|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Theresa May to resign, when?
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Alan: quote:
Should someone tell the Tories that if they're going to break the election rules they should at least win the election?
Well, that's just it; they thought they were going to or they'd never have called it. And they never do seem to think that the rules apply to them.
Presumably if they had won the election we would all now be marching in lockstep towards a Brave New World.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I don't think public sentiment is really moving in the Conservative party's direction. ¹
---
¹ Telegraph
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I don't think public sentiment is really moving in the Conservative party's direction. ¹
---
¹ Telegraph
I don't think Conservative Party sentiment is moving in Theresa May's direction either. The Welsh and Scottish Conservatives could be especially cheesed off by a Brexit deal favouring "Unionist" interests in Northern Ireland.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
If it wasn't an unholy mess before May's snap Election it is beginning to reassemble one now. Not even sure that another Election with a Labour victory would make much difference.
The bitter trials of NI affaiars are an enigma which have defied politicians of all colours for decades.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If it wasn't an unholy mess before May's snap Election it is beginning to reassemble one now. Not even sure that another Election with a Labour victory would make much difference.
The bitter trials of NI affaiars are an enigma which have defied politicians of all colours for decades.
So, calling for a referendum on Brexit, which almost no politician supporting it actually wanted to pass, to appease people who had no clue as to what it would entail, giving the resultant mess to TM on the basis that she hadn't fucked herself over as badly as the more qualified candidates, pretend "being tough" would overcome a deficit in power during negotiations to try to get back what not leaving already gave. That was not an unholy mess?
Just what kind of mess was it, then?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
a couple of years is enough time for a few by-elections that could push things either way.
And, those by-elections may not be that far off. Should someone tell the Tories that if they're going to break the election rules they should at least win the election?
Is this NEW news or does it refer to the last election, about which we already knew?
This is new. This is paid (allegedly) canvassing for tory candidates in the 2017 GE, which (if proven) would be a clear violation of election law and ought to see the result in any affected seat held by the tories overturned. I wouldn't be surprised to find, however, that the list of these seats that the tories actually now hold is quite small - what they though were marginals probably weren't.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
The seats listed in that article are Caerphilly, Camarthen East, Ceredigion, Pontypridd, Torfaen, Newport West, Bridgend, Gower, Clywd South and Wrexham. According to Wikipedia, these are respectively Labour, Plaid Cymru, Plaid Cymru, Labour, Labour, Labour, Labour, Labour, Labour, and Labour.
It does not appear that their alleged illegal paid canvassers gave good value for money ...
[ 24. June 2017, 20:58: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
The concentration on Welsh seats either suggests this was a Welsh tory initiative (unlikely; they're not known for even this level of sophistication) or it's one part of a national operation.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I suppose my concern would be, if they did this in wales - where else did they do it ? Did it affect the election result elsewhere - if so do some results need to be voided.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
I dunno, thinking about it, whether it succeeded or not, is this not basically Watergate if true? As in, flat-out illegal activity for the purpose of electoral advantage? It's qualitatively different from the battlebus scandal, where you can always argue that it's just an accounting issue.
(My idle, evidence-free speculation is that they saw that poll that suggested they could get a majority in Wales and realised they had hardly any activists in Wales who would help it come to fruition. Whereas in England they do have an activist base.)
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
The point I'm getting at is that if this is true, it's not something that could be fixed just by re-running a few constituency elections. It's something that would be fixed by impeachment, if impeachment was an option over here.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
It would be interesting to know if it had any effect though, see that the Tories lost both Gower (very marginal) and Cardiff North (thought to be safe and the last blue blob in the Cardiff area) to Labour. They did however hold Vale of Glamorgan, albeit with a greatly reduced majority.
My wife, who is a political activist, is in no doubt that what the Tories did is illegal.
[ 25. June 2017, 08:08: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The point I'm getting at is that if this is true, it's not something that could be fixed just by re-running a few constituency elections. It's something that would be fixed by impeachment, if impeachment was an option over here.
Oh it is an option, just not one that has been used in some time.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The point I'm getting at is that if this is true, it's not something that could be fixed just by re-running a few constituency elections.
