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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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Peter Owen
Shipmate
# 134
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Posted
What you've all been waiting for:
Inspection Reports for Wycliffe Hall [and St Stephen's House].
[ 17. March 2009, 11:42: Message edited by: Peter Owen ]
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Πετρος
Posts: 266 | From: overlooking Liverpool Bay | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Not much blood on the carpet.
The report from Staggers was much more interesting.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
But it does seem a bit worrying that the inspectors have no confidence in the teaching of practical and pastoral theology - surely one of the more important aspects of training to work in parish ministry. Unless of course you are training for something else entirely.
Don't forget this report is from the Ministry Division of the CofE who are responsible for deciding what is taught and how resources are deployed.
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
Actually, what I was taught in practical and pastoral theology - which was strongly of the Dr Graham (one of the inspectors) school - has been of very little use in real life so far. It may in the long term prove to be a useful skill, but I find reflective practice a luxury when I'm so ill prepared for the day to day realities of ministry.
I'd have very happily had a lot less experiential theology and a lot more practical input on how to do things.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Fool on Hill
Shipmate
# 12183
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Posted
Actually there is some excellent material in the field of practical/pastoral theology from an evangelical perspective, in theological reflection and in theologically informed action - and this is definitely true in some areas which are the subject of direct criticism.
My own experience is that good grounding in theological reflection has fostered theologically informed action, rather than a purely pragmatic response; and that each experience of my early years in ministry became hugely more valuable in deepening my theological understanding of the world - not what I was taught, so much as how I was encouraged to learn.
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God appointed a worm that attacked the bush so that it withered.
Posts: 171 | From: Berkshire | Registered: Dec 2006
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
My gosh..does someone have to drive a stake through the heart of this thread on an altar under a full moon or something?
Why will this thread not die?!! It's nearly 2 years old!
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
My gosh..does someone have to drive a stake through the heart of this thread on an altar under a full moon or something?
Why will this thread not die?!! It's nearly 2 years old!
Because people keep posting on it.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
I was surprised to see Wycliff criticised for the lack of biblical material in corperate worship!
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It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I wasn't. It has become a characteristic of modern evangelical Anglicanism.
It is the opposite to 40 years ago when evangelicals followed the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer so had great chunks of scripture whilst anglo-catholics did BCP Holy Communion with little scripture.
Now the former have many more worship songs while the latter follow the RCL's 3 readings plus a psalm.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
My gosh..does someone have to drive a stake through the heart of this thread on an altar under a full moon or something?
Why will this thread not die?!! It's nearly 2 years old!
You don't have to click on it. Some people are interested in the ongoing developments.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Fool on Hill
Shipmate
# 12183
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wasn't. It has become a characteristic of modern evangelical Anglicanism.
It is the opposite to 40 years ago when evangelicals followed the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer so had great chunks of scripture whilst anglo-catholics did BCP Holy Communion with little scripture.
Now the former have many more worship songs while the latter follow the RCL's 3 readings plus a psalm.
I went to a local free evangelical church recently, and they didn't have a single reading from scripture as part of the service - and updated versions of 'God Is My Boyfriend' to sing. But scripture finds its place in other places for the committed, and God is not allowed to be your boyfriend if you are a man.
But for those who see Cranmer's legacy as significant - the "Protestant Reformed Church of England" - a failure to see scripture as a major and central part of worship, when Cranmer saw it as so central - is a bad misreading of history.
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God appointed a worm that attacked the bush so that it withered.
Posts: 171 | From: Berkshire | Registered: Dec 2006
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
My gosh..does someone have to drive a stake through the heart of this thread on an altar under a full moon or something?
Why will this thread not die?!! It's nearly 2 years old!
As Arrietty and Moo have said, because people are interested in it. And because the neither the world (nor the ship) revolves around you sunny jim.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wasn't. It has become a characteristic of modern evangelical Anglicanism.
It is the opposite to 40 years ago when evangelicals followed the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer so had great chunks of scripture whilst anglo-catholics did BCP Holy Communion with little scripture.
Now the former have many more worship songs while the latter follow the RCL's 3 readings plus a psalm.
