otherwise, we would end up selecting between rights: “this right is good, this one less so”. It is a human right. I am always moved when I read, and I have read it many times, when I read the “Chanson de Roland”, when there were all these Moors lined up before the baptismal font, and they had to choose between baptism and the sword. They had to choose. They weren’t permitted conscientious objection. It’s a right and if we want to have peace, we have to respect all rights.
Terry Morgan: Would that include government officials as well?
Pope Francis: It is a human right. And if a government official is human person, he enjoys that right. It is a human right.
We can quibble over whether ABC should be described as a "great" network.
I find it interesting that the example the Pope gives is of somebody being forced into baptism, and he is stating that that violates their human rights.
To the extent that the question was framed to reflect the Davis case, it seems clear to me that the Pope was not willing to go beyond classifying it as conscientious objection--he did not go so far as stating that the objector has the right to obstruct others in the performance of their duties. I don't have a problem with that. My problem with Ms. Davis is not that she, in her conscience, does not feel she can issue the licenses. My problem with her is that she thinks she can force others to comply with her viewpoints contrary to law.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Davis is not a conscientious objector. She is not fighting for her beliefs, but for the right to impose them upon others.
Signing a paper with a civil authority has naught to do with her beliefs. No one is hurt, her faith is not affected, God does not have a signature on the paper.
She is an idiot championed by bigots and idiots.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I don't think that can work with an elected official.
The last I heard, you had to actually volunteer to stand for election. You don't just have our name called and get dragged of the street and pressed in to government service fir a few years.
We do indeed allow for conscientious objection - when we have conscription, we don't force objectors into the army, but allow them to perform other service instead (for example, Quaker ambulance drivers in the War...)
But this is the key - they do something else. You can't sign up as a soldier, get assigned to some post or other, and then decide that you don't want to fire a weapon, but actually you quite like the shiny uniform so you'd like to remain a soldier.
It doesn't violate any of Davis's rights to tell her to walk, just as it doesn't violate the rights of a conscientious objector to not appoint him to command a cavalry regiment.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Conscientious objectors go to jail instead of allowing themselves to be drafted into the army. Voluntarily. Part of their civil disobedience is to willfully march into the jail and allow themselves to be booked. Or accept whatever alternatives there are to fighting. Otherwise they are not being a conscientious objector but they are being a scofflaw. People who fled to Canada to escape the draft were not conscientious objectors. They were draft-dodgers. The two are not the same thing.
If Kim Davis were a conscientious objector she would seek a different position, or find another way of fulfilling her sworn duty without doing whatever is unacceptable to her conscience. She wouldn't try to block the system or stop others from doing their jobs. Someone who tries to prevent others from joining the army has ceased to be a conscientious objector and is on their way to being a terrorist, depending on their means.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Someone should have asked him whether it's okay for someone to be a priest when they don't want to perform baptisms.
Because that would have been a far closer analogy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Today the Vatican is saying that the meeting was not private and was not an endorsement of Kim Davis and what's she's doing. Somehow I trust their version more than I trust Ms. Davis and her lawyer.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Today the Vatican is saying that the meeting was not private and was not an endorsement of Kim Davis and what's she's doing. Somehow I trust their version more than I trust Ms. Davis and her lawyer.
Here's a link that isn't behind a paywall.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
And it is now being reported that the Pope also met privately with a gay couple, with one of the couple speaking quite favorably about him.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
So, it sounds like the overarching message was, " Not taking sides!" Fair enough, I guess.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Actually, the story about the couple was quite happy making. I didn't realize how disappointed in Francis I was,
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yahoo also has a surprisingly good, long article.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
From the article, RE: Davis' lawyer: quote:
That’s not out of character for Staver, who was forced to admit last week that a photo he presented at the Values Voters Summit, which he claimed showed a 100,000-person prayer rally to support Davis in Peru, was taken in 2014 and did not, in fact, have anything to do with Davis.
