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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Ecclesiantics Altimeter
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PD
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Posted
20 July, 2009 21:23
As you have guessed I have been trying to calibrate my ecclesiastical altimeter now that I am getting out more.
Here is my field guide to TEC churchmanship.
Low Church
West facing altar; two lights
Surplice or alb and stole for the Eucharist; robed servers on Sundays
Music
- Kyrie or Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, several hymns
Not much in the way ceremonial gestures. Bow in and out and maybe at the end of the EP. Sign of Cross at absolution and blessing.
A chance of MP as the main service every other Sunday in MA and VA.
Midweek Eucharist fairly common.
MOTR
West facing altar; two lights - maybe six "office lights" on shelf behind altar.
Eucharistic vestments (usually modern); MOTR-Low priests tend to dress for dinner. Several robed servers and EMs on Sundays
Music - much the same as the Low Church guys and gals, but maybe the psalm will be chanted n Sundays, and the Preface and Lord's Prayer sung on major feasts.
A bit more in the way of ceremonial gestures. Bow going in and out and at the end of the EP; cross over the elements at the epiclesis; lesser elevation quite promnent part of the ritual. Certain amount of respect shown to the consecrated elements. Occasional incense. MOTR-High places will have elevation and genuflection at the Words of Institution. MP and EP rarely celebrated even as spoken office on Sundays.
Midweek Eucharist almost compulsory.
High
About 50-50 on West facing and east facing depending on where you are in the country. Bi six; taberbacle on high altar or in major side chapel. Occasionally an aumbry.
Eucharistic vestments, usually older and of nice quality; robed servers - one on weekdays; several on Sundays. Vested deacon and Subdeacon for High Mass. Incense usually used at the main Mass.
A main service the ordinary sung except perhaps for the Creed. Collect and Preface usually sung at main Mass.
Ceremonial gestures. Genuflect in and out if MBS present. Nod of head at Holy Name; genuflect or profound bow at the Incarnatus. Plenty of elbow work during the Canon. Elevations, genuflections and bells at the consecration.
MP said before first Low Mass of the day on Sundays. Sung EP occasionally. Several midweek Eucharists, and a good chance of MP and/or EP daily.
Anglo-Catholic
Very similar to High except more so, if you see what I mean.
Marian devotions usually figure somewhere, and usually Benediction of the MBS.
Daily Eucharist in bigger A-C shacks. Good chance of Latin ordinary on special occasions if they have a good choir.
Discuss...
PD
[ 17. March 2012, 22:19: Message edited by: Spike ]
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Comper's Child
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Posted
20 July, 2009 21:33
Your Low altimeter reading doesn't allow for those low church places that haven't had any interest in the Vatican II reforms about the free-standing altar. I know such places exist.
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CorgiGreta
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Posted
20 July, 2009 21:38
Does the "bi six" have something to to with the Kinsey scale?
Greta
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Max.
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Posted
20 July, 2009 21:41
Wow, according to that list my Church fits the tick box of Low Episcopalian! (Except that we have Mass every week)
This would be my definitions of "the liturgical candle" in the Church of England. Feel free to correct me though.
Open Evangelical
-Services simply known by the times that they are celebrated at (The Ten-Thirty Meeting)
-No Altar... maybe a table brought in at communion time.
-No Liturgy except at Baptisms in which they will emphasise many times that they have to follow typical Anglican Protocol and how wonderful it is to be part of the Church of England.
-No robes, we're far too cool for robes!
-Lots of guitars, drums and a really nice photogenic worship leader on the stage.
Traditional Evangelical
-Altar with two lights and maybe even liturgical colours on the altar.
-No Robes usually, maybe at the 9am Traditional Service
-3 services, usually the early one will be labelled "Traditional Service" and will be Morning Prayer and Holy Communion Alternating
-Guitars, Flutes, piano and drums. Worship led by an aging balding man.
Middle of the Road
-Altar with two lights and Liturgical Colours
-Alb and Stole worn at Communion Services
-Common Worship Liturgy
-Choir and Organ or Piano
-Sung Communion Setting (modern English)
-Communion done every 2nd and 4th Sunday with a Family Service on the First Sunday of the Month
High-Middle of the Road
-As above but with Communion weekly (termed "Sung Eucharist)
-Chasuble worn
High Church
-As above, but with Incense
-Sacrament reserved
Papalist High Church
-As above, but with Roman Missal.
-Not unknown to allow Praise Bands at the Family Mass
-Celebration Hymnal for Everyone is the Hymn Book of choice.
Traditional High Church
-English Missal
-Eastward Facing
-Latin Vestments
-Professional Choir which sings Latin
-Latin Mass said on weekdays
-Congregation made up either of gay men, or of about 10 old people all over the age of 80.
Max.
[ 20. July 2009, 20:42: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Patrick the less saintly
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20 July, 2009 21:41
That sounds quite accurate, but the MotR section is so large that it is almost meaningless, encompassing pretty much every ECUSA parish that has Eucharist every Sunday (almost all of them these days) but doesn't have three sacred ministers. Every Episcopal Church with which I was familiar before I left the States fell into this category, but there were still huge ranges in churchmanship.
I think it would be helpful to have two liturgical axes, one for Protestant-Catholic and one for Informal-Formal. Some shacks have ceremonial that is informal but still clearly Catholic, whilst others have very formal liturgies that are devoid of most outward Catholic signs. ASMS is both highly Catholic and highly formal, although others would score higher on both axes. Most English Cathedrals are quite formal, but few are notably Catholic in their liturgy (I have heard that Coventry is both Catholic and Evangelical, which must be interesting).
