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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Postponing Sex
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Douglas: quote:
And for women, they're hugely and abundantly fertile in their teens, which tails off steeply to their forties, when they get more interested in sex.
If you won't accept advice on sex from older men, what makes you think women should accept advice from you?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I'm not offering advice. Just an opinion.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Barrea - firstly, not all Christians believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. The Scriptural argument alone is not convincing for me personally.
Also, could you please quote what Old Testament verses you are thinking of that condemn fornication (which is defined as sexual intercourse between two people who are not married to each other - certainly not including anal sex within marriage!)? There is quite a lot of fornication within the OT!
For the New Testament, there are two words used that deal with sexual immorality - moicheia (adultery) and porneia (commonly translated as fornication or more commonly just sexual immorality). 'Sexual immorality' is obviously quite a vague term and it's not possible to define it strictly as fornication - the Septuagint uses it in reference to male temple prostitution, for instance.
I have no issue with people who interpret the Bible as suggesting that pre-marital sex is sinful, my problem is with saying that it is clear-cut and obvious as to what the Bible says on the subject. As with much in the Bible, it isn't. The Bible really says very little on sex at all.
Jade as you do not believe in the in inerrancy of Scripture and do not take it as your final authority there is not much point in referring to the Bible in relation to ones attitude to sex before marriage.
It is much more a case of making up your own mind and letting your conscience decide what you feel is right.
Um, not being an inerrantist and believing in Scripture together with Tradition and Reason does NOT mean that I don't think the Bible is important, or that I just make things up myself. If I did, why would I quote the Koine Greek?
Why does me not being an inerrantist make you unable to provide reasons for your opinions?
Jade I am able to provide reasons for my opinions on sex before marriage. They are based on the new testament that has many verses condemning fornication, I can't find a verse in the OT that actually says the words that fornication is sin but it is implied in Deuteronomy 22 and in other places.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I wouldn't point my youngest in your direction for either. Which is a tad harsh. At 26 he comes to me and shares ALL. I'm so proud of him and so privileged that he does. I wish I'd had that. I'm sorry if you never have.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
The best people for advice tend to be the people closest to the original mindset through which people are battling. At 40, I believe I'm too old, so anyone older than that might, in general, thought to be even less in touch with it.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
So we can't/don't learn from our elders?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Of course we can, but few things are as desperate as that terrible sexual need. And for that, you need someone closer to it and for whom those are still 'live' feelings.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who's 'you'? And where are these 20 year old sages?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Who's 'you'? I'm just offering an opinion that younger Christians are likely to identify more closely with that part of your children's existence than you.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Er ... how could they not? You can't possibly identify with me being 2/3rds my age. I remember being you and being my son however. My son knows I identify with him. That there's a him in me. There's a you in me too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Because there are some feelings that are stronger.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
3/2 Gwai. I project myself in to 70, 80. One good way is to drink a pint of beer for every decade past 20.
So I feel less than you DTO? Where are you getting this stuff from? That's rhetorical by the way.
Ahhhh! You've had a few beers and imagine you're me!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps older folks aren't any less interested in sex, they're just more discrete about it.
We've been married for forty-three years and are certainly discrete, ie we have sex with each other in particular and not people in general.
We are also discreet, ie we don't do it in the street and frighten the horses.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
No, I'm not saying you feel less.
There are some feelings you're less aware of.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You haven't the faintest idea what I'm feeling. How I'm feeling. Why I'm feeling. What makes you feel that you do?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
You feel nothing like the intensity of your teenage feelings.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And no teenager could feel the intensity of my three lifetimes feelings.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
You're saying that you can remember the intensity of teenage sexual desire?
Bollocks can you.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I think you must mean that you feel nothing like yours.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
You feel nothing like the intensity of your teenage feelings.
I think that's bollocks. I've worked with teenagers whose feelings were blocked; and I've worked with older people whose feelings were beginning to appear for the first time. Your generalizations are crap.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm over 20, and I'm really in the mood for a good old-fashioned fuck right now.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Of course I don't feel like mine.
I'm 40, for pity's sakes.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
You're saying that you can remember the intensity of teenage sexual desire?
Bollocks can you.
If you are so sure that folk can't remember it, how can you yourself be sure that your impression that is has waned is correct?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Because teenagerdom is a time when hormones start to kick in and your body undergoes powerful physiological changes that turn you from a child into an adult. It'd be impossible to recapture the intensity of this time, if only from a biochemical point of view.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
Because teenagerdom is a time when hormones start to kick in and your body undergoes powerful physiological changes that turn you from a child into an adult. It'd be impossible to recapture the intensity of this time, if only from a biochemical point of view.
Sure, it'd be impossible to recapture the intensity of this time from a biochemical point of view. But to suggest that's the only point of view there is, or the only kind of intensity worth discussing, seems rather reductionist.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, this kind of reductionism avoids any mention of love or relationship, which can give their own particular intensity to sex.
