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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Treiglad meddal - the Welsh thread
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Note - treiglad meddal is the most common mutation (the "soft" mutation). A mutation is the way that the beginning of a word changes - for example the word for pencil is pensil, but if I'm wanting to say your pencil, it'd correctly be dy bensil di. Anyway -
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This might not work, but let's try talking about Welsh, the language and any other related issues you might be interested in.
So here are a few suggestions for things to talk about;
* Particular phrases
* Grammar
* Position of the language in Wales and elsewhere
* Whether the use of Welsh in parts of Wales where almost nobody speaks it is "political correctness"
* Whether there is any point in someone who isn't even in Wales learning Welsh
Just to start off, my class has been learning about some irregular future verbs.
So for example the verb "to go" is mynd, which goes weird in the future tense.
The informal "you" is Ei di.
House is Tŷ and black is du
Then the informal "your" is dy ---- di which mutates, so your house is dy dŷ di
And "your black house" is dy dŷ du di
And so "you are going to see your black house" is Ei di dy dŷ du di.
Which, in conclusion, is why Welsh is awesome.
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arse
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Well, I'm trying to learn Welsh via Duolingo - there are no Welsh classes where I am, although the Welsh did briefly rule York during the so-called Dark Ages.
Why bother to learn a language you will probably never need to speak? Here are my reasons:
- It's interesting. Not just interesting in itself, but interesting to see the connections between Welsh and other languages that I know - the names for days of the week, for example: Monday is dydd Llun (cf French lundi).
- If you want to study medieval British literature you need to be able to read all the languages used to write it, not just Middle English. Some of the earliest Arthurian poetry is in Welsh. Poetry doesn't translate well.
- Some of my ancestors were Welsh. The Welsh language is an important aspect of Welsh culture - what's left of it after eight centuries of English rule.
- Being able to speak/read/understand more than one language is good for the brain. People who are bilingual or multilingual have significant cognitive advantages compared to monolinguals.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I tried learning Welsh when we were there for a few weeks a few summers back, partly so we could say the place names correctly and had more understanding of what the signs said. All went swimmingly in Pembrokeshire (we were walking the coast path) for two weeks. Then we travelled up to Snowdonia, whereupon the pronunciation and usage changed and I gave up.
My daughter is now trying to learn Irish Gaelic - she likes learning languages.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
My grand-parents were Welsh and I would've loved to learn from them but they found it far too useful to be able to speak freely in Welsh when we were there knowing there would be no way their English-speaking-only grandchildren couldn't understand a word. All I picked up was nos da (good night). ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
p'nawn da bawb (afternoon all)
Cheesy - that's even worse in the north, where du and dŷ are pronounced slightly differently to di. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) And don't forget that di can be a shortening of wedi... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[ 02. November 2017, 13:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Pry yawn da!
Welsh was compulsory in school till form 3. I dropped it in favour of French for O level, but regretted it.
I did a Welsh evening class and I later did a course via work and passed Mynediad - entrance level, about equivalent to a GCSE, but didn't get much chance to siarad Cymraeg.
Last year - about 10 years on - I started a Mynediad course again and was shocked at the way it was taught - the emphasis is now very much on spoken Welsh, so whilst I remember "Rydw I, rwyt ti" etc. it's now "dw I, dwt ti" etc, which I found quite difficult.
Unfortunately, the class hasn't continued in my town - year 2 is in Caerphilly, which I could get to by train, but would be a potch.
Lord and Lady P say they want to learn, so perhaps I'll get a chance to practise with them.
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
// tangent
quote:
House is Tŷ and black is du
In Scottish Gaelic house is tigh (pronounced tie) and black is dubh (pronounced doo)
On the subject of houses, tigh beag, little house, is a lavatory. Incomers sometimes think that "Little House" in Gaelic is a charming name for a holiday home ....
end tangent //
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Cheesy - that's even worse in the north, where du and dŷ are pronounced slightly differently to di. And don't forget that di can be a shortening of wedi...
