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Source: (consider it) Thread: Nazis are coming to town - what do you do?
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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The Guardian - on the militia

Yingling said he abhorred violence and racism and vehemently disagreed with white supremacy but argued it was vital to defend the right to peaceful free speech.

“The first amendment to the US constitution allows you to say anything you want as long as you do it in a peaceful manner,” he said. “When people start putting their hands on each other, though, that’s where our militia draws the line.”

Eyewitness account from anti-Nazi protestor on how the militia stopped a riot

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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So, when you keep going on about Nazis with machine guns, who were you talking about? Because unless I've missed it (possible) the only people reported to be at the protests who were armed were the militia.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, when you keep going on about Nazis with machine guns, who were you talking about? Because unless I've missed it (possible) the only people reported to be at the protests who were armed were the militia.

Watch the VICE video.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The Guardian - on the militia

Yingling said he abhorred violence and racism and vehemently disagreed with white supremacy but argued it was vital to defend the right to peaceful free speech.

Yes, I've seen that Guardian report. It still doesn't ring true though. These are the same sort of people who have openly defied the US government, in occupying Federal property for example. They are white, right wing nutters. Maybe not full-blown Nazis, but certainly on that side of the political spectrum.

Yes, they may have prevented some riots or greater violence. That doesn't surprise me. If I was an anti-fascist protester inclined towards violence the sight of someone kitted out like that would make me think twice about throwing stones and stick with chanting slogans.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31907 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, when you keep going on about Nazis with machine guns, who were you talking about? Because unless I've missed it (possible) the only people reported to be at the protests who were armed were the militia.

Watch the VICE video.
Presumably, this video which is top of the list from Google, since I can't see any link to that in any of your posts (I know you've referenced it before, but a search for any post you linked to it turned up blank). Where in those 22 mins do I find the heavily armed Nazis, excluding the militia?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31907 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Happening just now #MoveTrumpGetOutTheWay , Ludacris' hit song becomes a crowd chant in Atlanta USA.

People get together. Mass action. Warmed my heart on a Sunday afternoon.

[ 20. August 2017, 19:24: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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From a few pages ago …
quote:
From mrcheesy:
The craziest part of a whole lot of the crazy shit that has been written here by people who clearly haven't thought very much about non-violence is that they're simultaneously claiming that their non-violence is an absolute whilst at the same time wishing for a police force that can protect life and property*.

Some years ago in a discussion group at my church about pacifism, I asked if people were really pacifists if they were willing to call the cops, who in the US are armed. No one had an answer then, and I'm not sure I do now.

One of the important points that Steven Pinker makes in "The Better Angels of Our Nature" is we have in general less violence in our societies than our forebears did because we have given the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I would point out that in the United States that monopoly is under severe threat in a way it is not in other Western industrialized countries because of our gun laws. So I am extremely dubious about antifa and the Redneck Revolt and any other radical lefty groups arming themselves to confront right-wing extremists. I think this is a regressive step. As bad as our government is, as unfair and wrong as the police can be, I think it is a big mistake to support anti-government groups on the left.

I also think it's highly problematic to look at these groups of mostly young men and talk about the baked in violence of Nazism as if it were completely different and separate from the baked in violence of young men in general. Nazism is inherently, fundamentally violent -- that's its point. And the fun of violence is part of Nazism's attraction to some young men. But the fun of violence is also part of antifa's attraction to some young men.

Christopher Cantwell acted all big and bad in the Vice video, and then he videoed himself blubbering like a child about the police having a warrant out for his arrest. I saw video of one young man who got scared when shit started going down and ripped off the white polo shirt identifying him as a white supremacist -- he went for the fun. ( GQ article with video here. ) The writer makes the point that a black man can't strip off his color the way this guy can strip off his shirt -- but I think that's important in a way the writer misses: this guy can change.

So I have a big problem with the whole "they're Nazis, fuck 'em" thing -- some of them are, yes. But some of them don't even really know what Nazism is about.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Deconstruct.

