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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Ecclesiantics Altimeter
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Uhm we have a problem here.
Let me take you through four cases:
- Old fashioned formal worship, 5 hymns psalms communion once a year and forty minute sermons. No organ and not really sure they should have a notice on the front the church.
- Liturgical inovators, 4 hymns, 1 psalm not necessarily sung, twenty minute sermon, communion monthly, responses and creative liturgy regularly in worship. Probably have an organ and maybe a choir. These are likely to light candles and such.
- Family service norm, 4 hymns and choruses mix, no psalm, definitely a children address (maybe only a children's address), open sharing of concerns in worship, communion monthly although weekly not unknown, ten minutes sermon max. Probably led by someone on the piano.
- evangelical imitators norm praise worship time fitted into a semi-formal order of worship, forty minute sermon, use of multimedia to display things.
Theologically [1] & [4] are likely to be conservative although when outside Scotland [1] can be culturally rather than theologically united. [2] is liberal and [3] can be anything it likes.
[1] is strongly in the Reformed tradition, [2] draws far more on the ecumenical tradition with actually [3] being more Reformed than it is but drawing on the more family centred English tradition of dissent rather than the high Scots tradition. [4] draws on the Evangelical tradition particularly the charismatic side.
[1] & [2] will be formal [3] and [4] informal.
You can go on mixing them up at will.
Presbyterians do not sit on a neat line from high church to low church however you calibrate that line. You used to have this in Church of England where you had not just the high to low dimesion but the liberal to conservative dimension as well.I will leave others better than me to talk about liberal low church people who are definitely a diminishing group.
Jengie
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I will leave others better than me to talk about liberal low church people who are definitely a diminishing group.
Not round here they're not. But probably liberal anything, in C of E terms, tends to mean middle class.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I wonder how this would register in the Altimeter...
Hello. This is my native environment.
Remember I call myself a Scoto-Catholic? Well, this is it, people!
Ma Preacher, before she retired, used to run churches according to this ideal. Maybe not with Monthly Communion, and substituting Lord's Supper or Holy Communion for Eucharist (a word the United Church of Canada rarely uses, preferring the first two), but she usually wore a chasuble for Communion. And she was far from alone in that practice.
She also used to wear a chasuble for baptisms. Going big over baptisms is a very Reformed practice.
Or, framing it according to Jengie's very useful scale, [2] is batting average for the United Church of Canada and our worship resources are geared for this kind of service.
The difference is that chassies came into Presby-land and the low-and-liberal United Church of Canada in the 1960's when we got all ecumenical (well, more ecumenical in our particular case) and lot of things got more liberal. The Roman Catholics started to use the vernacular and sing the standard English-language hymn repertoire regularly and we started wearing chassies.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
MartinL calibrated the Eccles Altimeter for non-Anglican churches (commonly called Protestant)and this rates as High-MOTR.
Monthly Communion, liturgical colours, vestments, uses standard liturgy from a recognized denominational resource. Timber Creek is a prime example of this.
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
liturgical colours, vestments,
A chasuble, though? Really?
My uncle and his wife are both PCUSA ministers; both are far from the contemporary worship crowd, but neither would have anything to do with a chasuble.
Is this more common in the UCCan and the Presbyterian Church of Canada, SPK?
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I don't know about the PCC, they hew a more traditional line. For various reasons. I believe they still favour Geneva Gowns or albs-and-stoles if they wish to be modern.
In the UCCan, it's par for the course if you care about liturgy. Nothing to worry the horses. Then again we have no liturgical rules, only guidelines. It's ALL optional except for a specific part of the ordination rite.
PCUSA, due to different history, parallels both the PCC and the UCCan.
I doubt this minister has scared his Presbytery. He wouldn't be able to run the sort of services this church offers without the approval of the Session.
Actually, that's a key point I want to make. Under the Presbyterian system, a High-MOTR congregation like this can't happen without the agreement of the Session and congregation. The congregation had to agree to vote to issue the Call and would have known about his preferred worship style and preaching before making the Call. There would have been interviews, trial worships services, etc. No hidden agenda.
