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Source: (consider it) Thread: Not again
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Victim-blaming and scapegoating isn't going to help. We are all simultaneously to blame and also not to blame - none of us here physically blew anyone up or gave any succor to those who did. Those kids at a pop concert were not harming anyone beyond the crazed gaze of the fanatics.

But we are also all to blame for living in a world where shit happens.

How can each of us, as individuals, avoid living in a world where shit happens?

Moo

We can't. But we can avoid throwing it at one another.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Victim-blaming and scapegoating isn't going to help. We are all simultaneously to blame and also not to blame - none of us here physically blew anyone up or gave any succor to those who did. Those kids at a pop concert were not harming anyone beyond the crazed gaze of the fanatics.

But we are also all to blame for living in a world where shit happens.

How can each of us, as individuals, avoid living in a world where shit happens?

Moo

We can't. But we can avoid throwing it at one another.
I agree.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Victim-blaming and scapegoating isn't going to help. We are all simultaneously to blame and also not to blame - none of us here physically blew anyone up or gave any succor to those who did. Those kids at a pop concert were not harming anyone beyond the crazed gaze of the fanatics.

But we are also all to blame for living in a world where shit happens.

How can each of us, as individuals, avoid living in a world where shit happens?

Moo

We can't. But we can avoid throwing it at one another.
We can also quit supporting policies which incresase the likelyhood of these events happening.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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We can also stop cutting police numbers. Oops, sorry, now I'm playing politics with Manchester.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
How can each of us, as individuals, avoid living in a world where shit happens?

Moo

We can't. But we can avoid throwing it at one another.
We can also quit supporting policies which incresase the likelyhood of these events happening.
Isn't supporting policies that increase the likelyhood of such events happening part of throwing shit at one another?

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
British newspapers said it was a US official who gave them the information.

The Guardian says US officials leaked info, as did French officials. This makes the investigation more difficult and damages our security relationship with our closest ally. Those assholes. What part of "shut the fuck up" is so hard to understand?

And Alex Jones of InfoWars infamy says it was a bunch of "liberal trendies" who got bombed. Yeah, a crowd full of girls in England is your enemy, Alex. I hope to God you lose your custody battle.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
How can each of us, as individuals, avoid living in a world where shit happens?

Moo

We can't. But we can avoid throwing it at one another.
We can also quit supporting policies which incresase the likelyhood of these events happening.
Isn't supporting policies that increase the likelyhood of such events happening part of throwing shit at one another?
I think so. But I don't think everyone sees it this way.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
British newspapers said it was a US official who gave them the information.

The Guardian says US officials leaked info, as did French officials. This makes the investigation more difficult and damages our security relationship with our closest ally. Those assholes. What part of "shut the fuck up" is so hard to understand?

And Alex Jones of InfoWars infamy says it was a bunch of "liberal trendies" who got bombed. Yeah, a crowd full of girls in England is your enemy, Alex. I hope to God you lose your custody battle.

A bunch of working class girls as well, from what I can tell from TV. Many from M/c and Liverpool, and other towns, such as Blackburn. Liberal trendies, what a tosser.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Even if the audience were "liberal trendies" it doesn't make one jot of difference. Liberal trendies don't deserve to be ripped apart by bombs any more than anyone else. Tosser indeed.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The Guardian says US officials leaked info, as did French officials. This makes the investigation more difficult and damages our security relationship with our closest ally. Those assholes. What part of "shut the fuck up" is so hard to understand?

The NYT has published photos from the crime scene. I'm not exactly sure how you do crime investigation in the USA, but we don't tend to do it in public and in the media in real time.

Just in case you were wondering. If this means that somehow it affects a future prosecution and/or the safety of this nation, this is on you.

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arse

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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That was **after** the Home Secretary had said they had asked them to make sure it didn't happen again.

What the fuck is wrong with them, have they not heard of the phrase no comment.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Paul.
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Predictably, the Police have decided to stop sharing information with the US.