Not heard of the wedi shortening, but yes here in the south all the dis in that sentence are pronounced slightly differently.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
// tangent
quote:
House is Tŷ and black is du
In Scottish Gaelic house is tigh (pronounced tie) and black is dubh (pronounced doo)
On the subject of houses, tigh beag, little house, is a lavatory. Incomers sometimes think that "Little House" in Gaelic is a charming name for a holiday home ....
end tangent //
That's interesting, in Welsh it is Tŷ Bach, which sounds like it might be pronounced in a similar way.
There are quite a number of farms etc called Tŷ Bach. I find this a bit odd.
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arse
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
No more odd than there being examples of Tŷ Mawr around ...
Anyhow, where yew are to now, it ourroo be Wenglish yew dah talk, rather than Welsh isn't it?
Talk tidy, like wharreye dah do.
Or did, when I grew up down there.*
* To be hoarnest mind, as an eddewecairted man, I doarn ten' to talk tidy. I dah talk normal. I dah still 'ave the accent mind, but not so many of the phrases they dah ewese down in the Valleys by there. Gorroo talk as tidy as they do elsewhere otherwise no-one'dge'my drift.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I tried learning Welsh when we were there for a few weeks a few summers back, partly so we could say the place names correctly and had more understanding of what the signs said. All went swimmingly in Pembrokeshire (we were walking the coast path) for two weeks. Then we travelled up to Snowdonia, whereupon the pronunciation and usage changed and I gave up.
Well aye, mun, but yew'd need more 'anna few weeks.
The Gogledd do pronounce words differently as there are, of course, regional variations in Welsh as in any other language.
For their part, the Gogledd (North Walians) refer to people from Pembrokeshire and other parts of South West Wales as 'tatws' - potatoes - as the first spuds of the season tended to come from there, a week or so in advance of the spuds in the north.
It's relatively easy to grasp the pronunciation for place names and so on, for all the variations, but the killer comes with the mutations and variations that make Welsh one of the most difficult languages to learn.
I wouldn't pretend to know where to start with all that. We didn't speak Welsh in South Wales but learnt a smattering at school and enough to sing the National Anthem, Sospan Fach and to at least pronounce place names properly (tidy) if we found ourselves in West Wales, Mid-Wales or North Wales - or some of the more westerly of the Valleys.
Otherwise, the standard practice in Gwent (Monmouthshire) was to mangle the Welsh language as badly as we mauled the Queen's English.
We couldn't speak either properly (tidy).
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Pembrokeshire is a law to itself. The southern part hasn't spoken Welsh for centuries, of cause, and North of the Landsker the dialect is - distinct. It's done a similar thing to French to the oe sound - formally pronounced as "oi", sometimes reduced to long "o", in Pembrokeshire they say 'we'.
I'm learning Gog; I'm more likely to go to the North and it's the part of Wales I love best anyway. So it's Medra i (I can), dw i ddim (I'm not, none of this "Sa i" stuff...)
Digon i rwan, mi ddylwn i weithio... (enough for now, I should be working)
(Bonus point for anyone who can spot both the "Gog markers" in that sentence)
[ 03. November 2017, 13:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No more odd than there being examples of Tŷ Mawr around ...
True but it does look like the farms are being called Toilet.
quote:
Anyhow, where yew are to now, it ourroo be Wenglish yew dah talk, rather than Welsh isn't it?
Nope almost no Welsh spoken in this valley at all, possibly a different thing in the valleys to the West of here.
quote:
Talk tidy, like wharreye dah do.
Yes, it is certainly a distinctive dialect. And one I didn't realise was so localised until I went to Newport the other day and realised I couldn't understand a word that a man (with a broad local Welsh accent) was saying to me.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Digon i rwan, mi ddylwn i weithio... (enough for now, I should be working)
(Bonus point for anyone who can spot both the "Gog markers" in that sentence)
I think rwan is more Northern than the Southern nawr. Not sure about the other - maybe starting a sentence with "mi"?
