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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Ecclesiantics Altimeter
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
The Church youth camp I went to always seemed to mix the chalice so that the contents were, at an absolute maximum, 50% wine.
Port is the almost universal choice in the ECUSA, perhaps because it is sweet enough that even small children don't mind the taste and because it is strong enough that it still tastes like wine when mixed with water. Well, in as much as port ever tastes like wine. A boy at my school, whose parents owned a fairly poncey restaurant, asked our chaplain why he didn't get some 'good' wine for school Eucharists, to which the chaplain responded with mock indignation but perfectly sincere theology that 'one doesn't need good wine for it to be the Blood of Christ'.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marginal Catholic:
Max, is that wine approved as valid matter? The validity of the sacrament is in question if the bread and wine are not valid.
The GIRM says:
322. The wine for the eucharistic celebration must be from the fruit of the grapevine (cf. Lk 22:18), natural, and unadulterated, that is, without admixture of extraneous substances.
323. Diligent care should be taken to ensure that the bread and wine intended for the Eucharist are kept in a perfect state of conservation: that is, that the wine does not turn to vinegar nor the bread spoil or become too hard to be broken easily.
Fairtrade Co-op Wine and Kosher Wine are both acceptable as they don't tend to have sweeteners or colourings put in (so they are unadulterated) and because it's one bottle per mass, it doesn't go bad at that particular mass.
There is nothing in the rules which say that it has to be wine made by monks in southern France.
Max. who is already planning a New Years Eve mass with champaign in an undisclosed location
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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FreeJack
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# 10612
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Posted
Best not to add much water to the chalice, in these 'swine flu' days. Alcohol is a natural disinfectant, and communion wine is usually stronger than house wine, but if you dilute it 50% then that is not really going to work as well.
Obviously if you mix communion wine 50:50 with a spirit like gin then its anti-flu properties are much improved.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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GoodCatholicLad
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# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Ours is Cooperative Fairtrade Red Wine (of varying types). Sometimes we use Kosher Wine ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Anything not used in the chalice that day, is left in the bottle at the back of the Church for anybody to have at Coffee time!
Max.
When you mentioned kosher wine I hope you don't mean Manishevitz or Mogen David! Both of those wines are made from Concord red grapes which are very sweet. Those wines remind me of Welch's Grape Juice, mixed with rubbing alcohol.
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All you have is right now.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I have always used port, and mixed the chalice, but with only a few drops of water. Most sacramental wines are far too sweet and sticky.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have always used port, and mixed the chalice, but with only a few drops of water. Most sacramental wines are far too sweet and sticky.
PD
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I am trying to imagine a wine sweeter or more sticky than port, Tokaji, which I have never been lucky enough to sample, is the only thing that springs to mind and, given its cost, I don't see that being used in the chalice anytime soon, although I know it was the favourite of certain Popes, including Benedict XIV who is said to have come up with the following, rather lame, Latin pun: "Benedicta sit terra, quae te germinavit, benedicta sit mulier, quae te misit. Benedictus sum, qui te bibo."
[ 28. July 2009, 04:43: Message edited by: Patrick the less saintly ]
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
^^^ "Tokaji" - anglicised to "Tokay"?
Hmmm - never thought of Benny getting shitfaced on the same wine namechecked by Noel Coward in "Bittersweet"...
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
If you're after a superb sweet wine with a good port-level alcohol content, you can't go past a liqueur muscat from Rutherglen or Corowa. Bt as I've noted before, as did Patrick's chaplain, the Eucharist is not an occasion for a wine tasting.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
When you mentioned kosher wine I hope you don't mean Manishevitz or Mogen David!
...although I do remember being served a Manishevitz champagne at a Jewish Community center once which was almost palatable--certainly the best thing I've ever had with their name on it. Still, I was younger then--my memories may have the rosy glow of time on them.
Most of the wines made in Israel are kosher, and would be available in any decent wine store (if your town has a Jewish community of any size, you can probably find a grocery store which carries them). I do think the flash pasteurization dulls the flavor and complexity, in spite of what they claim. Of course, I suppose it is possible I wouldn't find it all that complex and flavorful even without the pasteurization...
The one good thing about kosher wines is that they won't have sulfites--particularly good to remember if the priest is asthmatic.
While I certainly think the requirements of a communion wine are different from the requirements of the accompaniment to one's standing rib roast, I don't think that is an excuse to use Two-Buck Chuck either. Like everything else the church uses in its celebration of the Eucharist, it should be the best that the church can reasonably afford. That still leaves a lot of wiggle room.
