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Source: (consider it) Thread: Theresa May to resign, when?
Mark Wuntoo
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Theresa May:

1. consistently avoided meeting people face-to-face during the election. Lots more can be said about the campaign but it’s all been said and doesn’t need rehearsing here

2. went too speedily to see the Queen (it’s said that Her Majesty was a bit upset but how that can be verified I’ve no idea)

3. returned to Downing Street and read from a prepared speech (I saw her turn the page) and stated that she had been to see the queen and was now to form a government, thus not using the usual language of protocol (Her Majesty has asked me …)

4. is cosying up to an organisation the effect of which is likely to harm Northern Ireland

5. visited the emergency services after the tragic fire in west London but not the victims of the fire or residents in Notting Hill; she did visit some in hospital but it was a very clinical (excuse me) meeting

6. belatedly received victims of the fire in Downing Street, not on the streets of Notting Hill.

Mrs May now seems to be getting a bit of a grilling from the media and about time, too. There is growing anger directed to her in the country, it seems.

Any suggestions on when she will go?

I am thinking very quickly after the Queen’s Speech if that ever happens.

Note: I didn't even mention the 19 pairs of shoes she wore during the election. [Big Grin]

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Bishops Finger
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She has been weighed in the balance, and found wanting.

I have (in All Saints) asked peeps to pray for her, beleaguered as she is, with all her faults and failings, as she is only human (like the rest of us).

For her own soul's sake, and for the sake of the country, she should throw in the towel.

Now.

She will then, I hope, be remembered, as a person of some integrity. There is no shame, IMHO, in admitting honestly that you're not up to the job.

IJ

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Mark Wuntoo
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Seems she visited the scene of the fire yesterday - I missed that. The residents apparently didn't miss her and made their feelings very obvious: she had to be accompanied out of the area with a police escort.

BTW I am no royalist but I have to admire HM for visiting the scene of the fire and, this morning, for standing for the minute's silence without the aid of a stick (as did Philip).

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Bishops Finger
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Well, it seems that Jeremy Corbyn, and Sadiq Khan, certainly beat May in the race to visit the victims, with HM the Q (who is, after all, Very Old) close behind.

May's failure to engage immediately with those directly affected (whatever the logistical or other reasons - or excuses - might have been) was a huge mistake on her part.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Mark Wuntoo
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It isn't just the facts of the visits, it's the way that they interacted with people. Jeremy Corbyn showed complete empathy with people, his body language showed just how much he cared and was affected by it all. I have to admit I didn't see TV coverage of Mrs May's visit - but I did read that one person described her as 'cold like a fish', which fits with her general persona.

Edited to add: it seems that one reason given for Mrs May's non-visit to local people on Thursday was the question of security. How ironic, then, that HM visited on the following day?

[ 17. June 2017, 15:56: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]

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mr cheesy
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I don't think she's going to quit unless all of the other EU leaders tell her that they can't negotiate with her because she has no political credibility.

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Nicolemr
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What happens if she does resign? Who takes over?

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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
What happens if she does resign? Who takes over?

This could be the strongest argument for her staying - nobody will want the job. Not that I think that's a reason to stay: if she wants to go, she should be allowed to go.

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mark_in_manchester

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She was going to get a kicking whatever she did, in a way that Corbyn or HMQ weren't. What a shit job.

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(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Pigwidgeon

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TIME Magazine is referring to this as "Theresa May's Hurricane Katrina Moment" -- comparing it to George Bush's poor response after the devastation in New Orleans in 2005.

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Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
What happens if she does resign? Who takes over?

Procedurally, the Conservatives would have a leadership election and whoever wins would take over from Mrs May as PM (just as she took over from David Cameron as PM when she became leader of the party). I don't know the ins and outs of Conservative party rules about who would be leader during that time: when John Major resigned as leader after the 1997 general election, he remained in post until the leadership election was complete.

Weirdly, as far as I can tell, the Tories don't have a deputy leader, neither is there a deputy prime minister, so there's no one automatically to take her place if she decided not to see things through until the leadership election was completed (though according to Wikipedia, the Deputy Prime Minister doesn't automatically become Prime Minister when the latter resigns or becomes incapacitated). Damian Green is "First Secretary of State", which apparently makes him effectively second only to the PM in terms of authority in the cabinet; whether he would step up to the plate in those circumstances I don't know.

And I don't know much more than that, I'm afraid!

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Pangolin Guerre
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Point of clarification, please. As Home Secretary, would May have had to wear ministerial responsibility over issues like safety regulations regarding materials and practices regarding fire alarms, etc.? If so, would not the fire be something of a political body blow?
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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
What happens if she does resign? Who takes over?

Jeremy Corbyn?

