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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I have only recently become aware of Hymns Old and New, each with a sticker proclaiming their donation to the church by a couple who, I hope, discussed the matter before going overboard.
Since most hymn books contain a large number of unsung hymns, that this one also does doesn't bother me too much, but I find that it is in alphabetical order not grouped by theme, and that it is in narrow columns which do not do justice to line length irritating. Unlike the books forced on the church my parents went to at the end of their lives by the head teacher at the school, it does not muck about with the Thees and Thous and the poetry of such things as "Be Thou my Vision" and "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind". (At my parents church there was a group at the back who persisted in singing the right words - my family and the Goulds (Diana of the Belgrano).)
There is quite a lot of minor buggering about with words in H O&N. Sometimes this is done with the I suppose laudable enough aims of making them more inclusive, especially in respect of gender- but this seems to be done rather inconsistently and with a bit of a tin ear- e.g. in 'City of God how broad and far', the line 'the true thy chartered freemen are/ of every age and clime' becomes something like 'thy true and something people are/ of every age and clime', which (a) loses the specific metaphor which the author originally included and (b) overlooks, presumably out of ignorance, indeed even ignorance of the metaphor being there at all, that 'freeman' (of a city) is in fact a title which applies to women and men alike. In one or two places it is done because they don't want choirboys to snigger (e.g. 'As they offered gifts most rare/ at that cradle rude and bare' becomes 'as their gifts they gently laid/ at that cradle roughly made') which strikes me as rather pathetic, and at other times the change seems so gratuitous that I can only conclude it is done for a purpose which hosts have told me before not to mention here for fear of saying something libellous. There is also a certain amount of minor messing around with tunes, for which again I am unable to think of any non-potentially-libellous explanation.
[ 18. July 2017, 10:00: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I obviously haven't been there long enough to spot those. Hmmm.
Back in the past, at the same church, with an archaic hymnbook to which modern did not apply, I (and others) would get antsy about "Forth in Thy Name, O Lord we go" which we expected to have some long notes in, but which the elderly lady organist played with every note the same length. I know others didn't like it because I could hear them trying, as I did, to draw the long notes out as far as possible. When I eventually got sight of a music edition, I was amazed to see that the organist had been playing it as written. Who did that? To such a good tune? Turned it leaden footed?
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I obviously haven't been there long enough to spot those. Hmmm.
...
I think that's why it sells- I've been told that's what happened at our shack. People say 'oh look, it's got lots of stuff in it (true), it's got a wide variety of stuff in it (true) including quite a lot of [fairly] modern stuff as well as old favourites (true), let's get it'. Only with using it do the faults come to light. Of course, some people may not notice them, or think they are faults, or think they are serious enough faults to matter. But any way, by then you've got 100+ of the bloody things and it's difficult to justify spending money on something else while they remain physically serviceable. (Not, for some reason, that churches like the one I mention up-thread appeared to apply that criterion to their stocks of the NEH or whatever it was.) When the new version of A&M came out a couple of years ago I had a few bob spare and did quite seriously think about offering to fund a large sale purchase of it to replace HO&N in our parish, but after thinking it over, it did seem a bit of an indulgence.
BTW, Hymns A&M is a charity & gives quite generous grants, in kind, to help churches buy their products, as well as cash grants for a range of projects from its surplus funds. Kevin Mayhew is AFAIK run on very firmly commercial lines- which is fair enough, because they have a living to make, but might be something churches might wish to consider when deciding where to spend their money.
[ 18. July 2017, 12:53: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And the other stupid irritation is that they don't fit on the little shelf on the pew in front without falling off when open.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
You're right, they are quite unwieldy, aren't they?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The NEH is not immune to the curse of 'updating': in Lead us, heavenly father, lead us the line
"Lone and dreary, faint and weary" has morphed into "Self-denying, death-defying" which, after the initial teeth-grinding, conjures up for me a mental image of one of those intrepid motorcyclists on a Wall of Death at a fairground.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And the other stupid irritation is that they don't fit on the little shelf on the pew in front without falling off when open.