It isn't violent to call the police. Also called peace officers. And they are part of tbe comunity in most countries, not a mercenary army. Let's not generalize from one country.

Not knowing what Nazism has to be a testament to a malfunctioning school system. They don't teach history? But ignorance still isn't an excuse for a marcher nor a president.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Barnabas62
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Well said, RuthW.

Wikipedia article on Fascism

Of course it confirms mr cheesy's comment that fascsm is at its heart violent. This excerpt from the link is particularly to the point.

quote:
Action
Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics. Fascism views violent action as a necessity in politics that fascism identifies as being an "endless struggle". This emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts). (Italics mine)

The basis of fascism's support of violent action in politics is connected to social Darwinism. Fascist movements have commonly held social Darwinist views of nations, races, and societies. They say that nations and races must purge themselves of socially and biologically weak or degenerate people, while simultaneously promoting the creation of strong people, in order to survive in a world defined by perpetual national and racial conflict.

Beware of all private militias. Whatever opinions their proponents espouse. As RuthW puts it

quote:
So I am extremely dubious about antifa and the Redneck Revolt and any other radical lefty groups arming themselves to confront right-wing extremists. I think this is a regressive step. As bad as our government is, as unfair and wrong as the police can be, I think it is a big mistake to support anti-government groups on the left.


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doc Tor
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Ruth, I have considerable sympathy for your position (especially with the gun situation in the US).

The problem - and I've encountered it in only very mild ways - is that those of us on the left (even the moderate left) often discover, sooner or later, that the police aren't always there to protect the public, or enforce the law. Sometimes they are there as an arm of government, to protect the government, their interests, and their supporters from the people. British history is dotted with these events.

Lots of people remember the Battle of Cable Street, where working class Londoners defied the Blackshirts and stopped them from marching. Few people remember that it was the police they fought that day, who were intent on ramming Moseley's march through a predominantly immigrant area.

Fast-forward seventy-odd years to my conversation with a young-looking police inspector, informing the well-stewarded, trade unionist organised anti-fascist rally that we couldn't fly the Union Jack - our own country's flag - because it might provoke the Nazis. He didn't give a shit about the BNP flying it, and using it to define the extreme Right. He didn't want the Left to reclaim it as theirs.

So no. I have low expectations of the police using their powers to protect local (predominantly poor) communities from violent fascists. What I expect them to do is take the path of least resistance - if our counter-demonstration is several orders of magnitude greater than the fash, they will move them on quickly, because they don't want any trouble.

That is another part of the reason why I turn up when I'm needed.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm sorry, there is nothing to discuss if you think that Nazis and fascists are not somehow entirely about violence. That's simply a fact.

But there is a difference between saying that Nazism is about killing - which is an indisputable fact - and that therefore Nazis are going to start killing people at any specific event.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Deconstruct.

It isn't violent to call the police.

Maybe not calling the police, but once the police arrive they will probably engage in violent acts - especially in circumstances where someone else is threatened. At the very least, arrest people and forcibly imprison them. The courts will then take that further, and imprison convicted criminals. But, maybe you don't consider enforced imprisonment to be violent.

quote:
And they are part of tbe comunity in most countries, not a mercenary army.
Yes, they are a branch of government - which in most countries is an expression of the community (government of the people, by the people, for the people). Which puts the police into a different category than other members of society who haven't been entrusted with authority
from society to investigate and arrest, and generally maintain the peace.

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Gwai
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This thread has too much violence on it too. mr. cheesy, that in large part is you. You're clearly attacking other posters more than one place here.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nobody here disagrees with him that I can see: it doesn't apply.

How does it not apply?

Really, wtf are you talking about? Did you not see the pictures, the videos, read the eyewitness accounts?

Is there any real doubt that the Charlottesville Nazis came with weapons and the intention to kill people?

