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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
According to the the Guardian Wycliffe Hall is in real trouble. The division would seem to between between open evangelicals and the conservatives. I always thought Wycliff had been quite conservative anyway but obviously I am wrong.
quote:
The discontent at Wycliffe Hall, an evangelical Anglican college which is part of Oxford University, has seen several resignations among its small academic staff and claims that one of its most prominent members, the regular Thought for the Day contributor Elaine Storkey, was threatened with disciplinary action.
The college has been accused of becoming more theologically conservative, more hostile to women's ordination and more homophobic since the appointment of its principal, Richard Turnbull, a vicar from Basingstoke and a former accountant without senior academic managerial experience, two years ago
and
quote:
"The staff were initially shocked and then outraged at this outrageous attempt to intimidate Storkey into submission, which has backfired totally. Every member of the entire teaching staff except one wrote to the governing body complaining of intimidation and demanding a meeting with them to air their concerns. This was turned down. James Jones [the Bishop of Liverpool and the chair of the college's governing council] made it clear he would back Turnbull whatever he did."
This would seem to be a disaster for Evangelicals in general and result of a bad appointment.
[ 09. October 2009, 18:52: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It strikes me as odd that someone would take a position as principal of a college who was not in reasonable agreement with the theological basis of the place. But then, some people take jobs for the wrong reasons.
Wycliffe is probably more conservative than some others, but still with intellectual integrity. It sounds like Richard Turnball did not appreciate what working in an academic environment meant.
And james Jones is being stupid if he made a statement that he would back Turnball whatever. His job is to support the principal, but also act as an independant check - therefore not to back him whatever.
Sack him and make Dr Storkey principal.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
Jeez this is starting to get interesting.
RR
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I'm at Wycliffe.
Essentially the piece in the press is a badly done hatchet job with several major factual innaccuracies and a limited kernel of truth.
The mood of students I've spoken to thus far is really not happy about or in agreement with the article at all.
[ 16. May 2007, 11:09: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fermat
Shipmate
# 4894
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Posted
So what is happening, Custard? ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for you all.
Posts: 1008 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I am sure I read that one or two members of the staff were moving to other places and now we know why.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
If the BBC sends someone to investigate will he be followed around by the Office for Special Affairs and yelled at by thuggish looking bearded men? Probably not. I guess the news will out in the long run.
RR
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Essentially the piece in the press is a badly done hatchet job with several major factual innaccuracies and a limited kernel of truth.
So a fairly standard Guardian report involving Christianity, then.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Rasberry Rabbit:
quote:
If the BBC sends someone to investigate will he be followed around by the Office for Special Affairs and yelled at by thuggish looking bearded men? Probably not. I guess the news will out in the long run.
Clearly a job for The Sweeney.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
As far as Oxford University is concerned its interest will not be with Wycliffe Hall as a theological college but with its position as a Permanent Private Hall. I.e. it won't be concerned with the process by which a member of Wycliffe Hall becomes an ordinand, but it will be with any member who is matriculated as a member of the University and is pursuing an Oxford degree.
It will be this aspect of a PPH that the University review will be looking at. (There are 7 PPHs in all, 4 Roman Catholic, Wycliffe, St Stephen's House and Regent's Park which I think was a baptist foundation but is probably now the least denominational of them.)
Here are the University Regulations that apply specifically to PPHs. One of requirements is that quote:
the Master shall provide courses of instruction for the undergraduate members of the hall during at least twenty-four weeks in the academic year
which may be potentially difficult if the report is right about the number of staff who have left. Ultimately Wycliffe Hall's licence as a Permanent Private Hall could be suspended.
[Cor, my 800th post.]
[ 16. May 2007, 12:22: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
There's an official statement coming out some time in the next couple of days. It's better if I don't comment further on the situation until then.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Well if nothing else the other evangelical colleges may do well out of this news report as students opt to go somewhere else.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I assume that one or two are leaving over this issue and others may want to leave but can't get the jobs they want.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
My previous post now makes no sense.