Second, as the Session regulates worship and must be present for the Lord's Supper he couldn't have the full Communion schedule that this church does unless the Session wanted it. Again, the congregation through the Session has to support being this sort of church.
What I'm driving at here is that getting to be the kind of church that this congregation is can't happen under Presbyterian polity without substantial congregational agreement.
As for chasubles, the worship style of this church is very much an example of the modern ecumenical-oriented thinking that is coming out of PCUSA's and the UCCan's Divinity School's these days.
I have tried for ages to convince people here on the Ship that many Presbytertians don't foam at the mouth when they see a chasuble and many ministers actually wear them. They didn't believe me. Perhaps now they will.
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Presbytertians don't foam at the mouth when they see a chasuble and many ministers actually wear them. They didn't believe me. Perhaps now they will.
Thanks for the response, SPK. I'm just trying to learn; its just that I've been hermetically sealed in my own little Episco-Anglo-Catholic vault for so long that I'm unsure of what happens in other mainline churches.
My aunt and uncle are pretty old (uncle is nearly 70); maybe they are just out of step with how the church is doing things these days?
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I appreciate opportunity to tangent to explain a hobby-horse of mine. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
See, one of the big disconnects between Anglo-Catholics, Anglicans/Episcopalians and everyone else is that when a Presbyterian minister wears a chasuble and her congregation chooses to have monthly Communion and stick to the RCL, they not not disclaiming anything about themselves.
When I read posts by the Anglo-Catholic Brigade here in Eccles, there's a lot of "the Low Church people don't like this" or "The Bishop is pretty Protty and won't let us do that" or "We're not on good terms with the Low Church parish three blocks away". It seems that silos are pretty common. That sort of thinking if foreign to me.
When a Presby or UCCan congregation goes this route, they don't day things like that. Presbytery isn't going to come down on their heads for changing things a bit. The congregation still affirms that they're Presbyterian or UCCan, they're just choosing to emphasize some things from the 2000-year history of the Holy Catholic Church (of which we are a part, creedaly speaking). You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. We're all part of one big family.
The cool thing is that you don't have to play doctrinal limbo do justify anything. It's all there. In fact many churches in the Presbyterian world were what I would call wet-baby Baptists in the early 20th Century. If that was a bit of an extreme down one path, this is a turn towards another in reaction to that. It's normal, it's healthy.
The other thing is that both PCUSA and the UCCan have a long history of mergers so that toleration and moderation are skills that we have worked very hard to develop. That's why many ministers refrain from nasty, divisive rhetoric.
Finally, with respect to your family, the modern chassie-wearing, ecumenically-aware minister who exemplifies Jengie's Category [2] is a product of the 1960's and after. The time when Vatican 2 made us Prots sit up and look again at the Roman Catholic Church without resorting to hackneyed stereotypes about the "Scarlet Woman". It's also when many divinity schools became part of interdenominational consortiums (often with Roman Catholics), on cost grounds as much as ecumenical ones.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
liturgical colours, vestments,
A chasuble, though? Really?
My uncle and his wife are both PCUSA ministers; both are far from the contemporary worship crowd, but neither would have anything to do with a chasuble.
Is this more common in the UCCan and the Presbyterian Church of Canada, SPK?
Lets give you some idea of the mix there can be. At my home church the minister wear white for communion (I suspect cassock alb) and has quarterly communions.
Liturgical colours have been used for over twenty years although some in the congregation don't understand why. An introduction by a Episopalian who found here Christian identity was more Scots than Anglican.
The congregation does not really go for chorus style things but will sing them. They have a choir and organ. They are happy with drama and such in worship.
Jengie
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
This all sounds pretty similar to the Uniting Church in Australia too.
We are pretty easy-going about worship styles and what-to-wear. Heck, we even see incense at some churches now. And then, at the other end of the spectrum.... Well!
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In Scotland,which some people see as the mother country of English speaking presbyterianism ,I don't think that any minister,male female or otherwise, would wear a chasuble.