I hope whoever is behind the leaks is proud of not only interfering with an ongoing investigation, but of making their own country less secure.

[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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If John Le Carré novels are anything to go by, any cessation of intelligence-sharing between the UK and the US is likely to hurt the former far more than the latter.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Callan
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Access to 'Five Eyes' intelligence material is supposed to be one of the aces up our sleeves in the coming Brexit negotiations. It's not going to be much cop if the other eyes decide that sharing with the US is just a roundabout way of getting stuff on CNN or handed to the Lubyanka.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Paul.
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True but "not hurting ourselves as bad as our (supposed) ally" is a pretty low bar.

[x-post]

[ 25. May 2017, 09:07: Message edited by: Paul. ]

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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It's a bit awkward, isn't it?

On the one hand, everyone (here, at least) appears delighted when the US intelligence community (or the Filipino one, for that matter) reveals information that can damage Trump's presidency. On the other, everyone seems to be condemning these leaks.

As I said here:
quote:
The intelligence community in particular needs to exercise the power its access and knowledge grants it in a restrained fashion.
That cuts both ways.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If John Le Carré novels are anything to go by, any cessation of intelligence-sharing between the UK and the US is likely to hurt the former far more than the latter.

IIRC John Le Carré's novels were written against the background of Burgess, Philby, Maclean and Blunt, which compromised our secret services no end. I'd like to think we are it more clued up now, and aren't using card-carrying Oxbridge Communist dons to recruit our spies.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Stetson
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Mr. Cheesy wrote:

quote:
The NYT has published photos from the crime scene. I'm not exactly sure how you do crime investigation in the USA, but we don't tend to do it in public and in the media in real time.

Well, the BBC apparently had no compunction about publishing these photos. (Scroll down for the corpse.)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If John Le Carré novels are anything to go by, any cessation of intelligence-sharing between the UK and the US is likely to hurt the former far more than the latter.

IIRC John Le Carré's novels were written against the background of Burgess, Philby, Maclean and Blunt, which compromised our secret services no end. I'd like to think we are it more clued up now, and aren't using card-carrying Oxbridge Communist dons to recruit our spies.
Perhaps not, but my point was that the intelligence-gathering capacity of the US far exceeds that of the UK.

I understand the UK reaction to this apparently rather thoughtless publication, but from where I'm sitting it encapsulates the illusion in the UK that it is on some sort of an equal footing with the US in just about everything except possibly baseball.

Le Carré's books suggest this misperception is not a new thing.

[ 25. May 2017, 09:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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I don't know of course, but my impression is that intelligence has always been a commodity that is traded rather than shared without restriction - even between close allies.

With reference to the US-UK, my guess is that the intelligence sharing has been lopsided for a long time, with far more going to the US than to the UK.

To some extent as a "smaller brother" this has been a natural cost of having the US as a protector and friend, but this becomes increasingly strained when it appears the US administration can't be trusted to shut up about fairly basic stuff.

They don't seem to give a shit about the safety of Israeli intelligence sources, they don't seem to care that they don't normally tell people about their own naval movements, they don't seem to even care about the potential impacts of telling the whole world about a British crime scene.

The point where I agree that there is hypocrisy is where the British press gleefully reprinted the photos yesterday and now are going all #crossface today about the US officials leaking them.

Once again, the press seem to think that they've got no responsibility for spreading things once they're out there in the wild.

--------------------
arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, the BBC apparently had no compunction about publishing these photos. (Scroll down for the corpse.)

The problem is not whether or not graphic images are published, but whether sensitive information about the event (such as the type of detonator, identity of the perpetrator) is disclosed over-hastily and thus short-circuits police investigations by alerting co-conspirators.