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Digon i rwan, mi ddylwn i weithio... (enough for now, I should be working)
(Bonus point for anyone who can spot both the "Gog markers" in that sentence)
I think rwan is more Northern than the Southern nawr. Not sure about the other - maybe starting a sentence with "mi"?
Right on both counts
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I tried learning Welsh when we were there for a few weeks a few summers back, partly so we could say the place names correctly and had more understanding of what the signs said. All went swimmingly in Pembrokeshire (we were walking the coast path) for two weeks. Then we travelled up to Snowdonia, whereupon the pronunciation and usage changed and I gave up.
Well aye, mun, but yew'd need more 'anna few weeks.
The Gogledd do pronounce words differently as there are, of course, regional variations in Welsh as in any other language.
For their part, the Gogledd (North Walians) refer to people from Pembrokeshire and other parts of South West Wales as 'tatws' - potatoes - as the first spuds of the season tended to come from there, a week or so in advance of the spuds in the north.
It's relatively easy to grasp the pronunciation for place names and so on, for all the variations, but the killer comes with the mutations and variations that make Welsh one of the most difficult languages to learn.
Variations yes - how many ways do you want to be able to say "I went" - "(Mi/Fe) (G)(w)nes i mynd", "es i", "(mi) ddaru i mi mynd"... the mutations, meh, Nghymru looks scary but really yng Nghymru isn't that different in speech to "*yn Cymru" - what's weird is the generalisation of the soft mutation, so we get "yn Gymru", but I suppose that's because yn does cause soft mutation of nouns and adjectives.
Much worse, for me, are the unpredictable genders, plurals and noun stems. You can largely get away with the noun stems unless you need an imperative, but the other two are real traps, and no-one will be able to avoid grimacing at "*dau cath"
[ 04. November 2017, 00:32: Message edited by: jedijudy ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
(can some nice person clean up what I spilt on the floor UBB-wise. Sorry)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(can some nice person clean up what I spilt on the floor UBB-wise. Sorry)
Sure! Glad to help. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
What permutation of subject verb object do Welsh sentences take? Or can it vary?
[ 04. November 2017, 04:29: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
VSO is normal, other orders imply emphasis. It's also complicated by auxiliary verbs; technically the auxiliary is the main verb and the verb following it is a predicate.
Bydda i'n mynd i'r swyddfa heddiw
WillBe I a-going to the office today
I'r swyddfa bydda i'n mynd heddiw - implies 'and not to the pub, cinema or park.'
Mynd i'r swyddfa bydda i heddiw - implies 'I'm going and that's that.'
Exception is what are called identification sentences:
Pwy ydy o? Who is he?
Siôn ydy o. He's Siôn.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thank you (how do you say that?)
If you don't mind another linguistic-nerd question then I'll let you get back to your normal programme...
Are the numbers 11 to 12 the odd ones out as they are in English (or 11 to 16 in French...)?
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Diolch = thank you
Diolch yn fawr = thank you very much
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
From Gamaliel:
quote:
We didn't speak Welsh in South Wales but learnt a smattering at school and enough to sing the National Anthem
Hence the delightful mixing of Welsh and English common in the valleys - such as "Dim problem".
(Dim = No).
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
From Gamaliel:
quote:
We didn't speak Welsh in South Wales but learnt a smattering at school and enough to sing the National Anthem
Hence the delightful mixing of Welsh and English common in the valleys - such as "Dim problem".
(Dim = No).
Actually the original meaning of dim is 'anything' (as in the proverbial phrase Heb Dduw Heb Ddim 'Without God (one is) Without Anything') but its regular use in such negative contexts means that it's now regularly taken to mean 'nothing.' Neb 'no-one' in everyday spoken Welsh has taken the same journey.