After the questions over expenses in 2015, I would have expected all the parties to be particularly careful not to appear to be breaking the regulations. It appears that, even if the Conservatives managed to stay just inside the line with this call centre thing (we'll need to wait until any investigation is concluded), they weren't really being that careful to make sure there were no legal questions hanging over the election. The specific incident, if true, didn't affect the results as far as we can tell. But, with political parties pushing the limits of what's permitted it seems unlikely that this is the only example of questionable activity, and in some cases that may raise questions about the results in specific constituencies. I do wonder whether the fines charged by the electoral commission are effective - they could easily be rolled into the overall costs of the election by the accountants in the main parties.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
From the Bullingdon club to slum landlords to dodgy tax deals, the rich have always had a contingency convinced the rules to not apply to them.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Some people are being prosecuted.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, calling for a referendum on Brexit, which almost no politician supporting it actually wanted to pass, to appease people who had no clue as to what it would entail, giving the resultant mess to TM on the basis that she hadn't fucked herself over as badly as the more qualified candidates, pretend "being tough" would overcome a deficit in power during negotiations to try to get back what not leaving already gave. That was not an unholy mess?
Just what kind of mess was it, then?
That was the mess caused inadvertently by a Tory Party which was endeavouring to tighten it's grip on Power, while at the same time trying to slay it's demons. Now, as irony will often have it's way, we appear to be one Election away from the most Socialist Labour agenda since the war.
Cameron's "For goodness sake man,(Corbyn). Just go!" looks increasingly like coming back to bite the Tories in the pants.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, calling for a referendum on Brexit, which almost no politician supporting it actually wanted to pass, to appease people who had no clue as to what it would entail, giving the resultant mess to TM on the basis that she hadn't fucked herself over as badly as the more qualified candidates, pretend "being tough" would overcome a deficit in power during negotiations to try to get back what not leaving already gave. That was not an unholy mess?
Just what kind of mess was it, then?
That was the mess caused inadvertently by a Tory Party which was endeavouring to tighten it's grip on Power, while at the same time trying to slay it's demons.
It was caused because the chuckleheads have no clue regarding the people they are attempting to govern.
quote:
Now, as irony will often have it's way, we appear to be one Election away from the most Socialist Labour agenda since the war.
OoooOOOoooOOooh, Socialism Boogity, boogity boo!
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Impeachment is a case brought by the Commons and heard by the Lords. Theoretically it still exists, but there hasn't been a case for brought that way for over 200 years.
It wouldn't be either appropriate or likely to happen for electoral offences. First of all they already have due processes under which they can be pursued.
Second Impeachment could probably only arise where the appropriate authority to bring a case was not doing so, and members of the Commons were therefore to decide to instigate the process themselves. One has to assume this would require a majority of MPs to vote to do that. But they would be the government anyway. So unless a majority of MPs were to rebel against the administration, even if it were the appropriate process, it ain't going to happen.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
|
Posted
Jeremy Corbyn seems to me to have shot himself in the foot if reports of his estimate of being Prime Minister in 6 months' time are true. Not a good idea to make such a prediction.
Also John McDonnell has apparently accused the authorities of murdering the victims of the tower block fire. Wrong word to use, John.
The deal has been done with the DUP. At a high financial cost but possibly at a cost to peace in N I and complaints from Scotland and Wales. Corbyn has a wonderful opportunity to make gain from that.
Edited to say I'm sticking with my OP prediction.
[ 26. June 2017, 11:24: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]
--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I think 'murder' is OK to use, in the colloquial sense. I hear 'murdered by austerity' a lot. It reminds me of negligent homicide.
Somebody has to convey the sheer anger and outrage of tenants that complaints and warnings about fire safety were ignored, and regulations waived. You can bet that blocks in millionaire row have sprinklers, better fire alarms, and safer cladding.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I'm sticking with my OP prediction.
Your prediction was 'very quickly' after the Queen's speech.
What does that mean?
One month, two, six?
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
andras
Shipmate
# 2065
|
Posted
I see that the DUP have managed to extort a cool billion quid as their price for supporting the government, in addition to promises of various policies being dropped which would probably never have made it through anyway.
