|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Nazis are coming to town - what do you do?
|
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
|
Posted
Again, very different in South Africa so not sure what might be helpful here, although I’ve spoken with friends in Boston and Atlanta about this issue of a legal march in defence of what amounts to hate speech (we have intimidatory xenophobic rallies and marches in South Africa but rarely legal).
Not every response has to be immediate and short-term. This kind of march might be countered before and after in various ways.
If the march is taking place in your neighborhood, connect with others in your suburb or street to ensure adequate security measures are in place to prevent any destruction of property or damage to homes or shops. Warn local people beforehand that they need to stay indoors, move cars and close up shops so the marchers will move through deserted streets under security surveillance.
Call local newspapers and ask that journalists be assigned to video what is happening as opposed to what will later be claimed. Ask for helicopters to ensure safe surveillance by local and national media.
Use social media networks to indicate opposition to the upcoming march and if there are any infringements of municipal rules or laws during the march, insist that the authorities investigate, fine the organisers and restrict any further marches.
Circulate petitions online and in the town/city against the disruption and violation of safe space in your neighborhood and organize an after-march to reclaim it as a safe space (women’s groups have done this for years with Take Back the Night walks).
If you know that a vulnerable or oppressed minority are planning a counter-march, help organize medical support and back-up for them in the event of a violent confrontation. If protesters are injured and taken to hospital, they may be willing to speak on video about what happened and this evidence can be used to lay charges against the hate speech marchers.
The most amazing (for me) and effective oppositional tactic to come out of Charlottesville was the collaborative effort on Twitter to identify racist neo-Nazi vigilantes, name and shame them. This led to repercussions from employers and family, loss of jobs, parents distancing themselves from racist attitudes. Many alt-right marchers might think twice about giving Nazi salutes and shouting hate-speech slogans by torchlight if their faces and identities and Facebook accounts are all over Twitter as domestic terrorists and baby-faced thugs in the cold light of morning.
And as a long-term goal, people might lobby to get the right to protest in defence of hate speech legally revoked or redefined. Laws aren't cast in stone.
--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
|
Posted
Lots of good advice and experience here.
Re naming and shaming, all good until you get it wrong. A good idea, but people need to be careful.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
(cross-posted with Ian)
MaryLouise--
Great ideas. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) But shaming the white supremacist posters in social media has a down side: some people were misidentified. Similar thing happened after the Boston Marathon bombing. Some New Yorker was mistakenly identified as one of the terrorist brothers, and IIRC things got pretty tense.
There's a new TV drama starting in the fall, called "Wisdom Of The Crowd". Premise is using crowd-sourcing to solve crimes and apprehend the guilty. That couldn't possibly go wrong...
[ 17. August 2017, 08:07: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
|
Posted
Aargh, Ian you are right. And this is the ongoing double-edged sword of social media and the absence of fact-checking accountable bodies online.
In the same way, you have to ask who gets to define 'hate speech' I suppose, although bigotry should be evident enough in any human-rights culture to ensure it isn't 'protected' or encouraged.
--------------------
“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I heard about this strategy from 2014 to co-opt a Nazi march. The creatively subversive nature of it tickles one's fancy and reminds me of Walter Wink's creative resistance.
Great idea!
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I heard about this strategy from 2014 to co-opt a Nazi march. The creatively subversive nature of it tickles one's fancy and reminds me of Walter Wink's creative resistance.
Great idea!
Brilliant. Right up there with the Iron Ovary awards. Unrest at its best.
[ 17. August 2017, 08:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
It a tough read seeing that we're all (including me) finding reasons why we wouldn't get close to the Nazis.
I'm not judging anyone (particularly not GK whose post is immediately above this one as I write) - we all have reasons in our minds why we're not ideal candidates.
But now I'm thinking that if the Nazis come to my town I'm going down there and getting right in their faces.
Because if not me, then who is going to?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
|
Posted
Ian, I would be at the counter-protest with you, and probably for much the same reason. As far as I am concerned this isn't cowardly but a realistic evaluation of my limits. When I was younger I was involved in face-to-face confrontation, but after being on the receiving end of personal violence, where I feared for my life, I no longer have the capacity to hold myself together under such threat.