Custard has deleted a post that denied that half the staff were leaving.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Regnets (where I was officially ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )is both a private hall *AND* a normal college. In effect it is a normal college, albeit a small one, with normal (ie christian and non christian!) students with a small number or ordinands (ministerials) tagged on the side.
I more or less lived in wycliffe though when i was at uni as i was engaged to one of the students. I remember when I was there there was some tnesion between the groups, but there were plenty of women ordinands and I think the feel there for my first two years was more "open evnagelical" although a sizeable minority of "reform" students were there that wasnt the general feel. By my third year there were a lot of HTB ordinands and there was a distinctly more evo/charismatic feel.
I think the feel does change with the intake. The scholars that were there were from a variety of perspectives and certainly not as conservative as Oak Hill.
I really rather like Elaine Storkey and so will be interested to hear whats been going on.
(disclaimer - obviously subjective student experience!)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
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Posted
As far as I can tell only the Guardian has published this story. Maybe this should tell us a bit about the Guardian's slant on things.
I also wonder who told the Guardian about this in the first place.
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If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Church press have also got it.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Church press have also got it.
Link Pete? Or is it just that you are getting contacted about it?
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
The latter.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
This affair has the smell of recent purges in Southern Baptist academic establishments, including Baylor University, by fundamentalists. See the reminiscences, particularly his section "death of a seminary," of a seminarian at the time who later converted to eastern orthodoxy:
From First Baptist to the First Century (I was tempted to write, "fist century").
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
I can't see what there is to be inaccurate in the article - it almost all either direct quotes or statements about what has happened.
There are two ways that bias affects newspaper reporting. The first is how they report the things they do report. That's easy to smell. The second is what they don't report, and that's a lot harder to spot.
For all we know, they may have left out some extra piece of info that exonerates everyone and makes the story a lot less interesting.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
For all we know, they may have left out some extra piece of info that exonerates everyone and makes the story a lot less interesting.
Such as?
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
All those people withdrew their resignations?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
A comment not about Wycliffe, but about the article.
Most of the substance of it is actually reporting a document said to be "circulating among staff", of unknown provenance and saying stuff which you'd think the staff would have already know if it had been true.
I suspect the existence of the document (if it exists) is closely linked to the existence of this story...
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I suspect the existence of the document (if it exists) is closely linked to the existence of this story...
And the point of the obvious statement is?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Custard:
quote:
There's an official statement coming out some time in the next couple of days. It's better if I don't comment further on the situation until then.
I think we ought to wait until then to pass judgement. It's not unknown for the press to get stuff wrong.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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BIg Carp
Apprentice
# 12635
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Posted
this is another example of the conservative evangelical wing of the church bullying the central evengelical and charismatic evangelical christians. People like David Wenham are modern day saints, they don't resign over nothing. For people like that to leave they must have been treated terribly...they can't all be making it up...as some have suggested here...we are talking about people with serious integrity leaving posts that they have held for tens of years...
Posts: 8 | Registered: May 2007
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Yes I had read or heard that David Wenham and in effect taken a demotion by going to another college and now we know why.
[ 16. May 2007, 18:18: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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BIg Carp
Apprentice
# 12635
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Posted
It's not just David either, Geoff Maughn is another legend who has left, as is Philip Johnson, and even Alistair McGrath has stepped down from the OCA. These are some of the best people in theological education...and who is wycliffe going to replace the with? surely they don't just happen to have a host of such awesome talent and Goldliness tucked away in James Jones's desk draw...
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Gosh it wont be the wycliffe I remember. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Geoff really was really really amazing - really taught me a lot just by him being him and the embodiment of such a wonderful person, and David Wenham was *so* my favourite ever tutor (I think I mentioned that before elsewhere) I cant believe it. What on earth happened??????? CAn wycliffe really lose so many of its key people that make it run?? Will it lose its Oxford accreditation/ its credibility? David really taught me so so so much about doing theology accademically. Where is it hes gone to? I cant believe Wycliffe isnt "wycliffe" anymore
Im nto sure I understand the ALister bit - what is OCA? I didnt think he was involved in wycliffe since doing the other institute thing?
