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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Comparison with the 2004 election is informative. (Source: Wiki article.)
Popular Vote: Bush 62,040,610(50.7%) Kerry 59,028,444 (48.3%)
Electoral College: Bush 286 Kerry 251
(2004 depended in the end on Ohio, which was a closish call, not made until the day after.)
2012 as it stands (Source: BBC News)
Popular Vote: Obama 62,088,847 (50.6%) Romney 58,783,137 (47.9%)
Electoral College: Obama 332 Romney 206
It does seem clear that the EC system is, currently, giving the Democratic candidate a significant advantage. Obama did marginally better than Bush on the popular vote. His very comfortable EC win looks also to have been based on good Democratic voting support (probably helped by good organisation) in the battleground states.
So far as "popular vote mandate" is concerned Obama (2012) has a somewhat better claim than Bush (2004). Obama won comfortably in the end, however you look at it.
So far as mandate questions are concerned, the composition of the House of Representatives following the 2012 elections raises much bigger questions this time than the result of the Presidential election.
But from this side of the pond, it looks as though democracy in the US would benefit from reform (or replacement) of both the EC and the House of Representatives' Districts.
[ 12. November 2012, 07:48: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Think I'll start a new thread, given this one is closing shortly.
So done. Please take any further discussion on that issue to the new thread.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ 12. November 2012, 08:44: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
I dread having the last post on a thread I started but will risk it to say, again, I wish Obama and his family the best (which of course includes being surrounded by more than sycophants ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
And thanks to all!
Plus: 141% IS impressive. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
With two post-election threads already, and scope for many a more, I think we'll close this at midnight tonight GMT. (The St Lucie County story - and any other political matters Floridian - might become a third thread if anyone has the energy or interest.)
Time to say goodbye. And if you get the last goodbye in, moron, you can have the last word. Other Shipmates. Please PM me if you have sufficient interest in the smoldering flax for it not to be quenched.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ 12. November 2012, 16:31: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
As we wind down, it is interesting to look at the results of the various polls to see how well they forecast the result in the last few weeks.
According to Nate Silver, out of 23 polling organizations that released 5 or more polls of likely voters in the last 3 weeks of the campaign, only 4 showed a bias in favor of the Democrats, with half of those less than half a point. Meanwhile, 14 of the polls showed a Republican bias of over half a point. So it isn't surprising that the end result came as a surprise to those who weren't paying attention.
The polling firms with the most consistent Republican bias were:
Rasumssen 3.7 points
American Research Group 4.5 points
Gallup 7.2 points
There are a number of causes for the differences. Telephone polls that did not call mobile phones significantly under-reported the expected turnout from young and minority voters among the 1/3 of Americans who only have a mobile phone, compared to older voters who also have a wired phone. (There are laws against automated calling of mobile phones in many states.) Internet polls tended to do reasonably well at reaching a broad demographic, although ones that rely on voluntary participation have to monitor the response.
Many polling firms have a "likely voter demographic" model that they use to select a "representative" sample of the population, and apparently some of these are no longer accurate, especially with regards to young and minority voters.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
This article ponders the fact that Asian-Americans voted for Obama at a higher rate than in 2008 and now at an even higher rate than Latinos. Once again they are the "invisible minority:" this voting trend has gone largely unnoticed by pundits. It is also rather ironic because they have done so well economically, work predominantly in the private sector, own many businesses, and many of them or their parents have had painful brushes with Communism. One would assume that these characteristics would make them natural Republicans.
The only explanation the author finds is that Asian young people are highly educated and often work in high-tech industries in the brainiest communities of the country, e.g. Silicon Valley or the North Carolina "research triangle." Hence they have no interest in Republican negativism about immigrants and gays. (A follower of Richard Florida would be reminded of his three T's: Talent, Technology, and Tolerance; how creative people are found where all three are fostered; and how Republican policies since 9/11 have compromised them almost to a point that jeopardizes national security long-term).