I went to a local free evangelical church recently, and they didn't have a single reading from scripture as part of the service - and updated versions of 'God Is My Boyfriend' to sing. But scripture finds its place in other places for the committed, and God is not allowed to be your boyfriend if you are a man.
But for those who see Cranmer's legacy as significant - the "Protestant Reformed Church of England" - a failure to see scripture as a major and central part of worship, when Cranmer saw it as so central - is a bad misreading of history.
Evangelical- only without the Gospel? Contradiction in terms, surely- especially if they're the kind who then complain that the rest of us pick and choose in our use of Scripture.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Many evangelical churches will only have one reading in each service, and work their way through a book in sequence. They also don't use the psalms often, nor the canticles. You get much more scripture in catholic churches. I miss it.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
My gosh..does someone have to drive a stake through the heart of this thread on an altar under a full moon or something?
Why will this thread not die?!! It's nearly 2 years old!
You don't have to click on it. Some people are interested in the ongoing developments.
Moo
Yes, we are. I plead guilty to an intense dislike of what I know about its principal so I suppose I am hoping something dramatic will happen.
However, in my better moments, I have a genuine interest in theological training and believe that catholics like me have a lot to gain from the evangelical tradition and are sorry that it is failing to deliver on some fronts.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Many evangelical churches will only have one reading in each service, and work their way through a book in sequence. They also don't use the psalms often, nor the canticles. You get much more scripture in catholic churches. I miss it.
I miss the reading and Bible exposition that we used to have. I get frustrated at the readings, very short, and mixed, and then not always a real sermon including them. And churches in Edinburgh used to have one book reading on Sunday mornings, another Sunday evenings and another mid-week - so we were "studying" NT, OT a lot.
I don't feel/think I'm getting that teaching/learning I used to, even though I do a bit of studying by myself and in our house-group.
I did have some excellent trainers/teachers when I was a student, not in theological college though. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Many evangelical churches will only have one reading in each service, and work their way through a book in sequence. They also don't use the psalms often, nor the canticles. You get much more scripture in catholic churches. I miss it.
This is probably a tangent but makes for an interesting question - which service of worship contains more scripture: one which reads a chapter from the Bible and then spends 30 minutes working through it or one that reads 3 portions of scripture and spends 8 minutes thinking about one or none of them?
My suspicion is that the answer is either one ton of feathers, or neither.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
In my experience of C of E churches it depends on whether you prefer:
no lectionary, one reading and a long expository sermon
lectionary, several readings and a very short non-expository sermon (which will be dire at least 50% of time in the average parish church....sorry ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ).
I'd probably go for the first if I absolutely had to choose.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Would it not be better to have at least 2 readings (as Common Worship requires for all services - even All Age and Fresh Extressions ones) and a good sermon one one of the readings? My experience is that this is not uncommon, though YMMV. (Except for the evangelical churches I sometimes find myself in that have no Bible reading at all ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
But back to the inspection report: the point thay are making is about the daily office immersing ordinands in scripture - this is missing at WH (they say). While this fact may have congruence with some contemporary trends in evangelical public worship, it is a point about formation thay are making.
There is then a link with other comments they make about what WH is doing - is it formation for Christian ministry or training in a particular model of leadership?
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
While this fact may have congruence with some contemporary trends in evangelical public worship, it is a point about formation thay are making.
There is then a link with other comments they make about what WH is doing - is it formation for Christian ministry or training in a particular model of leadership?
Fair point.
This is not a good trend IMHO and rightly picked up by the inspectors.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
It's worth saying (as one of the current Wycliffe students who are on board here) that I think the report is pretty fair. There are a couple of other criticisms I'd have made, and a couple of strong points I'd have picked up on that didn't get mentioned, but in general it seems to reflect reality.