Once it's out, it's out: it's fair game for everyone. That's standard nondisclosure rules in play.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Stetson
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quote:
The problem is not whether or not graphic images are published, but whether sensitive information about the event (such as the type of detonator, identity of the perpetrator) is disclosed over-hastily and thus short-circuits police investigations by alerting co-conspirators.


Yes, I understand what the objection is.

But when the editors are making a decision about what to publish within hours or even minutes of the crime happening, do they really have the wherewithal to determine what is and isn't a hinderance to the investigation? Did the BBC know for a fact that nothing in the Turkish photos would compromise the police work?

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


Once it's out, it's out: it's fair game for everyone. That's standard nondisclosure rules in play.

This absolves newspaper editors from having to do any thinking or taking any moral decisions as to their own work. Just because everyone else is hassling victims and spreading photos of crime scenes doesn't mean that you have to.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Well it's well-known that "if it bleeds, it leads".

I think that historically there is a difference in how crime has been reported in the US and in the UK, with the UK being less immediately forthcoming/more attentive to police guidelines.

To my mind revealing the perpetrator's name early on, which US sources also did, was potentially more damaging and didn't really add anything to the story.

My personal guess is that the UK government was more upset by the photo leak because they are more sure that came from their own intelligence sources. (US sources were quoted as saying it was a suicide bomber well before anybody else was, which has made me wonder ever since this happened whether the US has not in fact had its own intel on this from the outset)

<secures tinfoil hat more firmly on head>

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:


Once it's out, it's out: it's fair game for everyone. That's standard nondisclosure rules in play.

This absolves newspaper editors from having to do any thinking or taking any moral decisions as to their own work. Just because everyone else is hassling victims and spreading photos of crime scenes doesn't mean that you have to.
We are talking about two different things here: intelligence-sharing and journalistic ethics.

I never said anything about hassling victims, but the rules on what counts as breach of confidentiality and what doesn't are clear.

The standard first exception is "any material that can be shown to have previously entered the public domain".

News organisations, especially TV news organisations, are increasingly being driven by only one thing: ratings. If they can publish without being sued (or sued for less than they will bring in in advertising revenue) they will.

The moral choice these days is more about which news organisations one chooses to consume and which photos one chooses to ogle at - or not.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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Nope, not saying you were defending hassling victims, I'm just expressing annoyance at how it happens constantly in the British media.

I'm not disagreeing with you about how it happens, I'm just annoyed that it does and nobody seems to be even trying to buck the trend.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On the one hand, everyone (here, at least) appears delighted when the US intelligence community (or the Filipino one, for that matter) reveals information that can damage Trump's presidency. On the other, everyone seems to be condemning these leaks.

I think there are problems because there are different types of leak, and probably different reasons for leaking. (here, "leak" meaning to pass information to the press or otherwise make it publically known - rather than passing secrets to the intelligence services of other nations)

There is information various people have that if leaked would lead to embarresment for politicians and other public figures, but without significant wider implications. If that info is in the hands of someone unhappy about their government then I can see why they might be tempted to leak it.

On the other hand, information about (say) the location of particular military assets could have much more significant implications. I'm not sure what someone would gain by leaking that sort of information. And, information relevant to ongoing criminal investigations and prosecutions would be included in that category.

I basically don't understand what someone gained by passing this information to the press - unless the press paid for it (in which case, IMO, it becomes even more dispicable). If someone of interest to the investigation flees the country because of premature release of information, or if the defense in a criminal prosecution can have some evidence ruled inadmissible because it's been tainted by media reporting and discussion that the jury would be aware of, then this could have serious ramifications.

And, the media are not above reproach either. Someone decided that they would publish this information, that sales and circulation were more important than the integrity of an ongoing police investigation and respect to the bereaved and injured.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Stetson
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# 9597

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Eutychus wrote:

quote:
with the UK being less immediately forthcoming/more attentive to police guidelines.

Well, I'd be curious to know how these tactics conformed to the police guidelines.