Explanation: everybody (well, most) now realise that Brexit negotiations will be too difficult.

Vote of no-confidence puts Labour in who are not really committed to Brexit but to something bigger.

I think this vote of confidence is likely to come after the Queen's Speech - whatever, she will see this through and then resign.

It becomes increasingly clear (I'm not suggesting any manipulation) that Brexit will be a disaster for the UK. Jeremy puts the agreed deal to Parliament and it is rejected. Macron is right - we can stay.

She must feel that life is not worth the candle at the moment, although I have little sympathy for her. Go, get a life somewhere else.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
... It becomes increasingly clear (I'm not suggesting any manipulation) that Brexit will be a disaster for the UK. ...

But Corbyn and McDonnell

a. haven't a majority either, and

b. are both Brexiteers, an inconvenient fact that some of those who adulate him are choosing to turn a blind eye to.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
She was going to get a kicking whatever she did, in a way that Corbyn or HMQ weren't. What a shit job.

Yep. It can be a shit job. Which is why it's important for the person who puts herself forward for it doesn't do the job in a shit way.

The least one can expect from a national leader based in London is for that leader to be fairly instantly on the scene of a London tragedy (if not travelling) to stand with the people involved. It wouldn't have been impossible, either, to have issued a quick statement of response from Number 10, for breakfast TV, however formulaic it might've been.

The ink on the ballot forms was hardly dry when Theresa May announced that the Queen had asked her to form a new government. It wouldn't have hurt anything for her to have been as equally prompt and eager to demonstrate horror at the fire, and support for London's emergency services and the community response.

(And bear in mind, too, that the Queen - and other royals - got a huge kicking after Diana's death; both in the media and via vox pop, for not allegedly providing the nation with the response it wanted to see. That did begin to change, of course, when she eventually went up to London.)

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Mark Wuntoo
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Sorry didn't make it clear. Vote of no-confidence results in a general election and Labour gets in.

JC is not a Remainer because he wants something bigger, he's not actually committed to being a Brexiteer ISTM.

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rolyn
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It can be a shit job.
Remember how Blair visibly aged when it became clear the Iraq venture was not turning out as it was hoped at the time.

May will go when her position becomes untenable due to back stabbing by her own party, not because of Corbyn being hailed as the new messiah.

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andras
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May's apparent lack of any sort of emotional response to this or any other event, and her famous inability to give a direct answer to any question make me wonder if she has Asperger's or some similar syndrome.

But I am not any sort of expert and don't mind being shot down in flames!

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PaulTH*
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That Mrs May has gone from hero to zero in eight short weeks is a sure sign that she's not up to the job. Though I find these party leaders' head to head debates, American style, quite tacky, they're here to stay and any politician who needs to avoid them needs to avoid being party leader. I believe it when I hear that she was reduced to tears by the sight of devastation at the fire, any Christian would be, but her failure to engage was conspicuous alongside Jeremy Corbyn's high profile visits, and the ease with which the Queen and Prince William slotted into the proceedings. But when will she resign?

I suspect that many of the people who are willing her to fail and willing her administration to crash are those who want to install Jeremy Corbyn in Downing St, even though he just lost a general election. He'll probably get there, but only if he gets voted in. If Mrs May can't get a Queens Speech through parliament, she and her administration will go quickly. If she survives that, the Tory Party will let the dust of the present situation settle, and then they'll knife her. They won't, under any circumstances, let her lead them into another election.

Prime Ministers in the past have found the job a poisoned chalice. Gordon Brown coveted the job for ten years and when he got there, it turned to dust in his hands. The same thing has happened to Theresa May and as with Brown, I have an element of sympathy for her.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
... JC is not a Remainer because he wants something bigger, he's not actually committed to being a Brexiteer ISTM.

Corbyn is a Brexiteer because having to fit in with the EU gets in the way of his dream of Socialism in one Country.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
those who want to install Jeremy Corbyn in Downing St, even though he just lost a general election.

If you don't win and the other person doesn't win then you draw.

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Enoch
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Much though I dislike the current versions of both parties intensely, one cannot avoid the fact that Mrs May's got more seats and more votes than Mr Corbyn's.

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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
... JC is not a Remainer because he wants something bigger, he's not actually committed to being a Brexiteer ISTM.

Corbyn is a Brexiteer because having to fit in with the EU gets in the way of his dream of Socialism in one Country.
His dream is bigger than that, I think it's for 'one world'.

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Much though I dislike the current versions of both parties intensely

This is one on which we agree wholeheartedly!

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Much though I dislike the current versions of both parties intensely, one cannot avoid the fact that Mrs May's got more seats and more votes than Mr Corbyn's.