Is Welsh hard to learn? Well, little children seem to find it easy enough! I accept that a lot of English speakers struggle with it, but then I, being a first-language Welsh-speaker, find a lot of English rather tricksy.
In particular I find English pronouns utterly baffling when they're used without any clear reference to who's being spoken about - 'Anyway, he meant to say to him - after he'd seen him in town - that he ought to come round to see him, but he wasn't able to.' Aaaarggghhh!
Welsh, which has pronouns that can neatly sort this mess out - fe and yntau - is far easier to untangle!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
In particular I find English pronouns utterly baffling when they're used without any clear reference to who's being spoken about
So do English-only speakers. One is supposed to include a referent for a pronoun anywhere it isn't immediate obvious what the pronoun refers to. Alas, many people fail to do so.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
In particular I find English pronouns utterly baffling when they're used without any clear reference to who's being spoken about
So do English-only speakers. One is supposed to include a referent for a pronoun anywhere it isn't immediate obvious what the pronoun refers to. Alas, many people fail to do so.
Including, it appears, the translators of the Authorised Version, sometimes with strange results: And when they awoke in the morning, lo, they were all dead.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Actually the original meaning of dim is 'anything' (as in the proverbial phrase Heb Dduw Heb Ddim 'Without God (one is) Without Anything') but its regular use in such negative contexts means that it's now regularly taken to mean 'nothing.' Neb 'no-one' in everyday spoken Welsh has taken the same journey.
Huh, that's very interesting - I didn't know that.
It does seem as a novice that there are various kinds of Welsh which possibly reflect formality and the age of the person speaking. There seems to be quite a lot of drift with regard to meaning.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
As with all languages. There's also the literary language which would sound a bit silly if you spoke it. Cf. Yr ydych chwi, colloqial dŷch chi; y mae ef, colloquial mae e, oes arnat ti eisiau cwpaned o de, colloquial t'isio panad o de?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Noswaith dda,
Haggis dw i. Dw i'n mynd i dysgu siarad Cymraeg yn Cardyff. Dw i'n hoffi byw yn Gardyff.
Probably got that wrong!
I tried several learning Welsh sites on-line but they either asked for money after a couple of lessons or just had more and more verbal strings saying that you you were learning Welsh. I wanted to communicate properly.
Then, I discovered lessons at our local leisure centre (I can get by bus) from "Welsh for Adults" run from Cardiff Uni. It is reasonably priced and there are lots of activities where you can practice,Saturday conversation sessions, pub meetings etc, including buying a mag called "lingo newydd."
It's great fun and is conversation based although you do cover grammar, mutations etc. You need someone to correct your pronunciation, particularly with the more difficult Welsh sounds and the diphthongs which don't sound as English ones do. You don't get that with on-line lessons. Although I did discover a helpful series on "Welsh Pronunciation" which gives you N & S pronunciations.
I now go to visit an old lady in our church once a week to do pronunciation practice and enjoy a paned.
When you learn a language you need not only to practice it but also to hear it around you. "Radio Gymraeg" and S4C are a good help.
Welsh isn't the same as Gaelic. There are 2 strands of the Celtic languages. One which has Irish & Scottish Gaelic and the second which has Welsh, Breton and Cornish which are related. When I was studying in Lisbon a number of years ago one of our lecturers was trying to get down the Celtic language spoken in Tras os Montes region. Very few speakers were left and he wanted the Celtic language recorded and analysed before it died out completely. Never did find out which strand of Celtic it belonged to.
The mutations are a problem but my teacher says that they do come as you practice speaking. Not as complex as Hungarian vowel harmony though!!!
Pob hwyl.
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Don't know what your professor was trying to track down, but indigenous Celtic languages haven't been spoken south of Brittany (or anywhere outside Brittany on the continent) for over a thousand years.