You clearly need bigger shelves ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ; or ...
... screens! (Runs for cover as fast as he can as assorted hymnals, psalters, prayer books and even Gift Aid envelopes cascade around him).
[ 19. July 2017, 16:08: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Noooo!
BTW croeso i Gymru.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And the other stupid irritation is that they don't fit on the little shelf on the pew in front without falling off when open.
WHy would they be open on a shelf on the back of the pew in front when you are trying to use them -- sing from them I suppose? Normally that is done standing up. My eyes, at least, even corrected by spectacles, mean that I have to hold the book up to be able to use it. Unless the back of the pew in front rises to about 5 feet.
JOhn
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
WHy would they be open on a shelf on the back of the pew in front when you are trying to use them -- sing from them I suppose?
It is my habit to find the next hymn in the hymnal at the close of the previous hymn, and leave the hymnal open in readiness.
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KT B
Apprentice
# 18814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Ah, the "unintentional plagiarism" problem worship-song: there are so many which could be better described as a direct rip-off they could (should) have their own index.
And now you've mentioned SYFTKOG I have an earworm of my own: Let there be love shared among us, aka that well-known hit for Englebert Humperdinck Les Bicyclettes de Belsize ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Delighted with the demise of "I am a new creation" - no more inner panic that I might accidentally slip into "Make a little bird house in my soul".
Still working on accepting "O praise the name (Anastasis)" by Hillsongs being fundementally different from Vicky Beeching's "O preicous
Sight" maybe they both nicked it from something older!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
BTW croeso i Gymru.
Diolch!
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Please remember to also give translations in English according to the normal board rules.
Thanks!
Louise
Dead Horses Host
[ 27. July 2017, 21:50: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
"Welcome to Wales"
"Thank you"
Hope this helps
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Thanks - fun to learn a bit of Welsh!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I haven't learned it: G**gle was my friend.
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
We've been singing Hillsong's What A Beautiful Name which does have some meaningful lyrics and a moving tune, on the whole, but I refuse to only sing 'You silenced the boast, of sin and grave'. I feel compelled to add 'the' before 'grave', as Jesus didn't silence the boast of grave. Grave what?
Sometimes (actually, often), I think I'm the only one who thinks about what he/ she sings.
[ 28. July 2017, 08:11: Message edited by: Mr Clingford ]
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I suspect the author was thinking of 1 Cor. 15:55 (in the Authorised Version!): "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" Both death and grave are almost anthropomorphised here by Paul.
[ 28. July 2017, 08:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
And it's poetry, where strict adherence to rules of grammar is often relaxed.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I suspect the author was thinking of 1 Cor. 15:55 (in the Authorised Version!): "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" Both death and grave are almost anthropomorphised here by Paul.
Alright, you are making me ponder this one.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Not familiar with that one, so I've just Googled the lyrics.
That line illustrates a bugbear of mine in contemporary choruses, which is the awkward juxtaposition of grandiose KJV-ish or pseudo-Wesleyan archaisms with banal bits of modern-speak.
The worst offender is 'All I once held dear', where you go from 'all this world reveres and wars to own' to 'you're my all, you're the best'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by KT B:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Ah, the "unintentional plagiarism" problem worship-song: there are so many which could be better described as a direct rip-off they could (should) have their own index.
And now you've mentioned SYFTKOG I have an earworm of my own: Let there be love shared among us, aka that well-known hit for Englebert Humperdinck Les Bicyclettes de Belsize
Delighted with the demise of "I am a new creation" - no more inner panic that I might accidentally slip into "Make a little bird house in my soul".
Still working on accepting "O praise the name (Anastasis)" by Hillsongs being fundementally different from Vicky Beeching's "O preicous
Sight" maybe they both nicked it from something older!