The think is our system doesn't work like that. You need to form a government with a parliamentary majority. WHether you get the most votes - or even the most seats - is not the point. If you don't have a clear majority, you need to find other parties to support you.

The truth is that Corbyn could find wider support that May. But not enough. May has made a deal from hell to stay in, because she was forced to. But she hads an effective majority of 6, which is very shaky.

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Gramps49
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What is Ms May's connection to the Tower Fire?
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Eutychus
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1. "Optics".

It's a major disaster in the nation's capital and it is expected of a national leader that they issue an appropriate response to such events and are seen to be present on the site in solidarity with the victims (living and dead) at the earliest opportunity thereafter.

Doing so is a way of demonstrating that they are the leader of the entire nation and not just those who voted for them.

Not doing so suggests indifference or even disdain. (cf Bush and Katrina).

2. The fire took place in an area run by a Conservative council (same as May) split between a relatively poor north (where the tower is) and an extremely affluent south. As such it is a microcosm of the country as a whole. The council has been unbelievably inept in its crisis management. It's hard not to draw parallels.

3. The event has profoundly affected an already fragged UK, and she is not providing the moral leadership one expects of one's leaders at such times.

As the Sunday Times puts it this morning
quote:
when the Queen is our chief consoler, you know the PM is lost
.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
... JC is not a Remainer because he wants something bigger, he's not actually committed to being a Brexiteer ISTM.

Corbyn is a Brexiteer because having to fit in with the EU gets in the way of his dream of Socialism in one Country.
Ooo, the oh-so-subtle insinuation that Corbyn is a Stalinist. FFS...
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mr cheesy
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It is also being said that the Tory gov have been putting off a review of fire safety regulations for years and have been cutting back on mandatory fire safety checks in the name of "cutting red tape".

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
... JC is not a Remainer because he wants something bigger, he's not actually committed to being a Brexiteer ISTM.

Corbyn is a Brexiteer because having to fit in with the EU gets in the way of his dream of Socialism in one Country.
Ooo, the oh-so-subtle insinuation that Corbyn is a Stalinist. FFS...
A great insult as he's not a Stalinist, but rather a Trot.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Don't make me laugh; it's a sign of how mainstream politics had lurched to the right in recent years that such epithets are used for a moderate democratic socialist like Corbyn outside the swivel-eyed wing of the Tory party.

Meanwhile, the answer to the OP is surely when someone finds the last Horcrux.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by andras:
May's apparent lack of any sort of emotional response to this or any other event, and her famous inability to give a direct answer to any question make me wonder if she has Asperger's or some similar syndrome.

But I am not any sort of expert and don't mind being shot down in flames!

No, I'll just leave it that you're working with the cartoon version of Asperger's.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Mark Wuntoo
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The Times is reporting that Tory backbenchers are giving Theresa May just 10 days to get her act together.

The BBC is reporting that this Parliamentary session will last two years, so no Queen's Speech next year. This to enable more Commons discussion of Brexit - believe that if you like.

And still no news of a deal with the DUP.

What a shambles!

TEN DAYS?

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Martin60
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She and the North Kensington council cannot learn from this that they have nothing to lose by getting stuck in on the ground.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is also being said that the Tory gov have been putting off a review of fire safety regulations for years and have been cutting back on mandatory fire safety checks in the name of "cutting red tape".

It can't be just coincidence that disasters similar to this recent event have happened under a Tory regimes.
Many of use must recall the series of tragedies that occurred through the 80's under the Conservatives. A familiar pattern emerged of initial shock and horror followed by a list of recommendations, some of which were obviously not enforced otherwise why are we back in the same place some 30 years later?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Her response after meeting with representatives of those effected and the task force was better, to be fair.

They've now got the Red Cross organising the volunteers and donation and a team of civil servants shipped in to support co-ordation of information etc.

The most woeful response has been the council's. The government was slow to pick up on, and mitigate, that.

[ 18. June 2017, 07:43: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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They don't just need to be reviewing fire safety in all tower blocks, they need to be getting each council to review its disaster planning.

Normally the UK is good at that sort of thing, which is why the chaos on the ground is so shocking.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Ooo, the oh-so-subtle insinuation that Corbyn is a Stalinist. FFS...

No, as I've said before on these threads, I'm insinuating that he thinks he's Lenin. At the moment, his coming from nowhere and now having the wind in his sails is feeding that fantasy.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
His dream is bigger than that, I think it's for 'one world'.

Three questions, Mark:-

1. How would you persuade me there isn't a marked element of false messianism in that statement?

2. Are you sure that isn't your own projection? and

3. Apart from the way all of us would like to see that - it's an equivalent of motherhood and apple pie - is there any evidence either that there is a specific Corbyn version of it, or a specific and credible Corbyn programme for bringing it about.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7233 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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quote:
...it seems that one reason given for Mrs May's non-visit to local people on Thursday was the question of security. How ironic, then, that HM visited on the following day?
The Queen has lived with the fear of assassination for most of her life, and has never let it interfere with doing what she sees as her duty.