It's interesting that the history of psychoanalysis shows this shift - since Freud initially presented a fairly reductionist account of sex - but later post-Freudians brought back into the account the question of relating and love and attachment.
It seems clear, for example, that if two older people fall in love, their sex life may be very intense, as they are going through that classic 'falling in love' phase, which is often emotionally heightened, and therefore sexually intense.
And some teenagers, who may be emotionally not very involved, may indeed find that their sexual experience is flattened, not heightened. In fact, this is a common complaint by them, that sex is disappointing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Reading back over this thread makes me worry that I look like I'm trolling, which I'm genuinely not. I'm trying to articulate a point of view that I seem to be only sporadically successful in doing. Anyway.
We are carbon-based lifeforms who are subject to a range of influences over our behaviour. Genetics are one, and science is revealing how much of us is fixed at the moment of our conception and the circumstances of our birth, and hormones are the other. These are powerful chemicals that control everything from how we think to how we see the world and it often takes a great effort of will to overcome them. When the hormones associated with puberty first spike, they do so in a young body with a developing mind and their effect is dramatic. It would take an insurmountable effort of will to think ourselves back into these younger bodies and younger minds and nothing, repeat, nothing, can recreate in our old bodies that first hormonal bloom.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Sex is disappointing because life is disappointing.
As a kid, you look forward to Christmas very keenly, while not noticing that a central truth at the heart of it is that Christmas Day is a bit disappointing. When you get older, you know this and can recognise that the fun is in the anticipation and not in the day itself. It's the same, I think, with sex. A huge amount of excitement and anticipation and then, in the moments afterwards when the feelings have gone and dissipated like a breaking wave, you wonder what all of the fuss was about and go back to doing what you were doing before.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
Reading back over this thread makes me worry that I look like I'm trolling, which I'm genuinely not. I'm trying to articulate a point of view that I seem to be only sporadically successful in doing. Anyway.
Thanks for this - genuinely, thanks. I was starting to wonder.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
Sex is disappointing because life is disappointing.
As a kid, you look forward to Christmas very keenly, while not noticing that a central truth at the heart of it is that Christmas Day is a bit disappointing. When you get older, you know this and can recognise that the fun is in the anticipation and not in the day itself. It's the same, I think, with sex. A huge amount of excitement and anticipation and then, in the moments afterwards when the feelings have gone and dissipated like a breaking wave, you wonder what all of the fuss was about and go back to doing what you were doing before.
Oddly enough, I pretty much exactly agree with you here. It isn't any of the machinery that's malfunctioning in my case, its my inability to have a sense of anticipation/enthusiasm about stuff - in sex, as in life, as per your first line. And it's that that I miss. But I doubt it has much to do with hormones.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I genuinely think the answer, such as it is, lies in accepting that life is not, perhaps, what you would have it be, and living within the parameters that it sets for you.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
Sex is disappointing because life is disappointing.
As a kid, you look forward to Christmas very keenly, while not noticing that a central truth at the heart of it is that Christmas Day is a bit disappointing. When you get older, you know this and can recognise that the fun is in the anticipation and not in the day itself. It's the same, I think, with sex. A huge amount of excitement and anticipation and then, in the moments afterwards when the feelings have gone and dissipated like a breaking wave, you wonder what all of the fuss was about and go back to doing what you were doing before.
This sounds like something written in a gossip column.
You are completely missing out the issue of relationship and love. I would have that for Christians, to divorce sex from them is particularly bizarre.
As I said earlier, Freud initially argued that people had a biological drive (libido), but later this was challenged by those who emphasized the importance of attachment and relationship.
Just to see humans as biological machines is a basic mistake in terms of human psychology.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
But I think that biological machines, albeit very imperfect ones, is exactly what we are. We're built to reproduce and blindly pass on our genes. This is what we're hardwired to do, and, once we've done it, life has no further use for us. Everything else is after-the-fact justification.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
But I think that biological machines, albeit very imperfect ones, is exactly what we are. We're built to reproduce and blindly pass on our genes. This is what we're hardwired to do, and, once we've done it, life has no further use for us. Everything else is after-the-fact justification.
So you would say that you're not a person?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I'm an individual insofar as I'm allowed to be by my biology.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
I'm an individual insofar as I'm allowed to be by my biology.
That's bollocks. You're having your cake and eating it. On the one hand, you say that you're a machine; on the other hand, you say that life is disappointing. How can it be for a machine?
So when you're dying, we can just put you out with the trash, as a broken machine.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's bollocks. You're having your cake and eating it. On the one hand, you say that you're a machine; on the other hand, you say that life is disappointing. How can it be for a machine
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to take you to the bridge."
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I said that I'm an imperfect machine.