Most ministers wear either ordinary clothes or more commonly a black gown over which there may or may not be a university hood or occasionally a stole.There are a few who will wear an alb with stole ,following the liturgical sequence of colours as understood by the minister,but not necessarily by the congregation.
The understanding of Catholic order and vestments by the average Presbyterian congregation is virtually non existent,so there is little recognition of the fact that the minister may be following customs which one finds within the Catholic church.
I spoke to one person in St Giles' in Edinburgh who had absolutely no idea of the significance of the different colours of drapings which are to be found on the pillars of the church at different seasons of the year.
Similarly if lectionary readings are used,most congregations would continue to think that they were,as was the custom for centuries,the personal choice of the minister to illustrate whatever point he (or she) wished to make in the sermon.
Certainly I agree with SPK that the format of any Presbyterian service would be in broad outlines agreed to by the local congregation,although that generally leaves quite a bit of latitude to the minister.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes they don't have a clue because they don't think it is important, in that they are joined by quite a few RCs.
The high church ceremony equalling Catholic is very much an Anglican hang up.
Jengie
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
JJ I agree with you up to a point.Many catholics have little interest in the sequence of liturgical colours,nor in the shape of chasubles,nor even whether the priest wears a chasuble or not - some regularly don't.
However I think that most are aware that the Scripture readings are taken from a lectionary and that it is basically the same set of scripture readings which are used in every church on the same day.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
You'd be surprised how many Reformed are onto that too.
Sorry, but we spread our worship leading wider and if I had a penny for everytime I hear "what on earth am I supposed to make of this weeks lectionary readings", I would be a good way to making my fortune.
Jengie
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rowen:
This all sounds pretty similar to the Uniting Church in Australia too.
We are pretty easy-going about worship styles and what-to-wear. Heck, we even see incense at some churches now. And then, at the other end of the spectrum.... Well!
I don't know of any United Church of Canada congregations that use incense. Our Union was in 1925 so the high-Methodist end that would have liked that sort of thing just wasn't that high. Incense wasn't even normal in Anglican circles then, let alone Methodist/United Church ones.
On the other hand, many Methodist-origin shacks proceeded to remove their altar rails after 1925 when they renovated. The 1930 Book of Common Order rite for communion was wee cuppies and break cubes passed around the pews.
Also, unlike Australia, the great wave of post-war suburban churches in Canada were constructed as United Churches and have never been anything else. None have altar rails.
Actually, when asked many ministers prefer albs and stoles to Geneva Gowns and preaching bands because the latter are too hot to wear comfortably, especially now that churches usually have efficient central heating. So if your norm is alb-and-stole, donning a chasuble is just the logical next step of dressing up for Communion.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
You'd be surprised how many Reformed are onto that too.
Sorry, but we spread our worship leading wider and if I had a penny for everytime I hear "what on earth am I supposed to make of this weeks lectionary readings", I would be a good way to making my fortune.
Jengie
I certainly hope they've stumbled upon the many sermon-help resources available. This is one advantage of using an official lectionary.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Or the fact that it makes preaching during the Great Seasons of Advent, Lent and Easter so much easier.
Let's face it, most ministers don't have that many great ideas on random bible passages, so those they do have can be saved for when it gets really boring during Ordinary Time.
Here's another "up the candle" observation for you. 60 years ago most congregations in the United Church of Canada didn't do Christmas Eve services. Now most do. In fact even rural three-point charges can and will organize services for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.
Now that's going up the candle on a widespread basis.
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Now that's going up the candle on a widespread basis.
SPK, your insight into North American (or at least Canadian) presbymethegationalism seems to be impeccable.
To what do you attribute this 'going up the candle'? Would you say it is an ecumenism thing (like the worship stylings we mentioned above, or something else?
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The ecumenicism starts in divinity school. Many large university theological faculties are now joint ventures between different churches. Nobody can afford to staff a first-rate full-service theological school on their own anymore. In Canada we have the Toronto School of Theology which has three RC schools, two Anglican, the United Church and the Presbyterians under a common faculty. So the mixing start starts there as the Jesuits do Biblical scholarship, the Basilian Fathers do Church History, the United Church does Pastoral Care, etc.