Asians, of course, are a diverse group. The author notes that Korean-Americans do tend to vote Republican, but didn't speculate as to why. Comments from readers noted that he neglected to consider religion in his analysis. A political party comprising people who treat non-Christians as traitors is not going to appeal to a minority comprising non-Christians. Of Asian-Americans, Koreans are the most likely to be Christians.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well, OK! The Asian Community dimension and the three Ts justify leaving the thread open a little longer. Interesting points, Alogon. Good timing, too.
Sword of Damocles sheathed for a little.
B62 Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
...The only explanation the author finds is that Asian young people are highly educated and often work in high-tech industries in the brainiest communities of the country, e.g. Silicon Valley or the North Carolina "research triangle." Hence they have no interest in Republican negativism about immigrants and gays...
That certainly is my experience working in a high-tech industry with a large percentage of Asians (often here on H-1 visas, so not eligible to vote). But what I remember from the election-night discussions of the vote in North Carolina was that the "research triangle" there was more Republican than the state as a whole.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
The only explanation the author finds is that Asian young people are highly educated and often work in high-tech industries in the brainiest communities of the country, e.g. Silicon Valley or the North Carolina "research triangle." Hence they have no interest in Republican negativism about immigrants and gays.
David Brooks has discussed the Chinese and Indian communities' rejection of Republican candidates, and suggests that the real basis -- beyond the fascist tendencies of red-neck Republicans scaring the bejesus out of them -- is that these groups are culturally much more attuned to collective concerns. The bedrock of Republican fantasies is that whatever they got they got by themselves alone and to Hell with the rest of the country. Absolutely no civilized person could sign onto that nonsense.
Brooks suggests that the way forward for Republicans is to concentrate on ways that the government can offer help to people wanting to move up the social ladder. Of course, that would make them Democrats by today's jack-booted Republican standards. My fantasy is that Republican stupidity has reached the tipping point, where these foul troglodytes will finally cease to be a significant part of our political landscape. But, as HL Mencken noted, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
--Tom Clune
[ 13. November 2012, 13:23: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
But what I remember from the election-night discussions of the vote in North Carolina was that the "research triangle" there was more Republican than the state as a whole.
That would surprise the heck out of me, considering that the Triangle area contains my hometown of Chapel Hill (aka a mess of godless commie freaks, according to the rest of the state).
The I-40 corridor of North Carolina has been getting steadily more liberal over the past twenty years, not necessarily because the natives have changed their opinions but because there has been a huge influx of Yankees and other furriners. If you had told me 15 years ago that North Carolina would go for Obama in 2008, I would have laughed at you. We were still electing Jesse Helms by huge margins until he retired in 2002.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
From a kind of mirror image situation in the UK (what happened to "Old Labour").
If a political party becomes dominated by its ideologists, its desire to remain "true to its ideals" will take a long time to get modified, despite the evidence that it is precisely its current ideology which makes it unelectable.
There is a kind of tragedy in it. The party activist, the loyalists, are very often idealists; profoundly committed to the party for precisely that reason. And of course you cannot expect folks to ditch their ideals purely for the sake of electability.
So the party goes through phases or seeking both to "purify" its ideals (which can even lead to them becoming more extreme) and also looks for means of "getting our message across more clearly and convincingly".
It takes a while for the penny to drop that the problem is the ideology itself. An issue discussed in part in this thread.
Then folks divide. The purist say, in effect, "even if the result is unelectability, we won't sell out". The pragmatists say "let's get in first. That may mean "spinning" the message". The realists say "Maybe there really is something wrong with both our values and the way we express them? There's work to be done both on philosophy and policy. Maybe the world has changed? Maybe we need to revisit these things we cherish so much?"
The GOP is in for a period of soul-searching. It needs more than just another "Game Change".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
But what I remember from the election-night discussions of the vote in North Carolina was that the "research triangle" there was more Republican than the state as a whole.