I know of one MotR place where one can expect to find, on an average Sunday, a small army of servers and large and competent choir, a verger and Eucharist vestments. On some major feasts, they also have incense and asperges. However, the majority of people in the pews don't seem to genuflect, bow their heads at the name of Jesus or during the Gloria Patriae, or even make the sign of the cross. I don't know how common this combination of 'high in the chancel, low in the pews' is.
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Patrick the less saintly
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Posted
20 July, 2009 21:49
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Traditional High Church
-English Missal
-Eastward Facing
-Latin Vestments
-Professional Choir which sings Latin
-Latin Mass said on weekdays
-Congregation made up either of gay men, or of about 10 old people all over the age of 80.
What about ASMS at its kind, which have ad orientem celebration, professional choirs, plenty of gay men (and heterosexual married couples, I might add, although the latter are usually older than the former), but which use Common Worship and, usually, gothic vestments?
I think what's missing is a distinction between 'Traditional Anglo-Catholic (non-Papalist)' and 'Traditional Anglo-Papalist'. Not to forget the English-Use crowd, although they seem to have dwindled down into one parish in London.
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Max.
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Posted
20 July, 2009 21:52
Add some definitions to the list then... those are not groups that I'm particularly familiar with. I am much more familiar with Papalist High Church people and Evangelicals.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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St. Gwladys
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Posted
20 July, 2009 22:02
Well, according to PD, my church is somewhere between low and MOTR, according to Max we are traditional evangelical as our worship group is led by an ageing, balding man (who is quite a well known folk singer, and excellent guitarist and song writer) or MOTR.
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Eddy
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Posted
20 July, 2009 22:15
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Max.:
[qb]
Traditional High Church
-English Missal
-Eastward Facing
-Latin Vestments
-Professional Choir which sings Latin
-Latin Mass said on weekdays
-Congregation made up either of gay men, or of about 10 old people all over the age of 80.
Can anyone name a church which accurately fulfills all these requirements? I don't think so.
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Doublethink.
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Posted
20 July, 2009 22:29
Patrick is right, more dimensions needed.
Perchance:
Height = ceremonial
Depth = catholicism
Breadth = variety of services over church's whole schedule
Orbit - around Canterbury / Rome etc
Perhaps one could develop a points system for the different dimensions - five sarum points to your height for a maniple used correctly, plus ten to your breadth if you have robed choir & praise band on the same day ...
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Eddy
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Posted
20 July, 2009 22:36
A Church of England priest I know is careful to point out there is High Church and there is Anglo Catholic.
High Church likes dressing up, but no Haily Mary's. Anglo Catholics preach the Catholic faith.
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Angloid
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Posted
20 July, 2009 22:59
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
This would be my definitions of "the liturgical candle" in the Church of England. Feel free to correct me though.
Open Evangelical
-Services simply known by the times that they are celebrated at (The Ten-Thirty Meeting)
-No Altar... maybe a table brought in at communion time.
-No Liturgy except at Baptisms in which they will emphasise many times that they have to follow typical Anglican Protocol and how wonderful it is to be part of the Church of England.
-No robes, we're far too cool for robes!
-Lots of guitars, drums and a really nice photogenic worship leader on the stage.
I'm not particularly au fait with evangelical distinctions, but I wouldn't call this 'open' evangelical. More like charismatic calvinist. 'Open' evos tend to be a lot more liturgical and tending to MOTR in their ceremonial (well, many of them are in parishes with a much higher tradition). Surplice or alb and stole are fairly common.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Max.
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Posted
20 July, 2009 23:08
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
A Church of England priest I know is careful to point out there is High Church and there is Anglo Catholic.
High Church likes dressing up, but no Haily Mary's. Anglo Catholics preach the Catholic faith.
I shall refrain from posting a response to this, but I'm sure you can all guess what my response would be ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Max.
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Posted
20 July, 2009 23:10
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
This would be my definitions of "the liturgical candle" in the Church of England. Feel free to correct me though.
Open Evangelical
-Services simply known by the times that they are celebrated at (The Ten-Thirty Meeting)
-No Altar... maybe a table brought in at communion time.
-No Liturgy except at Baptisms in which they will emphasise many times that they have to follow typical Anglican Protocol and how wonderful it is to be part of the Church of England.
-No robes, we're far too cool for robes!
-Lots of guitars, drums and a really nice photogenic worship leader on the stage.
I'm not particularly au fait with evangelical distinctions, but I wouldn't call this 'open' evangelical. More like charismatic calvinist. 'Open' evos tend to be a lot more liturgical and tending to MOTR in their ceremonial (well, many of them are in parishes with a much higher tradition). Surplice or alb and stole are fairly common.
St Mary's Bryanston Square is the Church I was thinking of when I was writing it. They are certainly not Calvinist theologically and I think they would label themselves as Open Evangelical or possibly simply as "Christian"
I'd say that Calvinism would probably fit better in the whole Traditional Evangelical slot (St Helen's Bishopsgate?)
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Angloid
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Posted
20 July, 2009 23:23
Maybe, as with the other end of the spectrum, London is different. (Though I have to say I just couldn't resist the alliteration of 'charismatic calvinist'. 'Charismatic', rather than 'open', evangelical is I think what Max was describing. Not that you can't be charismatic and open, or indeed catholic, motr etc.)
[ 20. July 2009, 22:26: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Autenrieth Road
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Posted
20 July, 2009 23:28
Is it meaningful to calibrate this altimeter at all? Do ever more picayune analyses of what may be no more than historical accidents or personal foibles at a particular church tell you anything more than "that's the way they do it there." What things do you expect to correlate once you've pegged a new-to-you collection of ceremony to a pre-made spot on your altimeter?
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Truth
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Patrick the less saintly
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Posted
21 July, 2009 00:08
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
A Church of England priest I know is careful to point out there is High Church and there is Anglo Catholic.
