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Source: (consider it) Thread: Get me to the church on time...
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

I think you do get to things late ON PURPOSE, most of the time. .

Well, you are wrong then. That is a false opinion. People who are often late for things do not usually do it deliberately.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Ad Orientem
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# 17574

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There could be a 1001 reasons why someone is late and none of them deliberate. If someone is deliberately late then it is something between them and God and their confessor and/or spiritual advisor. Simply, it's no one elses business.
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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There could be a 1001 reasons why someone is late and none of them deliberate. If someone is deliberately late then it is something between them and God and their confessor and/or spiritual advisor. Simply, it's no one elses business.

This is nonsense. Just as it is everyone in the sanctuary's business when biddies spend the pre-worship time gossiping loudly while others are trying to prepare themselves for worship, it is others' business when folks come galumping in every Sunday in the middle of the service. If it's rude when you're at the theater, why is it OK when you are communing with the Almighty?

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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It's truly amazing that when many churches are grateful that anyone shows up, that regulating their attendance is such a big thing.

May I suggest: trying to be on time yourself, forgiving all those who are late, and always AGF (assume good faith), that there are Good Reasons for lateness, even if their reasons would not be good enough for you.


I write this as someone who wears a solar powered wristwatch that communicates with the radio time signals put out by the atomic clocks all around the world (and thus always knows the correct time and it doesn't matter what your watch says because mine is right).

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Traveller
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# 1943

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The thing that really irritates me is the "fashionably late" bit for the arrival of the bride at a wedding.

Debrett's apparently (according to a BBC article today, can't find the advice on their on-line advice bit) says it is OK for the bride to be fashionably late. This means arrive at the church five minutes before the start time, but spend all the time the photographer needs before the service starts.

Hello! I am a paid hand too, singing in the choir. Not paid as much as the photographer and not nearly as much as I think I am worth, but I was here and ready at the time you announced was the time of the wedding. Five minutes (provided I know you have arrived) is just about OK; ten minutes late and no sign of the bride will do bad things to my blood pressure. Your guests will also hear the organist improvising on "Why are we waiting?", if they bother to listen.

I have never turned around and gone home, but I have been tempted once or twice. [Devil]

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I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live:
I will praise my God while I have my being.
Psalm 104 v.33

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Caissa
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My sister was half an hour late for her wedding because the best man forgot the rings and had to retrieve them. My octogenarian grandfather in the mid-stages of Alzheimer kept looking at his watch every 30 seconds wondering where they were. I guess when you are that age time is precious.
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
May I suggest: trying to be on time yourself, forgiving all those who are late, and always AGF (assume good faith), that there are Good Reasons for lateness, even if their reasons would not be good enough for you.

Oh, come on. How can one work up a good self-righteous tantrum if one assumes good faith?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Traveller:
The thing that really irritates me is the "fashionably late" bit for the arrival of the bride at a wedding.

Debrett's apparently (according to a BBC article today, can't find the advice on their on-line advice bit) says it is OK for the bride to be fashionably late. This means arrive at the church five minutes before the start time, but spend all the time the photographer needs before the service starts.

Hello! I am a paid hand too, singing in the choir. Not paid as much as the photographer and not nearly as much as I think I am worth, but I was here and ready at the time you announced was the time of the wedding. Five minutes (provided I know you have arrived) is just about OK; ten minutes late and no sign of the bride will do bad things to my blood pressure. Your guests will also hear the organist improvising on "Why are we waiting?", if they bother to listen.

I have never turned around and gone home, but I have been tempted once or twice. [Devil]

Oh help that reminds me of a near miss ... I agreed to do a wedding at 5 pm (bearing in mind the "legal bit" must be done by 6 pm). Bride aware of this promises to be on time. Actually arrives at church at 5.30 and spends a lot of time being photoed .... result the fastest reordered service in the world and a very very near miss on legality.

Some things do really need punctuality.

Where does this fashionably late stuff come from then? I can understand why you aren't supposed to be too early (say > 10 mins) but how did the late thing come in? Really curious actually.

[ 06. March 2013, 19:57: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
This ought to be an easy one really. The Gospels make it clear that God gives the same to those who turn up late in their lives as to those who've been there since clocking on time. It also seems pretty clear that the line "But that's not fair - I made the effort to get here on time, so I should get more pay" falls on deaf ears.