That would surprise the heck out of me, considering that the Triangle area contains my hometown of Chapel Hill (aka a mess of godless commie freaks, according to the rest of the state).
If only there were some kind of world-wide information network that could answer this question!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
It also depends on your definition of the Research Triangle.
The three core counties with the bulk of the population went heavily Democratic, as did several other counties that could be possibly included. Other such counties did not.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The election, although over, is still throwing up new things to talk about (pun intended).
The Republican "blame anything but our choice of candidate" reaction to the election has vacillating between disgusting, humorous, and frightening. The latter are comments on blogs/news articles implying potential misdeeds. E.g. "Well the ballot didn't work...", ellipsis in the original, harkening back to somebody's quip (Bachmann?) about using the bullet if the ballot didn't work.
Lots of people on the right seem to think the election was "stolen" -- by voter fraud or vote-counting fraud, or whatever. Which is a grand case of projection since all the fraud discovered over the course of the last year has been perpetrated by Republicans.
The denial is thicker than flies on shit. I'm not sure Karl Rove believes Romney lost even now.
The hyperconservatives who think Romney lost because he wasn't conservative enough also seem to have their heads in the clouds. Hwut?
Oh well. Some estimates say by 2024 Texas will be a swing state. Not many years after that it will be solid blue. If the GOP doesn't find some way of appealing to people outside their angry old white guy demographic, they're toast.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Paul Ryan blames the loss on the high turnout of "urban" voters. Presumably the same people who listen to "urban" radio stations. Wonder what they look like?
In another article, he was quoted as denying that they lost on the issues... it's just that "urban" thing, I guess.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Lots of people on the right seem to think the election was "stolen" -- by voter fraud or vote-counting fraud, or whatever. Which is a grand case of projection since all the fraud discovered over the course of the last year has been perpetrated by Republicans.
People were voting while fraudulently claiming to be white males. In fact, some of them were so brazen about it they didn't even bother to claim to be white males and voted anyway.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
E.g. "Well the ballot didn't work...", ellipsis in the original, harkening back to somebody's quip (Bachmann?) about using the bullet if the ballot didn't work.
I'm boggling slightly here. Not at the sentiment but that Bachmann would be riffing off one of Malcolm X's most famous speeches.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Maybe it wasn't Bachmann. I do know she made some quip about "second amendment solutions" to problems not amenable to the ballot. Which is in the same ballpark.
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Paul Ryan blames the loss on the high turnout of "urban" voters. Presumably the same people who listen to "urban" radio stations. Wonder what they look like?
In another article, he was quoted as denying that they lost on the issues... it's just that "urban" thing, I guess.
Because urban voters don't vote based on issues. (Who owns those urban radio stations? Rupert "more conservative than thou" Murdoch, perhaps?)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Alogon wrote:
quote:
Asians, of course, are a diverse group. The author notes that Korean-Americans do tend to vote Republican, but didn't speculate as to why. Comments from readers noted that he neglected to consider religion in his analysis. A political party comprising people who treat non-Christians as traitors is not going to appeal to a minority comprising non-Christians. Of Asian-Americans, Koreans are the most likely to be Christians.
Interestingly, though, in Korea itself, the most conservative regions are the Gyeongsang provinces in the southeast, which have also been the most historically Buddhist.
This led to a bit of tension a while back, when Lee Myung Bak, a devout protestant from North Gyeongsang, became president under the conservative party banner, but then began to alienate Buddhists with a series of symbolic gestures and (minor and never realized) policy proposals that seemed to denigrate Buddhism. As of 2011, the two sides appear to have reached a degree of reconciliation.
Whether all this would mimic itself among the diaspora, I don't know. I do know that, in left-leaning South Jeolla, where I live, there was widespread dislike of Bush, regardless of religious affiliation, and equally widespread enthusiasm for Obama before and after the '08 election(Obamamania seems to have cooled the last few years, but there's nowhere near the resentment that was felt toward Bush).