Kim, honey, cut this bozo loose. He is doing you no favors.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
And may I point out another bit from the Vatican statement as quoted in the Yahoo article (with emphasis):
quote:
The statement stressed that “the only real audience” — private meeting— “granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.” As CNN reported Friday afternoon, that student, Yayo Grass, happens to be an openly gay man who brought along his partner of 19 years.
The Vatican refers to a former student and his family--and the family is his same-sex partner.
Kelly, when I first heard the Davis news I too felt disappointed in Francis. And, yes, this news cheers me, but also shames me. Why? Because, despite defending the Pope, in my heart I had passed judgment on him. That might be a common and normal thing to do, but here's the thing: from what I have seen and heard of him, I honestly don't think Francis would have done the same to me. And that shames me.
I think I will go and do what Pope Francis asked so frequently for us to do while he was here: to pray for him. To ask God to take care of him. Because I think he is a far better man than I am.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( shrug) I don't feel ashamed of myself. It took me a while to identify my feelings of disappointment. Someone disappointing you doesn't mean they have done something wrong, it's just a feeling. I was trying to work through that feeling toward accepting that I didn't agree with him, but still thought he was a good man.
I was just really happy at the turn of events. Happiness is rare enough, I'd like to sit with it for a while.
[ 03. October 2015, 00:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I'll admit I was a teeny bit skeptical when Kim Davis seemed to be claiming the Pope's approval. When the Vatican finally dropped the other shoe, my first thought was, "Well yeah, he's not stupid." I'm impressed - ISTM he was kind and discreet but when Davis took advantage of that, <boom>. And still in a really classy way.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The New York Times article on the topic pointed out that She may have been invited by the Papal Nuncio and the Pope and Vatican were unaware of the consequences. The article said to watch if the Cardinal gets an exemption from the retire at 75 rule in January. They were speculating he might not since he dropped this mess on the Pope who was trying to avoid conflict.
There's a wide range of possibilities here; the Pope may be backtracking after seeing how the reaction to this is clouding his work, he may have been being used by the Papal Nuncio for conservative American politics, or Davis or her lawyer may have seized the opportunity for another 10 minutes of fame.
My favorite line in the article was about the instructions to her that she would be picked by Vatican car and she should do something to conceal her hair so she wasn't recognized. I can imagine this patrol of gay hairdressers keeping an eye on the pope's visitors.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
In other news about wayward clerks
Mormons Say Duty to Law on Same-Sex Marriage Trumps Faith
Dallin Oaks, an apostle of the church said in a speech
quote:
“Office holders remain free to draw upon their personal beliefs and motivations and advocate their positions in the public square,” Elder Oaks said. “But when acting as public officials, they are not free to apply personal convictions, religious or other, in place of the defined responsibilities of their public offices. All government officers should exercise their civil authority according to the principles and within the limits of civil government.”
It was made clear that this did not change the view of the Church on same-sex marriage.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Oakes was also a Utah supreme court justice in the early 1980s (he stepped down when he became one of the top leaders of the Mormons) and rumored to have been considered for the US Supreme Court.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I wonder if Oaks got to thinking about all the bad ways Mormons were treated, especially early on, and figured another group of people shouldn't have to go through that.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I wonder if Oaks got to thinking about all the bad ways Mormons were treated, especially early on, and figured another group of people shouldn't have to go through that.
To my mind, it's likely the outcome of the Utah War of the 1850s also had something to do with it. While the Mormons managed to avoid major bloodshed in their confrontation with the U.S. Army, the end of the conflict brought the (slow) decline of Mormon power in the western U.S.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
To my mind, it's likely the outcome of the Utah War of the 1850s also had something to do with it. While the Mormons managed to avoid major bloodshed in their confrontation with the U.S. Army, the end of the conflict brought the (slow) decline of Mormon power in the western U.S.