Generally speaking, I tend to find "sacramental" wines about as good for the Sacrament as I find "cooking wine" for cooking. If you wouldn't drink it, you shouldn't cook with it and you shouldn't use it for the Eucharist...but that might be my inner snob showing through.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Alcohol is a natural disinfectant, and communion wine is usually stronger than house wine
That works with bacteria and fungi. Most of them are killed at about 9-10% alcohol, and almost all at 14-15% (which is why the strongest naturally brewed beers, wines & ciders are all just over 10% - any stronger and the fermenting organisms die)
But its irrelevant to viruses. You can't kill them because they aren't alive. To get rid of them you have to denature the proteins and nucleic acids in them. So you want bleach, or strong alcohol (over 50%), or direct sunlight (which does in the RNA in flu particles), strong acids, etc. etc. (I'm not sure if saturated brine would work)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
To get rid of them you have to denature the proteins and nucleic acids in them. So you want ... direct sunlight
Which would be a problem this 'summer'. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
In Toronto, one of our Anglo-Catholic shrines is traditional Prayer Book Catholic, and one is modern Anglo-Papalist. This poses a problem for someone like me who prefers to worship in a traditional Anglo-Papalist shack.
So I have to go to St Thomas's, Huron Street, if I want AO celebration, maniples, and a six-colour sequence.
But I have to go to St Mary Magdalene if I want Evensong and Benediction (instead of "Devotions" to the veiled Sacrament at St T's, which may or may not involve actual Benediction at the climax), Asperges before Mass and Angelus after, minor propers, Stations of the Cross, rosary groups, High Mass on Marian feast days (only Candlemas at St T's), and the New English Hymnal.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have always used port, and mixed the chalice, but with only a few drops of water. Most sacramental wines are far too sweet and sticky.
PD
I am trying to imagine a wine sweeter or more sticky than port, Tokaji, which I have never been lucky enough to sample, is the only thing that springs to mind and, given its cost, I don't see that being used in the chalice anytime soon, although I know it was the favourite of certain Popes, including Benedict XIV who is said to have come up with the following, rather lame, Latin pun: "Benedicta sit terra, quae te germinavit, benedicta sit mulier, quae te misit. Benedictus sum, qui te bibo."
Ah, but Royal Tokaji is typically drunk chilled which takes the edge off the taste.
(Do take the time to sample some, by the way... it may make you look a little like a Philip Pullman enthusiast, but then there are many worse things to be than that!)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
A boy at my school, whose parents owned a fairly poncey restaurant, asked our chaplain why he didn't get some 'good' wine for school Eucharists, to which the chaplain responded with mock indignation but perfectly sincere theology that 'one doesn't need good wine for it to be the Blood of Christ'.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
On the contrary, there is a Canonical requirement in the CofE that it should be "the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome".
So, no Chateau Washpot.
Unfortunately a Canon of which all too many sacristans appear to be unaware.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
A boy at my school, whose parents owned a fairly poncey restaurant, asked our chaplain why he didn't get some 'good' wine for school Eucharists, to which the chaplain responded with mock indignation but perfectly sincere theology that 'one doesn't need good wine for it to be the Blood of Christ'.
On the contrary, there is a Canonical requirement in the CofE that it should be "the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome".
So, no Chateau Washpot.
Unfortunately a Canon of which all too many sacristans appear to be unaware.
This is a serious point about BCP theology - the Bread and Wine which are to be offered and sanctified are not to be the phoney simulacra of a rarified priestly caste, but actual, ordinary bread such as would be served at any meal of friends. Both should ideally, therefore, be of the kind that one would have with a normal dinner. This suggests that the wine should not be the weird syrupy concoction one normally encounters, although nor should it be a fine vintage Bordeaux - just normal plonk is fine.
(and remember ABC!)
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Flinging wide the gates...
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
nor should it be a fine vintage Bordeaux
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Actually who cares much about canon law in the C of E? Not vicars or priests it seems to me, lol.
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Probably only on an altimeter of the 1920s
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?
If you mean the scarves Readers wear then on a one to ten scale I guess they go from about 3 to 9.
The lowest twenty percent probably won't be robing anyway, and even if they are they don't really mind whether a lay preacher is licensed as a Reader or not so don't much care whether they wear a scarf or not. Some of them might even object to the scarf because it looks pretentious, as if the Reader thought they were better than any other lay person.