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BIg Carp:
and even Alistair McGrath has stepped down from the OCA.
Another person wondering what OCA is...
I must say that it seemed a terrible idea to me at the time for McGrath to step down as principal but carry on hanging around Wycliffe. I thought it would have made things terribly difficult for the new principal.
With hindsight, I wonder if that was part of the problem (this new guy behaving like a Rottweiler out of a perceived need to strongly mark his territory given the old α-male was still hanging around?); or whether McGrath knew who was coming and thought they needed his help. (Or both, of course).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
OCCA seems to be a separate but related organisation to Wycliffe.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
Having finally got round to reading the Guardian article I did notice one piece of fantastic journalism:
"Dr Storkey, who is on sabbatical, refused to comment, saying only: 'There is some substance to that.'"
How can someone who refused to comment give a comment? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
I do wonder what we'd find to talk about on the ship if we ever took all those NT prohibitions of gossip seriously. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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molehill
Apprentice
# 12285
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Posted
Can we start a new movement of 'Elaine for Principal' - that would cheer things up considerably
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Ohh what a fantastic idea - she would be amazing.
Minor problem though if everyone else *has* already left/resigned...
(again not knowing at all whats goinon ust from this thread!)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I can't see bishops encouraging people to go to Wycliffe this year. I wonder if this would affect it's finances.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Archimandrite
Shipmate
# 3997
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Posted
The University's task force on Permanent Private Halls (the PPH Review Panel), headed by Sir Colin Lucas, the previous Vice-Chancellor, may well have things to say about these developents, and these in turn might affect such institutions as S Stephen's House.
Having said that, if Father Turnbull* has a vision for the sort of education he wants to provide to his students, which, as the Master of a PPH he is entirely entitled to have, then what's the problem with that per se?
*I'm sure he would dislike being referred to as such. But hey.
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"Loyal Anglican" (Warning: General Synod may differ).
Posts: 1580 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jan 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Archimandrite:
The University's task force on Permanent Private Halls (the PPH Review Panel), headed by Sir Colin Lucas, the previous Vice-Chancellor, may well have things to say about these developents, and these in turn might affect such institutions as S Stephen's House..
The Staggers staff seemed vigorous and reasonably happy last time I looked. I'm not sure I see how trouble at one PPH would affect the institution of PPHs in general.
ETA: Nor can I see Bishops who were planning to send ordinands to Wycliffe sending them to Staggers instead!
[ 17. May 2007, 05:42: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
With hindsight, I wonder if that was part of the problem (this new guy behaving like a Rottweiler out of a perceived need to strongly mark his territory given the old α-male was still hanging around?); or whether McGrath knew who was coming and thought they needed his help. (Or both, of course).
Of the two, I'd go with the latter. Turnbull is:
a) Not equipped or qualified to be a principal of a theological college. He might be able to bore for England on pensions but theologically he's a couple of aces short of a full pack.
b) A remarkably self-opinionated man (some would say arrogant) who has no time for anyone who doesn't agree with his views.
Put the two together and you get someone who isn't up to the mark in dealing with genuine theological academics and whose first instinct is to bully people into submission to his ways. So it's no great surprise that things have gone sour at Wycliffe.
The other thing people should know about him is that when he was a curate in the 90's he made headlines in the national newspapers by refusing to baptise the baby of an unmarried couple because he deemed that they "weren't taking it seriously enough".
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
With hindsight, I wonder if that was part of the problem (this new guy behaving like a Rottweiler out of a perceived need to strongly mark his territory given the old α-male was still hanging around?); or whether McGrath knew who was coming and thought they needed his help. (Or both, of course).