Clearly austerity has its limits when it comes to Mrs. May staying in office.
--------------------
God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
I see that the DUP have managed to extort a cool billion quid as their price for supporting the government, in addition to promises of various policies being dropped which would probably never have made it through anyway.
Clearly austerity has its limits when it comes to Mrs. May staying in office.
Austerity is one thing. The Good Friday Agreement wasn't too healthy before this but with one side of any possible power-sharing executive aligned with the UK government it looks pretty sick now.
Nice work Mrs May. All in the interest of staying in power.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I'm sticking with my OP prediction.
Your prediction was 'very quickly' after the Queen's speech.
What does that mean?
One month, two, six?
Two months at the most. I think (hope, please) that she will get her Queen's Speech through and then say (privately) 'job done, I can go now'. To leave someone else to clear up all the mess of NI and Brexit.
--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
If she doesn't get her Queen's Speech through, do you think she'll go sooner (please, pretty please....)?
When I hear/read her name, I can't help comparing Mrs. May to that famous Liverpool Lady Of Negotiable Affection (thank you, Terry Pratchett IIRC), Maggie May, and her fate...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4GITm7PfY
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If she doesn't get her Queen's Speech through, do you think she'll go sooner (please, pretty please....)?
When I hear/read her name, I can't help comparing Mrs. May to that famous Liverpool Lady Of Negotiable Affection (thank you, Terry Pratchett IIRC), Maggie May, and her fate...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4GITm7PfY
IJ
If she doesn't get her QS through, she will have to resign as PM, give Jeremy two weeks to cobble together a government and, when that fails, contest another General Election.
So she'll get it through. Then it will be the long grind of government by Whips Office and every by-election holding a massive significance until either the government runs out of road or an unexpected swing of public opinion towards the Tories.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
If she doesn't get her Queen's Speech through, do you think she'll go sooner (please, pretty please....)?
IJ
Yes, but, yes, but... I think she will get it through. If not, all sorts of complications re Labour trying to get a Queen's Speech together / calling another election / who gets the blame for 'yet another' election. If she doesn't get it through, presumably the DUP deal is off - that would be good.
--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
|
Posted
Cross-posted with Callan.
--------------------
Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
A billion quid for hiring a bunch of swivel-eyed terrorist supporters in Norn Iron?
Truly, the lunatics have taken over.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
andras
Shipmate
# 2065
|
Posted
According to Paisley Junior MP it's actually one and a half billion. And they've already said they'll be back for more.
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane. (Kipling)
--------------------
God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
A billion quid for hiring a bunch of swivel-eyed terrorist supporters in Norn Iron?
Truly, the lunatics have taken over.
IJ
And to piss-off the other bunch of swivel-eyed terrorist supporters to boot.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I was just wondering how the anger over Grenfell will pan out politically. I live two miles away, and the anger is like a flamethrower, scorching everybody who comes near. Nobody is exempt - for example, Khan got heckled. I think Lammy is accepted - for the moment.
Maybe it will have no effect, or will fade, but you can see it as a terrible symbol of Britain, or maybe England, run down, neglected, deregulated, thrown onto a bonfire of regulations, abandoned, while the rich whine about the view of those horrible tower blocks.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Were it not for the awful effect it would have on former residents (especially those who lost loved ones in the fire), it would almost be worth preserving the blackened ruin of Grenfell Tower as a stark reminder of the worthlessness of our 'government' (local as well as national), and the divide between rich and poor.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Were it not for the awful effect it would have on former residents (especially those who lost loved ones in the fire), it would almost be worth preserving the blackened ruin of Grenfell Tower as a stark reminder of the worthlessness of our 'government' (local as well as national), and the divide between rich and poor.
IJ
Yes. Doubtless Tory politicians and some Labour ones, will try to sweep it into the maw of forgetfulness, via enquiries, interminable council discussions, and so on, usually called, kicking it into the long grass. But Hillsborough does show that if you persevere, you can get justice (of sorts).
But yes, it would too painful a symbol to leave alone.
I forgot to mention the local MP, newly elected of course, Emma Dent Coad, who is working like a Trojan. Thank God she isn't a Tory.