If God can not only tolerate someone turning up several decades late, but bless them equally as those who are "on-time" he can also not only tolerate, but bless equally, those who are minutes late for Mass.

That we can't do the same is because we're not as good at love as He is.

I wouldn't have said the parable means what you claim. As a Kingdom parable it's aimed at telling the Pharisees that the latecomers to the Kingdom (ie the Gentiles) will receive the same reward as the Jews. Nothing to do really with time and motion and rates of pay: Jesus uses this as an everyday example of what they already know to drive home his argument about what he wants them to understand.
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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gosh! I always thought Anglican churches were sticklers for punctuality! Does your church have lots of ethnic minority attenders?? The Black Majority Churches are known to have a relaxed attitude towards time.

When I played the organ for a synagogue, people would joke that the service began at 7:00 p.m. "Jewish time" (meaning never earlier, sometimes on the dot, often a few minutes later).

Then there's Christ Church, Oxford as I recall, which persists (certainly used to persist) on setting its clocks a few minutes later than everyone else. Perhaps it is on a principle that of course the college has the world's best astronomers? Someone please correct me if my memory is faulty.

There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Lucia

Looking for light
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Then there's Christ Church, Oxford as I recall, which persists (certainly used to persist) on setting its clocks a few minutes later than everyone else. Perhaps it is on a principle that of course the college has the world's best astronomers? Someone please correct me if my memory is faulty.

[/QB]

I recall that the difference in time was supposedly due to the difference in longitude of Oxford compared to the Greenwich meridian, ie the clock struck 'Oxford time'.


This seems to confirm what I remembered.

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Mama Thomas
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# 10170

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Someone said earlier about other features of modern life starting late. Planes usually start a few minutes late. Every film I've ever been to starts late and lately they've been starting later. 7:20 show time? There will be UP TO half hour of advertising. 15 minutes one time, 30 the next 20 the time after. They do that so you get the privilege of paying to watch commercials. Grrr.

I have no idea why most people make a point to get to a doctor's office 15, 20 minutes before the appointed time which as everyone knows is at least a half hour before you're ushered into a cold room where you wait. And wait. And wait.

Yes, there are people who are always late to church and every year people will come late because they forgot about the time change which is beyond me because it screamed without ceasing for a month before the change and so many devices change automatically anyway.

But as a courtesy to those who did arrive a few minutes early for the vanishing custom of moment of quiet time before the altar, services should being on time--if possible.

I knew a church whose sign said Sunday Service 10:53 am so it would be sure to begin exactly at 11:00. It was cute but the next minister changed it.

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All hearts are open, all desires known

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I have no idea why most people make a point to get to a doctor's office 15, 20 minutes before the appointed time which as everyone knows is at least a half hour before you're ushered into a cold room where you wait. And wait. And wait.

Not always true. My doctor is usually on time and sometimes runs a few minutes early. I arrived 5 minutes early for an appointment today, checked in, and was seen virtually at once.

Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's truly amazing that when many churches are grateful that anyone shows up, that regulating their attendance is such a big thing.

May I suggest: trying to be on time yourself, forgiving all those who are late, and always AGF (assume good faith), that there are Good Reasons for lateness, even if their reasons would not be good enough for you.



While you're lecturing the rest of us for not being up to your standards of Christian love you might want to give us a little bit of that assumption of good faith.

I doubt if those of us who were brought up to be on time for church are now setting in the pews thinking bad thoughts about the late comers, feeling morally superior to them or failing to give grateful thanks for their fellowship. My favorite family in church, the ones I most look forward to seeing, are late almost every Sunday. I truly love them.

But the OP asks us how we feel about being on time for church. I foolishly took that question at its face value and answered it honestly, the same way I might answer honestly about a hypothetical new custom of wearing swimsuits to church. If I said I found it inappropriate and distracting, it wouldn't mean I would prefer those people stay home or that I felt morally superior to them. It would just be my honest answer to the question as a point of form. When I called Karl's lateness rude, I didn't mean it as an insult but to say that, that was all I thought it was. Just a small breach of good manners like accidentally burping, not a big deal. To me being called rude doesn't have a patch on being called a self-righteous, Pharisee but I guess not to everyone.