Of the two, I'd go with the latter. Turnbull is:
a) Not equipped or qualified to be a principal of a theological college. He might be able to bore for England on pensions but theologically he's a couple of aces short of a full pack.
b) A remarkably self-opinionated man (some would say arrogant) who has no time for anyone who doesn't agree with his views.
Put the two together and you get someone who isn't up to the mark in dealing with genuine theological academics and whose first instinct is to bully people into submission to his ways. So it's no great surprise that things have gone sour at Wycliffe.
Who appointed him???????
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Fermat
Shipmate
# 4894
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Posted
Presumably the Wycliffe Council? I'm not entirely sure how it works - do theological college principal appointments have to be approved by anyone? (i.e. MinDiv or the Crown Appointments Committee?)
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Each college has its own system of governance as they are all independant (ie the Cof E does not own or control them centrally). No two colleges have exactly the same system.
Who has the power to appoint staff is a key question in each college.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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BIg Carp
Apprentice
# 12635
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Posted
Stokey for principal, storkey for principal....I can see it now...what a vision of wycliffe heaven ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
Why was someone with apparantly few qualifications for the post appointed as Principal? There must have been a reason. What was the agenda of the people who appointed him? The whole thing appears very odd.
G
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Maybe they needed his accountancy and management background, and felt that that and his experience in C of E affairs nationally would be useful in the current climate of change in C of E theological education following the Hind Report (q.v.).
He does not have a background in the academic world but perhaps they thought his CV showed adequate academic credentials for a Principal whose main role lay elsewhere than teaching.
If his ability to manage interpersonal relationships is part of the issue ('If'), that may be something which it was difficult to get a good picture of through references and interview process. With some people their way of relating to others varies considerably depending on their perception of their authority in any given situation. It seems very unlikely that there was any direct evidence to go on to assess his ability in leading an academic institution (herding cats?) or helping it through a time of change.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
I can't see bishops encouraging people to go to Wycliffe this year.
I seem to recall that on one of the threads generated by +Southwark's activity, one of the many complaints levelled against him was that he discouraged ordinands to study at either Oak Hill and Wycliffe. Oak Hill of course, I thought, but why Wycliffe. Clearly one of those instances where Southwark leads the rest of the Church of England.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I'm only saying here what is already in the public domain. I don't want to wash my own or anyone else's dirty laundry in public.
Richard Turnbull is:
- a Northerner who says what he thinks and means what he says
- a minister with a lot more experience of leading churches than any other theological college prinicipal in the C of E
- a Christian who is passionately concerned for the raising up and equipping of godly men and women to lead churches, which is, after all, what Wycliffe Hall is about
- an evangelical who has avoided joining any of the three main political groupings and is keen to work with all of them, while keeping his historic evangelical commitment to the importance of preaching
- appointed by the Hall Council with the specific instructions of strengthening the practical ministerial formation side of college while keeping the academic strength
When Richard arrived, Wycliffe was:
- claiming to represent the breadth of evangelical tradition, but if you looked at it there were a lot of staff in Fulcrum, a few in New Wine and none in Reform. The college council I'd guess has roughly equal numbers associated with each and is chaired by +Liverpool, who is pretty much "open evangelical".
- doing well as a place of academic theology, but with a poor reputation among many evangelicals because of the lack of emphasis on the more practical side of ministry, particularly in terms of preaching (and remember that preaching Christ is seen in evangelical circles as the heart of what ministry is about)
Richard has appointed two new full-time members of staff thus far, of whom one is a member of Reform and one of New Wine. That is the first member of staff to be in Reform, and there are still two Fulcrum council members on staff. Hardly a conservative takeover.
Since he arrived, numbers have changed from falling short of the quota (which they did under McGrath) to exceeding an increased quota. We were full for 2007 admissions by February and are already filling up for 2008.
I think pretty much everyone here is hurting as a result of the articles. Please keep praying for us.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
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