Why are you asking? It . doesn't . apply. The it being your alleged attack being valid on absolute pacifism. So what? It doesn't apply here. Nobody is proposing it. And no, I see no intent by armed Nazis to kill anyone. Does anyone ELSE?

If so, what stopped them?

And, despite your utter Stalinist failure of form, I acknowledge the substance of your and especially Doc Tor's argument, believe it or not, including the Stalinism or should it be Trotskyism? We are the pusillanimous treacherous bourgeoisie who would rather theoretically uselessly die from our armchairs than smash fascism before it commits social Darwinism against the weak.

You're still both wrong because there is NOTHING of Christ and His peacemaking in what you say. Or do, Doc.

Not a word.

Not a blessable word.

[ 20. August 2017, 22:37: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
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I'll put my hands up to that. Sorry, Jesus.

And I'll just pop this here.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... So no. I have low expectations of the police using their powers to protect local (predominantly poor) communities from violent fascists. What I expect them to do is take the path of least resistance - if our counter-demonstration is several orders of magnitude greater than the fash, they will move them on quickly, because they don't want any trouble.

That is another part of the reason why I turn up when I'm needed.

I'm almost embarrassed to report that at the anti-fascism-racism-lots-of-other-bad-stuff demonstration I attended yesterday, the police used their vehicles to block the roads into the protest area; they also blocked driveways and alleys, not to box us in, but to prevent some nutjob from driving in. The handful of fascists that showed up for their demo were immediately encircled by police using their bicycles as barricades; once they started getting shirty, they were taken away. A couple were arrested for disturbing the peace. Yeah, I know that sounds insane. It probably helps when the mayor is among the protesters. So yes, show up.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Golden Key
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Re the comment about the effectiveness of talking to a Nazi over tea:

"How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes" (NPR). This has both a radio interview and an article about it.

I've heard a few interviews with this guy. He's really interesting. And part of what he does is to get Klan members to sit down for a talk with a black man--himself.

I highly recommend this.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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Addendum:

There's also a link to a transcript in the left-hand nav bar.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mr cheesy
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OK, I'm toning it down.

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why are you asking? It . doesn't . apply. The it being your alleged attack being valid on absolute pacifism. So what? It doesn't apply here. Nobody is proposing it. And no, I see no intent by armed Nazis to kill anyone. Does anyone ELSE?

The Nazis said that they intended to kill people, witnesses said that they feared for their lives.

quote:
If so, what stopped them?
Anti-Nazi protestors, the police and the militia. The police didn't do much, the militia had limited effect so eyewitnesses say that it was the anti-fascist anarchists that saved their lives.

quote:
And, despite your utter Stalinist failure of form, I acknowledge the substance of your and especially Doc Tor's argument, believe it or not, including the Stalinism or should it be Trotskyism? We are the pusillanimous treacherous bourgeoisie who would rather theoretically uselessly die from our armchairs than smash fascism before it commits social Darwinism against the weak.
I am neither a Stalinist or a Trot. I don't believe in using violence for political ends.

I do, however, believe that in a last resort it is correct to use reasonable forms of violence to protect oneself and others from Nazis intent on murder.

quote:
You're still both wrong because there is NOTHING of Christ and His peacemaking in what you say. Or do, Doc.

Not a word.

Not a blessable word.

Wrong.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
I'm almost embarrassed to report that at the anti-fascism-racism-lots-of-other-bad-stuff demonstration I attended yesterday, the police used their vehicles to block the roads into the protest area; they also blocked driveways and alleys, not to box us in, but to prevent some nutjob from driving in. The handful of fascists that showed up for their demo were immediately encircled by police using their bicycles as barricades; once they started getting shirty, they were taken away. A couple were arrested for disturbing the peace. Yeah, I know that sounds insane. It probably helps when the mayor is among the protesters. So yes, show up.

If the police always did that there wouldn't be a problem.