Second while the Liturgical Movement in Roman Catholic and Anglican circles was a tidal wave, to us it was more of a ripple. It was there none the less. The UCCan's Methodist streak has always taken note of the Liturgical Year and recent history has only reinforced that. Also in our particular case there were serious merger talks between us and the Anglicans in the 1970's, so we did pay attention to Anglican trends.
Third, when Vatican II introduced vernacular Masses as a standard, it really did achieve a major goal of the Reformation. The corollary of that was that Protestant churches like the United Church stopped seeing RC views as "icky" and started to incorporate things they liked. Frequent communion is fully compatible with Reformed doctrine. In the 20th Century a chasuble is just as "odd" as a Geneva Gown. Take your pick. We did.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
In fact even rural three-point charges can and will organize services for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.
But here is the really contradictory factor. The standard non-conformist meal-communion for Maundy Thursday is being adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church but on Wednesday of Holy Week.
The flow is not in one direction.
Jengie
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
It's not contradictory, it's the same thing going the opposite way.
In Presby and Catholic Churches, there is nothing wrong with adopting one another's ideas and then fitting them on your own framework. So some Reformed ministers like chasubles and albs. Fine. Frequent Communion? As Jengie has noted, both Knox and Calvin were for that, so its just taking care of the next item on the Reformation agenda. I'm sure the Minister is still on good terms with the rest of his Presbytery.
Likewise if the Catholics want to have a Eucharistic Meal on Holy Week Wednesday, I'm sure that the doctrine of Transubstantiation will be fully proclaimed. Sewing a new patch on one's quilt doesn't mean you tear the rest of the quilt to shreds.
However when some Anglo-Catholic posters start going, they say they use the Roman Missal instead of their province's Prayer Book, don't get along with their Bishop and decry the next parish over as "abominably Low". I don't like that dialectic, it seems like trying to shred your identity, whereas the Presbies and the Catholics choose to affirm their identities in everything they do.
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
I don't like that dialectic, it seems like trying to shred your identity, whereas the Presbies and the Catholics choose to affirm their identities in everything they do.
I don't disagree with you, SPK; most of us A-Cs don't like the setup either. I would love to be able to get along with my bishop; for the most part, I do. Many, though, do not. But when there are differences in churchpersonship and ecclesiastical identity, there is bound to be some tension. And we are affirming our identity; it just so happens that we have a different view of that identity than the relevant ecclesiastical authority. For better or worse, A-Cism has always been sort of a ghetto within the larger Anglican church. Of course, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
Also, while many self-concious A-Cs do not use the provincial prayerbook, I think very few of us (at least in North America) use the Roman Rite.
[ 09. November 2010, 18:20: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
But here is the really contradictory factor. The standard non-conformist meal-communion for Maundy Thursday is being adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church but on Wednesday of Holy Week.
The flow is not in one direction.
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Likewise if the Catholics want to have a Eucharistic Meal on Holy Week Wednesday, I'm sure that the doctrine of Transubstantiation will be fully proclaimed.
Could someone explain these comments to me? They have me confused because there's nothing new or unusual in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church in saying Mass on Holy Wednesday or on most days of Holy Week and there has always been a Mass of the Lord's Supper on Holy Thursday. It's only between then and the Easter Vigil that Mass cannot be celebrated (though communion can be given from the reserved Sacrament during the Good Friday Liturgy).
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we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
It is the meal eucharist, the having a service based around a meal that ends with a eucharist. To give you an example, the meal at one church I attended included sardines, cheese, bread, fruit and water (i.e. a simple meal, the reason for sardines was one of the ministers had cheese triggered migraines). There were ready for use also the bread and wine for communion, normally at this church single cup (the only time in the year when that happened, otherwise it was wee cuppies).
The service would start with a hymn and a prayer. Readings, prayers and preaching, normally some telling of the Maundy Thursday story and maybe more singing would happen while people were eating. Once we got to the point where most people had finished we moved onto the eucharist, which was normally kept very simple.