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers.

FWIW, our doors bang around because large heavy 150 year old wooden doors and hinges tend to do that, on ancient uneven flagging, no matter how discreet someone tries to be. Additionally in the small churches the entrance is always partway down the nave, coming right into the centre of the building; so at least everyone seated around the crossing will see you 'sneaking' in. Even those with their eyes shut! So making noise in this way is not an act of defiance or rudeness. It's just the only way to get into the building. As for waiting for a hymn - you could wait a long time in one of our churches, as singing tends to be sparingly used in the services!

Better to just put your shoulder to the wood and get it over with!

Twilight, I really doubt that anyone sets out to be deliberately late. Some folks may be late through carelessness of time, and clearly as St Deird and Karl etc have shared, some struggle with time issues from, I suppose, medical reasons (is that accurate to say that?). It may be understandable for the on-timers to be annoyed at the obviously careless, but it's not right to assume everyone is being selfish.

Karl, I had to smile at your envy of those of us who are 'organized and together' enough to be on time. I can't speak for anyone else, but that can come at a price, too! I'd be ashamed for my congos to see the frantic chaos of my Sunday morning preparation. And the soundtrack isn't terribly sacred either! [Big Grin]

And you can come and clang the doors late at our churches any time!

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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I never said that anyone deliberately set out to be late. Karl said, in all caps, that he was not late ON PURPOSE and I was pointing out that except in cases of a very random accident happening or someone holding a gun to his head, he was at least in some part making decisions and choices on purpose, that effected how late he might be. I used examples which should have made that clear. There is a difference between purposely making the decision to have another cup of tea and "deliberately setting out to be late."

As pointed out those of us who are on time are not in every case well organized. I have had attention problems myself all my life, every report card I ever took home said, "daydreams in class." My college roommate loved to tell people stories about coming back from class and finding me standing in the same spot, staring at the same thing, two hours later. Yes. I don't get ten things started at once, I just come to a complete stop while my mind wanders. So I have to set alarms all day long to remind me of things like when to put something in the oven or when to start getting ready to meet someone. Buzzers went off for me three times today. If I am on time it's on purpose and a result of purposeful effort.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I doubt if those of us who were brought up to be on time for church are now setting in the pews thinking bad thoughts about the late comers, feeling morally superior to them or failing to give grateful thanks for their fellowship.

You wouldn't know that from this thread.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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bib
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It seems to be the same people who are always late and I consider their behaviour bad manners.
One of them in particular is first to complain at being kept waiting in the tea/coffee queue. I've always believed in the rule that if you're not early you are late.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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roybart
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This has turned out to be a rather touchy topic, revealing a variety of human frailties.

I tend to agree with Twilight's position, so I was suprized to read the following statement addressed to her.

quote:
... I really doubt that anyone sets out to be deliberately late.
The issue really isn't one of the late person's motive so much as one of how other people and events are affected.

If lateness inconveniences no one and disrupts nothing of importance, who cares? Indeed, no one posting on this thread has suggested that "punctuality" is good for its own sake.

I'm one who tends to be on time to things, and one who values time for self-preparation at the start of worship. I am not the least troubled when latecomers take their seats without requiring others to make way for them and when they do this more or less quietly.

Of course, accomodations have to be made for those with physical handicaps. I'd also like to thank several posters for making me aware of just how difficult it can be for many people to be on time.

[ 07. March 2013, 03:20: Message edited by: roybart ]

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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Huia
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# 3473

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In the years that I have been attending my current church I have never been late, though with the bus service compromised by the quakes it's sometimes been a close run thing.

I would bet real money though that there are other things I do that annoy other people - I don't know what they are because most people are sufficiently charitable not to give me a list of what they see as my shortcomings.

At my childhood church the Vicar was amused by what he called "the St John's rush" where people who wanted to pray quietly or prepare themselves would go into the church, and those who wanted to chat would stay in the porch until a minute before the service when they would all rush in.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

I'd have thought that has more to do with the Sunday School teachers wanting to participate.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

I tend to agree with Twilight's position, so I was suprized to read the following statement addressed to her.

quote:
... I really doubt that anyone sets out to be deliberately late.
The issue really isn't one of the late person's motive so much as one of how other people and events are affected.