As The Southern Poverty Law Center's list, and the wonderful German initiatives show, there are other ways to demonstrate opposition.
Huia
--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
These eyewitness reports are hard for me to read as a believer in non-violence.
I need to go away and think hard about whether it is harder (or moral) to stand aside as a heavily armed mob swarm to attack unarmed priests linking arms or to pick up whatever is available to protect them, in the process losing the designation of pacifist.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
|
Posted
Mr Cheesy, I didn't see your post before I posted, but my impression is that you think face -to-face confrontation is the only/best way of dealing with this. (if I've got it wrong, I apologise), whereas I think there are more options as demonstrated by those opposing the Nazi march to Rudolph Hess' former grave and the Southern Poverty Law Center's list mentioned above.
Huia
--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Mr Cheesy, I didn't see your post before I posted, but my impression is that you think face -to-face confrontation is the only/best way of dealing with this. (if I've got it wrong, I apologise), whereas I think there are more options as demonstrated by those opposing the Nazi march to Rudolph Hess' former grave and the Southern Poverty Law Center's list mentioned above.
Huia
Huia, it pains me to say the following - I am a believer in non-violence, I consider myself a student of non-violent methods and theory and I have in the past considered myself a follower of MK Gandhi and his methods (that got increasingly hard to sustain for reasons too complex to go into now).
I think, having seen lots of video reports, photos and eyewitness accounts of what happened last weekend that the neo-Nazis were a mob which was looking to kill someone. The fact that they didn't during the march was due to two main things: there were armed militia (who didn't actually shoot anyone but perhaps made some hotheads think twice) and there were counter-protestors who were prepared to get in the way with their bodies and any improvised tools/weapons they could put their hands on.
I don't think one can simply discount the possibility that if nobody had been stood around that statue, if nobody had lined the streets whilst they walked through that university campus etc that they wouldn't have lynched someone else, torched a synagogue (apparently someone tried) or some other horrible action.
By standing in the way, I think it is at least a possibility that the counter-protestors prevented the neo-Nazis from doing something much worse.
I think there are different circumstances that require different types of response. I still believe that tactically non-violence is almost always the best response.
But I don't know that one can really put hand-on-heart and say that a counter-protest in a different part of town would have protected the innocent from a neo-Nazi mob given that the police clearly had no intention of getting involved.
At that point all non-violent methods have been exhausted and there is no alternative to stopping the blows with one's body.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But now I'm thinking that if the Nazis come to my town I'm going down there and getting right in their faces.
Why let them set the rules of the game?
If such a group has the initiative (e.g. by organising a march) the best response to my mind is one that subverts it; otherwise one is stuck in their game, their rules. Cliffdweller has offered one means of subversion; passive resistance of one kind or another is a different one. I think the Kingdom of God is all about subversion.
Also, I think it makes a big difference whether one is facing up to the authorities in place (in one form or another) or a distinct group.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Why let them set the rules of the game?
If such a group has the initiative (e.g. by organising a march) the best response to my mind is one that subverts it; otherwise one is stuck in their game, their rules. Cliffdweller has offered one means of subversion; passive resistance of one kind or another is a different one. I think the Kingdom of God is all about subversion.
I don't believe in passive anything. Non-violence is not a method of passivity conducted by people who haven't the strength to do anything else.
Why let them decide the game? Because they already have when they decided to come onto my streets with weapons. It'd have been better to decide the rules beforehand, but one has to counter tactics that are presented rather than thinking "oh it'd have been better if we'd not got to this stage in the first place".
quote:
Also, I think it makes a big difference whether one is facing up to the authorities in place (in one form or another) or a distinct group.
I think that distinction makes jack shit difference. If a mob is trying to surround someone to lynch them, then the right thing to do is to get in the way. If they start swinging weapons, then one can legitimately counter them with anything one has to hand to protect the innocent.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
|
Posted
Don't feed the trolls.
I would want to put quite a bit of effort into encouraging news outlets etc to not cover the Nazis at all but to come to the peaceful rally on the other side of town where I would be.
