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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Russ, you are either incredibly stupid or a Trolling Bigot (Page 7)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Russ, you are either incredibly stupid or a Trolling Bigot
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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And once again, this quotation (first posted on the closed DH thread) becomes pertinent:

quote:
"The primary sources of evil are indifference and self-deception. Both lead me to a life of convention, simply living up to the code of conduct given to me by my society... The problem comes when the society [eta: or subculture] giving me the rules happens to be Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia." (or apartheid South Africa, or Chechnya right now...)

From the essay by Neil Mussett, "Is Anyone Actually Chaotic Evil?", p. 56-7. [in Dungeons & Dragons and Philosophy, ed. C. Robichaud, published by Wiley-Blackwell, 2014 ]

I have read the rest of the book. Honest.

[ 09. May 2017, 10:55: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Russ
Old salt
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quote:
quoted by Jane R:
a life of convention, simply living up to the code of conduct given to me by my society... The problem comes when the society giving me the rules happens to be Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia.

I'd agree that there are plenty of people who are no better and no worse than the society in which they find themselves.

But from my perspective, the people seeking to identify and apply a clear framework of coherent moral principles are those striving to do better than the "moral transparency" that this quote refers to.

And the idiots asking "does he know it's 2017 ?" are the ones who are happy to take current social mores as normative.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 2823 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Not necessarily, but definitely better than the sexist, homophobic and racist mores of the past, yes.

[ 10. May 2017, 14:32: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But from my perspective, the people seeking to identify and apply a clear framework of coherent moral principles are those striving to do better than the "moral transparency" that this quote refers to.

1. That's not what this quote refers to. This quote refers to the fact that whole populations stood by while millions were murdered.

2. You're not striving to 'do better'. You're looking for excuses to 'do nothing'. And you still are with your mealy-mouthed self-justifying moral-high-ground special-snowflake excuses.

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Lost in Space

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lilBuddha
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3.And looking to continue to run everyone 'round in circles with just enough pretence of an actual POV.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leaf
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So it's true: all gall is divided into three parts.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
So it's true: all gall is divided into three parts.

link

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Seriously, Russ. We're not going to discuss whether you're racist here. That - over thirty fucking pages - is decided, and yes, you are a racist.

You've pronounced the verdict.

And gestured vaguely in the direction of some evidence.

I'm waiting for the bit where you bring the accused to an understanding of the charges against him...

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Doc Tor
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As I said, I'm not taking another 30 pages to do that. Go and seek self-enlightenment elsewhere.

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Lost in Space

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As I said, I'm not taking another 30 pages to do that. Go and seek self-enlightenment elsewhere.

"M'lud, after endless evidence of culpability, with reams of documentation and inumerable witness to back it up, I find myself at a loss of how the guilty verdict came about"

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RooK

Rocky Mountain SLAYER
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
You've pronounced the verdict.

Close, but meta-wrong. He just spoke the truth. A truth that you have proven by your words.

quote:
And gestured vaguely in the direction of some evidence.
That you are uncomfortable with the truth makes no difference at all to the truth.

quote:
I'm waiting for the bit where you bring the accused to an understanding of the charges against him...
If having people understand things were a required aspect of something being true, well, it'd be a religion.

But, really, having a mushroom sing and dance is not required to make it a fungi.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:

I'm waiting for the bit where you bring the accused to an understanding of the charges against him...

I think it was Mayor Ed Koch of New York who said "I can explain things to you, but I cannot comprehend things for you".

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As I said, I'm not taking another 30 pages to do that. Go and seek self-enlightenment elsewhere.

Getting any enlightenment from you is clearly out of the question.

Looking elsewhere, I find various definitions of "racism" such as
quote:
[1] a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race (Merriam-Webster online)
I don't believe that, and I suspect that very few intelligent people believe that these days.

Or
quote:
[2]an irrational attitude of hostility directed against a race or their supposed characteristics
I don't think I feel hostility towards other races, and don't see how my words could be interpreted as such.

I guess that what you object to is that I put forward an ethic that omits your Eleventh Commandment "thou shalt not be racist".

when what you mean by "racism" is
quote:
[3]any proposition that the speaker disagrees with that has any relationship to race


--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 2823 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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To give you a clue, seeing as you have not got one over the last 30 pages: I am using the second definition. I categorise refusing to serve people, or treat them equally, as hostile acts.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As I said, I'm not taking another 30 pages to do that. Go and seek self-enlightenment elsewhere.

Getting any enlightenment from you is clearly out of the question.
I refer you to Sioni's quote above. It's not my fault you're as thick as pig shit and as dense as neutronium.

Now fuck off.

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Lost in Space

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Getting any enlightenment from you is clearly out of the question.