Really? [Confused] Twilight tells a poster that he is almost always late 'on purpose'. Can you think of many things you do 'on purpose' that couldn't be described as being done 'deliberately'? Let's try that out. 'I kicked Bishop Brennan up the arse on purpose, but I didn't [/I]deliberately[/I] kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.'

She tries to qualify this later, by talking about cups of tea etc. But the 'on purpose' reference was to being late. Not extending breakfast. If Karl wasn't being 'deliberately' late, then neither was he being late 'on purpose'. You can't have it both ways.

Obviously, her point - and it's a valid argument in context so why be coy about it - is, if you choose to put off leaving for church by some displacement activity, you're choosing to be late for church. In other words, you're deliberately choosing to be late. Either way, that's her argument. So my response to her that I doubt many people do choose to be deliberately late is completely unsurprising.

As you'll have seen, my own posts show clearly I believe in Twilight's right to be miffed at lateness. And I've equally made the point that the consequences on others of lateness are inevitable and sometimes negative, regardless of what's behind the lateness. (Which is why I think choosing not to get annoyed over it is the better option.)

But getting squirrely over being called on one's own plain statements is a waste of time.

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Jane R
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# 331

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bib:
quote:
I've always believed in the rule that if you're not early you are late.
Actually I can think of many examples of situations where being early might be considered bad manners too. I find it disconcerting if friends turn up for a dinner party while I am still hiding all the clutter and vacuuming the living room carpet... I'd rather they were a few minutes late, because I never cook anything that will spoil if it's not eaten on the dot.

If you are exactly on time you are certainly not late, though most of us are not organised enough to manage this (even with an atomic wristwatch).

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Mockingale
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# 16599

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
One thing puzzles me: why are people late for church at 10.30 am on sunday when they manage to get to work and their children by school by 9 the rest of the week? Lie in? Well, you've got Saturday haven't you?

If it says 10.30 then in markland we start at 10.30 - no if's or but's. I'm at church from 9.30 to get ready, be quiet, make myself a cup of tea.

We do have people wandering in up to 15 mins late and some have to leave early if they're on an afternoon shift at the hospital. So what?

I do struggle with people being habitually late for things (not occasionals or one offs). I suppose there's only 2 main reasons - disorganisation or a desire to be seen to arrive. Neither of these are attractive traits.

Lateness can be disruptive esp as some want you to go back over what you've done when they weren't there.

I suppose that the consensus is that the Lord forgives, but our bosses don't?
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

She tries to qualify this later, by talking about cups of tea etc. But the 'on purpose' reference was to being late. Not extending breakfast. If Karl wasn't being 'deliberately' late, then neither was he being late 'on purpose'. You can't have it both ways.


But getting squirrely over being called on one's own plain statements is a waste of time.

I didn't just "try to qualify it later," I qualified it in my first post on the subject, with the same cup of tea analogy, to make sure people understood that I was talking about the choices often being on purpose not the plain fact of lateness. I only used the specific words "on purpose," because those were the same words Karl had used in his all caps shout about how he was never late on purpose. He made it sound like he was a helpless victim of circumstances over which he had zero control.

"Squirrelly" huh? I'll add that to self-righteous, Pharisee and morally superior in my list of things you are allowed to call other people here. Not "rude," though. Never say rude.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.
I've heard that running late is fine, to be expected given the congestion these days, but running early is a serious no-no.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
"Squirrelly" huh? I'll add that to self-righteous, Pharisee and morally superior in my list of things you are allowed to call other people here. Not "rude," though. Never say rude.

Yeah you do that. But just remember that what I have said about your explanation was that it was 'squirrely'. If you're taking on board for yourself 'self-righteous, pharisaical and morally superior' that's your choice. Nothing to do with me or anything I've posted.

And it is squirrely because when you say someone does something 'on purpose' you are saying they are doing it 'deliberately' no matter how you try to dress it up to mean something different. If you prefer 'defensive' and 'wrong' instead of 'squirrely', I've certainly no objection!