[ 02. July 2017, 16:37: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Mind you, isn't a loving God a stinking dead dog lying next to the Grenfell Tower?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
while the rich whine about the view of those horrible tower blocks.
It's curious that the aesthetic value of cladding has been presented as a rich vs poor issue, almost as if poor people or the residents of these blocks aren't interested in living somewhere that looks nice.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
while the rich whine about the view of those horrible tower blocks.
It's curious that the aesthetic value of cladding has been presented as a rich vs poor issue, almost as if poor people or the residents of these blocks aren't interested in living somewhere that looks nice.
Looks nice?
Spending millions on cosmetic improvements when the tenants have clearly, unequivocally asked for improved fire safety and access?
It's a rich vs poor issue.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
As usual, in Government-By-(Rich)-Headless-Chickens-Land.
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
while the rich whine about the view of those horrible tower blocks.
It's curious that the aesthetic value of cladding has been presented as a rich vs poor issue, almost as if poor people or the residents of these blocks aren't interested in living somewhere that looks nice.
Because the Tories are clamouring to do the will of the poor?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
while the rich whine about the view of those horrible tower blocks.
It's curious that the aesthetic value of cladding has been presented as a rich vs poor issue, almost as if poor people or the residents of these blocks aren't interested in living somewhere that looks nice.
As people who actually live there - and as a number of letters have now shown, they were also interested in living somewhere safe.
It seems that they weren't about to allow themselves to be paid off with shiny beads.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
But, but - they're foreign brown people! Why won't they accept the shiny beads? It worked in the past.....
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
It's curious that the aesthetic value of cladding has been presented as a rich vs poor issue, almost as if poor people or the residents of these blocks aren't interested in living somewhere that looks nice.
Or, perhaps, that the people with the money aren't very interested in spending extra so that poor people can live somewhere that looks nice? You'll find a variety of explanations for this idea - some will say that the poor people don't deserve a pretty building, and that they have to earn anything more than basic utility housing; some will say that council tenants won't respect the fabric of the building because they don't have to repair it themselves.
Ugly tower blocks are all very well in some poor suburb, but they're not suitable for housing poor people in the vicinity of wealthy ones (because the wealthy people have to see it.) If you're housing poor people near actual humans (assuming you can't just shuffle them all off south of the river) then you have to build modest low-rise buildings, that can be hidden on the other side of a convenient park or row of trees.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
while the rich whine about the view of those horrible tower blocks.
It's curious that the aesthetic value of cladding has been presented as a rich vs poor issue, almost as if poor people or the residents of these blocks aren't interested in living somewhere that looks nice.
Looks nice?
Spending millions on cosmetic improvements when the tenants have clearly, unequivocally asked for improved fire safety and access?
It's a rich vs poor issue.
Though, the primary purpose of the cladding was to improve thermal efficiency for the flats - reducing heating bills for residents, reducing damp and associated ill health. Doing that making things look aesthetically pleasing wouldn't cost any more.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot to mention the local MP, newly elected of course, Emma Dent Coad, who is working like a Trojan. Thank God she isn't a Tory.
How can I put this: she won the seat by just 20 votes, which is a lot less than the number of people who died in Grenfell tower. Now make up your own mind how much voting matters.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
|
Posted
I couldn't care less about Brexit at the moment. Nor whether someone is a Stalinist or not (read your history please - no one in British politics espouses Stalinism ....... even Corbin)
1)We have had a major fire in London, and not the first with the same cladding involved, with probably 100+ dead, when all the figures come in. Yet no viable disaster emergency plan was put into force by our politicians, either local or national. Thank God for the community groups; churches, mosques and gurdwaras who swung into action immediately.
Where was May? No doubt, talking about Brexit while people died and were made homeless! Talk about Nero......
The Mayor of London was there next day and has continued to communicate with people, the Queen (not Prince Philip. I think it was Prince William) visited and talked to people. Even Adele came and made cakes for the firemen say thanks! The Red Cross were there immediately on the ground but with no disaster plan or anyone in charge, they did what they could - no one was there from Council or Government organising the effort.
