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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, when you keep going on about Nazis with machine guns, who were you talking about? Because unless I've missed it (possible) the only people reported to be at the protests who were armed were the militia.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The Guardian - on the militia

Yingling said he abhorred violence and racism and vehemently disagreed with white supremacy but argued it was vital to defend the right to peaceful free speech.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, when you keep going on about Nazis with machine guns, who were you talking about? Because unless I've missed it (possible) the only people reported to be at the protests who were armed were the militia.

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Watch the VICE video.

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From mrcheesy:
The craziest part of a whole lot of the crazy shit that has been written here by people who clearly haven't thought very much about non-violence is that they're simultaneously claiming that their non-violence is an absolute whilst at the same time wishing for a police force that can protect life and property*.

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Action
Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics. Fascism views violent action as a necessity in politics that fascism identifies as being an "endless struggle". This emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts). (Italics mine)

The basis of fascism's support of violent action in politics is connected to social Darwinism. Fascist movements have commonly held social Darwinist views of nations, races, and societies. They say that nations and races must purge themselves of socially and biologically weak or degenerate people, while simultaneously promoting the creation of strong people, in order to survive in a world defined by perpetual national and racial conflict.

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So I am extremely dubious about antifa and the Redneck Revolt and any other radical lefty groups arming themselves to confront right-wing extremists. I think this is a regressive step. As bad as our government is, as unfair and wrong as the police can be, I think it is a big mistake to support anti-government groups on the left.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm sorry, there is nothing to discuss if you think that Nazis and fascists are not somehow entirely about violence. That's simply a fact.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Deconstruct.

It isn't violent to call the police.

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And they are part of tbe comunity in most countries, not a mercenary army.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Nobody here disagrees with him that I can see: it doesn't apply.

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How does it not apply?

Really, wtf are you talking about? Did you not see the pictures, the videos, read the eyewitness accounts?

Is there any real doubt that the Charlottesville Nazis came with weapons and the intention to kill people?

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... So no. I have low expectations of the police using their powers to protect local (predominantly poor) communities from violent fascists. What I expect them to do is take the path of least resistance - if our counter-demonstration is several orders of magnitude greater than the fash, they will move them on quickly, because they don't want any trouble.

That is another part of the reason why I turn up when I'm needed.

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Why are you asking? It . doesn't . apply. The it being your alleged attack being valid on absolute pacifism. So what? It doesn't apply here. Nobody is proposing it. And no, I see no intent by armed Nazis to kill anyone. Does anyone ELSE?

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If so, what stopped them?

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And, despite your utter Stalinist failure of form, I acknowledge the substance of your and especially Doc Tor's argument, believe it or not, including the Stalinism or should it be Trotskyism? We are the pusillanimous treacherous bourgeoisie who would rather theoretically uselessly die from our armchairs than smash fascism before it commits social Darwinism against the weak.

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You're still both wrong because there is NOTHING of Christ and His peacemaking in what you say. Or do, Doc.

Not a word.

Not a blessable word.

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I'm almost embarrassed to report that at the anti-fascism-racism-lots-of-other-bad-stuff demonstration I attended yesterday, the police used their vehicles to block the roads into the protest area; they also blocked driveways and alleys, not to box us in, but to prevent some nutjob from driving in. The handful of fascists that showed up for their demo were immediately encircled by police using their bicycles as barricades; once they started getting shirty, they were taken away. A couple were arrested for disturbing the peace. Yeah, I know that sounds insane. It probably helps when the mayor is among the protesters. So yes, show up.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re the comment about the effectiveness of talking to a Nazi over tea:

"How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes" (NPR). This has both a radio interview and an article about it.

I've heard a few interviews with this guy. He's really interesting. And part of what he does is to get Klan members to sit down for a talk with a black man--himself.

I highly recommend this.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
....but I think that's important in a way the writer misses: this guy can change.

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Originally posted by RuthW:


One of the important points that Steven Pinker makes in "The Better Angels of Our Nature" is we have in general less violence in our societies than our forebears did because we have given the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I would point out that in the United States that monopoly is under severe threat in a way it is not in other Western industrialized countries because of our gun laws. So I am extremely dubious about antifa and the Redneck Revolt and any other radical lefty groups arming themselves to confront right-wing extremists. I think this is a regressive step. As bad as our government is, as unfair and wrong as the police can be, I think it is a big mistake to support anti-government groups on the left.

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I also think it's highly problematic to look at these groups of mostly young men and talk about the baked in violence of Nazism as if it were completely different and separate from the baked in violence of young men in general. Nazism is inherently, fundamentally violent -- that's its point. And the fun of violence is part of Nazism's attraction to some young men. But the fun of violence is also part of antifa's attraction to some young men.

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Christopher Cantwell acted all big and bad in the Vice video, and then he videoed himself blubbering like a child about the police having a warrant out for his arrest. I saw video of one young man who got scared when shit started going down and ripped off the white polo shirt identifying him as a white supremacist -- he went for the fun. ( GQ article with video here. ) The writer makes the point that a black man can't strip off his color the way this guy can strip off his shirt -- but I think that's important in a way the writer misses: this guy can change.

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So I have a big problem with the whole "they're Nazis, fuck 'em" thing -- some of them are, yes. But some of them don't even really know what Nazism is about.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Some years ago in a discussion group at my church about pacifism, I asked if people were really pacifists if they were willing to call the cops, who in the US are armed. No one had an answer then, and I'm not sure I do now.

One of the important points that Steven Pinker makes in "The Better Angels of Our Nature" is we have in general less violence in our societies than our forebears did because we have given the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Deconstruct.

It isn't violent to call the police. Also called peace officers. And they are part of tbe comunity in most countries, not a mercenary army. Let's not generalize from one country.