Given that they don't, it is hard to see what alternative there is to anti-fascist protesters turning up - and standing in the way if the police don't do anything.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re the comment about the effectiveness of talking to a Nazi over tea:

"How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes" (NPR). This has both a radio interview and an article about it.

I've heard a few interviews with this guy. He's really interesting. And part of what he does is to get Klan members to sit down for a talk with a black man--himself.

I highly recommend this.

Of course this is to be applauded, but at the same time this isn't the whole story.

There is no contradiction to say that one should be using whatever tactics there are to hand to avoid having groups of heavily armed Nazis intent on race war on the streets whilst at the same time saying that if those things fail and the police stand back then in the worst case scenario someone needs to stand in the way.

Also there is the issue I raised earlier about the cleverer parts of the alt-right using these conversations and interviews for their own ends and for recruitment.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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Doc Tor, mr cheesy.

Thank you very much. Feist still and all.

My unreserved apologies for being part of the problem, in the heat and smoke of battle.

You guys don't realise how effective you're being.

You've got me to the point of recognizing that strong defensive counter-protest may have a part to play if the authorities won't protect non-violent protestors. Muddy waters though that seems in the face of Selma and Ghandi's India where the authorities were the fascists, defeated by non-violence in India and by superior state authority at Selma.

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Love wins

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Barnabas62
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Just a note for the Hosting of this thread. I'm stopping active posting as a Shipmate in this thread; any future posts will be as a Host.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

[ 21. August 2017, 09:17: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
....but I think that's important in a way the writer misses: this guy can change.

These examples are of change in response to the threat of consequences of their actions. Not in response to winning hearts and minds, but rather in response to scaring hearts and minds.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mr cheesy
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I just want to say a few things about this post:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:


One of the important points that Steven Pinker makes in "The Better Angels of Our Nature" is we have in general less violence in our societies than our forebears did because we have given the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I would point out that in the United States that monopoly is under severe threat in a way it is not in other Western industrialized countries because of our gun laws. So I am extremely dubious about antifa and the Redneck Revolt and any other radical lefty groups arming themselves to confront right-wing extremists. I think this is a regressive step. As bad as our government is, as unfair and wrong as the police can be, I think it is a big mistake to support anti-government groups on the left.

I think it is also extremely regressive and worrying. I don't support anarchist groups per say. I've seen the things they've done in the past and I think it is usually idiotic.

To me, though, that's all a huge bucket of irrelevant given that they put their lives on the line when others didn't. They might be dangerous dipshits, but on this occasion they did the right thing.

And that's basically my view of the militias too. I don't support their crazed view of government. I don't like the fact that they think it is a sensible job in a democracy to help white neo-Nazis talk about destroying it. I don't like the fact that they had more and better arms than the regular state forces and I don't like that they frightened people.

But the hard reality is that these two groups of fruitcakes prevented the clergy protest that we all respect from getting killed.

We can either focus on the fact that these two groups are idiots or we can focus on the fact that someone stepped up and saved the clergy from being killed.

quote:
I also think it's highly problematic to look at these groups of mostly young men and talk about the baked in violence of Nazism as if it were completely different and separate from the baked in violence of young men in general. Nazism is inherently, fundamentally violent -- that's its point. And the fun of violence is part of Nazism's attraction to some young men. But the fun of violence is also part of antifa's attraction to some young men.
Well yeah but also no. The anarchists I know are certainly a group who think it is clever to fight with police and to break windows at McDonalds. But then the ones at this particular protest were loudly protesting for the rights of Black Lives Matter and for trans rights and for freedoms that the Nazis wanted to take away.

Some of them perhaps joined the group because they wanted to fight, possibly to the death, with Nazis. I don't know if that's true or not. I doubt it, personally, because anarchists are quite often straggly college kids who use dope and sit around talking about politics and the system. I highly doubt that they'd be tangling with the police if they thought there was any danger of anything worse than arrest.