The Bible in chapel thing does get on my nerves a little - we use an internal college lectionary (which is meant to work on a 3 year cycle). Officially it gives one or two Psalms a week, about a chapter of a gospel / epistle a week and about 2 chapters of OT. In reality, people often end up just reading and preaching from the NT. When it was my group's turn to do chapel, I strongly argued we should cover all the allocated passages, and ended up preaching for 10 mins on a chapter and a half of Isaiah. Good fun.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Here's the response of the Wycliffe Senior Management Team, copied from here.
quote:
Wycliffe Hall welcomes the Bishops’ Inspection report arising out of a thorough week of inspection in November 2008. We are encouraged that they found that ‘the Hall displays a rich mosaic of evangelical traditions,’ commend the clarity of our ‘common purpose that unites staff and students,’ and affirm our aims and purposes in ‘preaching, teaching, pastoral care and evangelism.’ We also agree with them that significant goodwill exists within the Faculty of Theology of the University of Oxford; that the academic, administrative and support staff work together well with a sense of corporate direction.
Commendation is made of the good academic results achieved by Wycliffe students and corporate and communal life in the Hall is observed to be healthy. The Inspectors point out that Wycliffe has gone through a period of major restructuring including significant staff change. Whilst they acknowledge that adjustments and rebuilding needs to continue to happen, we are pleased that they feel that the structures are in place for Wycliffe to go from strength to strength.
We rejoice in the fact that the Inspectors have stated their full confidence in Wycliffe’s ‘ministerial and spiritual formation’. We are grateful for the affirmation of our revised programme of Integrated Study Weeks and Focus Days as ‘excellent expressions of best practice and as effective means of integrating theology and practice.’ For many years Wycliffe has sought to give significant attention to the formational aspects of training alongside academic development and practical ministry skills. In the area of ‘practical and pastoral theology’, we look forward to working on the recommendations for greater theological and pastoral reflection deploying the ‘collective expertise’ recognised by the Inspectors as already present in the staff team. As new staff become established and continue with the development of this department we anticipate much progress in this area. Wycliffe is also grateful for the many additional and positive recommendations which we shall be working hard to ensure are implemented over the short and mid term.
[ 19. March 2009, 13:25: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Expository preaching when taken as a real discipline is far from easy. Actually my experience suggest it normally has two or three readings but one is main and the other two are supplementary. The snag is that basically for your main text you take a book at the time (I am not sure some of the OT books are not subdivided) and you alternate OT and NT books.
I would suggest for any serious person doing it, you try and get through a gospel, one or more letters and at least two OT books in a year. You are probably preaching on more than a chapter a week for your main reading and you read every single part of it. The supplementaries are chosen to illuminate the main passage. It helps to have morning and evening services if you are taking this approach.
Oh and your take each book in turn(you may have seperate rotas for OT, Gospel and Epistle but some people don't) . So you may chose Isaiah as your first OT book but before you can preach on it a second time you need to have preached on Leviticus.
It is not the evangelical approach of pick a text to illustrate your message.
Jengie
[ 19. March 2009, 13:38: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Having read the report I think it seems to me that the report avoided the elephant in the corner. 'Why was the change management so amazingly bad?' (para 42) I have sympathy for this approach since it focused on out comes now as opposed the past and this is what is important for the church. Yet Synod did ask ministry division to look at the past so it look likes the report failed on this one.
On the whole it reads to me, that the change the college has experienced has improved some aspects of it's life but on balance it's education and preparation for Ordination is not as good as pre-Turnbull but it does show hope for the future. I think the most amusing recommendations are about management. Turnbull was employed to be a good manager as opposed to a theologian and so it begs the question why was he employed by the college.
I noticed there has been a slight fall in numbers from 2007 to now yet it is not that significant and I am certain it will pick up eventually. I would have thought that there would be more than 9 women.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
On the women - the women here are quite clear that the only reason there aren't more of them is the negative press coverage. As I said right at the start of this, the women stuff and the homosexual stuff are complete red herrings. There are quite a few women here who aren't training for ordination, but still not enough to get it anywhere near even numbers.
Nightlamp - I think I disagree that the report missed the elephant in the room. True, they didn't look at exactly what happened in the past, but have you seen recommendations 4, 6 and 7?
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Having read the report, I think it's a shame that the board of inspectors seem to find it impossible to write a clear, lucid report, especially in regard to the use of the comma as an aid to comprehension.