Granted, the journalists in question got called out in that instance, but still, it was pretty apparent that they were accustomed to operating in an anything-goes atmopshere, with little or no regard for what either the police or the victims would have wanted.

--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Eutychus wrote:

quote:
with the UK being less immediately forthcoming/more attentive to police guidelines.

Well, I'd be curious to know how these tactics conformed to the police guidelines.
I was thinking, admittedly, in terms of terrorism and the like. But as you say, they were called out on it.

Am I right in thinking that in the US there is no equivalent body to the UK's Press Complaints Commission? First Amendment and all that.


quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
information about (say) the location of particular military assets could have much more significant implications. I'm not sure what someone would gain by leaking that sort of information.

As regards Trump's recent blunders, the leaks are about those leaks and clearly designed to embarrass the presidency.
quote:
I basically don't understand what someone gained by passing this information to the press
My reading, Stetson notwithstanding, is more that here it is the result of a rather-too-cozy relationship between the intelligence services and the media in the US that has been nurtured by a mutual desire to bury the Trump administration.

quote:
unless the press paid for it (in which case, IMO, it becomes even more dispicable).


I suspect information is traded on a quid pro quo basis: journalists can be sources for the intelligence community as well as the other way around.

quote:
And, the media are not above reproach either. Someone decided that they would publish this information, that sales and circulation were more important than the integrity of an ongoing police investigation and respect to the bereaved and injured.
Again, I suspect mass-circulation media care little.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Stetson
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# 9597

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Eutychus wrote:

quote:
Am I right in thinking that in the US there is no equivalent body to the UK's Press Complaints Commission? First Amendment and all that.

According to what I read on wiki, the Press Complaints Commission was a vountary body and, as far as I can tell, independent of the government. So I don't think the US First Amendment would prohibit the establishment of such a group in that country.

I can't tell if the Independent Press Standards Organization, which replaced the PCC after the Murdoch scandals, is totally separate from the government. Wikipedia seems ambiguous on this.

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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Trump certainly seems to have lost no time capitalising on the condemnation of the latest "leaks" to cast those exposing him in a bad light...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:


I can't tell if the Independent Press Standards Organization, which replaced the PCC after the Murdoch scandals, is totally separate from the government. Wikipedia seems ambiguous on this.

It's a bit of a mess. The long and the short of it is that a government inquiry - Leveson - made some recommendations as to what a regulator should look like.

A voluntary regulator was set up that met the recommendations, but most of the newspapers refused to join it, and instead set up their own body - which is said not to meet the standards set by Leveson.

So there is a bit of a standoff. They're voluntary bodies, but one is more official than the other, and that's the one which most of the media hasn't joined.

[ 25. May 2017, 15:41: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Trump certainly seems to have lost no time capitalising on the condemnation of the latest "leaks" to cast those exposing him in a bad light...

I think he's gas-lighting. I suspect these leaks actually came from him, he didn't even think for a second about the effect it might have in the UK (just like he didn't think about the effects it might have to tell the Russians secrets from the Israelis and he didn't think about what he was telling the Phillipinos) and now he's just repeating the mantra that leaks are really bad and he's going to catch and punish those who do such evil leaking.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Trump certainly seems to have lost no time capitalising on the condemnation of the latest "leaks" to cast those exposing him in a bad light...

I think he's gas-lighting. I suspect these leaks actually came from him
There's absolutely zero evidence for that. The BBC claim that the leak is from police sources rather than the White House.

I think what Trump is good at is not so much manipulating information through leaks but turning anything and everything that crops up to fit his own narrative, as he has done here. This fits with what I know about con artists.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Stetson
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quote:
There's absolutely zero evidence for that. The BBC claim that the leak is from police sources rather than the White House.

I think what Trump is good at is not so much manipulating information through leaks but turning anything and everything that crops up to fit his own narrative, as he has done here. This fits with what I know about con artists.


Yeah, this strikes me very much as Trump jumping onto what he assumes is shaping up to be an anti-leak bandwagon, to suit his own purposes.