The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass, and the celebrant always preaches, and anyway, Father Knows Best. If they find themselves lumbered with a Reader who won't go away they'll shove him in a dalmatic and call him a sub-deacon.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass, and the celebrant always preaches, and anyway, Father Knows Best. If they find themselves lumbered with a Reader who won't go away they'll shove him in a dalmatic and call him a sub-deacon.
You laugh, but FiF Readers are sometimes found sporting blue scapulars, I suppose because they consider tippets Protestant, or, more licitly, because they don't approve of the custom of wearing them over albs. Although I've never encountered one in the wild and I think ken is right that the spikiest churches don't have much use for them.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?
The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass, and the celebrant always preaches, and anyway, Father Knows Best. If they find themselves lumbered with a Reader who won't go away they'll shove him in a dalmatic and call him a sub-deacon.
Dalmatic or tunicle? A tunicle worn by a sub-deacon, is similar to a dalmatic worn by a deacon, but slightly less elaborate to indicate the lower rank. A dalmatic is embroidered with two 'bars' on the dorsal side, whereas the tunicle only has one 'bar'.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The highest ten percent have no real place for Readers because every service is Communion, sorry, Mass,
On the contrary, Anglo-Catholic parishes usually have Morning and Evening Prayer daily, which is rather more than usual outside of Cathedrals and Oxbridge Chapels. What I think you mean is that the main Sunday service is always a Mass and that Mass is celebrated at times other than Sundays and major feasts (frequently daily).
quote:
and the celebrant always preaches
Usually, but not always true in Anglo-Catholic parishes with which I am familiar. When there is a guest preacher, he or she does not usually celebrate. The ordinary of the diocese and Metropolitan Archbishop usually celebrate and preach, of course, but they are not really guests in or visitors to the parish. Other bishops and archbishops as well as other priests do not usually celebrate, although they may concelebrate if the parish has gone over to modernist liturgical fads.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Actually who cares much about canon law in the C of E? Not vicars or priests it seems to me, lol.
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?
Probably only on an altimeter of the 1920s
I meant Blue stoles that those ordained priest apparently wear somewhere, but only in the Dreamy / Dearmy world of St Chad, perhaps! lol
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
lol
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
although they may concelebrate if the parish has gone over to modernist liturgical fads.
Bloody Orthodox and their pesky modernism.
Thurible
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Actually who cares much about canon law in the C of E? Not vicars or priests it seems to me, lol.
Where are blue stoles on the Altimeter?
Probably only on an altimeter of the 1920s
I meant Blue stoles that those ordained priest apparently wear somewhere, but only in the Dreamy / Dearmy world of St Chad, perhaps! lol
Speaking the truth in Hostly love ON
Laetare, you have repeated comments of this kind regarding St Chad on several threads. As per commandment 4, if you have a conflict with another poster - whether general or specific to a thread - take it to hell. Don't feud here.
Speaking the truth in Hostly love OFF
Doublethink
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Dalmatic or tunicle?
There are Some Things that Man was Not Meant to Know.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Whoops, sorry Mr Host.
I have no problem actually, my comment was meant as a joke, but I will be more careful next time,
On Altimeter: I'd say Catholic in C of E sense is:
Advertised times of confession
Walsingham pilgrimage regularly
Weekday massES (not just one)
Are v good indicators, below which one should not go, lol.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Advertised times of confession
Indeed. And one can discern just how catholic a parish really is by the length of the queues for the sacrament of penance immediately before the major feasts (or not).
Posts: 591 | From: Here | Registered: Aug 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Don't think I've ever been to a Catholic parish then!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Don't think I've ever been to a Catholic parish then!
Thurible
Ditto
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Well, neither do you.
I've always been intrigued by the dearth of penitents at most churches. A previous parish has had scheduled confessions for most of Shrove Tuesday and Ash Wednesday. With a few exceptions, the only ones whom I know went (and I'm sure there were a couple who went whom I didn't see when I was pottering about church) were those 'brought up' under a previous incumbent. (They were the same ones who received on the tongue, crossed themselves at various points discouraged nowadays, knelt when the Blessed Sacrament was carried past them, etc.) 'Liturgical catechesis' really seems to have died on the whole in the past seventy years!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Dalmatic or tunicle?
There are Some Things that Man was Not Meant to Know.
My explanation about the difference between a dalmatic and a tunicle - you can take my word for it.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Well, neither do you.
?????