From the report, section H.ii comes this particulary ugly sentence
quote:
Principles concerning what is included in pre-ordination/authorisation training and left to post-ordination/authorisation traning should be available and consonant with any denominational requrements.
Now I know what they mean, but surely they could have expressed themselves with a little more elegance.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
On the women - the women here are quite clear that the only reason there aren't more of them is the negative press coverage.
Or accurate press coverage of the way they treat female employees and the fact the college appointed a man to teach preaching who doesn't think women should preach.
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Nightlamp - I think I disagree that the report missed the elephant in the room. True, they didn't look at exactly what happened in the past, but have you seen recommendations 4, 6 and 7?
I have indeed looked at those recommendations they are about the current inadequate management of the Hall but they still didn't do what Synod asked them to do. They glanced at the elephant but didn't deal with it. Issues how the principal was chosen, internal HR issues, lack of accountability for significant errors of judgement. What did the Trustees do to rescue the situation? Why did one of the trustees feel they were marginalised? How did a 'group think' situation arrive and how to prevent it from happening again.
Maybe dealing with those issues is pointless but it seemed to me that was what Synod wanted.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Or accurate press coverage of the way they treat female employees and the fact the college appointed a man to teach preaching who doesn't think women should preach.
To be fair, the issue is more the way that they treated two of their female employees (and some of their male ones) than the way they treat female employees in general. And given the fact that it was some employees of both genders who seem to have been thus treated, and not all the ordained women on staff were thus treated, it seems that whatever caused the treatment wasn't directly gender-related.
What it looks like to me is that they asked the question "How can we stop this from happening again?" and came up with some recommendations based on what they learned about the past and present situations.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It isn't the quantity of Scripture in a service that makes it a good service, it's the quality of the teaching.
An evangelical church will usually have a passage of DScripture that the preacher will speak about - obviously that is 2 thirds less Scripture than a lectionary-driven service.
But then you have to remember that most evangelical churches will have house groups or a church Bible Study where Scripture will be pored over, read round the room, discussed, compared, talked about.
Simply having three tenuously connected readings read out on Sunday morning, often with no explanation, doesn't necessarily mean a greater engagement with what God is saying.
I do find it strange however that an evangelical service would have no Bible reading at all - maybe they forgot.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
What it looks like to me is that they asked the question "How can we stop this from happening again?" and came up with some recommendations based on what they learned about the past and present situations.
They failed to ask though to ask 'Why did this happen? and Why did the college react this way?' which means the recoomendations seem lacking.
On the issue of the lack of female ordinands it is likely to be a mixture of prior history and declared theological view points. The history cannot be changed but until the person teaching preaching changes his theology or he is changed then there will always be problems with the number of female ordinands.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I do find it strange however that an evangelical service would have no Bible reading at all - maybe they forgot.
I don't - pone such place near me NEVER has readings from scripture. One of the pastors preaches and illustrates his theme with texts which are displayed on Powerpoint - usually just proof texts.
I agree that 3 lectionary readings don't necessarily achieve much but I think it is good that we hear a reading which challenges, provokes, annoys and/or encourages us. I believe we should engage with text 'in the raw' and not just engage with what the preacher chooses to engage with.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
There are a million and one reasons why I don't worship in an evangelical church, but IME evangelical congos do engage with scripture more than non-evangelical ones. As Mudfrog points out they usually have a strong tradition of individual and group study, and one passage plus a decent twenty to thirty minute expository sermon is more use than three passages with no decent exposition at all.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
The p[oint in the report is about daily offices - not Sunday services. The idea is the be immersed in scripture. Snippets will not do it.
As for Sunday resadings - what is so difficult about doing what the CofE requires and just reasding a significant chunk of scripture each service? As the Principal of a well-know college said at NEAC5 "I can't understand how evangelicals could possibly disagree with it".
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
The p[oint in the report is about daily offices - not Sunday services. The idea is the be immersed in scripture. Snippets will not do it.
I was amazed that they only had 4 corporate services a week (three morning services and a Holy Communion). I'm not surprised that it has been recommended that they introduce Evening Prayer too.