In my view there is a quantitative difference between being an anarchist - even on who is convinced of the need for violence - and being a Nazi.

quote:
Christopher Cantwell acted all big and bad in the Vice video, and then he videoed himself blubbering like a child about the police having a warrant out for his arrest. I saw video of one young man who got scared when shit started going down and ripped off the white polo shirt identifying him as a white supremacist -- he went for the fun. ( GQ article with video here. ) The writer makes the point that a black man can't strip off his color the way this guy can strip off his shirt -- but I think that's important in a way the writer misses: this guy can change.
I'm sure some people went along to the neo-Nazi march for a laugh and drew back disgusted when it turned to violence. I don't know how many people that was, I don't much care about those people who exist who are attracted to the "Nazi look" pf the helmets and regalia.

And I don't much care about Cantwell's blubbering. I don't get what that has to do with anything: he had an arsenal of weapons and he said he was going to use them if threatened in ways he didn't explain.

Other neo-Nazis had a range of weapons. Everyone says that they congregated at the event because they wanted a fight - so even if it is true that they had no intention of using their weapons to kill anyone, then it is a reasonable fear that when they surge towards a line of unarmed clergy that they've been berating that they're intending to murder them. I don't see how anyone who was there at the time is supposed to be able to tell the difference between a Nazi dipshit who has an arsenal of weapons and is talking crap about using them and a Nazi dipshit who is has an arsenal of weapons who fully intends to use them.

quote:
So I have a big problem with the whole "they're Nazis, fuck 'em" thing -- some of them are, yes. But some of them don't even really know what Nazism is about.
I think Nazis are fairly upfront about the facts of what they're about and that they're interested in a race war. I don't think anyone really thinks that this is a hidden part of their philosophy.

Again, perhaps there are impressionable people who went along for the lols and because they like the Stahlhelm helmet look.

I'm less concerned about them than about those who do that, carry weapons and talk about using them.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Some years ago in a discussion group at my church about pacifism, I asked if people were really pacifists if they were willing to call the cops, who in the US are armed. No one had an answer then, and I'm not sure I do now.

One of the important points that Steven Pinker makes in "The Better Angels of Our Nature" is we have in general less violence in our societies than our forebears did because we have given the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Deconstruct.

It isn't violent to call the police. Also called peace officers. And they are part of tbe comunity in most countries, not a mercenary army. Let's not generalize from one country.

The idea that a state is an entity that exercises a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within a certain geographic area is fairly standard in political science. The way modern states do this is through their military and police/security forces, who can be thought of as "violence specialists". So yes, the police exist to use (or threaten to use) state-sanctioned violence. Citizens usually tolerate this because it's far less disruptive than the unsanctioned violence that takes place in the absence of the state.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Golden Key
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Re possible "Patriot Prayer" rally in San Francisco on 8/26/17:

I wrote to the Park Service, and asked them not to allow this. I got a form reply, saying they're flooded with responses, and I could get a statement *here* (NPS.gov),

quote:

Statement from Acting General Superintendent Cicely Muldoon on the Patriot Prayer First Amendment Event Application

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Date: August 17, 2017
Contact: Director of Communications and External Affairs, (415) 561-4730

We have heard and take very seriously the concerns expressed by the public and elected officials regarding the proposed August 26 Patriot Prayer First Amendment event at Crissy Field. Our highest priority is to ensure public safety, while honoring our obligation to uphold one of our nation’s most cherished Constitutional rights, the First Amendment right to freedom of speech.

We are guided by the Constitution, the law, longstanding court precedent, and National Park Service policy, which tells us we must be deliberative and not preemptive in our decisions related to First Amendment gatherings. Golden Gate National Recreation Area and the U.S. Park Police are closely coordinating with other federal, state and local agencies to ensure a robust plan is in place before we issue a final permit.

We want to thank everyone for expressing their heartfelt opinions and valid concerns. Anyone interested in expressing their opinion may do so by writing us at goga_1st_amendment@nps.gov. We are reviewing all comments, but we are not able to respond to everyone due to the large volume we are receiving.