High Church likes dressing up, but no Haily Mary's. Anglo Catholics preach the Catholic faith.
I've heard this before and must point out that it is just wrong, wrong, wrong. The High Church movement existed long before the Oxford Movement that grew out of it and was not, and is not, simply a liturgical classification.
I'd like to use Doublethink's criteria to classify some parish churches with which I am familiar:
My London Parish (ASMS)
Height: well up there, but not the very highest. In the stratosphere rather than the ionosphere. Three sacred ministers, incense, big six on the altar, ad orientem celebration, bells at elevation, a small army of servers, lots of chanting. Ordinary of the Mass sung, usually in Latin. No birettas, no maniples.
Depth: pretty deep commitment to Catholicism.
Breadth: narrow, only uses CW Order I in traditional language for Masses and the BCP for the office. All sung services have traditional music.
Orbit: firmly in the orbit of Canterbury.
The Church of my Yoof, in a small Texas town
Height: MotR-low. One priest in cassock-alb and stole for liturgy of the word who donned a chasuble for the liturgy of the table, a second priest concelebrated in cassock-alb and stole. Two lights on the table with more behind it. Eucharist every Sunday and Wednesday but seldom on red-letter days. Ordinary of the Mass partially sung in English. VP celebration. No smells or bells at any time, ever. The sacrament was reserved in a tabernacle.
Depth: the Church was committed to the via media, but more Catholic elements tended to be underplayed.
Breadth: fairly broad with a contemporary all-age Eucharist every Sunday as well as the slightly more traditional sung Eucharist and a traditional-language spoken Eucharist.
Orbit: The only thing they got from Rome was certain post Vatican II liturgical styles, and those were filtered through the ECUSA hierarchy.
Another Church near my hometown
Height: MotR-high, with eucharistic vestments, smells and bells. Three sacred ministers and chanted gospel for Christmas and Easter only. Ordinary of the Mass entirely sung in English.
Depth: shaky, it was a lib-Cath place in a diocese not noted for being particularly liberal or particularly Catholic. The rector was and is a committed social liberal who agreed to play the part of a moderately Anglo-Catholic priest.
Breadth: fairly narrow, one said Mass in traditional language, missa cantata is contemporary language.
Orbit: Canterbury, and the Aff Cath side of Anglicanism in particular.
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LostinChelsea
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Posted
21 July, 2009 00:12
OK PD, I gotta ask. You say you're getting out more ... but surely it's on visitations within your denomination. How are you managing to get out to gather such a range (and quite a range, well beyond what I can claim to have witnessed) within The Episcopal Church?
And on another point, while there may be examples within each type, I'm rather curious about sheer numbers. I've seen a kabillion MOTR churches and only a handful of the others... either the unique parish in a diocese or the grouping in particularist dioceses (Virginia, for example). I have TEC friends who go on and on about the importance of maniples, but you could fit all the rectors of those TEC churches in my dining room.
Hmm, maybe I'll have them all over for sherry!
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Beeswax Altar
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Posted
21 July, 2009 00:21
Knowing TEC, Autenrieth Road's comment are more than likely true.
Using the altimeter of the OP, almost every church in TEC would fit into MOTR. I'll use my place as an example.
We never have incense. I like it. Most of the congregation likes it. There was an unfortunate incident with a thurible and the carpet many years ago. So, there is some reluctance to use it again. If I really wanted to use it on occasions, they probably would agree to it.
I never chant. Why? Because, I'm not that good at it. We have no choir. There are few people in the congregation with good enough voices to sing the responses. If we tried to do a sung service, it would be horrible. We do sing the gloria and sanctus.
The altar has two candles. There are eight on the shelf behind the altar with the aumbry/tabernacle (I'm drawing a sudden blank as to which it is). We always have one vested server who also acts as crucifer and acolyte. We don't have room for more.
The altar is large and faces west. It should face east. It would give us more space and most people would not care one way or the other. I preside from behind the altar using the altar book.
Ceremonial: People bow and genuflect upon entering. They kneel for all prayers. I bow at the incarnatus. I'm not sure what other people do (because I'm up front bowing). I genuflect, elevate, and genuflect while the server rings the sanctus bells. I use three crosses at the epipclesis and another three at the concluding doxology. I vest in chasuble, stole, and a contemporary alb with rolled collar mimicking an amice. I'm thinking about working in a maniple. The chalice is vested. I stay vested for the entire thing.
So...according to the altimeter...what would be MOTR or High? If we are MOTR, then nearly every church in TEC would qualify as MOTR. I've only been to a few places that would actually qualify as high. More places would qualify as low but their number is shrinking. Anglo-Catholic parishes would number under 50 (if that).
Churches just have a hodge podge of traditions that various rectors thrust upon them for the heck of it. It's my pet peeve. I think it causes ill will for no reason other than making the current rector happy.
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PD
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Posted
21 July, 2009 00:26
Lets see if I can refine things a bit. I was in a hurry when I wrote the OP.
Conservative Shacks tend to be Eastward facing and Rite 1; very occasionally 1928. Mainstream Shacks are westward facing and tend to have Rite 1 early, and Rite 2 late.
MOTR -
Low MOTR - alb and stole; optional chasuble. Robed servers. Fairly informal atmosphere. Kyrie/Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus sung at the main service. Not over blessed in the ceremonial department. Gospel Procession on festivals? Incense at Christmas?? Strong leaning towards "slow Mass" with lots of notices and what I call chit-chat.