Also, nobody is holding the Queen responsible for the disaster or expecting her to do anything about it (as her powers are limited). So all she had to do was express sympathy. Mrs May has to answer difficult questions such as "Why did this happen?" and "What are you going to do to stop things like this happening again?" and it's already been established that she doesn't like difficult questions.

Posts: 3866 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
What happens if she does resign? Who takes over?

This is one of my biggest questions and worries. Options would seem ot include Boris, Gove and Hunt, none of whom I would trust to open an envelope. There are others I am sure, but the very heirarchical nature of the Tory party would tend to rule them out.

Oddly enough, Boris might be one politically minded enough to cancel Brexit (and survive). But he only does things for his personal advantage, so he would be a disaster in every single area.

The Tories do have a serious lack of leadership in their party - not just May, but anyone else who could lead the party towards unity.

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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Ooo, the oh-so-subtle insinuation that Corbyn is a Stalinist. FFS...

No, as I've said before on these threads, I'm insinuating that he thinks he's Lenin. At the moment, his coming from nowhere and now having the wind in his sails is feeding that fantasy.

I think if there's a fantasy here it's yours. Why attribute Stalin's ideology to Corbyn if you're not trying to make that insinuation?
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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689

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The fundamental problem is that the Conservatives are right royally screwed at the moment. It is that simple. Plan A to unite the party (A referendum so that they could shut up the Brexiteers for 10+ years) was a failure. Plan B to unite the party (aka the 'we all know Jeremy Corbyn is a sad loser, lets try and make the country believe that so we can get a super-majority that we can gerrymander to a permanent Conservative Government') was a second and I would suggest rather more catastrophic failure. Rather than a significant dimming of the in-fighting by both attempts, failing at both passes has caused the in-fighting to multiply. The uneasy coalition that the Conservative Party is is starting to unravel, and replacing May would just accelerate that process.

[ 18. June 2017, 11:06: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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The thing I cannot get my head round is Theresa May herself. Surely she realises she has flunked it? Surely she sees the writing on the wall in terms of the task ahead and the continual battering that she will get from all sides? Surely she is not so masochistic that she is staying of her own free will? Do Tory leaders simply do as they are told? Surely she realises that pressure to stay is not about 'We love you' rather than 'We have no-one else we love'?

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I think she has a sense of duty - and despised Cameron for just walking away from the mess he'd made.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
The thing I cannot get my head round is Theresa May herself. Surely she realises she has flunked it? Surely she sees the writing on the wall in terms of the task ahead and the continual battering that she will get from all sides? Surely she is not so masochistic that she is staying of her own free will? Do Tory leaders simply do as they are told? Surely she realises that pressure to stay is not about 'We love you' rather than 'We have no-one else we love'?

She simply has to stay, to preserve the Tory govt. If she quit, another leadership election would be bizarre and laughable. She can't call another general election, because Labour might easily win.

I suppose it suits Labour at the moment. Quote from Napoleon, never interrupt your opponent when they're cocking things up (rough paraphrase).

But who is going to predict the next steps? Only a fool. The Tories could rebuild. Well, pigs can do ballet.

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no path

Posts: 9515 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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So I suppose it's 'selfishness' and quit or 'hypocrisy' and stay when you know you are not up to the job. And she a vicar's daughter. I know that's an over-simplification. I couldn't be in her (19 pairs of [Big Grin] ) shoes.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Calling it hypocrisy is a bit weird. It's what politicians do, they keep going, well, usually. And if she quit now, she would go down in history as a big time loser. She has a chance to survive, and keep the Tories alive. A Labour government is their ultimate no-no.

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no path

Posts: 9515 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I just drove past the tower. OMG, what an awful sight. We went silent in the car, then tears, anger, disgust. How can anyone understand this?

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no path

Posts: 9515 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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To an extent, Tory leaders do do as they are told. Especially when they are under pressure. The party has to retain a facade of unity.

In fact, they are very much controlled by the party all along. This is particulalry the case when they are weak leaders (like May and Cameron), because they are simply put up as a froont, with others controlling the party in reality.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18499 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
This is particulalry the case when they are weak leaders (like May and Cameron)

As a tangent I'm not sure that Cameron was actually that 'weak' in the conventional sense. Very few Tory leaders have lasted for longer.

Ultimately I'm not sure on what level he actually 'cared' about the job, beyond thinking he'd be 'rather good at it' and it was hubris that brought him down in the end, at which point he could no longer be arsed.

[ 18. June 2017, 16:34: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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