Jengie
[ 09. November 2010, 18:36: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Think everyone gathered around one table; the whole thing looks like re-enacting what happened in the Upper Room with simplicity and a desire for fidelity, and you'll get the idea.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
I don't like that dialectic, it seems like trying to shred your identity, whereas the Presbies and the Catholics choose to affirm their identities in everything they do.
I don't disagree with you, SPK; most of us A-Cs don't like the setup either. I would love to be able to get along with my bishop; for the most part, I do. Many, though, do not. But when there are differences in churchpersonship and ecclesiastical identity, there is bound to be some tension. And we are affirming our identity; it just so happens that we have a different view of that identity than the relevant ecclesiastical authority. For better or worse, A-Cism has always been sort of a ghetto within the larger Anglican church. Of course, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
Also, while many self-concious A-Cs do not use the provincial prayerbook, I think very few of us (at least in North America) use the Roman Rite.
If Anglo-Catholics only used Roman Rite, Eccles would have little reason to exist.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Jengie and SPK, thanks for that explanation. I can see how something like could be adapted in a Latin Rite context.* It would be tricky though. Off the top of my head, I don't see how that could be officially "joined" to a Mass (the reasons relate to some of what's been discusssed on Sabine's "What is litugy?" thread).
Jengie, while I'm not really familiar with what's going on in the UK, I would be careful about saying something like that is being "adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church". That could imply something is being officially adopted, when its more of a trend or fad among some liturgists and prayer groups. Not that whatever it is is necessarily a bad thing in itself. I think it would be better to say that "among some Catholics", "some RCs", etc. (but that's just my opinion, of course). Then again, I could be wrong, and there's a diocese that's doing this officially.
* unofficialy, as part of a prayer group meeting, or religious education, etc.
[ 09. November 2010, 19:01: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
As Pancho says the eucharistic meal (often called the Mass) is celebrated liturgically every day in the Catholic church - with the exception of Good Friday - where Communion is distributed under the form of bread alone at the liturgy.
This includes every day of Holy Week (apart from Good Friday) and with only ONE celebration of Mass on Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday.
Like Pancho ,I have no idea what SPK means by a eucharistic meal on the Wednesday of holy Week nor what his use of the word 'transubstantiation' means in this context.
There is a great difference between the official liturgy of the Catholic church provided for these days and what individuals may do as a private devotion -is SPK perhaps referring to the custom of having a Passover type meal sometime in Holy Week ? - Catholics who might think of having this type of meal would usually NOT have it on Holy Thursday in order that it does not clash with the important liturgy of the day. Many people are against this idea of having a Passover type meal as,although it might be interesting ,it is a sort of 'Faux' Passover meal,just like some people who might play at celebrating a Mass or a bit like children playing at the celebration of a wedding.
Scotland is a part of the UK,but I certainly cannot think of any other 'eucharistic meal' celebrated by UK Catholics on the Wednesday of Holy Week.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
I have joined this discussion late, but all I can think of is the possibility of a Seder meal being celebrated on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday in Holy Week. I have experienced this and it is Jewish-based of course, but that is in addition to the Mass of the day.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If Anglo-Catholics only used Roman Rite, Eccles would have little reason to exist.
There would still be all the ProttyPresbyBaptyPentyMethy whatnots for us to engage in meaningful debate. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Jengie, while I'm not really familiar with what's going on in the UK, I would be careful about saying something like that is being "adopted in the UK by the Roman Catholic Church". That could imply something is being officially adopted, when its more of a trend or fad among some liturgists and prayer groups. Not that whatever it is is necessarily a bad thing in itself. I think it would be better to say that "among some Catholics", "some RCs", etc. (but that's just my opinion, of course). Then again, I could be wrong, and there's a diocese that's doing this officially.
* unofficialy, as part of a prayer group meeting, or religious education, etc.