Middle-MOTR
Celebrant in alb, stole and chasuble. Deacon and assisting clergy alb and stole. Servers in cassock-albs. A bit more formal feeling than Low-MOTR. Musical preferences about the same but maybe the psalm is chanted and the Preface and Lord's Prayer sung at big does. I always associate the Gospel procession with the M-MOTR places mainly because it is the most noticeable piece of ceremonial. The ceremonial surrounding the EP is still pretty subdued. Bread and wine taken into the hands at the Dominical Words, sign of the cross at the Epiclesis, prominant lesser elevation. Chances are that you will get incense at one of the Eucharists on major feasts.
MOTR-High
Pretty much the same as M-MOTR, there is a chance the deacon will be vested in dalmatic. Chanted psalm, with the celebrant sing the Preface, and sung Lord's Prayer most of the year. Bow at the Incarnats, and occasionally the Nicene Creed is sung rather than said. The ceremonial is a little more formal. The borderline high places may have elevations at the Dominical Words, and bells on occasion. Incense on major feasts. Music programmes very well developed in larger parish.
High
Modestly High church places have celebrant and a slack handful of servers, and pretty formal ceremonial. Bow/Genuflect at the Incarnatus. Elevations, genuflections and bells at the Dominical Words in the EP. Sign of the cross made several times in the Canon. Music a big art of the service. Incense on a larger selection of feasts.
High
The whole nine yards ceremnially all the way down to regular incense at the main Mass. Basically traditional or modern Anglo-Catholicism but with no Marianism, Benediction, and probably no interpolatons from the Missal.
Couple of English specialities.
Old Fashioned ConEvo
Straight forward BCP liturgy. MP and EP with HC once a month both am and pm. If robes are used - which they usually are in conservatie rural places - it is cassock, surplice, and tippet. My recollection is that the officiating presbyter is often assisted by a robed Reader, but any other assistants are likely to be in civvies. BCP MP and EP are usually chanted; HC spoken. Not much in the way of ceremonial gesture - just the sit, stand, swat/kneel of basic Anglican aerobics.
Otherwise relative C of E Churchmanship in tends to be (half) a notch lower than TEC churchmanship. The one exception is Anglo-Catholic which is pretty consistent except that American Anglo-Catholics use the 1979 BCP with catholic additions and English A-Cs is Modern Roman Rite or CW with the distinctively Anglican bits left out.
PD
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Autenrieth Road
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Posted
21 July, 2009 00:42
What does slotting a church into one of these ceremonial categories tell you?
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PD
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Posted
21 July, 2009 00:47
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
Knowing TEC, Autenrieth Road's comment are more than likely true.
Using the altimeter of the OP, almost every church in TEC would fit into MOTR. I'll use my place as an example.
We never have incense. I like it. Most of the congregation likes it. There was an unfortunate incident with a thurible and the carpet many years ago. So, there is some reluctance to use it again. If I really wanted to use it on occasions, they probably would agree to it.
I never chant. Why? Because, I'm not that good at it. We have no choir. There are few people in the congregation with good enough voices to sing the responses. If we tried to do a sung service, it would be horrible. We do sing the gloria and sanctus.
The altar has two candles. There are eight on the shelf behind the altar with the aumbry/tabernacle (I'm drawing a sudden blank as to which it is). We always have one vested server who also acts as crucifer and acolyte. We don't have room for more.
The altar is large and faces west. It should face east. It would give us more space and most people would not care one way or the other. I preside from behind the altar using the altar book.
Ceremonial: People bow and genuflect upon entering. They kneel for all prayers. I bow at the incarnatus. I'm not sure what other people do (because I'm up front bowing). I genuflect, elevate, and genuflect while the server rings the sanctus bells. I use three crosses at the epipclesis and another three at the concluding doxology. I vest in chasuble, stole, and a contemporary alb with rolled collar mimicking an amice. I'm thinking about working in a maniple. The chalice is vested. I stay vested for the entire thing.
So...according to the altimeter...what would be MOTR or High? If we are MOTR, then nearly every church in TEC would qualify as MOTR. I've only been to a few places that would actually qualify as high. More places would qualify as low but their number is shrinking. Anglo-Catholic parishes would number under 50 (if that).
Churches just have a hodge podge of traditions that various rectors thrust upon them for the heck of it. It's my pet peeve. I think it causes ill will for no reason other than making the current rector happy.
Matins,
I do tend to regard TEC as being overwhelmingly MOTR outfit. The nuances within MOTR often have as much to do with personal preference as churchmanship.
I would tend to rate my own shack as conservative MOTR, but there are some oddities. We have a monthly "Frankenmass." We also have a bit more chanting than is usual for M-MOTR as I like to sing the Collect and Proper Preface outside of Advent and Lent. However, no genuflection, no elevations, and no sanctus bells.
PD
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PD
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Posted
21 July, 2009 01:04
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
OK PD, I gotta ask. You say you're getting out more ... but surely it's on visitations within your denomination. How are you managing to get out to gather such a range (and quite a range, well beyond what I can claim to have witnessed) within The Episcopal Church?
And on another point, while there may be examples within each type, I'm rather curious about sheer numbers. I've seen a kabillion MOTR churches and only a handful of the others... either the unique parish in a diocese or the grouping in particularist dioceses (Virginia, for example). I have TEC friends who go on and on about the importance of maniples, but you could fit all the rectors of those TEC churches in my dining room.
Hmm, maybe I'll have them all over for sherry!
Actually, I was being a little bit sarcastic. Now that I have been kicked upstairs I don't get outside my own area, unless I have a HOB meeting or are on vacation. Most of the information was gathered 1999-2002, when we were travelling a fair amount, and I had no Sunday duties and we could go church-hopping. I also tend to seek out oddities. Maybe because I can be a bit odd myself. The other thing is that I have visited a fairly large range of conservative/Continuing Anglican Churches some of which are 1928 BCP, some of which are "1928," and some of which are Missal.