[ 14. November 2012, 14:31: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Hm. It looks like Romney acutally lost ground among Mormons, compared to 2004. (No figures for 2008)
Not that huge a shift, until you consider which religious group we're talking about, ie. generally conservative, and the same faith as Romney's. Two factors which should have combined to at least keep the GOP treading water in the demographic.
I'd speculate that Romney's rep(in some circles) as a New England liberal might have hurt him, but then, Obama improved the Democratic tally among Mormons by the same number of percentage points that Romeny lost.
[ 14. November 2012, 15:36: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'd speculate that Romney's rep(in some circles) as a New England liberal might have hurt him, but then, Obama improved the Democratic tally among Mormons by the same number of percentage points that Romeny lost.
But since this is based on exit polls that doesn't necessarily mean that the same guys were switching sides. It could simply mean that the Romney-voting-mormons were disillusioned and stayed home, but the Obama-voting-mormons came out in force.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Some estimates say by 2024 Texas will be a swing state. Not many years after that it will be solid blue.
Might even be quicker than that - if we assume that Spanish-speaking Texans overwhelmingly vote Democrat.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'd speculate that Romney's rep(in some circles) as a New England liberal might have hurt him, but then, Obama improved the Democratic tally among Mormons by the same number of percentage points that Romeny lost.
But since this is based on exit polls that doesn't necessarily mean that the same guys were switching sides. It could simply mean that the Romney-voting-mormons were disillusioned and stayed home, but the Obama-voting-mormons came out in force.
That's true.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe it wasn't Bachmann. I do know she made some quip about "second amendment solutions" to problems not amenable to the ballot. Which is in the same ballpark.
It was Sharron Angle, who ran against Harry Reid for Senate in 2010.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe it wasn't Bachmann. I do know she made some quip about "second amendment solutions" to problems not amenable to the ballot. Which is in the same ballpark.
It was Sharron Angle, who ran against Harry Reid for Senate in 2010.
Thanks!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Some estimates say by 2024 Texas will be a swing state. Not many years after that it will be solid blue.
Might even be quicker than that - if we assume that Spanish-speaking Texans overwhelmingly vote Democrat.
I wouldn't count on that happening. Spanish-speaking Texans liked George W. Bush okay in 2000, before 9/11 made him derail his plans for immigration reform. The Republican party will have a much harder time recovering in California, where Latinos still haven't forgiven them for the racism of the Proposition 187 campaign in 1994, than in holding onto Texas, where they've historically been more sensible.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
When people start talking about Hispanic/Latinos voting Republican I wonder what they think the Republicans offer to people of color in the US? No one really buys that they are the party of 'values' or 'family' which is supposedly why Hispanic/Latinos will be drawn to them. They cut education funding, push for English only laws, want to build electrified fences to fry women and children, allow openly racist and jingoistic constituents to spread hate and lies, support laws that discriminate against citizens who have been here since before Guadalupe Hidlago and are so ignorant that they can't be arsed to tell a Puerto Rican from a Coloradan cause they speak Spanish (which they call a gutter langauge). Yes, Texas will go blue, like Colorado, California and Nevada and Florida. Arizona will too in a generation. Hispanic/Latinos aren"t just a mindless mass of people to be traded by the parties, increasingly, Hispanic/Latinos are flexing political muscles and our numbers mean we will demand a share of leadership and will create a place in the party on our own terms.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The Republican party will have a much harder time recovering in California, where Latinos still haven't forgiven them for the racism of the Proposition 187 campaign in 1994, than in holding onto Texas, where they've historically been more sensible.
Perhaps you haven't met Rick Perry.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
Rick Perry stood up for the Texas version of the DREAM act and has been quoted as saying, "To punish these young Texans for their parents’ actions is not what America has always been about". Can't disagree with that.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Rick Perry stood up for the Texas version of the DREAM act and has been quoted as saying, "To punish these young Texans for their parents’ actions is not what America has always been about". Can't disagree with that.