I suspect it is somewhere inbetween the person reporting it to me was reporting the behaviour in his RC congregation not in prayer group or religious education.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
*bump*
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I am trying to work out where my "funny farm" - erm - parish - is on the Altimeter.
Services - Sundays
8.35am Morning Prayer
9.00am Holy Eucharist
10.30am Sung Eucharist - which is a Frankenmass 2nd and 5th
Wednesdays
9.35am Morning Prayer
10.00am Holy Eucharist
Other events are a Bible Study on Wednesday morning and a Prayer Meeting on Friday evenings.
The main altar has two lights and a Christus Rex style crucifix. There is a side altar with a tabernacle with four lights and a crucifix. Stations of the Cross and one or two discreet icons, but no statues or votive lights. Holy Water stoup by the door for blessing oneself entering and/or leavng.
All services are said apart from the 10.30am on Sundays. When this is a straight Sung Eucharist (i.e. not a Frankenmass) Eucharistic vestments are usually worn, with the deacon in alb, stole and dalmatic (unless the A/C packs up1). The Kyrie, Gloria, Collect, Preface, Sanctus, Lord's Prayer and Agnus Dei are sung. At the Frankenmass the Canticles, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Gloria are sung, and the celebrant and deacon wear choir habit.
The ceremonial is mainly derived from 'A Prayer Book Manual.' No Gospel procession. Bow to the altar and at the Name of Jesus. The celebrant does fairly minimal manual acts in the Canon. Celebrant always elevate at the end of the Canon. The elevations at the Words of Institution and Sanctus bells are used sometimes. Incense is used Christmas Eve, Maundy Thursday, Easter, and Pentecost.
Holy Week
Monday to Wednesday - MP and said Eucharist.
Maundy Thursday - Solemn Eucharist and Striping of Altar; no foot washing.
Good Friday - Liturgy of the Day but without Communion
Easter Vigil - poor attended; but celebrated none the less.
Holydays
Red Letter Days are kept. Ascension Day, etc., get an evening Sung Eucharist.
Personally I think we are MOTR with some signs of having been a lot Lower many years ago, but what does the Ecclesiantics crowd think.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I always wondered this when I hosted and never quite got up the courage to ask. Why do you want to know ? what is the personal or theological significance of knowing one's own and one's parish's place on the altimeter ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
What is a Frankenmass? (Or am I going to regret asking?)
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I always wondered this when I hosted and never quite got up the courage to ask. Why do you want to know ? what is the personal or theological significance of knowing one's own and one's parish's place on the altimeter ?
Mainly idle curiosity, but also need to check in my OCD way that I am in fact keeping it in the middle. Most Anglicans tend to think their parish is MOTR, but in many cases this is not so.
Just to illustrate the point. Shortly after I moved to the USA I visted a couple of parishes that advertised themselves as "middle-of-the-road" and had their parishioners convinced that it was a fact.
PD
[ 03. May 2011, 18:47: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
whoops - lost the last sentence.
...one was very Low - almost scarily so; and the other was borderline Anglo-Catholic.
A Frankenmass is a Eucharist with the usual Liturgy of the Word replaced by Morning Prayer.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
From a TEC perspective, I'd say overall your parish was low-motr. Frankenmass puts you on the low side of MOTR. If you alternated MP and HE, I'd say you were low by current TEC standards.
How about my parish?
Sunday
8AM-Eucharist Rite I (said, no music)
10Am-Rite II (with choir)
No weekly Eucharist or daily office unless it is a major holy day.
Sanctus bells are always used. Mass vestments are always worn. We have incense on All Saints, Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost. After I train more people in the use of incense, we will have it more often. I elevate and genuflect during the words of institution and at the concluding doxology. Other manual acts include, among others, three signs of the cross at the epiclesis and at the concluding doxology.
Choir and congregation sing all of the service music. Choir chants the Psalm. Once in a blue moon, I'll chant. I don't chant more because I'm basically tone deaf. Music comes from a variety of sources including the Hymnal 1982, LEVAS, and WLP. Musician mostly uses organ but occasionally an upright piano. She used it all during Lent at my request. Choral anthems are selected by the musician to fit the abilities of the choir.