But you're not really looking for enlightenment, are you? You whine that you haven't been given a proper definition of racism while you try to justify an "unconscious association" of dark skin with dirty hands. If you want to know what racism is, look in the mirror or read your own posts, asshole.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
[2]an irrational attitude of hostility directed against a race or their supposed characteristics
I don't think I feel hostility towards other races, and don't see how my words could be interpreted as such.
Shall we play this game?

Firstly, we note the subtle but crucial shift from an attitude of hostility to feeling hostility. It's a bit pointless playing the I demand you define your terms game if you're then going to miscite the definition given. You did that with Eliab's definition too. Seems to be a bit of a pattern.

'Hostility' OED: Opposition or antagonism in action, thought, or principle.
I think it's fair to say that a principle that refusing to hire someone on the basis of their race is opposition in principle or thought, and therefore an attitude of hostility based on race.
Ditto for the principle that it is morally innocent to extort such a refusal from the proprietor in question by not patronising their business.

As for whether the attitude is 'irrational' you have rather signally failed to provide any rational justification that stands up to any kind of questioning.

That said, I don't think you're essentially racist. If someone were black and had lots of money and power I'm sure you'd stick up for them if they were being sued by poor white people.

For comparison from the OED:
quote:
A belief that one’s own racial or ethnic group is superior, or that other such groups represent a threat to one's cultural identity, racial integrity, or economic well-being; (also) a belief that the members of different racial or ethnic groups possess specific characteristics, abilities, or qualities, which can be compared and evaluated.
Hence: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against people of other racial or ethnic groups (or, more widely, of other nationalities), esp. based on such beliefs.

Because the OED recognises that the world is complex, words are not to be summed up in single sentence definitions, and definitions are not exact equivalents for words but rather pointers to the meaning.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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RooK

Rocky Mountain SLAYER
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I guess that what you object to is that I put forward an ethic that omits your Eleventh Commandment "thou shalt not be racist".

Not speaking in an official function at this time:
There is no such commandment, obviously. However, one could make a very convincing case for your posting to systematically be in violation of Commandment 1.

Perhaps you tell yourself that you are amusing more than just yourself with your faux-naif displays of looking for insight as excuses to make racist rhetoric. Possibly because either 1) you think we're that stupid, or 2) you really are that stupid. Either way, the stupidity is getting old.

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quetzalcoatl
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Now 'faux-naif', I have been looking for that word in the depths of my medial temporal lobe structures, but to no avail, but the kind man has provided same.

Yes, a long running faux-naif Gish gallop trollathon, or as some say, a wank and a half.

--------------------
hell isn't punishment, it's training.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
[2]an irrational attitude of hostility directed against a race or their supposed characteristics
I don't think I feel hostility towards other races, and don't see how my words could be interpreted as such.
Shall we play this game?

Please, let us not. This is what the troll wants, this is his game.

quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
faux-naif

Thank you! I did not know this term. However, though Russ has provided a perfect example of how it works, I do not think I shall extend thanks to him.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:

Perhaps you tell yourself that you are amusing more than just yourself with your faux-naif displays of looking for insight as excuses to make racist rhetoric.

You haven't got the point yet, have you ?

I have not the slightest interest in making rhetoric which disrespects people of other races. My interest is in reasoning and moral philosophy and the way we use language and why people get things wrong.

My case is that LilBuddha, and those who think the same way, use the word "racist"/"racism" too loosely. And therefore lump together morally-right actions (hiring the employee who will be most advantageous to your employer's business) with morally-wrong actions (refusing to hire someone because of personal hostility to their race or because of pre-judgments about their capability).

I don't think I brought up the subject of racism. It arose because those who promote the "gay rights" agenda want the same abuse of language - the sort of language that prevents nuanced reasoning and pushes people to one extreme or the other - to be used for homosexuality as it is used for race.

Dead Horses is ISTM the right place for trying to make my case on a topic where people have well-established views.

Hell is not the right place for trying to make that case (despite Dafyd's willingness to play ball).

So if it's all the same to you, kind hellhost-speaking-in-personal-capacity, I'll leave you where you belong and depart for the upper realms with as much dignity as I can muster.

--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
with as much dignity as I can muster.

I didn't realise dignity came in negative units.

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Lost in Space

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Shall we play this game?

"The only winning move is not to play."
--Joshua the computer, "War Games".

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16947 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

Rocky Mountain SLAYER
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
You haven't got the point yet, have you ?

I don't give a flying fuck about what point you think you might have, Russ.

If you inflict more of your point-wishing on the too-patient Hosts of Dead Horses, you will be here again soon enough. Or worse. Get my point, asshole?

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