Neither do you recognize yours as a Catholic parish, given that you've referred to it as MOTR several times on the boards recently.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
We're very lucky. We generally have a line for weekly confessions, and on Good Friday, some had to be turned away before the Liturgy because of time constraints.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Well, neither do you.
?????
Neither do you recognize yours as a Catholic parish, given that you've referred to it as MOTR several times on the boards recently.
Indeed - I hadn't intended it to be opaque.
Thurible
[ 01. August 2009, 18:42: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
On reflection, it is more complicated. In the old days there was a rating system - Daily mass, Sung Eucharist every Sunday, Confessions and reservation. We have 3/4 - the daily services are at the other church.
Then there were extras like:
incense - we have on greater festivals
full vestments - always
full Holy Week ceremonies - always
statues/icons and votive lights
6 candles on or around the altar - yes
emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - yes
regular use of holy oils for baptisms, confirmations and anointing the sick - yes
More importantly, we anglo-catholics claim that the C of E is the catholic church of this realm: our orders are valid, our eucharists valid etc. In that sense, every C of E parish is a catholic parish.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
More importantly, we anglo-catholics claim that the C of E is the catholic church of this realm
Nothing particulalrly Anglo-Catholic about that, So do the Church Society and Reform.
quote:
:our orders are valid, our eucharists valid etc.
Presumably everyone who attends Anglican worship believes that or they 'd go somewhere else?
quote:
In that sense, every C of E parish is a catholic parish.
Of course. As are Presbyterian parishes in Scotland, in exactly he same sense.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
On reflection, it is more complicated. In the old days there was a rating system - Daily mass, Sung Eucharist every Sunday, Confessions and reservation. We have 3/4 - the daily services are at the other church.
Then there were extras like:
incense - we have on greater festivals
full vestments - always
full Holy Week ceremonies - always
statues/icons and votive lights
6 candles on or around the altar - yes
emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - yes
regular use of holy oils for baptisms, confirmations and anointing the sick - yes
My Catholic Parish (Capital 'C') is also 3/4, Confessions heard for 10 minutes before Mass.
Incense - In a bowl at some Festivals
Full Vestments - Only on Sundays and only with certain Priests
Holy Week - Yes
Statues/Icons - Yes
Votive Candles - Only in front of one statue
6 candles - No
Emphasis on the Sacrament rather than the Word/Sermon - I actually think that they tend to go hand in hand, they're both important. Probably more emphasis on the proclaimation of the Word than the Sermon, the Sacrament is meaningless without the foundation stone which is the Word.
Regular use of oils - Usually ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Confirmations and Annointing - Yes
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
What exactly in an Anglican context does the phrase 'full holy Week ceremonies or services ' mean ?
Does it mean 'services every day of Holy Week' ?
Does it mean ' all services of Holy Week as contained in the Book of Common Prayer ?
Does it mean ' all services as in pre Vat 2 roman Missal' ?
Does it mean ' all services as in present Roman Missal' ?
Or does it mean non of these ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Of the ten or so Anglican churches in our Deanery at least one has 15/15 of Leo & Max's list, another two or three have 12 or 13 or more (the most common missing one is probably Confession)
But on the other hand there are at least two churches that score zero on the list
I think you could probably find a CofE parish within walking distance of here with any given score.
We would have been at the very bottom of the list twenty years ago but like most so-called "open evangelicals" we've been moving up:
- Daily mass - no, not even every Sunday
- Sung Eucharist every Sunday - no, never
- Confessions - no, never
- reservation - no, but sometimes pre-sanctified bread is taken to sick or housebound
- incense - no, other than as a decorative part of quiet evening services
- full vestments - depends what you mean by "full". Traditionally a cassock and surplice place, but no vestments at all for about half the sevices. Have been moving up the candle fast and cassock-albs with stoles have been spotted on ocasion
- full Holy Week ceremonies - again, depends what you mean, but this year we had twelve services in eight days, so that's pretty full.
- statues - no
- icons - very occasionally make an appearance as part of a sermon or at a vaguely alt-worshippy evening or midweek service
- votive lights - not regularly, though some might make an appearance now and again
- 6 candles on or around the altar - no candles regularly, sometimes one or two on special occasions. Well, Easter anyway. There can be any number of candles not on the table,
- emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - other way round
- holy oils for baptisms - no
- oils for confirmations - that's up to the bishop, so usually yes
- oils for anointing the sick - yes
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
In my Catholic (also capital C, but with the prefix Anglo-), we have the following:
Daily Mass: Three of them, in fact
Sung Eucharist every Sunday: and for other major feasts, of course
Confessions: offered twice a day and more frequently in the days leading up to Lent, Easter and Christmas.