--------------------
If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
The UK organisation Hope not Hate is publicising that they have persuaded a Norwegian cruise liner to ban Rebel Media from from running a cruise on their ships today. That's one of the possible organisations to support in the UK.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Also, I think it makes a big difference whether one is facing up to the authorities in place (in one form or another) or a distinct group.
I think that distinction makes jack shit difference. If a mob is trying to surround someone to lynch them, then the right thing to do is to get in the way. If they start swinging weapons, then one can legitimately counter them with anything one has to hand to protect the innocent.
It seems to me that tactics are going to be different depending on whether law enforcement can be relied upon to fulfil a role of crowd control or whether law enforcement is perceived as the adversary.
[ 17. August 2017, 10:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I refer the honourable Shipmates to this, and especially this part:
quote:
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I simply refuse to be that guy.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
In Dresden, following 1989, public commemorations of its bombing in 1945 wasn't done, so Nazis came along to protest against the "Bombencaust" on the day or weekend closest to February 13th. Local anarchists started doing counter-protests in small numbers, before the day became one where anarchists and other anti-fascists from all over Germany neighbouring countries came to protest the Nazis, which also included Nazis from all over Germany. When I was there in 2011 there were 1,500 Nazis, 20,000 protesters and 10,000 police; the latter of which were those most violent.
In the end, the Nazis have scaled down their February demo, admitting defeat. Their marches were met by peaceful middle-class people demonstrating (doing things like human chains) away from the Nazi demo, as well as a strong minority of militant anti-fascists, who wouldn't necessarily do anything violent, but were prepared to entangle themselves on the en masse to block the Nazis, in the face of police pepper-spray, mace, water canons and punches.
Here in Wrocław in 2010 I attended an anti-fascist demo on November 11th which saw about about 600 of them and 600 of us, separated by a thin line of police. Then 2011 saw 200 of us, and about 8,000 of them, including Neo-Nazis as well as various football fans and patriots.
In the case of Dresden, we didn't change any Nazis' minds. What we did do was to create a strong anti-fascist narrative that eventually the middle-class majority bought into. We needed both the peaceful, candle lighting, bells ringing in churches, mayor attending, posters on opera houses mainstream, and those prepared to stand up for themselves against the Nazis and police.
We lack the latter in Poland in any decent number, and because of that, young people see the Neo-Nazi narrative to be the only narrative; they don't see an alternative. They therefore buy into it.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It seems to me that tactics are going to be different depending on whether law enforcement can be relied upon to fulfil a role of crowd control or whether law enforcement is perceived as the adversary.
So what if law enforcement are not the adversary but are not doing anything to protect the public from the neo-Nazis either?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Perfect Eutychus. I started posting on me Fire last night but it's too restrictive, one needs to batter away at a keyboard, echoing the differentiation between fascists and the authorities legally defending their rights.
The authorities in Charlottesville are spectacularly powerless, bear the sword vainly, in not being able to disarm anyone.
The next development the fascists want is a civil war skirmish. The violent left will oblige. Christian peacemaking has to interpose, hopefully ILlegally, i.e. non-violently, civilly disobediently, blocking the fascists' policed right to march and blocking the violent anarchic left from attacking them. The state has to be made to intervene on behalf of the fascists' rights, to the point of sending in troops, against Christian peacemakers. A sick, sickening parody of the 3rd Selma - Montgomery March and Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson's other magnificent bearing of the sword. Perhaps then martial law will finally be used to disarm everybody and enforce the peace, bear the sword effectively, rather than protect fascists, provoke the violent left and persecute Christians.
And somebody tear that FUCKING statue down. Ram a truck into it. Cut it down with oxy-acetylene.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It seems to me that tactics are going to be different depending on whether law enforcement can be relied upon to fulfil a role of crowd control or whether law enforcement is perceived as the adversary.
So what if law enforcement are not the adversary but are not doing anything to protect the public from the neo-Nazis either?
I don't know. All I'm trying to say is that it's yet another significant variable. These things seem to vary a lot from country to country, as Rosa Winkel's post illustrates.