What else? Church has a freestanding altar which we use most of the time. During Lent, we used the high altar. It will be used again during Advent. Sacrament reserved in a tabernacle on the high altar. Reredos contains two statues (John and the BVM). Sanctuary has the standard two candles on the free standing altar, six on the high altar, and sanctuary candle suspended from the ceiling.
Congregation stands for prayers of the people but kneels for the confession and Eucharistic prayer. The choir and celebrant face the altar for the Nicene Creed. Other acts of piety vary from person to person.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
From a TEC perspective, I'd say overall your parish was low-motr. Frankenmass puts you on the low side of MOTR.
Not always, I'd say. It could be the opposite, in fact, as I would guess it is at St. Thomas.
That was a 4th-Sunday Morning Prayer parish, if I'm not wrong - but now has an AC rector. And Frankenmass is a new development, AFAIK.
My math says that's an attempt to continue the use of a few Morning Prayer forms (and music) while making sure Communion is celebrated.
(Of course, I could be wrong....)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Interesting. I'd definately say Frankenmass is Low MOTR.
Now please rank my current:
8:00 1928 (expect for Collect and Lessons which are 79/RCL)
10:30 Rite I with Form III prayers of the people and sometimes Rite confession and absolution.
Very, very long break at Peace so announcements, chatting and jokes can be done.
Often, the bread and wine are offered with incense while the chatting is going on during the break. The offertory itself is well over before the collection of money.
Once a month is a Frankenmass, and the Alternative Eucharistic Prayer II is used (as it is most Sundays, so very few people ever find their place and just leave responding to the choir).
The 10:30 Mass (it is called Mass) always starts the ending rites with "Go ye now in peace" followed by a Triple Hail Mary before the final hymn.
After the hymn, the old "blessed praised, worshipped, hollowed and adored...blessed sacrament of the altar" etc is prayed, then the souls of the faithful departed are commended.
Wednesdays the Angelus or Regina Coeli is prayed after the nearly by the book 1928, the only additions being the benedictus qui venit, agnus dei and Last Gospel.
There is a votive candle stand at the statue of OL of Walsingham, and enormous Sacred Heart and Immaculate Mary and in the Lady Chapel a Fatima AND a Guadalupe.
But honestly, it isn't anywhere near Anglo-Catholic!
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The rubrics of the 79 BCP allow it. I don't know how frequently the form was used before then. Seems like a way to make HE the main service on a Sunday but appease those who would prefer MP with less frequent communion.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I wouldn't rank PD's parish as low anything because of things like MBS reserved in tabernacle, Christus Rex, Holy Water Stoup, Eucharistic vestments. I'd say it's old fashioned non-AC high church with a few surprising low church uses thrown in, esp. the Holy Week schedule with no mass of the pre-sanctified on Good Friday. I don't find Frankenmass to be contraindicative to an older style of ritually high church, but it obviously isn't A-C.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
It seems to work for St John's Detroit, which is otherwise a Missal parish. Even Rome has Masspers (after a fashion).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
From a TEC perspective, I'd say overall your parish was low-motr. Frankenmass puts you on the low side of MOTR. If you alternated MP and HE, I'd say you were low by current TEC standards.
How about my parish?
Sunday
8AM-Eucharist Rite I (said, no music)
10Am-Rite II (with choir)
No weekly Eucharist or daily office unless it is a major holy day.
Sanctus bells are always used. Mass vestments are always worn. We have incense on All Saints, Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost. After I train more people in the use of incense, we will have it more often. I elevate and genuflect during the words of institution and at the concluding doxology. Other manual acts include, among others, three signs of the cross at the epiclesis and at the concluding doxology.
Choir and congregation sing all of the service music. Choir chants the Psalm. Once in a blue moon, I'll chant. I don't chant more because I'm basically tone deaf. Music comes from a variety of sources including the Hymnal 1982, LEVAS, and WLP. Musician mostly uses organ but occasionally an upright piano. She used it all during Lent at my request. Choral anthems are selected by the musician to fit the abilities of the choir.