My own jurisdiction is mainly Low-MOTR either contemporary style (cassock-albs and stoles and westward facing but still 1928) or more traditional (surplice, stole and eastward facing). The higher places are MOTR.
Hope that makes things clearer.
PD
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Beeswax Altar
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Posted
21 July, 2009 01:47
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What does slotting a church into one of these ceremonial categories tell you?
If I'm visiting somewhere with multiple TEC churches, I need to know which place I would most enjoy. It would be helpful to have a way of describing them. It would help when talking about liturgical practices as a whole.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
21 July, 2009 03:08
And this alimeter means nothing in other Eccelesial Communities.
At the United Church of Canada shack I attend down the block:
1) The Lord's Table faces East.
2) The Minister only gowns for the Lord's Supper and Baptisms, thus only once a month or so.
3) The Minister turned up in t-shirts until he got flak for that.
4) The Minister still faces west when presiding at the Lord's Supper (you figure it out) and nobody really cares about the difference.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Cruet
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Posted
21 July, 2009 04:07
Patrick the less saintly,
Could you be refering to St. Paul's in San Antonio? If so, you descibed it perfectly.
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snake belly land
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FatherRobLyons
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# 14622
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Posted
21 July, 2009 04:24
I'll throw my practice into the fray here... peg me if you can.
On Sundays we have Eucharist at 0930. Matins is offered before hand, but lowkey, with one reading.
Altar faces liturgical east.
Cassock, Surplice, and Stole for celebrant (unless bishop, then either rochet, stole, and cope or rochet, black chimere, and stole)
Liturgical Colors: Gold, white, blue, violet, black, red, green
Pavement candlesticks flanking the altar (two total)
Reservation of the Sacrament
Icon crucifix behind Altar, and iconography is prevalent throughout the chapel.
Freshly baked unleavened bread is used.
Currently using a blend of the LCMS and WELS 3 year Lectionary. A substantial psalm is sung between OT and NT reading (at times, we use a metrical psalm, but generally responsorial).
Stand for invocation
Kneel for Confession
Stand for hymn of praise (Kyrie, Trisagion,
Gloria, or Monogenes)
Stand for collect
Sit for OT, Psalm, NT (unless Metrical psalm is sung, then stand)
Stand for Alleluia and Gospel
Sit for homily
Stand for Credo
Stand for General Intercessions
Sit for offertory
Altar set at offertory (by deacon when present)
Stand from Sursum Corda until Prayer of Humble Access
East celebration with sung preface on solemnities and feasts.
Eucharistic Prayer in 1662 fashion, with explicit epiclesis.
Sign of the cross at Epiclesis.
Chanted verba in Aramaic on solemnities and feasts, otherwise spoken in english.
Pick up bread and break it at words 'broke it', return it to paten and lay hands upon it for verba. Lay hands upon chalice for verba.
One bread and one cup, no flagons, second chalices, etc.
Agnus Dei immediately after verba.
Elevation at "The Gifts of God..." then all kneel for Prayer of Humble Access
Communion, standing about Altar.
Post-Communion prayer is the Lord's Prayer (standing to end)
Blessing
Hymn
Dismissal
Rob+
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
21 July, 2009 04:51
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
And this alimeter means nothing in other Eccelesial Communities.
I think it can be ported over to us non-Anglicans. How about this (Warning for Thread-Skimmers--this is not a rating system for Anglican churches!):
Low Free Church:
-No vestments ever
-No altar. May be movable communion table, used only for storing trays. Not front-and-center.
-Order of service is totally local custom. May be fixed from week to week or variable, but shows no effects of tradition outside that church [or its parent, if a satellite]
-Scripture readings, if any, are small bits incorporated into a talk
-No talk of "sacraments" -- may have communion, but treated as a simple act of sharing and no liturgical words used
High Free Church:
-Same as Low Free Church, only with emphasis on Believers' Baptism
Low MOTR Church:
-May be clerical robe, but wearing or not wearing is treated as pastor's or individual church's choice
-Liturgical color is not a factor
-Has altar or communion table, latter may be movable
-Order of service is basically fixed from week to week, and shows some effects of a parent tradition [for instance--a pattern of Gathering-Word-Communion-Sending]. May be some variable additions from week to week (i.e. special music)
-Sacraments (Big 2) - not necessarily "believers' baptism," Communion and Baptism celebrated infrequently
-Sacraments celebrated with "freestyle" wording--nothing from denominational texts
-People in pews may be expected to pray aloud simple, commonly-known prayers--the Lord's Prayer and Apostles' Creed, for instance
-A scripture "text" is read, lectionary or not is uncertain--appears to be somebody's choice
Middle MOTR Church:
-Vestments are the norm, and involve some sort of stole (robe and stole or cassock-alb and stole). May be not worn on several occasions each year.
-May pay attention to liturgical color
-Has altar or communion table
-Has Holy Communion on a regular schedule, at least once every two months at the main service
-Order of service is basically fixed from week to week, and shows some effects of a parent tradition [for instance--a pattern of Gathering-Word-Communion-Sending]. May be some variable additions from week to week (i.e. special music)
-Sacraments are celebrated with the same basic ordo each time, with almost no variation in wording. Still may be "freestyle," but the wording is such that it could be remembered and repeated by those who hear it frequently.
-People may be expected to follow and contribute voice to a liturgical order in a book or bulletin
-Uses a lectionary of some sort, but can be changed on clerical whim
High MOTR Church:
-Vestments are the norm. Cassock-alb and stole, with possible chasuble for Holy Communion. May not wear vestments on several occasions yearly.