Right now, his own credibility is being damaged by leaks, so he's using the supposedly unpopular Manchester leaks to tarnish the entire concept of leaking.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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mr cheesy
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My theory is that Trump almost always parrots what he hears people talking about him, because he seems to think that attacking others takes the heat off his actions.

So he's attacking others for leaking.. because he's leaking. He attacked others for poor use of classified data because he's been told off for poor use of classified data.

Etc and so on.

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arse

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(US sources were quoted as saying it was a suicide bomber well before anybody else was, which has made me wonder ever since this happened whether the US has not in fact had its own intel on this from the outset)

This is merely a rather obvious conclusion. Which almost anyone could draw. I could predict that there will be another attack by a suicide bomber and a shooter and I will likely be right. The social, economic and political conditions and decisions-making by governments in western countries where young middle easterners have come to be educated or to live, have bred this. For a new example, rather obvious, does anyone seriously think that trump signing a $110billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia will not piss off both some young Saudis and Iranians living in our countries?

[ 25. May 2017, 18:13: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Alan--

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, the media are not above reproach either. Someone decided that they would publish this information, that sales and circulation were more important than the integrity of an ongoing police investigation and respect to the bereaved and injured.

Pretty common here in the US, I'm afraid.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Alan--

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, the media are not above reproach either. Someone decided that they would publish this information, that sales and circulation were more important than the integrity of an ongoing police investigation and respect to the bereaved and injured.

Pretty common here in the US, I'm afraid.
Yes, re: "respect for the bereaved and injured", that horse left the barn a long long time ago. As long as I've been reading newspapers(ie. since the early 1980s), I've been seeeing photos of carnage and destruction, corpses included, splayed across the pages of even the most respectable outlets.

And I can't help but notice that images of First World victims(eg. the kids in Manchester) tend to elicit more hand-wringing than equally graphic photos taken from impoverished and war-torn venues.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Brenda Clough
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We have news outlets who are not above making scurrilous stuff up about the deceased, so as to drive conspiracy theories and therefore ratings. In the latest of these, only an opinion piece in the POST written by the bereaved parents got Faux News to stop.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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quote:

quote:

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

quote:

Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God.

From last night's lectionary reading, to which I turned when I heard the news.


Not sure how much help that is - many different factions in various conflicts we're involved in seem to think that they're offering worship to God.

OK, a little time has passed, and I want to go back to this. I'm not sure it needs to be in Hell, but here we are. Mr Cheesy's rebuke to me was not at all hellish, and I don't want to be hellish in return, but:

If someone were saying today that 'those evil xxx and their evil actions this week are foretold in prophesy yyy, thus saith the Lord' - then yes, I could see such an approach a) entirely lacks balance and b) potentially mis-appropriates as being a 'word for today' something which biblical historians might well say referred specifically to some other time entirely - Nero's persecutions, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD - you know the sort of thing that enthusiastic prophesiers often overlook.

But when slaves in the US drew comfort from Psalm 137 (thank you
bible hub ) we don't look back and view their reading of the bible into their lives of the day, as an inappropriate mis-reading which disregards the specific historical events around which the psalm was actually written. This is just how we read the bible, isn't it?

In which case - "Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God" seems to speak loudly to me of something happening here, and now.

If I were the victim of violence perpetuated by a professed Christian (Martin60 posted a link recently to particularly egregious examples from 1980s Guatemala - "the Lord wants me to kill you because you might be a communist sympathiser") I am sure I would draw something similar from the text.

[ 26. May 2017, 18:46: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]

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(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Bishops Finger
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Well said, mark, and FWIW I think you're right.

IJ

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Stetson
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From Trump to Manchester, the reason to publish secrets is the same

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Does "not again" apply everywhere?
Almost 100 killed by bomb in Kabul, 450 injured.