Given it is still a requirement for Anglican clergy to say the daily offices (preferably in church after the tolling of the bell), surely this habit should be inculcated during theological college. And using the same lectionary as the rest of the church strikes me as a good plan.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
When I was nearby, Cranmer Hall had Morning Prayer four mornings a week, with morning prayers (in groups) on the Friday morning. This was compulsory.
There were evening prayers each weekday evening but I don't think this was necessarily Evening Prayer. I only went very occasionally and I can't remember a congregation bigger than four.
The College Communion was on a Tuesday evening and was obligatory - as was the service on a Thursday evening, I think. (I can't remember if the latter was always a Methodist service or if it was simply that I only went on Methodist weeks.)
Each weekday had an optional Holy Communion at 7.20am and congregations were sometimes as large as 10.
I seem to recall that a lunchtime communion happened on one day in the week too; I can't remember if that was established or new. Again, there was one occasion with about ten or so.
With regard to the office lectionary, it wasn't the standard one but it wasn't unique to Cranmer. Charles Read will remember better than me what it was, I'm sure.
Thurible
[ 23. March 2009, 16:07: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Superslug
Shipmate
# 7024
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Posted
I was once told by a certain ++ that one of the main advantages of college over courses for ordinand training was the communal daily office and how this instilled a discipline which would be vital in ministry.
I disagreed, pointing out that in college it would be dead easy to attend the daily office because it was laid on for you and all your fellow students would be there, but for those ordinands training on regional courses, the discipline required to say the office daily, when there was no one but you and God watching, was far superior and much more akin to life in the real world of ministry.
What will happen to those who can't make prayers when they are in college, with fellow students and staff watching, when in ministry they will often be left to their own devices?
SS
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I was 'educated' in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. Therefore, please feel free to correct my grammar and punctuation. I need to know!
Posts: 464 | From: Hessle, East Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Superslug:
I was once told by a certain ++ that one of the main advantages of college over courses for ordinand training was the communal daily office and how this instilled a discipline which would be vital in ministry.
I disagreed, pointing out that in college it would be dead easy to attend the daily office because it was laid on for you and all your fellow students would be there, but for those ordinands training on regional courses, the discipline required to say the office daily, when there was no one but you and God watching, was far superior and much more akin to life in the real world of ministry.
What will happen to those who can't make prayers when they are in college, with fellow students and staff watching, when in ministry they will often be left to their own devices?
SS
There's something to be said for that, but the advantage of the college system is that it builds up the habit and helps you to appreciate the need for the daily office thus making the transition into doing on one's own easier (perhaps). It might also encourage one to try and say it publicly and get one's congregation involved. Personally, I much prefer saying the office communally.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Thurible has it about right for Cranmer Hall, a pattern which is much the same today. Strangely coincidental, but I am spending the rest of this week there and lookin forward to joining in the round of college worship again.
We used the CW daily office lectionary when it was published - prior to that we used the draft form of the same (which may be what Thurible remembers).
EP was generally from CW and we introduced a weekly choral BCP evensnog (coutesy of the ciollege chouir - mainly undergraduates).
As a vicar from the wilds of Salford joining the staff 10 years ago this year, i found the Daily Ofice a blessing (at least for the first few years!). Now I am elsewhere I miss it.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
One of the very few things I regret about the Cranmer of my day (mid 80s) was that the daily offices were not compulsory, and there was no suggestion that they should be. If you don't form the habit while training it is very hard to acquire it later.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
One of the very few things I regret about the Cranmer of my day (mid 80s) was that the daily offices were not compulsory, and there was no suggestion that they should be. If you don't form the habit while training it is very hard to acquire it later.
As opposed to Chad's along the street (twenty years earlier) where we were expected to be at Morning Prayer every day except for Sunday and one day off. If you overslept you had to apologise and make it up on your day off!