Incense -Always for services with music and a sermon (High Masses and Solemn Evensongs)
Full Vestments - Vested Three Ministers for Solemn Masses, celebrant in cope for Solemn Evensong, cassock and surplice for other services of Morning and Evening Prayer.
Holy Week - Palm Sunday, Tenebrae, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Vigil, Easter Day
Statues/Icons - One statue only (of the BVM), but the walls and reredos are covered in sacred imagery
Votive Candles - In front of Mary
6 candles - At least, more for Easter of Corpus Christi
Emphasis on the Sacrament rather than the Word/Sermon - Umm, not sure. Both are celebrated with a great deal of dignity and thought.
Regular use of oils - I suspect so, but have not witnessed it, never being in need of Holy Unction myself.
Confirmations and Annointing - Again, I suspect so, but I've never seen a Confirmation. Oil is used at Baptism.
[ 02. August 2009, 14:34: Message edited by: Patrick the less saintly ]
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I reckon that we aren't that high church CofE, but ... we score 12 to 14/15 of Leo's list. Some of them are close, and if we had the manpower we'd probably qualify. Confession is the one we really don't advertise, anywhere.
- Daily mass - not quite, but next week there'll 4 communion services (which is usual) and a 5th in one of the team churches (so 5/7). Three midweek communion services is the normal pattern with additional services for feasts - next week it's for the Transfiguration on 6 August;
- Sung Eucharist every Sunday - used to be, now only have 3 out of 4. We do have Choral Evensong the Sunday we don't have Sung Eucharist.
- Confessions - not advertised, anywhere;
- reservation - yes, and sanctuary light
- incense - for selected services - Easter, Christmas, Epiphany, Patronal, Christ the King, etc.
- full vestments - chasubles are worn, with frontals in seasonal colours for all Eucharistic services, including midweek said communion services
- full Holy Week ceremonies - depends what you mean - there was a communion service every day, the full Triduum series, Maundy Thursday stripping of the altar, vigil at the altar of repose, compline, Good Friday last hour service, Easter Vigil on the Saturday evening, Dawn Service and Easter Day service.
- statues - no-ish
- icons - several
- votive lights - votive stand
- 6 candles on or around the altar yes, behind with the altar cross - two on the altar
- emphasis more on the sacrament than the sermon - yep - midweek communion services and 8am do not always have a sermon
- holy oils for baptisms - yes
- oils for confirmations - yes
- oils for anointing the sick - yes
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
What exactly in an Anglican context does the phrase 'full holy Week ceremonies or services ' mean ?
Does it mean 'services every day of Holy Week' ?
Does it mean ' all services of Holy Week as contained in the Book of Common Prayer ?
Does it mean ' all services as in pre Vat 2 roman Missal' ?
Does it mean ' all services as in present Roman Missal' ?
Or does it mean non of these ?
Palm Sunday: Blessing of palms and procession TO church from somewhere else (without any retched donkeys! We are doing liturgy, not drama.), Passion Gospel sung or read dramatically.
Maundy Thursday: Foot washing, procession of the blessed sacrament to the altar of repose and watch until midnight
Good Friday: Ministry of the word, longer-than-usual intercessions, veneration of the cross either corporately or, better, individual kissing, general communion from the sacrament reserved yesterday
Easter Eve or very early Easter Sunday: blessing of the new fire, lighting and procession of the paschal candle, vigil readings, blessing of the font, renewal of baptismal vows and sprinkling, first mass of Easter.
And, because catholics like fun, I might add, plenty of gin or champagne later on.
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
Even MotR Anglicans keep Palm Sunday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, the Easter Vigil and Easter Morning. It's Tenebrae that really sorts the sheep from the goats, or the Catholics from the rest.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Why?
My Presbyterian lot will quite happily have a tenebrae (been to them), they won't have a lot of what you cited above (e.g. Easter vigil*, blessing of Palms) especially not veneration of the Cross.
Jengie
*Easter Sunday communion in the round at the sociable time of 11:00 a.m. is something else completely.
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
I suspect that I Presby. tenebrae is not like an Anglo-Catholic tenebrae.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
I suspect that I Presby. tenebrae is not like an Anglo-Catholic tenebrae.
Almost certainly not, but it would I suppose have the same purpose. It is an intriguing thought - iIs anyone able to describe such a ceremony, please?
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