I'm still having trouble getting my head around a legal armed militia in Charlottesville being more heavily armed than the local police and having enough discipline not to open fire.
[ 17. August 2017, 11:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Hence the need for martial law to disarm all others.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm still having trouble getting my head around a legal armed militia in Charlottesville being more heavily armed than the local police and having enough discipline not to open fire.
I know, right.
I think if police don't intervene to stop neo-Nazis attacking people, they are part of the problem. It can only be tacit support.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
And surely business can invoke by laws? Surely marches can be prevented by them and for reasons of public order? Or is America wasted on the nitrous oxide of freedom to above freedom from?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think if police don't intervene to stop neo-Nazis attacking people, they are part of the problem. It can only be tacit support.
And again, I think this overlooks too many levels of detail. Are the police rules of engagement to suppress violence on all sides? Contain violence on all sides? Contain violence to demonstrators as opposed to non-participants? Allow one side to attack the other but not vice versa? Is there a bad order from the top or is there a single operational bad decision counter to rules of engagement that just happens to take place in front of a smartphone? Whose smartphone? Is the incident representative of the event as a whole? Was it provoked in the knowledge that the recording device was there?
Concluding a stance is "tacit support" and nothing else is too broad a statement.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
In my opinion, people like this want attention. They crave publicity. Now, I may be wrong about that, but if I am right, those who oppose them should just let them do their thing. Allow the police to do their job of keeping the peace. Were not the wars of the 20th century fought to allow freedom? Why don't we allow them the freedom to express their opinions, even if we believe them to be hateful? Surely we expect them to allow us the same freedom?
If those who oppose leave them alone, and the media controls itself by not covering their activities, will they not fade into darkness? All the publicity of the past week is exactly what they want, and "we" are giving it to them in spades.
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
My personal experience is that bullies, ignored, never just go away. They come back, and back, for more of their sick entertainment.
My policy is: turn up; counter-protest peacefully; be prepared to defend anyone whom the Nazis intend to hurt; be ready to throw the second punch. I've done the first two, and I hope I would have the courage to follow through with the second two if necessary.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And somebody tear that FUCKING statue down. Ram a truck into it. Cut it down with oxy-acetylene.
Acetylene torches are hard to manipulate, especially on the QT. A friend of a friend has noted that there is epoxy glue. And plastic dildoes. Colored ones. I'm thinking a nice hot pink.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
If those who oppose leave them alone, and the media controls itself by not covering their activities, will they not fade into darkness?
That's what we've been doing the last 50 years. It didn't work.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
My personal experience is that bullies, ignored, never just go away. They come back, and back, for more of their sick entertainment.
They choose a more vulnerable target.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
|
Posted
Sorry - Life has abruptly gone a bit sideways. There have been some good responses to me on this thread. I will get back to RuthW, GoldenKey, et al. probably Saturday (hoping that the discussion has not by then gone in a completely direction).
Until then, be angry, be engaged, often.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
In my opinion, people like this want attention. They crave publicity. Now, I may be wrong about that, but if I am right, those who oppose them should just let them do their thing.
If they were an isolated, fringe group your suggestion might have merit. The problem is that they are larger than their presence indicates. Both directly, in the people who completely share their beliefs and indirectly, in the people who share some of their beliefs. Lack of opposition emboldens. These are not Nazi Kardashians, or fascist Hiltons. Publicity is part of their strategy, but only part.
quote:
Why don't we allow them the freedom to express their opinions, even if we believe them to be hateful? Surely we expect them to allow us the same freedom?
Counter protesting is contesting their narrative, not their right to speak.
quote:
and the media controls itself by not covering their activities,
You honestly think this is likely? The media care most about selling content and this content sells. They are not giving that up. Especially not now, when established media is struggling. They cannot afford not to cover anything like this. Even had they actual morals.
Besides, Asking the media to not cover them is infringing upon the same rights of speech you espouse.