[ 04. November 2017, 18:22: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Tregaron? I lived there in a previous existence! That's where I first learned the phrase: Beware of the Taffia - they'll make you an offer you can't understand! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Got a question for you Welsh speakers out there. So how does hoil best translate (I may have the spelling wrong) - usually seems to mean something along the lines of passion, zeal, spirit.
I have a vague recollection of being told a Welsh greeting was sut hoil meaning "how is your spirit?". Is that correct or is my memory failing me (highly likely)?
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Is it possible you mean hwyl? As per this BBC Welsh lesson
quote:
'Hwyl' has a variety of meanings in Welsh. Some of the most common are these:
'Hwyl' meaning the sail of a ship; 'hwyl' - meaning fun; 'hwyl' meaning good bye or good luck. But 'hwyl' can also refer to a person's physical or mental condition. So 'Sut hwyl oedd arno fe?' means literally: 'What kind of a mood was on him?', in other words 'How was he?' Sometimes the plural 'hwyliau' is used instead of the singular 'hwyl'. 'Sut hwyliau oedd arno fe?' So, instead of the usual 'Bore da' on a Monday morning, why not impress your friends by asking: 'Sut hwyl sydd arnat ti y bore yma?'
It's fairly common just to hear people say "hwyl" - as a cheery "bye".
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arse
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I thought hwyl was linked to preaching; the eloquence that overtakes a gifted preacher as the Spirit falls. (Or an excuse for Welsh long-windedness.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Sounds more like Awen, the Bardic inspiration.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I can't remember if I said this before - but it seems like there are various levels of Welsh. Partly this is about formality and the difference between what is taught and what is actually spoken. There seem to be differences even between what the Adult Education classes teach and what the schools teach in Welsh classes.
And then there is another layer of differences depending on the age of the person talking.
And another about the local dialect - not just North-South and East-West Wales but even between the way it is spoken in Newport/Cardiff (where there are generally few speakers) and places where there are many more and it is a dynamic every-day language. It is also quite noticeable that the majority of Welsh teachers in the South-east are from North Wales.
It seems to me that this is not easily mapped onto English variations - which obviously have many differences in terms of spoken language but generally speaking has an accepted written form.
Anyway, this makes teaching the language for those who want to be able to converse in it quite challenging. For example we've been learning the shortened form of the future tense recently, although we've also heard from various fluent speakers who say that they never use it and some who say that they don't even recognise the words!
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yeah, there does seem to be quite a variety of ways of saying anything, and as you say, some ways are never used by speakers from some areas. You'd not hear 'mi ddaru i fynd' for 'I went' in Swansea, and you'd not hear "sa i" for "I am not" in Caernarfon. Then there's the conditional, where you can use buas-, bas- or bydd- as the stem... Something as simple as "we got" - caethon? Cawson?
The move these days is to teach the local dialect. This is more difficult, of course, if the teacher is from the other end of the country. In usage all you can do is be guided by local speakers, but there aren't many of those in deepest Swydd Derby (more than you'd think though!) and those there are come from all over, so I just settled on the Gwynedd dialect as that's the part of Wales I'm most inclined to visit.
Inflected ("short form") future - confess I take refuge in the periphrastic form using bydd- the big variation (outside of the small number of high frequency irregular verbs like Cael, gwneud, mynd, dod) is in the 3rd sing - can end in -th or -ff depending where you are.
For a language covering a small geographical area (an important one; for the media the Wales is the standard unit of area) it's insanely varied, dw i'n meddwl. Or Rwy'n meddwl. Or wi'n meddwl, or fi'n meddwl, or Rydw i'n meddwl, or Yr wyf yn meddwl, or Yr ydwyf yn meddwl. I think.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
(As an illustration for any layman who may have wondered in, those last variations are to illustrate the point about how there are variations in formality and dialect)
dw i'n meddwl - commmon spoken form, certainly the norm in the North
Rwy'n meddwl - spoken form more associated with the South.
wi'n meddwl, - more informal southern form
fi'n meddwl, - very informal southern form
Rydw i'n meddwl - Cymraeg Byw - an attempt in the 60s-70s to create a single colloquial form but which no-one speaks and sounds stilted. Might be met in writing where the above forms seem too informal but the following forms seem a bit like the KJV
Yr wyf yn meddwl - formal, literary; you'd sound as preposterous using it in speech as you would walking around Croydon speaking Shakespearean English.