Likewise, when singing All I once held dear, I have to be careful at the lines "You're my all, you're the best, you're my joy, my righteousness". The temptation to sing "With a quack, with a quack, with a waddle and a quack" is very great indeed.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
We had, last week, along with "Come ye thankful people come", for the sound of the combine is heard in the land, a piece by Graham Kendrick which did some very odd things with the tune, stretching out long notes in the last line of the chorus for some unfathomable reason. (It might have been better with the organ, but that is not in use at the moment, due to building works. A capella did not work.)
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Possible - quite a bit of Kendrick's stuff is not exactly easy, especially a capella.
We're lucky at Our Place - not only do we have a fairly decent electronic organ (a Johannus), but also a very fine grand piano, given to us as a free gift a few years ago. Our usual organist, and her friend who deputises now and then, are both accomplished pianists (they have only recently mastered the organ!), and are happy to switch from one instrument to the other during the service, depending on which one they think best to accompany whatever hymn or song we're singing.
What a blessing are the musically-talented....
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
WHy would they be open on a shelf on the back of the pew in front when you are trying to use them -- sing from them I suppose?
It is my habit to find the next hymn in the hymnal at the close of the previous hymn, and leave the hymnal open in readiness.
We supply bookmarks (cut from old greetings cards) for this purpose - several of us have worked in libraries and it pains us mightily to see people put their open hymnbooks face down on the pew, which tends to weaken the spines. We had to order a whole new bunch o' books a few months ago as many of them had become really scabby ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our regular sidesman prepares the hymnbooks before the service by using the weekly bulletin as a bookmark for the first hymn. This gently reminds the faithful to do the same for the rest of the hymns, and seems to work!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our usual organist, and her friend who deputises now and then, are both accomplished pianists (they have only recently mastered the organ!), and are happy to switch from one instrument to the other during the service, depending on which one they think best to accompany whatever hymn or song we're singing.
What a blessing are the musically-talented....
IJ
Can we borrow one of them, please?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
No.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Baptist Trainfan, I think you are correct. I couldn't sing it - couldn't pick up the tune at all, which is unusual.
It was definitely one in which the alliteration and rhyme pattern set up in the first verse did not follow into the subsequent ones.
[ 30. July 2017, 13:17: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It was definitely one in which the alliteration and rhyme pattern set up in the first verse did not follow into the subsequent ones.
Mmm, I know what you mean - but that doesn't sound like "Meekness and majesty". I can't however think what it might have been, except perhaps "My Lord, what love is this?"
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Definitely was. I have now checked. Actually, the ideas are good, but I found the tune tricky, in the chorus, and then the not rhymes grated. I think the anapaests are difficult to rhyme, and my ear was wanting them to. Should have listened to the substance.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Tonight I had to learn the following, ready to teach it to our young people at Holiday Club next week:
I've got a very big Goddo (wave arms in air)
He's always at my side (slap hips)
By my side, by my side (slap hips again)
I've got a very big Goddo (wave arms in air)
By my side, by my side (slap hips)
Goddo? Goddo??
Shoot me now.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
That's no way to refer to Godzilla - be sure to take one along!
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Tonight I had to learn the following, ready to teach it to our young people at Holiday Club next week:
I've got a very big Goddo (wave arms in air)
He's always at my side (slap hips)
By my side, by my side (slap hips again)
I've got a very big Goddo (wave arms in air)
By my side, by my side (slap hips)
Goddo? Goddo??
Shoot me now.
"I've got a very big God, oh!"
Someone in your worship team wrote it out from memory.
Personally, I find the next lines more objectionable:
quote:
God is big all over me,
God is big all over you ...
I mean, whut?
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Even the late-lamented 'Children's Christian Crusade' (UK, 1970s-1980s) didn't quite reach that level of banality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbGr2YzcRs8
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
The Goddo song involves crouching down for "Man's love is so small, it's so small, it's so small" x 7) (yes, x 7) and then springing up "like a firework" for "But God's love is so big"
After a week of Holiday Club, my knees are knackered from the slowly sinking down into a crouch, my hips are knackered from staying crouching while the line is repeated seven times and my attempts at springing back up were more damp squib than exploding firework.