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roybart
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# 17357

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Sorry, Anselmina, but that is not how I read the overall content and the tone of your comments. (I admit that the single sentence I quoted might have been misleading. However, I thought it wiser to pick out this one thought and not to attribute it to any poster by name.

Log after this thread goes to its heavenly reward, I will remembering two things it most of all.

A) To keep in mind that some people have serious and possibly unsurmountable problems organizing their time. I need to be more sensitive to this.

B) What it feels like to be accused of less-than-Christian behavior for expressing, as Twilight and several others have done, what we think about this topic and how some (not all) lateness situations impact the lives of others.

[ 07. March 2013, 12:48: Message edited by: roybart ]

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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roybart
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Apologies for the typos above. Also for engaging in "discussing the discussion."

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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Jane R
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quote:
I've heard that running late is fine, to be expected given the congestion these days, but running early is a serious no-no.
If you travel by public transport you will understand why buses and trains (and aeroplanes, ferries etc) never run early; because those of us who do use public transport spend quite a lot of time waiting for it to turn up, and in some cases this means getting to the bus stop (or wherever) five or ten minutes before the next one is due. If the bus company abandons the pretence of a timetable and has the bus arriving several minutes in advance of the advertised time we might just as well give up and buy a car, because otherwise we'll have to spend most of the rest of our lives waiting for the bus to turn up.

Running late is sometimes unavoidable and the bus company has very little control over most of the causes of delay (heavy traffic, roadworks, weather, mad hedgehogs, the Apocalypse...); but if the bus is running ahead of schedule the driver can just wait a little longer at one of the stops.

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

Obviously, her point - and it's a valid argument in context so why be coy about it - is, if you choose to put off leaving for church by some displacement activity, you're choosing to be late for church. In other words, you're deliberately choosing to be late. Either way, that's her argument. So my response to her that I doubt many people do choose to be deliberately late is completely unsurprising.


It's a bit like arguing that if someone chooses to over-eat and chooses not to exercise, they are deliberately choosing to be overweight/unhealthy. Many people see that as a valid argument. But most medical professionals, indeed, most overweight/unhealthy people would say that it's a bit more complicated than that.

So I agree with Anslemina that nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately late just as nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately overweight/unhealthy.

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.
For an Ottawa resident who uses public transport a lot, this sounds like a provision from the Dungeons and Dragons rulebook more than real life.

When the pirate régime which formerly occupied S Vartan's shifted the morning service from 8.30 to 8.00, I had a choice between a bus leaving at 7.05 or 7.45-- the 7.05 provided me with a half-hour wait outside the church (try this at -28°C and no open coffee joint within four blocks) and the 7.45 meant that I would always be 5-10 minutes late. It ended up that I found it more convenient to walk the 4km, which took me just under an hour and got me there in time.

Public transit on Sunday mornings is not a priority issue in most cities and, should you be in a rural area, you may as well forget about it. The carless must arrange rides or live within walking distance.

An unkind friend feels that one of the reasons for my orientalphilia is that one can just cruise into the services when one arrives, and it doesn't raise an eyebrow.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
bib:
quote:
I've always believed in the rule that if you're not early you are late.
Actually I can think of many examples of situations where being early might be considered bad manners too. I find it disconcerting if friends turn up for a dinner party while I am still hiding all the clutter and vacuuming the living room carpet... I'd rather they were a few minutes late....
I have a friend like that, always early, when I hosted a weekly event at my house she was always 15 minutes early, I'm still preparing! Then she came half an hour early, then an hour early, wanting to be given a cuppa and chat. Her explanation - she can't be sure of traffic and it's unpardonably rude to be late.

But when I had to leave the house after the meeting to go to an event she didn't want to attend, although I gave lots of advance reminders what time I had to leave, she'd refuse to leave on time, saying she wasn't ready yet - and remain seated, not even trying to "get ready". Obviously being on time was NOT something she valued as a consideration for others or she would have cooperated with my wanting to be on time to my event.

I no longer believe being early or on time says anything about as person's concern for others.

So I started going to church again - a thread in eccles similar to this one had convinced me arriving 5 minutes late and entering quietly during a hymn was painfully disruptive, late comers should stay home; so, startled, I did; I'd had no idea arriving late quiet was so strongly resented as that thread expressed! No one had ever hinted that it was a problem!