What else? Church has a freestanding altar which we use most of the time. During Lent, we used the high altar. It will be used again during Advent. Sacrament reserved in a tabernacle on the high altar. Reredos contains two statues (John and the BVM). Sanctuary has the standard two candles on the free standing altar, six on the high altar, and sanctuary candle suspended from the ceiling.
Congregation stands for prayers of the people but kneels for the confession and Eucharistic prayer. The choir and celebrant face the altar for the Nicene Creed. Other acts of piety vary from person to person.
I would say High bordering on Anglo-Catholic, but not quite there. Sort of the other end of the High category to my place.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Sunday Mass at our place is 1928 BCP with American Missal supplementation. No incense except at special occasions (the choir rebels).
3 hymns per service (entrance, post-Communion, exit); we add an Offertory hymn when the choir is furloughed for the summer. Chanted minor propers from the English Gradual. Eucharistic vestments (no maniples, sadly). Kyrie followed by Gloria in excelsis. Creed sung, facing East (genuflection at Et incarnatus est. Sign of the cross made in the usual places; inclinatio at the name of Jesus.
Offertory includes the translated prayers from the Roman Rite, said sotto voce underneath the choir's anthem (or the congregation's hymn) with appropriate manual acts. The Orate fratres and secret prayers are also said softly at this time.
Canon is accompanied by signings, genuflections, elevations and other manual acts as noted. The Lord's Prayer is sung, and followed by the embolism (also sung), during which the celebrant signs himself with the paten, also kissing it before slipping it under the hosts. The prayer for peace is said just before the Prayer of Humble Access. Non sum dignus said by the priest 3 times before his communion. Sanctus bells used here and in the other usual places.
The Ecce Agnus Dei is said before the people's communion. In addition to the Great Thanksgiving, the proper post-communion prayer is also said (or sung). The dismissal is said before the blessing. On certain feasts of our Lord the Last Gospel is also read.
The above would seem to place us squarely in the A-C camp (no snickers from the peanut gallery, please), though we could certainly be further up the candle than we are. The next project is to slowly start to teach the server & my clerical colleague Solemn High ceremonial, although I think that will be a longer-term project.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Sounds fairly Anglo-Catholic to me. What about Benediction or Marian devotions?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am trying to work out where my "funny farm" - erm - parish - is on the Altimeter.
You know, I have to concur with Think here. YOU started this wretched thread two years ago, and here you give us a blow-by-blow account of just what you do. Short of when you scratch your bum, I don't think you've left any detail undescribed. And your obsession with lists of times of services makes you the closest thing to an Ecclesiastical Bradshaw's that I have yet encountered.
So I was bewildered when you resurrected this thread to tell us all the same stuff again as if you had had no hand in the origins of this thread.
Odd. Very, very, very odd.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds fairly Anglo-Catholic to me. What about Benediction or Marian devotions?
Not at my current parish, at least not yet (other parishes in my jurisdiction do those things, though). We're a mix of A-Cs, converts from evangelical & reformed churches, and old-style Morning Prayer Episcopalians, so a balance of sorts needs to be struck to prevent the Romaphobic from fleeing in terror. In a few years, we'll probably be at the point that we can have Solemn Evensong with Benediction on Sundays and recite the Angelus after Mass, but right now it might be one straw too many.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I am trying to work out where my "funny farm" - erm - parish - is on the Altimeter.
You know, I have to concur with Think here. YOU started this wretched thread two years ago, and here you give us a blow-by-blow account of just what you do. Short of when you scratch your bum, I don't think you've left any detail undescribed. And your obsession with lists of times of services makes you the closest thing to an Ecclesiastical Bradshaw's that I have yet encountered.
So I was bewildered when you resurrected this thread to tell us all the same stuff again as if you had had no hand in the origins of this thread.
Odd. Very, very, very odd.
Triple Tiara - please be careful to avoid personal attacks here. (I sincerely hope that posting in Eccles is never like scratching ones bum, but there we go!)
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
bump
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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