We will make a final determination on the permit within the next seven business days based on the thorough public safety review. We will make a public announcement of our decision at that time.



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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, I've seen that Guardian report. It still doesn't ring true though. These are the same sort of people who have openly defied the US government, in occupying Federal property for example. They are white, right wing nutters. Maybe not full-blown Nazis, but certainly on that side of the political spectrum.

On the left-right axis, maybe, but they're as far away from the Nazis on the authoritarian-libertarian axis as they are from you on the left-right one. Possibly further. And there are other political axes that I haven't even mentioned (collectivist-individualist? modernist-traditionalist?)

Your comment implies that only the left-right axis matters. That's not the case.

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Doc Tor
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It'd be a mistake to categorise the federal land occupiers as either Nazis or white supremacists (they may be - I don't know). Their substantive complaint was grazing permits, if I recall correctly, and their stance characterised by libertarian rhetoric.

(Their particular brand of libertarianism has been helpfully defined by someone as "keeping freedom of choice in the hands of those who already have freedom of choice".)

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Get your arse to Mars

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Golden Key
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Are you talking about the people who occupied a ranger office in the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, in Oregon, a couple of years back?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mr cheesy
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I don't think it is necessarily accurate to think all militias are the same.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, I've seen that Guardian report. It still doesn't ring true though. These are the same sort of people who have openly defied the US government, in occupying Federal property for example. They are white, right wing nutters. Maybe not full-blown Nazis, but certainly on that side of the political spectrum.

On the left-right axis, maybe, but they're as far away from the Nazis on the authoritarian-libertarian axis as they are from you on the left-right one. Possibly further. And there are other political axes that I haven't even mentioned (collectivist-individualist? modernist-traditionalist?)

Your comment implies that only the left-right axis matters. That's not the case.

Yes, you're right that there are multiple axes. And, that the militia who occupied federal property had a different agenda to the the Nazis (and, potentially a different agenda and political viewpoint to the militia that turned up at C'ville).

There are, however, some similarities. The militia occupying federal land did, among other things, express the opinion that land management decisions should be made at local level without Federal interference (and, thus that Federal land should be turned over to local communities to manage), which isn't a million miles from those claiming States rights against Federal authority (and, many of those appear to be largely concerned with Southern States, with racist overtones).

Added to which the militia in C'ville identified themselves as defenders of free speech. Which also seems (from a distance) to align more with the political far right who enjoy the right to free speech but fear it being denied them. The militia don't seem to be doing much to stand up for the poor and marginalised who can't get their voice heard (and, what's the value in having the right to free speech if no one hears what you're saying?).

As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Golden Key
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Alan--

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


Added to which the militia in C'ville identified themselves as defenders of free speech. Which also seems (from a distance) to align more with the political far right who enjoy the right to free speech but fear it being denied them. The militia don't seem to be doing much to stand up for the poor and marginalised who can't get their voice heard (and, what's the value in having the right to free speech if no one hears what you're saying?).

As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.

I'd say that (some members of) the militia want power for themselves.

I may be wrong, but they may have strong libertarian leanings, so yes re supporting free speech--but IMHO mostly for themselves and people of whom they approve. I don't think I've ever heard of a militia, per se, that's centered around helping the poor and marginalized have a voice--*except* maybe if those conditions are believed to have been caused by gov't--particularly state and federal. Like taking someone's land and/or home. I don't know if the Bundys and friends (who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge a couple years ago) have militia leanings, but they sounded like they might have. BTW, 4 of them have been on trial for related actions in Nevada. Word on the news, this morning, is that "the jury refused to convict them".

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think I've ever heard of a militia, per se, that's centered around helping the poor and marginalized have a voice--*except* maybe if those conditions are believed to have been caused by gov't--particularly state and federal.

Then it's my duty to introduce you to the Redneck Revolt. 'Putting the red back in redneck'.

