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Source: (consider it) Thread: Postponing Sex
DouglasTheOtter

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Jesus was the Son of God, though.

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Martin60
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So are you.

Ooh and SvitlanaV2! Sorry for the previous missing V.

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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No, God, in His infinite wisdom, made me in his image. He didn't make me perfect or anything remotely like it.

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Martin60
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Be thou perfect. Just like me mate. Aspire in the gutter of running sewage.

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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I can't be perfect, as I'm not built to be.

And I respect anyone's decisions over sex, from those who choose to abstain to those who, after prayerful contemplation, decide that it's okay in certain circumstances.

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Martin60
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Be thou perfect. Just like me mate. Aspire in the gutter of running sewage.

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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What's the 'gutter of running sewage,' incidentally?

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Martin60
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My mad-sane-mad stream of consciousness, my life, my narrative, me.

And all heart broken heart breakers.

And all the broken.

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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Pardon?

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Martin60
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Granted.

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DouglasTheOtter

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Oh, dear.

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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Martin60
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Indeed.

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Love wins

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Doublethink.
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This is a discussion board, it helps if people attempt to use their words to communicate. For the more poetic amongst us - there is the Circus.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For instance, is there any Biblical instruction against (heterosexual) oral sex or (heterosexual) anal sex?

American Calvinist Mark Driscoll is a high-profile and controversial proponent of both.

I haven't read his books, so I don't know to what extent his case is biblically based.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For instance, is there any Biblical instruction against (heterosexual) oral sex or (heterosexual) anal sex?

American Calvinist Mark Driscoll is a high-profile and controversial proponent of both.
He's a high-profile and controversial proponent of both oral and anal sex? [Biased]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For instance, is there any Biblical instruction against (heterosexual) oral sex or (heterosexual) anal sex?

American Calvinist Mark Driscoll is a high-profile and controversial proponent of both.
He's a high-profile and controversial proponent of both oral and anal sex? [Biased]
He really is!

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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St Deird
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is of course nothing wrong with celibacy - but I just wouldn't expect a celibate person to instruct others on sexuality!

Being celibate doesn't mean your sex drive disappears. I'd say celibate people could have a lot to say on how to deal with your sexuality in a healthy way if you're not currently having sex.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For instance, is there any Biblical instruction against (heterosexual) oral sex or (heterosexual) anal sex?

American Calvinist Mark Driscoll is a high-profile and controversial proponent of both.
He's a high-profile and controversial proponent of both oral and anal sex? [Biased]
He really is!
It's really not all that unusual a position (no pun intended). As we've seen, most anyone, evangelical or otherwise, who's done any study of Song of Solomon would (and has) come to a similar conclusion. Driscoll likes to think he's being edgy and cutting-edge, but actually he's not contributing anything more than an adolescent boy giggling because somebody said "boobies" in church.

[ 30. June 2013, 05:39: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is of course nothing wrong with celibacy - but I just wouldn't expect a celibate person to instruct others on sexuality!

Being celibate doesn't mean your sex drive disappears. I'd say celibate people could have a lot to say on how to deal with your sexuality in a healthy way if you're not currently having sex.
Of course, but most people are not celibate. Most people not currently having sex expect to have sex again at some stage...

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It's really not all that unusual a position (no pun intended). As we've seen, most anyone, evangelical or otherwise, who's done any study of Song of Solomon would (and has) come to a similar conclusion. Driscoll likes to think he's being edgy and cutting-edge, but actually he's not contributing anything more than an adolescent boy giggling because somebody said "boobies" in church.

You mean.........it wasn't referring to her navel?

[Biased]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Driscoll likes to think he's being edgy and cutting-edge, but actually he's not contributing anything more than an adolescent boy giggling because somebody said "boobies" in church.

Maybe not to theological scholarship, but he might be contributing something to his congregation and to other congregations of a similar ilk.

In the age of the internet we forget that not every video is going to represent earth-shattering originality. And I suspect that very few 'churchy' videos are designed to impress viewers with advanced theological knowledge. I shouldn't think that's Driscoll's priority, but I could be wrong.

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Martin60
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So, idiotically of course (and yes I read Faulkner's beautifully ironic tale inspired by the Scottish play 40 plus years ago DTO, hubris eh?), WWJD?

And no, I'm no longer satisfied with looking at the world from varifocal glasses that took thousands of years of crafting that stopped thousands of years ago.