As to what happens to me when I'm dead or dying, I honestly don't give a bugger as long as I'm comfortable.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
But I think that biological machines, albeit very imperfect ones, is exactly what we are. We're built to reproduce and blindly pass on our genes. This is what we're hardwired to do, and, once we've done it, life has no further use for us. Everything else is after-the-fact justification.
Is this biological determinism? Where do celibates (abstaining from sex/never had sex for whatever reason) and infertile people fit into this scheme of things? Are they simply faulty machines, because they have 'failed' to fulfil their biological destiny? I'm not warming to such a reductionist view of humanity, to say the least ...
Yes, the sex drive is strong because we are designed to make babies and keep the human race going. But just because some of us don't do that doesn't make us redundant, or our lives meaningless. There is more to us than our biology. IMO.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
To be totally honest, and I'm aware that this sounds rather harsh, people who don't have children are irrelevant to the species. It rolls on without them. People have enough children to replenish the herd and, whatever reasons they cite, nature is indifferent to them.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Barrea - firstly, not all Christians believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. The Scriptural argument alone is not convincing for me personally.
Also, could you please quote what Old Testament verses you are thinking of that condemn fornication (which is defined as sexual intercourse between two people who are not married to each other - certainly not including anal sex within marriage!)? There is quite a lot of fornication within the OT!
For the New Testament, there are two words used that deal with sexual immorality - moicheia (adultery) and porneia (commonly translated as fornication or more commonly just sexual immorality). 'Sexual immorality' is obviously quite a vague term and it's not possible to define it strictly as fornication - the Septuagint uses it in reference to male temple prostitution, for instance.
I have no issue with people who interpret the Bible as suggesting that pre-marital sex is sinful, my problem is with saying that it is clear-cut and obvious as to what the Bible says on the subject. As with much in the Bible, it isn't. The Bible really says very little on sex at all.
Jade as you do not believe in the in inerrancy of Scripture and do not take it as your final authority there is not much point in referring to the Bible in relation to ones attitude to sex before marriage.
It is much more a case of making up your own mind and letting your conscience decide what you feel is right.
Um, not being an inerrantist and believing in Scripture together with Tradition and Reason does NOT mean that I don't think the Bible is important, or that I just make things up myself. If I did, why would I quote the Koine Greek?
Why does me not being an inerrantist make you unable to provide reasons for your opinions?
Jade I am able to provide reasons for my opinions on sex before marriage. They are based on the new testament that has many verses condemning fornication, I can't find a verse in the OT that actually says the words that fornication is sin but it is implied in Deuteronomy 22 and in other places.
As I've said, porneia is not always translated as fornication, so what the NT condemns is not straightforward sex outside of marriage. Deuteronomy 22 concerns adultery and prostitution, not a sexual relationship before marriage. Again, do you think Christians have to obey the OT law?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
To be totally honest, and I'm aware that this sounds rather harsh, people who don't have children are irrelevant to the species. It rolls on without them. People have enough children to replenish the herd and, whatever reasons they cite, nature is indifferent to them.
Isaiah 56 suggests differently.
I do not want children - but I am not irrelevant to others, and certainly not to God.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
No, you certainly aren't irrelevant to God, but you're irrelevant to the species because it will carry on without you. Nature is harsh and unsparing in that way.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
What Jade said.
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
To be totally honest, and I'm aware that this sounds rather harsh, people who don't have children are irrelevant to the species. It rolls on without them. People have enough children to replenish the herd and, whatever reasons they cite, nature is indifferent to them.
And this is why I could never be a biological determinist. It's one thing to deny basic biology, quite another to believe that's all we exist for.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
What Jade said.
quote:
Originally posted by DouglasTheOtter:
To be totally honest, and I'm aware that this sounds rather harsh, people who don't have children are irrelevant to the species. It rolls on without them. People have enough children to replenish the herd and, whatever reasons they cite, nature is indifferent to them.
And this is why I could never be a biological determinist. It's one thing to deny basic biology, quite another to believe that's all we exist for.
As to what we exist for, I don't know. That's decided on an infinitely higher level than the one I'll ever be on, but for all our arguments and squabbles and affectations at personality, we're an animal and are subject to the same laws of nature.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Human beings do more than reproduce. There are countless examples of people who have had a huge impact on the species across history who didn't reproduce. So if all that matters are the number of naked apes on the rock, then yes, non-breeders are irrelevant. But that's not all that matters, even outside the context of religion.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Human beings do more than reproduce. There are countless examples of people who have had a huge impact on the species across history who didn't reproduce. So if all that matters are the number of naked apes on the rock, then yes, non-breeders are irrelevant. But that's not all that matters, even outside the context of religion.
Yes. We pass along more than just genetic material, we pass along knowledge. This is a huge factor in the advancement of homo sapiens. Anyone who contributes to that knowledge base that is passed along from one generation to another-- through teaching, research, exploration, writing, discovery etc.-- is directly passing something along that sustains the species. Others are contributing in more indirect ways.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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