-Liturgical color traditions are followed
-Has altar or communion table
-Holy Communion at least once monthly at the main service
-Sacraments are celebrated consistently using a fixed liturgical order
-No "freestyle" liturgy at all
-People in pews are expected to follow and contribute voice to a liturgical order in a book or bulletin
-Uses a lectionary
High Church:
-Vestments required, chasuble for Holy Communion
-Liturgical colors taken seriously
-Has altar or communion table
-Holy Communion weekly at main service
-Follows consistent liturgical order
-People know liturgically what happens from week to week
-Lectionary obeyed
-Dignity and ceremony are emphasized
Nosebleed High:
-Are these people pretending to be Catholics/Orthodox or what?
Sober Preacher's Kid, based on what you gave I would place your church at Low MOTR level.
Others? How would you modify the list above?
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
21 July, 2009 07:42
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Patrick is right, more dimensions needed.
Perchance:
Height = ceremonial
Depth = catholicism
Breadth = variety of services over church's whole schedule
Orbit - around Canterbury / Rome etc
Perhaps one could develop a points system for the different dimensions - five sarum points to your height for a maniple used correctly, plus ten to your breadth if you have robed choir & praise band on the same day ...
For my own parish...
Height - Pulpit oriented MOTR with occasional breaks to both the High side and the Low side.
Depth - Protestant High Church. In other words the five solas, plus a high view of baptism, the Eucharist, and the Apostolic Succession. The present Rector is inclined to a mild version of Predestination. His immediate predecessor was mildly Arminian.
Breadth - modest. The Eucharist is the main service, but that includes a monthly Frankenmass. MP and EP all make regular appearences in the schedule. Music and ceremonial firmly traditional
Orientation - Canterbury via St Louis - i.e. Continuing Anglican.
PD
[ 21. July 2009, 06:45: Message edited by: PD ]
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
21 July, 2009 10:21
My Church: Roman Catholic
Height: Unfussy, fairly low Charismatic Catholic, No real dressing up, no fussy first communions and community made up mainly of converts. Modern Worship Style, 4 Candles on the Wooden Altar at the front, Very small wooden crucifix at the front but nothing particularly ornate. Guitars and Djembe tend to be the instruments of choice.
Depth: Roman Catholic: Very broad with people ranging from fairly conservative Catholic to liberal 60's-esque Catholicism. Current priest is a married ex-Evangelical Protestant Minister who is known to preach sermons about how sinful it is to not fulfil Sunday obligation, how Pagans and Non Christians like to persecute the Church and how stupid they are condemning themselves by not listening to the Gospel and accepting Jesus.
The Church would probably be quite happy to use the label "Evangelical Catholic".
Breadth: The Celebration of the Eucharist is central to our Catholic faith, Daily Office is said by a team of lay volunteers, lay led Holy Communion (from the reserved sacrament) is also held Daily and house groups are held throughout the local area.
Orientation: Rome, Rome, Rome. We're Roman Catholic and we're not afraid to say that. If you turn your Bibles to Matthew 16 we can quite clearly see that Peter was the first Pope and that the authority of THE Church is instituted at this point in the Gospel.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
21 July, 2009 10:36
Just a couple of points in relation to PDs OP -
In Australia, traditional low church shacks:
-May or may not have altar lights
-Surplus, or alb and stole for preist, but unlikely to have robed servers (this is more MOTR.)
-The Agnus Dei is likely to be omitted.
-Minimal manual gestures.
-No sign of the cross (including absolution or blessing)... Although in my experience, in low churches there's always a couple in the pews who quietly make the sign of the cross at the right times.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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Posted
21 July, 2009 13:31
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
I think it would be helpful to have two liturgical axes, one for Protestant-Catholic and one for Informal-Formal. Some shacks have ceremonial that is informal but still clearly Catholic, whilst others have very formal liturgies that are devoid of most outward Catholic signs.
Very, very true!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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FatherRobLyons
Shipmate
# 14622
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Posted
21 July, 2009 14:01
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Patrick is right, more dimensions needed.
Perchance:
Height = ceremonial
Depth = catholicism
Breadth = variety of services over church's whole schedule
Orbit - around Canterbury / Rome etc
Perhaps one could develop a points system for the different dimensions - five sarum points to your height for a maniple used correctly, plus ten to your breadth if you have robed choir & praise band on the same day ...
Height - Follow very specific ceremonial that is repeated in all services of the same type. Only Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, and the Triduum see significant changes to ceremonial.
Depth - Eastern Christian theology, leaning towards West Syrian. Nicene Creed sine Fliloque. Considering adopting the Russian Orthodox (15th century) rescension of the Athanasian Creed. Strongly incarnational. My preaching focuses on both doctrinal and historical accuracy and life application.
Breadth - Eucharist is principal service on Sundays and Holy Days. Daily Communion is the preferred goal, though by celebrating a Frankenmass on non-festal Weekdays. I have nothing against any particular form vesture, but I generally make use of cassock, surplice, and stole these days.
Orientation - This is a hard one. I'd say more towards Syrian Antioch or Lebanese Maronite, but with Anglo-Lutheran ceremonial and a lack of prayers to the saints.
Rob+
[ 21. July 2009, 13:01: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
21 July, 2009 14:02
And, as someone was no doubt fearing, here is my re-ordering of PD's list at the lower end as it might be found in the Church of England. I've kept his categories and commented on them rather than add more of my own.
quote:
PD's field guide to TEC churchmanship.
LOW
- West facing altar - West-facing all but universal here, even in high places.
- two lights - Candles on the table are rare in low parishes, but not unknown.