(You see the trick DTO, is to spin your internal narrative so that others get stuck in the web, then you can study your prey at your leisure.)

So, despite becoming a neo-liberal, sex remains a litmus test of being Christian. Christ like. Christos. Anointed. Chesed. Blessed to bless.

Not delinquent.

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Love wins

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Driscoll likes to think he's being edgy and cutting-edge, but actually he's not contributing anything more than an adolescent boy giggling because somebody said "boobies" in church.

Maybe not to theological scholarship, but he might be contributing something to his congregation and to other congregations of a similar ilk.

In the age of the internet we forget that not every video is going to represent earth-shattering originality. And I suspect that very few 'churchy' videos are designed to impress viewers with advanced theological knowledge. I shouldn't think that's Driscoll's priority, but I could be wrong.

Right insight, wrong recipient IMHO. I suppose the large crowds following Driscoll indicate he's doing something that's resonating with someone, even if it's a mystery to me why. You're absolutely right that Driscoll's use of the internet, as well as his large and influential congregation represent a tremendous opportunity. My point is that instead of using that opportunity to proclaim a transformational message of grace or the radical gift of God's breaking into our lives, he using the platform to talk about tits and wieners with all the gravitas and social significance of a 13 year old boy. It's tragic that he chooses to use his considerable platform to do nothing more than spread misogynist prattle.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
My point is that instead of using that opportunity to proclaim a transformational message of grace or the radical gift of God's breaking into our lives, he using the platform to talk about tits and wieners with all the gravitas and social significance of a 13 year old boy. It's tragic that he chooses to use his considerable platform to do nothing more than spread misogynist prattle.

ISTM this is why he has a considerable platform. Which only increases the tragedy.

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
This is a discussion board, it helps if people attempt to use their words to communicate.

What?
(skims through Purg threads)
Are you quite certain of this?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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DouglasTheOtter

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What does 'delinquency' mean in this context?

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Martin60
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Its primary meaning.

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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Sorry, you write elliptically, arguably as a substitute for any intellectual effort, and give me nothing to argue with.

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barrea
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's just rather irritating when someone states that the Christian view is that sex before marriage is wrong. That's not correct.

I see many different Christian positions on sexuality, and I would hate to think that my own position was the correct one, and everybody else is wrong.

There is a conversation about sexuality, not a monologue.
[/QUOTE
Sex outside marriage is wrong. The bible both old and new testament teach that fornication is a sin, and to me fornication means any sexual activity outside of marriage, Correct me if you think that is not correct. So whether it is within a steady relationship or casual it is still wrong.

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DouglasTheOtter

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Fornication sounds like a broad church.

Could it also mean anal sex within marriage?

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barrea
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quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
Fornication sounds like a broad church.

Could it also mean anal sex within marriage?

First time I have heard. That but they say one learns something new every day.

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DouglasTheOtter

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It was a question.

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Pomona
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Barrea - firstly, not all Christians believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. The Scriptural argument alone is not convincing for me personally.

Also, could you please quote what Old Testament verses you are thinking of that condemn fornication (which is defined as sexual intercourse between two people who are not married to each other - certainly not including anal sex within marriage!)? There is quite a lot of fornication within the OT!

For the New Testament, there are two words used that deal with sexual immorality - moicheia (adultery) and porneia (commonly translated as fornication or more commonly just sexual immorality). 'Sexual immorality' is obviously quite a vague term and it's not possible to define it strictly as fornication - the Septuagint uses it in reference to male temple prostitution, for instance.

I have no issue with people who interpret the Bible as suggesting that pre-marital sex is sinful, my problem is with saying that it is clear-cut and obvious as to what the Bible says on the subject. As with much in the Bible, it isn't. The Bible really says very little on sex at all.

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Martin60
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I fail to see what's elliptical about the use of the word delinquency in the context of sexual behaviour. I'm more than comfortable with my utter lack of intellectual capacity, you've barely begun to scratch the surface of my vacuous mediocrity. You win. No argument.

Delinquent is as delinquent does.

And, Jade Constable (fellow Northamptonian), it is obvious, with no ambiguity whatsoever, at every stage of cultural evolution that the term is used, what the Bible means by adultery-fornication.

What's that got to do with us?

How do we get from there to here? What is the trajectory? The Old Covenant is lethally homophobic. Paul is barely less. And less Christian? Less met by Christ where he was?

Christ the racist.