Sigh
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Does no-one ever check their output passes the laugh test? I mean, really...
NEQ - if I were God putting up with that would pretty much get you out of any Purgatory due...
[ 20. August 2017, 12:10: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It's not, of itself, a rubbish song, anything but, but while we were singing "Were you there when they crucified my Lord?" this morning, and I was trying to follow the very choirish setting, and suppressing my urge to sing it gospel-style, and thinking of the contrast between its roots in slavery and its expression in white MOtR CofE, I suddenly had a wow moment. There were these people singing about God suffering beating and stabbing and lynching, just as they might. No wonder they picked up Christianity when their masters didn't want them to. God was with them and shared our suffering in detail. Talk about speaking to their condition. The setting we had was anodyne.
[ 20. August 2017, 12:11: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Things were no better in the old days. I found this in my church's records, dated 1754:
...most of the Congregation were ignorant of Church Music and those who attempted to sing in divine service did it in a very disagreeable and inharmonious manner and as Three of the parts in which the Church Tunes were set, were entirely lost, none attempting to sing any but the Tenor part and as the present Tunes usually sung in this Congregation were very few in number and not sufficient to answer the purposes of Devotion....
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Wow. Your church's records must really be well worth reading - fascinating stuff! What an insight into the past....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Things were no better in the old days. I found this in my church's records, dated 1754:
...most of the Congregation were ignorant of Church Music and those who attempted to sing in divine service did it in a very disagreeable and inharmonious manner and as Three of the parts in which the Church Tunes were set, were entirely lost, none attempting to sing any but the Tenor part and as the present Tunes usually sung in this Congregation were very few in number and not sufficient to answer the purposes of Devotion....
This sounds like a plea for better musical training for the laity. It doesn't seem to be a criticism of the songs themselves.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Wow. Your church's records must really be well worth reading - fascinating stuff! What an insight into the past....
IJ
Our local Kirk Session's minutes have been transcribed and published in book form, at least from 1775-1816. I'm not sure I dare look, lest I discover the same arguments (with the same surnames attached) have been raging for 200 years.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Things were no better in the old days. I found this in my church's records, dated 1754:
...most of the Congregation were ignorant of Church Music and those who attempted to sing in divine service did it in a very disagreeable and inharmonious manner and as Three of the parts in which the Church Tunes were set, were entirely lost, none attempting to sing any but the Tenor part and as the present Tunes usually sung in this Congregation were very few in number and not sufficient to answer the purposes of Devotion....
This sounds like a plea for better musical training for the laity. It doesn't seem to be a criticism of the songs themselves.
The background to this stems from the Scottish Psalter of 1650, which restricted psalm singing to a limited number of tunes. As the decades went on, local congregations started adapting and elaborating the "twelve tunes" with confident singers adding grace notes. It sounds as though in my parish by 1754, the confident singers were making it up as they went along and the less-than-confident singers had simply given up. So in that respect, it was a criticism of the tunes themselves; the official "twelve tunes" were "not sufficient to answer the purposes of Devotion."
New tunes were written, old tunes were stripped back to their original form and the congregation were taught to sing the tune, and not sing anything that wasn't in the tune.
While there doesn't seem to have been much argument against this on musical grounds, there was some political dissent. This was just nine years after Culloden. Many aspects of Scottish life, such as tartan, had been proscribed, and now people were going to be denied the right to invent variations on a theme whilst singing psalms in church.... Outrage!!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I've just come across - quite accidentally while looking for something else - a rather lovely quote from J.B. Phillips' "Your God is too small".
"It is natural and right, of course, that the worship we offer to God in public should be of the highest possible quality. But that must not lead us to conceive a musically “Third- Programme” god who prefers the exquisite rendering of a cynical professional choir to the ragged bawling of sincere but untutored hearts".
Note for those who don't know: the "Third Programme" was the BBC's "high culture" classical music and literature radio programme at the time (?1950s) Phillips was writing.
[ 25. September 2017, 11:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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