2)Survivors are even getting their rent for the burnt out building still deducted from bank accounts! And as for the Council...........who are more interested in funding opera in Holland Park (a hobby of the Council leader who thankfully has now gone) than dealing with their tenants worries over the years! People are being moved from hotel to hotel. What about these empty mansion blocks round the corner? They say the survivors will be housed later this month, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the new flats will have their rents increased all too soon. This Council has absolutely massive reserves which technically should be used for disasters such as this. Why aren't they using it? The Council shut up shop and send their workers home the day after the fire. They ran scared. So much for leadership!
3)We have teachers (I was one), nurses, doctors, police and fire-people with 1% or less annual increase in salaries, for many years yet prices are rising (I shop!). MP's accept, without question for the most part, substantial salary increases year on year. They have subsidised food and drink in the House restaurants and bars. They can claim back expenses that most of us have to pay out of our salaries. The use of food banks is increasing and politicians seem to think people are using them from choice!! People who are disabled or ill (some illnesses are intermitent and in the chronic stage a suffer cannot hold down a job) loose their benefits, while rich people can sidestep paying taxes and the Government aren't interested in clawing that money back. I don't know what planet they are on .....Zog?
4)We have young people not being able to afford to live, rent or buy, near their work and this has nothing whatsoever to do with immigrants. My son and his wife are such. Yet rich overseas celebrities and Arab Royal Families(sometimes with terrible civil rights issues in their own countries) are being allowed to snap up properties but not live in them for months or at all. Why couldn't they have been requisitioned, even short term and used to house survivors of the fire? London councils, usually Conservative, are chasing out council tenants to "renovate" their properties and then make them into "mansion flats" (with sprinklers and proper fire precautions) at huge rents, ultimately having less flats than the people they de-housed in the first place. Thus sending their former tenants miles away from their families, friends and children's schools. They are putting in place private deals with companies for council housing (note COUNCIL housing) so they can absolve themselves from caring for the housing stock. Being housed adequately is surely a basic right - one many people in Britain today don't.
5) Need I say much about the NHS? I've having to wait 6 months+ for an ENT appointment! Our hospitals are in crisis.
6)Old people's homes are a disgrace in many cases and not properly funded. Old people should have the dignity of proper care when they can't do so themselves - not a quick visit of 15 minutes to be washed, fed and their rooms cleaned by workers who are not paid when they journey from one house to anther - sometimes miles away.
7)School budgets are being cut in real terms yet there is an increase in pupils. Politicians who know nothing about how children learn keep interfering in the nitty-gritty of the curriculum, referring back to some non-existent Golden Age of education i.e. public schools that their rich parents could afford to send them to. The education system is so fractured now and money spent on so called free schools and academies that do no better and sometimes much worse than local authority schools. The clock has been turned back a century or more on education.
8) Alchzimers is NOT a social illness but medical condition so therefore people with it should come under NHS not poor or non-existent social care. We used to have lovely (granted some not so nice but better than the worse "homes" we have now) hospital/homes for old people who were too infirm to look after themselves. My mum worked in one, and we went every Christmas Day to talk to the old folks, laugh with them and listen to them, as did the staff. Why did they close them down and leave old people alone and unable to care for themselves?
9) And then we have a PM selling off votes for money to the DUP. This is downright political corruption. How dare we critisise other countries for political corruption!I would have thought it against the British constitution - do we have one any more?
I won't go on. We need to put our own house in order. Brexit in whatever form is not going to solve these problems.
Oh course May needs to resign.
She has shown a complete dereliction of duty towards the people of her own country.
With the country desperately needing to sort out the care of its resdidents before anything else (most of whom have paid taxes for many, many years)
Yet she refuses to put up taxes by a penny or two to pay for the care and education of our most vulnerable......... just in order to appease the rich.
She says she's a Christian but I think she needs to go back to the Gospels to read what Jesus said.
She has shown a complete lack of judgement in calling the election, expecting to have a landslide. She didn't.
Her judgement is (excuse the language) crap! She should not be British PM
--------------------
wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
wild haggis ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Wow.
What wild haggis said.
With bells on....
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