But after my friend's demonstration that being early is an internal drive not a virtue, not a consideration for others, just an internal drive for personal benefit, I know to ignore the claims. Sometimes I'm on time, sometimes I'm late and a bit embarrassed, sometimes I'm going to be so late there's no point in going so I wait for the coffee and go to just that.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
As you very well know, Twilight, calling people rude is personal. Desist or take it to hell.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
"Squirrelly" huh? I'll add that to self-righteous, Pharisee and morally superior in my list of things you are allowed to call other people here. Not "rude," though. Never say rude.

Host Hat On

Twilight

A reminder that if you want to criticise Hostly rulings, for action or inaction or partiality, take it to the Styx. Protests in the thread, whether directly or obliquely worded, can attract Admin attention and action for Commandment 6 violations.

Everyone else

This thread is generating more heat than light. Remember that Hell is the place for airing personal and personality clashes.

You can always query this ruling in the Styx as well. But kindly do your bit to lower the temperature to normal Purgatorial standards here i.e. criticise posts, don't attack people, avoid ongoing slanging matches.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Host Hat Off


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I qualified it in my first post on the subject, with the same cup of tea analogy, to make sure people understood that I was talking about the choices often being on purpose not the plain fact of lateness.

When I'm late to church (which isn't always but sometimes) it's not because I decided to have a second cup of tea. It's because the shirt I had planned to wear has a stain that shows badly in daylight but I hadn't noticed in the daker closet light and I have to change clothes (to what?), I can't find my other shoe, so I am running to church late with no breakfast and no *first* cup of tea, painfully hungry but it's be hungry or stay home to eat something and miss church.

I really resent the claim that people who are frantically trying but non-functioning in mornings are calming sitting around deciding to ignore the clock and have a second cup of tea instead of picking up the car keys. (Where are the keys, anyway? I have a hook for them right next to the door but last night I came home tired and distracted and forgot to hook them.)

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Me too. Here's a perfectly ordinary afternoon for me as a data point.

All I have to do is cycle to the station, get the train home, then cycle back from the home station in time to take Backslideret #1 to cubs for 6.30pm.

The cycle ride to the station takes about 25 minutes including faffing about at each end, the train is at 17:44; it arrives at the home station at 18:00 giving me lots of time for the 15 minute ride back home.

I therefore need to leave work by 17:20. That'd be cutting it hopelessly fine, so I plan to leave at 17:10. At 17:00 I think - right, 10 minutes to go, keep eye on clock. Someone comes and talks to me, I get on with what I'm doing, next thing I know it's already 17:10, so I shut down my server consoles; one of them takes a bit of time to go down, escape at 17:15. It's 17:20 by the time I escape the people who just need to tell me something quick as I leave.

Get to platform as train is leaving. Now, cunning plan included fact that the next train at 16:54 is a fast one, so if I get that I actually only lose 5 minutes and I still have plenty of time. Train comes. It gets delayed. I get to home station with 10 minutes to get home, which I do, and the boy is only 5 minutes late to cubs.

But there's more. As I leave the house with the Boy, Mrs Backslider hands me a couple of pieces of paper that need handing in. I get him to cubs, get back, and am asked if I handed in the pieces of paper. I hadn't. They're on the passenger seat of the car. In the two minutes it takes to get to the scout hut I've completely forgotten about them.

Then she reminds me that I'm doing my climbing assessment for unaccompanied use of the climbing wall. I booked it for that day, but I'd completely forgotten about it, so out I go again, handing in the pieces of paper at the scout hut as I go.

Do I think I'm a victim of circumstances over which I have no control? No, but I do know that I'm a victim of my own inability to entirely control them. Yes, lots of places you could say "why didn't you?", but the point is that at the time all my decisions seemed sensible and the right thing to do. Yes, there are things I could do, reminders I could set, if I think of it at the time and remember to do them.

I'm well aware it's an area of incompetence, but nowhere in there is there having an extra cup of tea or any shite like that.