They were in Charlottesville. We can probably have a long and ultimately inconclusive discussion as to whether their presence helped reduce the number of fatalities and injuries. But they were definitely there.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Alex Cockell

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder how German Christians reacted in the war? I suppose a lot kept quiet, some collaborated, some resisted. I wonder if there were debates about it, perhaps they would not be allowed.

For the third time on this thread, I give you Dietrich Boenhoffer.
German Church split into two - there was a more political side who basically thought Hitler was great (think how some churches had multiple orgasms on Bush's Persian Gulf Distraction starting up - eg Franklin Graham) and the other side was the Confessing Church (Niemoller etc).

Same thing has happened around Brexit and Trump. You see the pro-Trump lot broadcasting on Premier sadly.. I was very disappointed to see David Jeremiah and similar staying quiet over Trump's neoNazi credentials..

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mr cheesy
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Ah but that doesn't ring true, Doc Tor.

When they say this

quote:
At many points during the day, groups of white supremacists approached Justice Park, but at each instance, Redneck Revolt members formed a unified skirmish line against them, and the white supremacists backed down. Most of the groups were not easily identified, but at separate points, contingents from Identity Europa and the Proud Boys were recognized. The groups that threatened the park yelled racial and homophobic slurs, and many yelled things specifically at the Redneck Revolt fire teams which indicated that they were familiar with our principles. Some of the groups that approached numbered as many as 40 people, but the security of Justice Park was never breached.

The worst moment of an entire weekend of white supremacist violence came when someone rammed their Dodge Charger into a large crowd of anti-racist protesters. A 32 year old woman was killed, and at least 19 others have been reported injured. The crash and screams were heard by the groups staged at Justice Park, and two Redneck Revolt members ran down the street and assisted in direct medical support.

it is quite obviously a lie and they're all actually Nazis.

Blah blah etc etc.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder how German Christians reacted in the war? I suppose a lot kept quiet, some collaborated, some resisted. I wonder if there were debates about it, perhaps they would not be allowed.

For the third time on this thread, I give you Dietrich Boenhoffer.
I read quetzalcoatl's questions as applying at the level of the average member in the pew - i.e wondering whether such questions played out much within congregations, as opposed to among a number of leaders/theologians.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

You see the pro-Trump lot broadcasting on Premier sadly.. I was very disappointed to see David Jeremiah and similar staying quiet over Trump's neoNazi credentials..

Jeremiah is on Trump's advisory panel - I've never seen the appeal anyway, he's just a more radio friendly version of the same dispensationalist message common on the more conservative end of evangelicalism.
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Alex Cockell

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Was only since yesterday was I aware of that...
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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The militia occupying federal land did, among other things, express the opinion that land management decisions should be made at local level without Federal interference (and, thus that Federal land should be turned over to local communities to manage), which isn't a million miles from those claiming States rights against Federal authority (and, many of those appear to be largely concerned with Southern States, with racist overtones).

The nazis aren't calling for States rights, they're calling for their ideology to be implemented by the federal government.

quote:
Added to which the militia in C'ville identified themselves as defenders of free speech. Which also seems (from a distance) to align more with the political far right who enjoy the right to free speech but fear it being denied them. The militia don't seem to be doing much to stand up for the poor and marginalised who can't get their voice heard (and, what's the value in having the right to free speech if no one hears what you're saying?).
My understanding of the whole free speech thing is that nobody should prevent you from saying what you want to say. There's nothing about free speech that requires anyone else to listen, much less to agree.

quote:
As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.
They were actively preventing the nazis from attacking counter-protesters. Who does that count as supporting?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I don't think I've ever heard of a militia, per se, that's centered around helping the poor and marginalized have a voice--*except* maybe if those conditions are believed to have been caused by gov't--particularly state and federal.

Then it's my duty to introduce you to the Redneck Revolt. 'Putting the red back in redneck'.

They were in Charlottesville. We can probably have a long and ultimately inconclusive discussion as to whether their presence helped reduce the number of fatalities and injuries. But they were definitely there.