To quote blogger Brad DeLong, President Obama has "pursued Ronald Reagan's (second term) foreign policy, George H.W. Bush's spending policy, Bill Clinton's tax policy, Rick Perry's immigration policy, the Squam Lake Group's financial regulatory policy, John McCain's climate-change policy, George W. Bush's countercyclical fiscal policy, Richard Nixon's environmental policy, and Mitt Romney's health-care policy", which is clearly proof that this is the most radical and uncompromising administration in American history.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Rick Perry stood up for the Texas version of the DREAM act and has been quoted as saying, "To punish these young Texans for their parents’ actions is not what America has always been about". Can't disagree with that.
To quote blogger Brad DeLong, President Obama has "pursued Ronald Reagan's (second term) foreign policy, George H.W. Bush's spending policy, Bill Clinton's tax policy, Rick Perry's immigration policy, the Squam Lake Group's financial regulatory policy, John McCain's climate-change policy, George W. Bush's countercyclical fiscal policy, Richard Nixon's environmental policy, and Mitt Romney's health-care policy", which is clearly proof that this is the most radical and uncompromising administration in American history.
Yes, but he's his own man on the issue of gay marriage. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
Apparently Romney is now "explaining" to his donors that Obama won the election by giving financial gifts to minorities and using those "gifts" to turn out the vote. Jindal realizes which way the wind is blowing as well as telling the truth in rejecting this blame tactic by Romney: Jindal blasts Romney claim
Which side of the GOP will win the battle for the party?
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I read Brad DeLong's blog and Niteowl's post just after posting in another thread the following observation.
"The duty of an opposition is to oppose, but not to be stupid about it".
Implacable, polarising, opposition is particularly stupid given the demographics of the support for Obama. It really is stubbornly stupid not to see that. It seems likely to insure that the support for Democrats amongst the current young will continue as they get older. And it will further strengthen the sense of alienation ethnic minorities feel about the GOP.
The seven last words of any organisation are "we've never done it this way before". That's always a danger for any organisation whose conservative instincts are operating against its long term prospects.
It really ought to be soul-searching time for the GOP, not the old instinctive "business as usual".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl:
Apparently Romney is now "explaining" to his donors that Obama won the election by giving financial gifts to minorities and using those "gifts" to turn out the vote. Jindal realizes which way the wind is blowing as well as telling the truth in rejecting this blame tactic by Romney: Jindal blasts Romney claim
Which side of the GOP will win the battle for the party?
So lemme see if I have this straight:
Romney-the-billionaire is claiming Obama bought the presidency?
Forgive me, but that's *cough* rich. I'm happier than ever this guy is nowhere near any red phones. He's delusional.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It just seems weird to complain that your opponent had policies which appealed to people. How the hell else are you supposed to campaign for office? By offering philosophical arguments as to the meaning of life, or the likelihood of aliens landing?
Sour grapes, I suppose. They did it better than us, bastards, cos we're the rich ones, who dole out 'gifts'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It just seems weird to complain that your opponent had policies which appealed to people.
Indeed. The idea that people were "bought off" with health care reform is particularly special.
I suppose one could frame any form of government action that involves spending taxes as "buying off" the plebs. A really honest campaign would eschew such populist tactics and promise to do nothing for anyone.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
the president courted voters by offering policies - some of them this election year - that appealed to key constituencies.
So Romney wasn't trying to do this ? If so, I think I spot the flaw in his election campaign.
quote:
You can imagine for somebody making $25,000 or $30,000 or $35,000 a year, being told you're now going to get free health care, particularly if you don't have it, getting free health care worth, what, $10,000 per family, in perpetuity, I mean, this is huge
Or maybe it the access to secure healthcare in perpetuity - rather than just if you don't piss off your boss and get fired - that is 'huge'.
Plus had he not noticed that just over a third of US households - never mind individual earners - earn less than that.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
You guys are willfully obtuse. When you throw money at the Makers, you are being a real American. When you offer a leg up to the Help, you are undermining the American way of life by pandering. It ain't that complicated...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
But.. but... but...