They wouldn't get away with it today.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Thurible
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# 3206
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At Staggers, you're expected to be at Morning Prayer Sunday-Friday (7.30 normally; 8 on Wednesday and 8.30 on Sunday) and would have to apologise for not being. Evensong is similarly obligatory at 6 Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and 4.30 on Friday.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The Chad's rule applied to undergraduates as well. Admittedly, the vast majority also in some sense in preparation for ordination, but even those who weren't were expected to be there. It took a long time for the sixties to impact on Durham!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
At Staggers, you're expected to be at Morning Prayer Sunday-Friday (7.30 normally; 8 on Wednesday and 8.30 on Sunday) and would have to apologise for not being. Evensong is similarly obligatory at 6 Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and 4.30 on Friday.
Thurible
Sundays? Aren't you all out at your placement parishes then?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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I'm not at Staggers. Seminarians do not attend placements on Sunday mornings - as the reports picks up on.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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I was an undergraduate at St John's in Durham, er, um, before some of you lot were born. Not a candidate for ministry and so under no compulsion or expectation to attend chapel. And I have to say that I doubt if I got into the chapel more than about once a term. But I missed it when I left and could have done with more.
If its a good idea for ministers to use a daily office, it seems to me that the best place to do it is something like a college chapel. (That or live next door to a church that has services every day!)
A routine that you get into the habit of in company can stick in private. Much more so than the other way round I think. The presence of other people makes the willing supsension of disbelief a lot easier. "Yes I really am here and really saying these words yet again..."
Much harder on your own I'd guess. And even harder if living with people who are not doing that.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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And when I was an undergraduate (not studying theology) at St Andrews, there was also every morning short main chapel worship, which quite a few of us regularly attended - it could fit in just before the first lecture if mine was 9.10am. that main chapel had Sunday morning services, with choir people at uni, and various people visiting for preaching. They also used the other chapel for interesting evening services. So theology students did attend and take part, but they were not technically "ordinands" and there were post-graduates as well as under-graduates studying theology.
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London
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Superslug
Shipmate
# 7024
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I was an undergraduate at St John's in Durham, er, um, before some of you lot were born. Not a candidate for ministry and so under no compulsion or expectation to attend chapel. And I have to say that I doubt if I got into the chapel more than about once a term. But I missed it when I left and could have done with more.
If its a good idea for ministers to use a daily office, it seems to me that the best place to do it is something like a college chapel. (That or live next door to a church that has services every day!)
A routine that you get into the habit of in company can stick in private. Much more so than the other way round I think. The presence of other people makes the willing supsension of disbelief a lot easier. "Yes I really am here and really saying these words yet again..."
Much harder on your own I'd guess. And even harder if living with people who are not doing that.
Correct me if I misunderstood, but you seem to be saying that the habit of saying the daily office communally after training will be easier to continue for those who got the habit in college rather than for those who had set up the routine for themselves and stuck to through 3 years of a regional course (in spite of the noisy kids, forgotton homework, sick dogs, breakfasts to prepare and no one in the house caring either way whether you said the office or not).
Harder to get the habit I agree bit easier to stick to in ministry surely.
Yes I can't wait to get to my title parish were it is said daily and communally, it will be a relief. But for my collegues who are either going NSM or where it is not said communally, the discipline attained of saying it daily on thier own is going to stand them in good stead, better I would say than those who have had thier hand held in college.
SS
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I was 'educated' in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. Therefore, please feel free to correct my grammar and punctuation. I need to know!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Superslug:
... you seem to be saying that the habit of saying the daily office communally after training will be easier to continue for those who got the habit in college rather than for those who had set up the routine for themselves and stuck to through 3 years of a regional course
Yes, definetely.
Partly because in practice few people will manage to stick to the routine themselves. Alsmost no-one who doesn't live alone I would guess.
If you start off where it is comparitively easy (not very easy, but less difficult) and where there is social reinforcement of it, then it will be less of a strain to carry on in different circumstances.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Ken
I am afraid you are wrong on that supposition about people living alone not being able to keep it. How do I know, well I have only done it for about twenty years at which time I have rarely shared a house. My pattern still exists, very limited at present I admit but it is still there. At best it is two solid 15 minute slots a day or more. I know when my morning slot are and when my evening slot is. It may only be a flash prayer to God at the moment, I wish it wasn't but that is how it is.
If I, who is not vowed to do it can do it then there must be some Anglican clerics who also manage to do it without the support of others.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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