The above is normal life for me. On the occasions I arrive late at church it's very unikely I've had an extra cup of tea - it's more likely I haven't had a cup of tea at all because I've spent half an hour looking for one child's right shoe, another child's left glove and had to run back home from half way there to pick up that form about the harvest supper that needs to be in today and about which I completely forgot until I saw the church steeple in the distance and it reminded me.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.
I remember when, about 10 years ago, the accusations of the buses running early in the area I was living at the time finally stopped. What happened is that the route was replaced with two routes which ran different courses over the last 3 kilometres and alternated. It seemed that the buses were still routinely 10-15 minutes late during the peak and 25-30 minutes late in the interpeak and on contra-peak flows, but with different route numbers we could finally tell the difference between the previous bus being late and the one we wanted being early.

These days, the State Government supervises the contractors using GPS trackers and fines them for every service not delivered properly. All three of the contractors will now action early departures from timed stops by having the driver relieved at the end of that run and the remainder of their shift cancelled.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

I'd have thought that has more to do with the Sunday School teachers wanting to participate.
And hopefully there had been some kind of biblical input during the Sunday School program that the kids heard, parallel to the one the adults heard.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?
[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

Only if there's an appropriate downloadable colouring in sheet on the topic.

/entirely cynical about Sunday Schools.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Someone comes and talks to me... I shut down my server consoles; one of them takes a bit of time to go down...Get to platform as train is leaving... Train comes. It gets delayed... In the two minutes it takes to get to the scout hut I've completely forgotten about [the papers]...

Yes, lots of places you could say "why didn't you?", but the point is that at the time all my decisions seemed sensible and the right thing to do. Yes, there are things I could do, reminders I could set, if I think of it at the time and remember to do them.

I'm well aware it's an area of incompetence, but nowhere in there is there having an extra cup of tea...

The above is normal life for me.

We need a thread on coping mechanisms. Like, when I buy eyeglasses I buy 2 pair, and keep all the old ones, so when I lose my glasses (there are 2 in unknown places in this house right now) I can find another pair to wear - even if a prior prescription. And I keep one in the car as my emergency backup, to be used only to help search for lost glasses in the house.

Life is much easier with multiple glasses! Partly because I read without them so I'am putting them down lots of places, when reading or writing or computering or eating etc. Lots of tables and fell-under-chairs to search.

Of course multiple glasses means buying the cheap ones instead of stylish frames, but eliminating one of the frantic problems (where are my glasses?) is worth not looking quite as sharp.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:



So I started going to church again - a thread in eccles similar to this one had convinced me arriving 5 minutes late and entering quietly during a hymn was painfully disruptive, late comers should stay home; so, startled, I did; I'd had no idea arriving late quiet was so strongly resented as that thread expressed! No one had ever hinted that it was a problem!


I agree with you that being early to people's homes is as bad as being late. (Being early for church, work, or dentist appointments doesn't usually cause much problems though.)But that's just another example of why, to some of us, setting times andtrying to stick to them, makes life easier for all concerned.

I'm sorry that the thread in Eccles made you feel that arriving late was strongly resented. As I've said up thread, even though I'm one who thinks it's best to try to be on time for church, the people who come late are not resented by me at all. I don't know anyone who feels that way. It's one thing to think "Practice X" is a good rule and I try to abide by it, and quite another to dislike or look down on other people who differ about it.

The people in the local Methodist, my husband's church, come and go through out the service. The pastor himself usually starts about five minutes late. They bring food and drink with them and snack through out the service, the children bring toys and play with them rather loudly, passing of the peace is like a small party with everyone moving around the church for about 20 minutes. Most people wear jeans in winter and shorts and flip-flops in summer. The whole thing lasts almost two hours with lots of music and drums and tambourines. It's the fastest growing church in the conference. I think it's probably the wave of the future and those of us who have always looked forward to church as a quiet hour away from chaos will probably be out of luck soon.

So cheer up. This thread has made me feel like avoiding church like the Eccles thread did for you. Now I'll be thinking all the late people are hating on the ones who are sitting in pews and thinking we're rigid control freaks to be sitting there on our fat rearends.

My Lutheran pastor as well as the Methodist one has already, always made us feel that we are of no value to the church because we don't have little children to bring up in the church. We are clearly not the future.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
]We need a thread on coping mechanisms.