The white house is replete with fellow travellers and at least one actual member. So, they are not going away for lack of rally coverage and protest
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
And they have cover now. From the White House. It's this that has emboldened them.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
The US is different to the UK, but when I was a student in London I attended the anti-fascist demonstration at the cenotaph when the BNP were laying their wreaths (presumably in memory of the Horst Wessel Panzer division). Both my grandfathers served in World War II and I thought the presence of Nazis at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday was an insult to their memory.
In the military cemetery where my father's cousin is buried in Michigan along with other German WW2 POWs some of whom also committed atrocities, there is a memorial service each year, and German consular officials attend. The focus is probably completely different than your BNP involvement. Though I do consider my family in Remebrance services, and object to the promotion of troops and military versus the sorrow in some of these ceremonies and services (if you read in hell, I outline my extended family's Nazi past a little).
There is a difference between a decent German ceremony mourning the German war dead and allowing a neo-Nazi party to lay a wreath at the cenotaph. The first I have absolutely no problem with.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Surely we expect them to allow us the same freedom?
You wrote what?
You expect fascists to allow people who disagree with them the freedom to oppose them? Fascists don't believe that. That's one of the core things that makes them fascists.
No. That's exactly what we don't expect them to allow us, which is why we're protesting now, while we still can, in an effort to stop them from ever coming to power.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
What Doc Tor said.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Also fascism and violence go together like horses and urinating in the woods. The idea that if nobody provokes them then they'll march quietly is quite ridiculous.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
There is a difference between a decent German ceremony mourning the German war dead and allowing a neo-Nazi party to lay a wreath at the cenotaph. The first I have absolutely no problem with.
As far as I understand, Germans don't commonly have ceremonies for the war dead and do not apparently have war memorials in every village like in England.
Which makes it a bit odd to hear of an official German delegation to a war cemetery abroad. I didn't think that happened.
Generally speaking, those who are seeking to commemorate the Axis war dead are Nazis. Which seems weird to me, but there it is.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
What I've seen going on over the last good while is like how Ennio Flaiano described Italy. "In Italy, fascists divide themselves into two categories: fascists and antifascists."
It appears events such as in Charlottesville and the like will be happening more often and draw large crowds of people that are a real drag to be around.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What I've seen going on over the last good while is like how Ennio Flaiano described Italy. "In Italy, fascists divide themselves into two categories: fascists and antifascists."
It appears events such as in Charlottesville and the like will be happening more often and draw large crowds of people that are a real drag to be around.
This is some crazy shit. One side can to a protest with machine guns, helmets and shields and talked of killing people in the street if they got in the way.
The other side was made up of a group which says it promoted and protected Muslims, Jews, LGBT+ people, atheists and others.
The one is about inclusion the other is about exclusion and hatred.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As far as I understand, Germans don't commonly have ceremonies for the war dead and do not apparently have war memorials in every village like in England.
Which makes it a bit odd to hear of an official German delegation to a war cemetery abroad. I didn't think that happened.
That may be a recent convention. Triumph of the Will features a famous scene of Hitler, flanked by Heinrich Himmler and Viktor Lutze, laying a wreath on the German memorial to the First World War (though I imagine at the time it was simply "The Great War"). Of course, such infamous imagery may be why German officials don't do that anymore. A later war cemetary visit by a German Chancellor and an American President was a more than adequate illustration of the potential pitfalls of such actions, though at least it inspired a song by the Ramones which is more than you can say for most presidents.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What I've seen going on over the last good while is like how Ennio Flaiano described Italy. "In Italy, fascists divide themselves into two categories: fascists and antifascists."
What I've seen going on over the last good while is the perniciousness of "bothsideism". I used to think it was just a lazy way of trumpeting one's own moral superiority ("both sides are always equally and symmetrically bad, and it's the morally superior option to simply denounce both"), but I've come to see it as one of the big factors driving a lot of contemporary American extremism, particularly on the right. After all, there's if there's no action you can take that's so extreme (e.g. deliberately running people down with a motorized vehicle) a significant chunk of the punditocracy and internet bloviators won't automatically and reflexively blame equally and symmetrically on your opposition, concerns about reputational damage and public image are minimized.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This is some crazy shit. One side can to a protest with machine guns, helmets and shields and talked of killing people in the street if they got in the way.