We've evolved. Now isn't then. Legalism is as bad when wielded by liberals as conservatives, not a mistake Steve Chalke makes. Or makes any more.

What would Jesus do now? If He were incarnate now in the West. Would He be a sexually active teenager? And how would He minister to sexually active teenagers?

What is God OK with and not OK with and how sophisticated, like He was with the woman at the well, in between?

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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What do you consider to be delinquent behaviour?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is quite a lot of fornication within the OT!


Not sure what you have in mind here, JC.

There is certainly a lot in the OT about sexual relationships which makes us uncomfortable, such as polygamy, concubinage, and the treatment of female slaves, rape victims and prisoners of war, but everything is covered by some sort of law, and there is no toleration of unregulated casual promiscuity.

The only exception which I can think of off the top of my head is the story of Judah and the prostitute, which seems to imply that if she had not been his daughter-in-law Tamar in disguise, the transaction would have been quite normal and routine.

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Net Spinster
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The laws seem to have covered women who belonged to Israelite men whether as kin or as slaves. They didn't cover temporary interactions by Israelite men with women who weren't Israelites. Though there were some gaps even for Jewish women. No explicit laws on what happens if a widow or divorced woman is raped (Tamar's threatened punishment seems to indicate consensual sex still meant death though her status as betrothed [though not bedded] by Judah's third son may have been key). Raping someone's wife would be adultery and so death for the man; the only question might be is if the wife suffered the penalty for that crime also (the law only covers betrothed women).

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Martin60
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Thoughtlessness. No regard for consequence.

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Love wins

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DouglasTheOtter

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So... two gay guys getting married and having sex would be perfectly fine, but sex outside marriage isn't?

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barrea
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
So... two gay guys getting married and having sex would be perfectly fine, but sex outside marriage isn't? [/QUOT

I think you may be taking the mick, you know as well as I do that sex between two men is forbidden according to scripture whether it is inside or outside a so called marriage. Lev.20:13

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DouglasTheOtter

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Ah. A homophobe.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
So... two gay guys getting married and having sex would be perfectly fine, but sex outside marriage isn't? [/QUOT

I think you may be taking the mick, you know as well as I do that sex between two men is forbidden according to scripture whether it is inside or outside a so called marriage. Lev.20:13

If we're still under Levitical law, we're all in trouble - unless you never wear mixed fibre clothing!

Homosexuality is a Dead Horse and should be discussed there not in Purgatory, but safe to say that 'forbidden according to Scripture' is only one take on it and there are plenty of legitimate takes on the issue.

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Martin60
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# 368

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If by marriage we mean outside a fully responsible, accountable, transparent, other centred and whatever synonym you fancy relationship, of course.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DouglasTheOtter

Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681

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Good. Just checking. So the rule here seems to be that penetrative sex, inside marriage, is allowed. Now we've established this as a baseline, it gives us something to work with.

What do you consider to be sex?

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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
So... two gay guys getting married and having sex would be perfectly fine, but sex outside marriage isn't?

I think you may be taking the mick, you know as well as I do that sex between two men is forbidden according to scripture whether it is inside or outside a so called marriage. Lev.20:13
If we're still under Levitical law, we're all in trouble - unless you never wear mixed fibre clothing!

Homosexuality is a Dead Horse and should be discussed there not in Purgatory

Yes. Let's leave it there.

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A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
What do you consider to be sex?

Now that is an interesting question to try to answer economically.

Anything done by, with or to one's genitals that is not for the purpose of health care, self care or excretion ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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In the spirit of the law it includes foreplay and thinking about any of it.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Do nipples count?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
DouglasTheOtter

Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681

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The 'what is sex' question is an interesting one as I imagine every unmarried Christian couple has a different answer. To some, any form of genital touching might be wrong, while others might feel that they can 'get away' with mutual masturbation. As I said before, I think it's down to you - and your conscience.

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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I suppose we are then in to the minefield of flirting -> petting -> heavy petting -> foreplay -> sex. I was only trying to define sex.

Perhaps it would be better to advise couples to stick to anything_thing_you_can_do_in_front_of_your_mother_without_feeling_embarrassed ...

(Assuming you are aiming for traditional morality.)

[ 01. July 2013, 19:28: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Doublethink: I suppose we are then in to the minefield of flirting -> petting -> heavy petting -> foreplay -> sex.
I don't consider that a particularly bad minefield to be in [Biased]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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