Yeah, now they only control Utah, southern Idaho, and bits of Arizona.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
To my mind, it's likely the outcome of the Utah War of the 1850s also had something to do with it. While the Mormons managed to avoid major bloodshed in their confrontation with the U.S. Army, the end of the conflict brought the (slow) decline of Mormon power in the western U.S.
Yeah, now they only control Utah, southern Idaho, and bits of Arizona.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
They certainly don't have the level of control they did in the early 1850s - at that point, Brigham Young was territorial governor, and the government and church hierarchy were virtually indistinguishable. While there are a large number of Mormons in public office in the region, simply due to demographics, it's not the theocratic regime it once was.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I'm fond of the opening of a speech of a Utah delegate to a Democratic Convention;
"And from Utah, where the separation of Church and State is exactly one city block...."
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LOL, Palimpsest.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm fond of the opening of a speech of a Utah delegate to a Democratic Convention;
"And from Utah, where the separation of Church and State is exactly one city block...."
Very true!
Oddly enough, I was in Salt Lake City (for the Episcopal General Convention) when I started this thread.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
And on a less happy note, Mormons sharpen stand against same-sex marriage
Mormons in a same sex marriage are guilty of apostasy and drummed out. Any child of a same sex married family will not be given religious rites until they are over 18 and not living with the family and denounce same sex marriage.
This formalizes the church position against same sex marriage, but it's sad to watch them treat kids that way. Then again, it's probably a pretty toxic place for a kid from a same-sex parent family.
It will be interesting to watch as they turn away part of the next generation of Mormons. It will also be interesting to see if this inspires the Catholic Church to similar actions.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
And on a less happy note, Mormons sharpen stand against same-sex marriage
Mormons in a same sex marriage are guilty of apostasy and drummed out. Any child of a same sex married family will not be given religious rites until they are over 18 and not living with the family and denounce same sex marriage.
This formalizes the church position against same sex marriage, but it's sad to watch them treat kids that way. Then again, it's probably a pretty toxic place for a kid from a same-sex parent family.
It will be interesting to watch as they turn away part of the next generation of Mormons. It will also be interesting to see if this inspires the Catholic Church to similar actions.
Some of the Mormon boards are seething. One Mormon mother noted that her former husband is now married to another man. She gets along well with him and they share joint custody of their children. He is willing to have the children raised LDS and takes them to the LDS church when they are staying with him; however, the new policy means the children can't be baptized (usually done at age 8) and the boys can't be ordained (usually done in the early teens) until they are 18 or even blessed and then only if they explicitly renounce their father and his new spouse.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Ah, sweet religion. Tearing families apart since 10,000 BCE.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
You'd think they'd WANT to give the kids every religious support that they could, given that they think the parents are living in sin.
Some years back, there was a news story about a kid being kicked out of a Christian daycare or school, because the kid had two mommies. I had the some opinion of that.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Another article in the NY times today pointed out the defer till 18 and out of household is the rule they use with the children of polygamous marriages. So they have a repertoire of techniques to deal with unacceptable marriages.
It will be interesting to see if there's any pushback in the Church. In some ways this feels like there are multiple factions trying to present a united front. "Don't persecute GBLT folk; that's our job".
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
You'd think they'd WANT to give the kids every religious support that they could, given that they think the parents are living in sin.
Isn't this the same discussion we had a while back about baptism for the non-religious? You know the deal - couple wants their baby baptized because Granny expects it, but asks the vicar to keep that God stuff to a minimum.
There's one school of thought that says "every little helps" and happily baptized all comers, and maybe the occasional person will come back, and there's the other school of thought that says that when infants are baptized, parents are making promises about how to raise that child, and parents who aren't Christian and don't attend church are unable to keep those promises, so infant baptism in their case is silly.
Isn't this just the same as the second school of thought?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not quite. The Mormon decision focuses on one aspect of otherwise practicing faithful.
Your Christian example is about general disregard to the entire belief system.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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