- Surplice or alb and stole for the Eucharist In evangelical Anglican parishes in England it has become more common for priests to robe up for the Eucharist, and is now the norm (it wasn't twenty-five years ago). Cassock and surplice with stole is usual, cassock-alb would be a mark of MOTR-to-high, though I think its creeping in. But you can still find places (especially at the conservative-evangelical end) where the priest will celebrate in clerical shirt and dog-collar; and perhaps rather more (especially at the charismatic-evangelical end), where the priest will celebrate in ordinary clothes, even unto T-shirt and jeans.
- robed servers on Sundays Robed servers are unknown - to us a "server" is the person who distributes the bread or wine and is quite likely an layperson who comes up from the pew at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer.
- Music - Kyrie or Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei Amongst evangelicals probably none of the regular liturgy is sung, unless its one of the tiny number of parishes that keep up with 1662 and Anglican chant. And no Latin other than perhaps at a special occasion as a sort of concert piece. Some places will use worship choruses or Taize or Iona songs in place of canticles or bits of liturgy.
- several hymns Several songs or hymns, often with a worship band rather than organ or piano. The lower down the candle the more singing there is. We might have four old-style hymns in the main part of the service as well as a little five-minute "worship session" with two or three more modern choruses. In a clearly charismatic-evangelical parish there might only be two or even only one hymn (though there nearly always is at least one) but "worship session" could last ten or fifteen minutes or more (& I have seen forty-five, but that was back in the day when "singing in the spirit" was fashionable)
- Not much in the way ceremonial gestures. Bow in and out and maybe at the end of the EP. Sign of Cross at absolution and blessing. Some parishioners may cross themselves privately, but the celebrant is unlikely to do so. If anyone bows its because they are Korean or Japanese.
- A chance of MP as the main service every other Sunday in MA and VA. That was normal in evangelical CofE parishes up till the 1980s but most of the "Open Evangelical" stream now have weekly Communion as the main service. There are many exceptions though, especially amongst the charismatics. Our own parish has been moving back away from Communion as the main service - we did it every week ten years ago, now its more likely to be twice a month or even only once.
- Midweek Eucharist fairly common. Depends more on the size and location of the parish than its churchmanship. I'd say that one midweek Eucharist is common in urban parishes (for some reason usually on Wednesdays) but more than one is rare. Rural and outer suburban parishes are more likely to be Sundays only. There are likely to be non-liturgical prayer meetings and bible studies in an evangelical parish of any size.
[ 21. July 2009, 13:03: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
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Posted
21 July, 2009 14:31
I'll give this a go with my parish:
Height - Moderately high or high-MOTR. (East-facing celebration; two altar lights; eucharistic vestments including maniple; lay reader and acolyte wear amice and alb; bells at Sanctus, Words of Institution, etc.; elevation and genuflection during the consecration, sung collect, Nicene Creed, Gloria, Sanctus and Benedictus, Agnus Dei, etc; incense on major holy days when practical; small but prominent statue/shrine to Our Lady of Walsingham; 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei, Centurion's Prayer. The priest, lay reader and acolyte use the preparatory prayers from the missal, including the Confiteor, in the sacristy prior to the service.)
Depth - Prayer Book Catholic. The parish has traditionalist paleo-Anglicans from a variety of churchmanships and professes a Catholic identity while remaining dedicated to the BCP tradition.
Breadth - Sunday Eucharist is the main service, with evening prayer, low mass and Bible study on Wednesday nights. Other activities include Anglican Church Women, vacation bible school, etc.
Orientation - Anglican Catholic Church. Like PD said: "Canterbury via St Louis - i.e. Continuing Anglican."
[ 21. July 2009, 13:32: Message edited by: scribbler ]
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
21 July, 2009 15:06
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
21 July, 2009 15:10
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?
"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you...'?
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
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Posted
21 July, 2009 15:24
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?
Priest: "Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof."
Congregation: "But speak the word only and my soul shall be healed."
---
There may another name for it. But in any case, in my parish this is repeated thrice before the last ringing of the bell signals the people come forward to receive communion.
[ 21. July 2009, 14:25: Message edited by: scribbler ]
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
21 July, 2009 15:30
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?
Priest: "Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof."
Congregation: "But speak the word only and my soul shall be healed."
---
There may another name for it. But in any case, in my parish this is repeated thrice before the last ringing of the bell signals the people come forward to receive communion.
Scribbler, does your parish move the Gloria to its proper place or retain Cranmer's defacement?
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scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
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Posted
21 July, 2009 15:32
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What is "Centurion's Prayer"?
Priest: "Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof."
Congregation: "But speak the word only and my soul shall be healed."
---
There may another name for it. But in any case, in my parish this is repeated thrice before the last ringing of the bell signals the people come forward to receive communion.
Scribbler, does your parish move the Gloria to its proper place or retain Cranmer's defacement?
Yes, it's moved to the historic position.
(Edited to actually answer the question.)
[ 21. July 2009, 14:33: Message edited by: scribbler ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
21 July, 2009 16:40
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'll give this a go with my parish:
Height ... 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei...
Please, please tell me this is a typo...
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
21 July, 2009 16:57
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
For my own parish...
Height - Pulpit oriented MOTR with occasional breaks to both the High side and the Low side.
Depth - Protestant High Church. In other words the five solas, plus a high view of baptism, the Eucharist, and the Apostolic Succession. The present Rector is inclined to a mild version of Predestination. His immediate predecessor was mildly Arminian.
Breadth - modest. The Eucharist is the main service, but that includes a monthly Frankenmass. MP and EP all make regular appearences in the schedule. Music and ceremonial firmly traditional
Orientation - Canterbury via St Louis - i.e. Continuing Anglican.
PD [/QB]
I probably should add that the parish and I do not share churchmanship on all points. To some extent I have chosen to make an accomodation to some of their preferences.