The other side was made up of a group which says it promoted and protected Muslims, Jews, LGBT+ people, atheists and others.
The one is about inclusion the other is about exclusion and hatred.
I find them both violent and hateful. They both cross the line, so I don't care who people think is worse.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
What I've seen going on over the last good while is the perniciousness of "bothsideism". I used to think it was just a lazy way of trumpeting one's own moral superiority ("both sides are always equally and symmetrically bad, and it's the morally superior option to simply denounce both"), but I've come to see it as one of the big factors driving a lot of contemporary American extremism, particularly on the right. After all, there's if there's no action you can take that's so extreme (e.g. deliberately running people down with a motorized vehicle) a significant chunk of the punditocracy and internet bloviators won't automatically and reflexively blame equally and symmetrically on your opposition, concerns about reputational damage and public image are minimized.
Well, you do have a point. There is such a thing as the nicest guy in prison.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I find them both violent and hateful. They both cross the line, so I don't care who people think is worse.
Then you're tragically misreading the situation. Such a position helps only one side, that of the fascists.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
There is such a thing as the nicest guy in prison.
They are often (but not always) the ones to watch out for.
Croesos, you may have delivered me from "both sides are badism", and false moral equivalence, but I think both sides should be held to the same levels of expectation in terms of, say, criminal justice, other things being equal.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
My personal experience is that bullies, ignored, never just go away. They come back, and back, for more of their sick entertainment.
My policy is: turn up; counter-protest peacefully; be prepared to defend anyone whom the Nazis intend to hurt; be ready to throw the second punch. I've done the first two, and I hope I would have the courage to follow through with the second two if necessary.
I resent the implication that those not ready to throw punches lack courage.
I joined protest marches when I was young and would have been much more verbally combatant than I would now and it's not that I've grown more cowardly, it's that I've become smarter and less of a show off.
We don't have to look back to Dresden for examples of how best to handle these things. We have careful studies done by groups like the Southern Poverty Law group.
A line like the line of clergy to protect others is a good thing, but throwing punches is going to result in a big photo in the news of you punching the Nazi with a caption saying "Trump was right -- there was violence on both sides."
There's a video on Youtube of the killer car plowing through the crowd and in it you can see a protestor hit the back of the car with a rolled up banner of some sort, just before it started running over humans. The Nazi's use the actions of that one man (no doubt angry that a car was speeding through the pedestrian-only area) and they're all saying "See? The left started it all! The poor driver was frightened by having his car struck and floored the gas pedal."
If we're going to be non-violent we have to be that all the way because saying, "He started it," never gets us anywhere.
We also have to allow these people freedom of speech if we want it for ourselves. Images of these armed idiots should make reasonable people rethink their stance against gun control. It could ultimately work in the left's favor, but we have to be very carful not to sabotage ourselves first.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The EDL marched through our city one Saturday so on the Sunday afternoon we did a prayer walk, led by our bishop, in the opposite direction.
When the National Front marched down Cable Street, the then parish priest, Fr. Ken Leech, followed behind them saying the Litany and sprinkling the ground with holy water.
That's a decent, honorable and wise response. Why do so few seem to understand that if you wrestle with a pig you both get muddy but the pig likes it?
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I find them both violent and hateful. They both cross the line, so I don't care who people think is worse.
And right there is the nauseating levels of moral equivalence and gaslighting which gives credibility to Nazis.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
A line like the line of clergy to protect others is a good thing, but throwing punches is going to result in a big photo in the news of you punching the Nazi with a caption saying "Trump was right -- there was violence on both sides."
That's all well and good, but the Nazis don't recognise lines of clergy. And, as I've shown above, the clergy themselves - including those who say they believe in non-violence - say that they were only protected from being killed because there were other people who were prepared to swing fists to protect them.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I find them both violent and hateful. They both cross the line, so I don't care who people think is worse.
Then you're tragically misreading the situation. Such a position helps only one side, that of the fascists.
I much prefer tragically misreading to tragically busted heads. I won't join you in condoning the violence from anyone.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