Good idea.

I used to have endless, endless losing keys problems. Now I have a little clip on my keys and they are clipped to the loop on my jeans/tousers ALL the time unless I'm in bed or bath. Key troubles OVER!


[Yipee]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
So I agree with Anslemina that nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately late just as nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately overweight/unhealthy.

I think the comparison between being late for church and being unhealthy is a bit of overkill. All we are talking about is people turning up at different times. Its no big deal. If it is a bad thing at all (*) its only a little bad thing. Something that some people moan about but most people hardly notice. More at the wearing-socks-with sandals category than the dangerous-driving category. The odd thing about this thread is the way two or three posters have gone OTT in condemning latecomers as if it was some terrible moral failing, or a personal insult to them. Its not. Neither is it a disease.

(And I'm afraid I can't see the difference between "on purpose" and "deliberately" either)

(*) and to be honest I don't really think it isa bad thing, Its rather nice really. It makes life less stressfull and more pleasant. The very fact thqt many of our congregation turn up ten or twenty minutes after the start of the service, or leave before the end of it, means that I'm not under pressure to be there at an exact time, which is good.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Anselmina
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Interesting outcomes on this thread!

Belle Ringer somteims getting the impression only the punctual are welcome at church, presumably judging the late-comers; Twilight feeling like avoiding chuch because it's the late-comers who are doing the judging! [Big Grin]

More seriously, Twilight, do you honestly believe that as each late-comer is finding their way to their seat they're spending the time and energy directing hate-thought in your and every other church-members' direction, because you're on time? Come on. Who lets a far-fetched notion like that put them off attending their church, if they really want to be there.

Belle, I'm with you on the glasses thing. I still have a pair from when I was at college - and that was at least three prescriptions ago. You never know......

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?
You have confused "learning about the Gospel" and the reading of the Gospel, the latter of which is a specific liturgical act at a specific time in the service, which marks a (perhaps arbitrary) line that churches have drawn concerning who may and may not partake. In short, you have made a category error.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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This is all a bit silly. The other day, I turned up for a weekday mass that was advertised as starting at 7.30pm (half an hour later than usual because of a Lent talk scheduled to follow).

The parish secretary had made a mistake and the mass began, as usual at 7.

I arrived (early, as i thought) during the Peace. As I had my daily missal, i read the gospel 'to myself' during the preparation of the gifts. Should I have refrained from receiving communion?

[ 07. March 2013, 18:47: Message edited by: leo ]

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:


More seriously, Twilight, do you honestly believe that as each late-comer is finding their way to their seat they're spending the time and energy directing hate-thought in your and every other church-members' direction, because you're on time? Come on. Who lets a far-fetched notion like that put them off attending their church, if they really want to be there.


Not all late comers, just the type I've learned about on this thread. People like Ken. It stands to reason that if he finds a church with lots of people arriving late "less stressful," then he must think a church full of people who came in on time is more stressful. So it would seem that by being there on time I'm causing stress for the Kens of the world.

Is far-fetched the same as squirrelly?

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Tina
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# 63

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?
You have confused "learning about the Gospel" and the reading of the Gospel, the latter of which is a specific liturgical act at a specific time in the service, which marks a (perhaps arbitrary) line that churches have drawn concerning who may and may not partake. In short, you have made a category error.
The point is that the children and their teachers have missed hearing the Gospel because they were doing an age-appropriate version of what hearing the Gospel is intended to do for the adults (although, sadly, there's more than a grain of truth in Karl's comment [Hot and Hormonal] ). This, I'd argue, is different from when one misses the Gospel because one isn't at the church on time.

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Kindness is mandatory. Anger is necessary. Despair is a terrible idea. Despair is how they win. They won't win forever.

Posts: 503 | From: South London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
roybart
Shipmate
# 17357

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The tide of opinion on this thread is running in the direction of embracing a laid back attitude towards lateness for worship.

Questions:

Does this position also embrace those responsible for opening the church, setting up the service, donning the appropriate clothing, preparing the music, stationing themselves at the doors to welcome congregation and visitors, etc.?

Should these people have an equally free hand as to performing their roles on schedule?

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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