My own preferences:
Height: Prayer Book Catholic - 1928 Sung Mass as the main service; vestments; two lights; Sarum-y ceremonial; incense.
Depth: Catholic Anglican. Bible and Seven Councils based; suspicious of "Roman additions and Puritan subtractions."
Breadth: If it is in the BCP we do it sooner or later. MP and EP daily; Mass on Holydays.
Orientation: Canterbury via St Louis
PD
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scribbler
Shipmate
# 12268
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:02
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'll give this a go with my parish:
Height ... 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei...
Please, please tell me this is a typo...
Wow! Maybe that would be some celebration of Moses' experience?
No, just an embarrassing, if humorous, typo.
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:08
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Low MOTR - alb and stole; optional chasuble. Robed servers. Fairly informal atmosphere. Kyrie/Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus sung at the main service. Not over blessed in the ceremonial department. Gospel Procession on festivals? Incense at Christmas?? Strong leaning towards "slow Mass" with lots of notices and what I call chit-chat.
Middle-MOTR
Celebrant in alb, stole and chasuble. Deacon and assisting clergy alb and stole. Servers in cassock-albs. A bit more formal feeling than Low-MOTR. Musical preferences about the same but maybe the psalm is chanted and the Preface and Lord's Prayer sung at big does. I always associate the Gospel procession with the M-MOTR places mainly because it is the most noticeable piece of ceremonial. The ceremonial surrounding the EP is still pretty subdued. Bread and wine taken into the hands at the Dominical Words, sign of the cross at the Epiclesis, prominant lesser elevation. Chances are that you will get incense at one of the Eucharists on major feasts.
MOTR-High
Pretty much the same as M-MOTR, there is a chance the deacon will be vested in dalmatic. Chanted psalm, with the celebrant sing the Preface, and sung Lord's Prayer most of the year. Bow at the Incarnats, and occasionally the Nicene Creed is sung rather than said. The ceremonial is a little more formal. The borderline high places may have elevations at the Dominical Words, and bells on occasion. Incense on major feasts. Music programmes very well developed in larger parish.
I think PD is somewhat over-optimistic about the likelihood of finding incense or sung credos &tc at anything Middle of the Road. Thinking of the places I'm familiar with round here, only the definitely Anglo-Catholic ones feature sung Preface or incense.
Our place fits closest with MOTR-high, except no incense, no sung prefaces (although we do have choral mass settings -- on principal feasts) and we do sung Mattins every other week as the main of our 5 Sunday services.
I would also suggest adding a 'Prosperity' axis to your schema. Richer (larger) parishes are more likely to have robust music programmes, larger well-drilled serving teams &tc that may make a place seem superficially high. In our case I'm fairly certain our deacon wears dalmatics because the parish could afford to buy them, not necessarily through any theological rationale.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:08
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'll give this a go with my parish:
Height ... 1928 BCP liturgy with added Orate Fratres, Ecce Anus Dei...
Please, please tell me this is a typo...
Wow! Maybe that would be some celebration of Moses' experience?
...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[ 21. July 2009, 16:09: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:14
My own preferences:
Height: Evangelical and Charismatic. Good worship group (but not too showy), LCD Projectors, Modern Worship Music, Plain Building, Small Altar Table with a couple of tea lights scattered on it which is in the midst of the gathered community. Ambo is up high on a stage at the front with a band surrounding it and a big plain wooden cross on the back wall. Priest vested in a lightweight white chasuble with a liturgically coloured stole over the top. No other dressing up as we wouldn't want it to be too fussy or showy.
Depth: Charismatic Catholic. Fairly conservative and evangelical Roman Catholic doctrine, authority of the Church's teachings emphasised and devotion to the Blessed Sacrament encouraged (with daily adoration of the Blessed sacrament available at the Church) and with daily confession available as well as Bible Study groups and Rosary devotion groups.
Breadth: The Eucharist must be central to daily worship with Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament taking place daily. All celebrated in a Charismatic manner with a full time worship coordinator playing guitar.
Orientation: Roman Catholic.
A short little note, as of yet my ideal Church community does not exist... yet ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Max.
[ 21. July 2009, 16:15: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Patrick the less saintly
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:17
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I would also suggest adding a 'Prosperity' axis to your schema. Richer (larger) parishes are more likely to have robust music programmes, larger well-drilled serving teams &tc that may make a place seem superficially high. In our case I'm fairly certain our deacon wears dalmatics because the parish could afford to buy them, not necessarily through any theological rationale.
Agreed, although with certain caveats. Some prosperous MotR parishes are very sloppy. The small town parish I grew up in had mostly middle class parishioners and a large budget, but at most two servers (usually poorly drilled) and a choir that was, at best, adequate and frequently not even that. My London parish, although historically quite wealthy, probably has a smaller budget these days than does the parish of my yoof, yet it has a professional choir, two music directors, two organists and an army of servers. One difference is that the church of my yoof has 9 lay members of staff, whilst my London parish has five or maybe six, only one or two of whom are not directly and exclusively involved with the music.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Prester John
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:41
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I think it can be ported over to us non-Anglicans. How about this (Warning for Thread-Skimmers--this is not a rating system for Anglican churches!):
Low Free Church:
-No vestments ever
-No altar. May be movable communion table, used only for storing trays. Not front-and-center.
-Order of service is totally local custom. May be fixed from week to week or variable, but shows no effects of tradition outside that church [or its parent, if a satellite]
-Scripture readings, if any, are small bits incorporated into a talk
-No talk of "sacraments" -- may have communion, but treated as a simple act of sharing and no liturgical words used
High Free Church:
-Same as Low Free Church, only with emphasis on Believers' Baptism
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Olaf
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Posted
21 July, 2009 17:58
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
There are at least one or two gradations between these two.
What would you add?
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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