Yes, sir, sorry sir.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
You guys are willfully obtuse. When you throw money at the Makers, you are being a real American. When you offer a leg up to the Help, you are undermining the American way of life by pandering. It ain't that complicated...
--Tom Clune
As we say in the UK - tax the poor, to help the rich. It's natural law, ain't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
You guys are willfully obtuse. When you throw money at the Makers, you are being a real American. When you offer a leg up to the Help, you are undermining the American way of life by pandering. It ain't that complicated...
--Tom Clune
As we say in the UK - tax the poor, to help the rich. It's natural law, ain't it?
Of course, the real problem with helping the Help is that they are grateful. The rich expect to be pandered to, and are thus unaffected politically by such largesse. But the great unwashed are easily manipulated by shiny objects, which clearly only serves to undermine the purity of the electoral process.
Rich people understand that it is the politicians who should be bought -- a basic point of politics that the hoi polloi are simply unable to grasp. It's shameful that such low-lifes were ever given the vote, a mistake that Republicans have worked tirelessly to undermine through such things as voter suppression and ID laws -- not that they get any credit for these displays of civic-mindedness.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I sometimes read some of the right-wing Catholic blogs, partly just to spite myself I suppose, and I think they find democracy a bit smelly really, and not really in conformity with natural law.
Natural law has led inexorably and logically to capitalism, which is not a way of getting effing rich, and ripping people off, but an efficient way of harnessing nature's riches. So there you have it. It's a towering edifice of logic and rationality and unconscious greed.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Florida's Governor Rick "any resemblance to Superman villian Lex Luthor is purely coincidental" Scott has ordered a review of Florida's voting procedures in response to the long wait times at polling places on election day. Given that Florida's executive branch (of which Governor Scott is the head) cut early voting days nearly in half and reduced the number of hours during which early voting could happen, I'm guessing this search for the cause of voting delays is necessary only because either there are no mirrors in the Florida governor's mansion or Governor Scott casts no reflection.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Florida's Governor Rick "any resemblance to Superman villian Lex Luthor is purely coincidental" Scott has ordered a review of Florida's voting procedures in response to the long wait times at polling places on election day. Given that Florida's executive branch (of which Governor Scott is the head) cut early voting days nearly in half and reduced the number of hours during which early voting could happen, I'm guessing this search for the cause of voting delays is necessary only because either there are no mirrors in the Florida governor's mansion or Governor Scott casts no reflection.
And my guess is that they'll discover that the reason for the long lines was all the voter fraud in "urban areas..." ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
No, no. It's because all those urban citizens wanted to vote! Shame on them.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Gov Scott (who, incidentally looks a lot like the CEO in Dilbert) seems to be reading the writing on the wall--he's still deeply unpopular, saw his state go to Obama, retain Nelson as senator, saw the FL House delegation add Dems rather than Republicans and had the FL House speaker-in-waiting get defeated--and is rethinking things.
In addition to the voting review, he's also now changing his tune about refusing any participation by the state in ACA.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
No, no. It's because all those urban citizens wanted to vote! Shame on them.
There was a US sit-com in the...90s(?) called "Grace Under Fire". In one ep, Grace is having to deal with a sexist boss, and has to cave in on something. Then she says, "but we're never, EVER, giving back the vote!"
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I hear Fox News have predicted a landslide win for Mitt Romney in the Corby By-Election.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
And balaam's post is a conclusive sign that this thread should now, finally, be closed! Please feel free to start up other threads on related, post election subjects.
"And as the sun sets on the American way of life (WASP version anyway), as the Obama percentage lead creeps up towards 3% as the count approaches its end, as three-quarters of a million Americans express the wish to secede from the Union, as various GOP supporters and loyalists give signs that they still don't know their asses from their elbows ...(bias is normal, remember)"
So we say farewell until the next time.
Thanks to all for the collective ride.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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