[Geez, preview post much? Bad urls make the Baby Jesus cry. DT HH]

[ 01. June 2017, 15:43: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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mr cheesy
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I was thinking about this too. I remember the days when hundreds would die on a very regular basis in bombings in Iraq or Israel or Afghanistan. I don't think I've ever felt the impact of these as much as when something happens nearer home.

I guess it can only be inbuilt forms of racism.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

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It certainly should apply everywhere.

But, there are more factors at play when it comes to our reaction to such events than just the number of people killed and injured, or their age etc.

The big one is that the more like us the victims are the more easily we identify with them - it's much easier to think "someone I know and love could have been there". So, the Manchester bombing hits home because many of us have daughters of the same age as some of the victims (or, we have friends and family who do), maybe even with similar musical tastes. On the other hand, very few of us would know anyone even remotely likely to be anywhere in Kabul. And, like mr cheesy said, that identification with the victims may also be a form of unconscious racism.

Another factor is timing. I know I get affected much more by things on the morning news. So, waking up and putting on the TV to get a report on children killed at a concert in Manchester hits more than the same story would have had I got in from work, switched on the TV and seen it on the 10 o'clock news. That may just be me, of course. It may be that by 7am the TV news had a ton of information to give, had on the spot reporters etc, whereas if it's something that happens during the day you get fed a trickle of breaking news, and get a bit used to it before everything hits at once.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I was thinking about this too. I remember the days when hundreds would die on a very regular basis in bombings in Iraq or Israel or Afghanistan. I don't think I've ever felt the impact of these as much as when something happens nearer home.

I guess it can only be inbuilt forms of racism.

It's not racism, it's a function of how close the events are to us. Any one of us (in the UK) could have friends or family members at a concert in Manchester - or, indeed, could be there ourselves - but vanishingly few of us can say the same of Iraq, Israel or Afghanistan. It's only human nature that that makes an attack at a concert in Manchester more newsworthy than one in Iraq, Israel or Afghanistan.

Of course, there's also the sad fact that bombings in those countries aren't exactly rare, which makes them inherently less newsworthy in and of itself. News is about reporting something new (the clue is in the name), any the fact that the middle east is basically a war zone hasn't been new for a long time. It's the "Judy Takes Overdose" of global reportage.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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Well, sad to say, I know people in warzones, so I don't have the excuse that they're "out there" miles away and in situations unknown to me.

I say it is racism because we only tend to have focus on very specific issues in very specific countries. I suggest that we in the UK are most likely to feel the pain of events in the USA, Ireland, France, Australia, Scandinavia etc. Mostly English-speaking places, mostly white people.

The further one goes from that norm, the less we tend to feel the pain. So we get to the situation where hundreds of non-white people are washing up on beaches in Greece - either bedraggled or drowned - and most of us couldn't give a shit.

I think it is also something where unconsciously we think "this stuff doesn't happen to us", so warzones and bombings and running-for-your-life and a whole heap of other experiences we try to not think about because we don't tend to personally have to deal with them. Because, to a large extent, most of us don't have to live through that kind of crap.

So it is kinda expected that people in Libya or Iraq are being blown up in their hundreds, that people in Sri Lanka are dying in thousands because of flooding, that many are dying in the Med. In our heads, we put all those kinds of thing in the "oh well, isn't that sad, now pass me the doughnuts" box.

But when a single person is killed by a crazed freak - or god-help-us children are blown up by a fruitcake outside a music stadium - the fact that it has happened in our country to our fucking children suddenly brings the experience that we never thought would happen here to our doorstep.

No disrespect intended to anyone, to be honest I'm most annoyed with myself for this attitude.

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arse

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Bishops Finger
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No need to apologise - sounds perfectly reasonable to me. And true, sadly, perhaps.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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rolyn
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It is unfortunately true.
Whatsmore it always will be true because no one person, well not one born of this world, can ever take on all it's woes.
Not possible and certainly not advisable.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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