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Statement from Acting General Superintendent Cicely Muldoon on the Patriot Prayer First Amendment Event Application

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Date: August 17, 2017
Contact: Director of Communications and External Affairs, (415) 561-4730

We have heard and take very seriously the concerns expressed by the public and elected officials regarding the proposed August 26 Patriot Prayer First Amendment event at Crissy Field. Our highest priority is to ensure public safety, while honoring our obligation to uphold one of our nation’s most cherished Constitutional rights, the First Amendment right to freedom of speech.

We are guided by the Constitution, the law, longstanding court precedent, and National Park Service policy, which tells us we must be deliberative and not preemptive in our decisions related to First Amendment gatherings. Golden Gate National Recreation Area and the U.S. Park Police are closely coordinating with other federal, state and local agencies to ensure a robust plan is in place before we issue a final permit.

We want to thank everyone for expressing their heartfelt opinions and valid concerns. Anyone interested in expressing their opinion may do so by writing us at goga_1st_amendment@nps.gov. We are reviewing all comments, but we are not able to respond to everyone due to the large volume we are receiving.

We will make a final determination on the permit within the next seven business days based on the thorough public safety review. We will make a public announcement of our decision at that time.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, I've seen that Guardian report. It still doesn't ring true though. These are the same sort of people who have openly defied the US government, in occupying Federal property for example. They are white, right wing nutters. Maybe not full-blown Nazis, but certainly on that side of the political spectrum.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, I've seen that Guardian report. It still doesn't ring true though. These are the same sort of people who have openly defied the US government, in occupying Federal property for example. They are white, right wing nutters. Maybe not full-blown Nazis, but certainly on that side of the political spectrum.

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On the left-right axis, maybe, but they're as far away from the Nazis on the authoritarian-libertarian axis as they are from you on the left-right one. Possibly further. And there are other political axes that I haven't even mentioned (collectivist-individualist? modernist-traditionalist?)

Your comment implies that only the left-right axis matters. That's not the case.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


Added to which the militia in C'ville identified themselves as defenders of free speech. Which also seems (from a distance) to align more with the political far right who enjoy the right to free speech but fear it being denied them. The militia don't seem to be doing much to stand up for the poor and marginalised who can't get their voice heard (and, what's the value in having the right to free speech if no one hears what you're saying?).

As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think I've ever heard of a militia, per se, that's centered around helping the poor and marginalized have a voice--*except* maybe if those conditions are believed to have been caused by gov't--particularly state and federal.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder how German Christians reacted in the war? I suppose a lot kept quiet, some collaborated, some resisted. I wonder if there were debates about it, perhaps they would not be allowed.

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For the third time on this thread, I give you Dietrich Boenhoffer.

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At many points during the day, groups of white supremacists approached Justice Park, but at each instance, Redneck Revolt members formed a unified skirmish line against them, and the white supremacists backed down. Most of the groups were not easily identified, but at separate points, contingents from Identity Europa and the Proud Boys were recognized. The groups that threatened the park yelled racial and homophobic slurs, and many yelled things specifically at the Redneck Revolt fire teams which indicated that they were familiar with our principles. Some of the groups that approached numbered as many as 40 people, but the security of Justice Park was never breached.

The worst moment of an entire weekend of white supremacist violence came when someone rammed their Dodge Charger into a large crowd of anti-racist protesters. A 32 year old woman was killed, and at least 19 others have been reported injured. The crash and screams were heard by the groups staged at Justice Park, and two Redneck Revolt members ran down the street and assisted in direct medical support.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder how German Christians reacted in the war? I suppose a lot kept quiet, some collaborated, some resisted. I wonder if there were debates about it, perhaps they would not be allowed.

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For the third time on this thread, I give you Dietrich Boenhoffer.

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Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

You see the pro-Trump lot broadcasting on Premier sadly.. I was very disappointed to see David Jeremiah and similar staying quiet over Trump's neoNazi credentials..

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The militia occupying federal land did, among other things, express the opinion that land management decisions should be made at local level without Federal interference (and, thus that Federal land should be turned over to local communities to manage), which isn't a million miles from those claiming States rights against Federal authority (and, many of those appear to be largely concerned with Southern States, with racist overtones).

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Added to which the militia in C'ville identified themselves as defenders of free speech. Which also seems (from a distance) to align more with the political far right who enjoy the right to free speech but fear it being denied them. The militia don't seem to be doing much to stand up for the poor and marginalised who can't get their voice heard (and, what's the value in having the right to free speech if no one hears what you're saying?).

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As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think I've ever heard of a militia, per se, that's centered around helping the poor and marginalized have a voice--*except* maybe if those conditions are believed to have been caused by gov't--particularly state and federal.

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Then it's my duty to introduce you to the Redneck Revolt. 'Putting the red back in redneck'.

They were in Charlottesville. We can probably have a long and ultimately inconclusive discussion as to whether their presence helped reduce the number of fatalities and injuries. But they were definitely there.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The militia occupying federal land did, among other things, express the opinion that land management decisions should be made at local level without Federal interference (and, thus that Federal land should be turned over to local communities to manage), which isn't a million miles from those claiming States rights against Federal authority (and, many of those appear to be largely concerned with Southern States, with racist overtones).

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The nazis aren't calling for States rights, they're calling for their ideology to be implemented by the federal government.

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As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.

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They were actively preventing the nazis from attacking counter-protesters. Who does that count as supporting?

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
They were standing around looking tough. Not very active at anything. And, given that there were a lot of examples of nazis attacking counter-protesters with chemical weapons, projectiles and even a car they don't seem to have been very effective at preventing the nazis from attacking people.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

Don't know how they're getting here. But recent news said *California* has the most hate groups of any state! And we even have the KKK here! In SF!!!

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