Yr ydwyf yn meddwl - as above, just has the now meaningless particle yd- included, just because.
They all mean "I think" or "I am thinking".
[ 08. November 2017, 09:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Inflected ("short form") future - confess I take refuge in the periphrastic form using bydd- the big variation (outside of the small number of high frequency irregular verbs like Cael, gwneud, mynd, dod) is in the 3rd sing - can end in -th or -ff depending where you are.
Ah I didn't know that.
The main problem with the shortened form is establishing the stem, which isn't always easy.
It feels easier to say
Byddiff e'n.. (he will be) rather than [verb-stem]-ff e'n (he will do x), particularly when there are complications about which way to mutate for the question and negative and how to use "o" - as in ohono i.
That's hard to translate, but means "of" me/you/he/she/it and you use it in the negative.
Only apparently some people don't use it at all. Go figure.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Bydd doesn't use either ending for third sing, just to be confusing. It's just bydd.
[ 08. November 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Yeah, mo (from dim o) instead of plain dim to negate inflected verbs is a mare. Welais i ddim fo - nope, you've got to say Welais i mohono....
Or, just cheat - "Nes i ddim ei weld o...."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Bydd doesn't use either ending for third sing, just to be confusing. It's just bydd.
Oops sorry it didn't feel correct when I was typing..
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arse
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Jammy Dodger
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# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is it possible you mean hwyl? As per this BBC Welsh lesson
quote:
'Hwyl' has a variety of meanings in Welsh. Some of the most common are these:
'Hwyl' meaning the sail of a ship; 'hwyl' - meaning fun; 'hwyl' meaning good bye or good luck. But 'hwyl' can also refer to a person's physical or mental condition. So 'Sut hwyl oedd arno fe?' means literally: 'What kind of a mood was on him?', in other words 'How was he?' Sometimes the plural 'hwyliau' is used instead of the singular 'hwyl'. 'Sut hwyliau oedd arno fe?' So, instead of the usual 'Bore da' on a Monday morning, why not impress your friends by asking: 'Sut hwyl sydd arnat ti y bore yma?'
It's fairly common just to hear people say "hwyl" - as a cheery "bye".
Cool thanks.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
Welsh is by no means the only language with very wide dialectal variations, and a 'literary' language which sits more-or-less outside or above them, though admittedly in a smaller geographical space than many others. But then, Wales is much bigger than it looks!
In German, for instance, Hochdeutsch (='High Geman') is almost as far removed from some common dialects, such as the everyday German of parts of Switzerland, as English is.
And don't get me started on the many variations of Arabic, and their complex relationship to the Arabic of the Koran.
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Adrian Plass
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St. Gwladys
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# 14504
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Posted
As Gren said,, if Wales were flattened out, it would be much bigger than England!
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Got another question: how offensive (or not) is twp (daft, stupid) - it's regularly used within my (English-speaking) family in a manner that I would definitely characterise as gentle banter not being nasty. Is it one of those things that is now politically incorrect to use or is it still in common parlance?
Asking for a friend
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Got another question: how offensive (or not) is twp (daft, stupid) - it's regularly used within my (English-speaking) family in a manner that I would definitely characterise as gentle banter not being nasty. Is it one of those things that is now politically incorrect to use or is it still in common parlance?
Asking for a friend
I don't think I'd use the word to a work colleague, I must say; but it's fine in family banter. 'Daft' or 'thick' probably convey the current meaning best in English.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
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