From what I can see from various news reports, the most prominent militia, those who got their pictures all over the media in their over-the-top excessive gear were a different organisation. Redneck Revolt don't seem to have been present anywhere near the park with the statue.

Which just adds to the confusion, when there were very different organisations in different places, sharing the same sort of military structure and weapons.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The militia occupying federal land did, among other things, express the opinion that land management decisions should be made at local level without Federal interference (and, thus that Federal land should be turned over to local communities to manage), which isn't a million miles from those claiming States rights against Federal authority (and, many of those appear to be largely concerned with Southern States, with racist overtones).

The nazis aren't calling for States rights, they're calling for their ideology to be implemented by the federal government.

They want their vile ideology implemented. I'm not sure they care who implements it. If individual States gain significantly greater powers, do you think the Nazis might not be happy to have their ideology implemented at State level without the Federal government getting involved? It would almost certainly be a lot easier to get some State governments to implement their evil ideas than the whole Federal government.


quote:
quote:
As Doc Tor said, the militia seem more intent on supporting those who already hold power than those with no power.
They were actively preventing the nazis from attacking counter-protesters. Who does that count as supporting?
They were standing around looking tough. Not very active at anything. And, given that there were a lot of examples of nazis attacking counter-protesters with chemical weapons, projectiles and even a car they don't seem to have been very effective at preventing the nazis from attacking people.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Martin60
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And biological weapons - bottles of shit.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
They were standing around looking tough. Not very active at anything. And, given that there were a lot of examples of nazis attacking counter-protesters with chemical weapons, projectiles and even a car they don't seem to have been very effective at preventing the nazis from attacking people.

Or perhaps - as many people are saying who were there - injuries and deaths would have been many times worse if there had been no militia and had been no anarchists present.

Which appears to be your offering for the most desirable and most ethical option.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Golden Key
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Re possible "Patriot Prayer" rally in SF this weekend:

Well, it's been approved, along with some counter-protests (though it looks like some of *those* will be across town).

The powers that be are very mindful of safety, though, and emphasized that in the above-linked press release.

Fortunately, I have no reason to be in the affected areas, and will not go to watch.

But this is scary. [Votive]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Ian Climacus

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Are they flying into SF? I don't see it as a haven for Patriots, using their definition; but I've only visited as a tourist.

Stay safe.

[ 24. August 2017, 07:58: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Golden Key
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Ian--

Don't know how they're getting here. But recent news said *California* has the most hate groups of any state! And we even have the KKK here! In SF!!!

[Paranoid] [Projectile]

Thanks for the good wishes, though! [Smile]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Ian Climacus

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Wow. That is a shocking statistic. Wouldn't have guessed California was in the top 20!
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Golden Key
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Looks like it's going to be quite a day. Around 18 counter-protests (including dancing and dog poop)--and that's just here in SF.

"Patriot Prayer “Freedom Rally” & Counter Protests--A full list of all of the rallies & protests to this weekend’s “Freedom Rally'” at Crissy Field " (SF.Funcheap).

The Oath Keepers militia will be there. But guns won't be allowed, even with a permit. *Everyone* will be checked, and there's a list of other things that can't accompany them.

The powers that be seem to have done much more thorough planning than was done in Charlottesville.

Hope that will be enough. And maybe a rain storm?
[Two face]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Don't know how they're getting here. But recent news said *California* has the most hate groups of any state! And we even have the KKK here! In SF!!!

Is that just a numerical total of the number of hate groups, as opposed to the number of people involved in hate groups generally? Also, is that figure affected by the numbers of gangs in places like LA ?
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Golden Key
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Before I posted that, I did a quick search to verify. Just used "state with most hate groups", and confirmed that it's Calif. I didn't look further than that. I've wondered about gangs, too. Though I'm not sure that they're all necessarily about hating everyday people. Maybe more about hating enemy gangs?

If you have difficulty finding info, try the SPLC site.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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