|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Whats wrong with porn?
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
if anything. And to clarify a few points first, this excludes child porn or any other illegal material, becasue that is a different issue. I also don't deny that for some people porn is a problem, an addiction, but then so is alcohol, and we drink that in churches.
[ 06. April 2006, 09:12: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
|
Posted
Objectification.
--------------------
[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
My problem with photographic or videographic pornography is simply that someone has had to pose for those pictures. I feel that it is a dmaging process for them, and that many of them will have got into the industry as a result of having being damaged in various ways. (Lola Ferrari is an extreme example of the process.)
I also agree that objectification is a problem - and the attitudes that can be inculcated by exposure to some material. However, if people want to read erotica I don't really have a problem with that.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
wanderingstar
Shipmate
# 10444
|
Posted
It still depends on your choice of porn.
You may feel that it's a valid career choice for a liberated noughties woman (or man).
You may feel it's economic and/or moral exploitation of Eastern European (or equivalent) folks. For everyone who "makes it" there will be many left feeling/being used, broken, less than whole.
Thirdly, hard-ons make tbj weep buckets.
Now, how about what's right with porn?
--------------------
You know what you shouldn't have done? You should never have let me press all those buttons...
Posts: 273 | From: Hollow lands and hilly lands | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
If I thought all the people in porno movies were really making a free choice and weren't being exploited, I'd have absolutely no problem with it. Everything I've read, plus conversations with the one person I've ever met who posed for porno mags, tells me that the vast majority of women who get into porn, like the vast majority of women who get into prostitution, do it because they don't feel like they have other good economic options. They may put a bright smile on and say it's all okay, but the real story is usually rather ugly. (Why men get into porn I don't know -- never run across anything on the subject, but have wondered for a long time if the movie "Boogie Nights" is at all exemplary.)
If you go to Asia Carrera's website, you'll find a lot of fun, happy stuff, and the biography available from the main page puts her career in a very positive light, but if you look hard enough, you can find a second biography (this page has no pictures so is safe -- rummage around the rest of the site at your own risk). The woman I know who did porno was, like Asia Carrera, a runaway, and she did porn starting when she was 16 because it was a step up from selling herself on the street.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Clarification:
1) By read, I mean by written material rather photos.
2) Problem with photo pornography is that you have know way of knowing if the person photographed is one of the notional happy sex-workers rather than one of the exploited ones.
3) What's right with porn? In theory, it's just another sex toy and can be value neutral - but of course nothing involving people
is value neutral.
[Eta: crosspost]
[ 18. February 2006, 21:35: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ananke
Shipmate
# 10059
|
Posted
I personally have issues with pornography as, like all media, changes the way we think. Given the highly effective 'reward' systems in pornography (do nothing = sexual release) it is even more insidious than most media.
It makes sex a thing to be observed rather than engaged in. I once had a 'relationship' with a porn addict. Every act was straight out of porn, not as in acting the stuff out but the way it is engaged in. Positions used for maximum visual effect rather than actual pleasure. The same thing happens with literary porn - it just happens more in one's head.
I think there is a line between erotica and porn - erotica recreates the feeling and the emotion of the act where porn describes it. Engaging in either creates a void where sexual expression becomes an object rather than internally motivated.
--------------------
...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.
A Perfect Circle - Magdalena
Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Once you're talking about written erotica vs written pornography it becomes very difficult to draw that distinction. I feel that written material has the benefit of at least not exploiting anyone else.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr Alex
Shipmate
# 10304
|
Posted
Erotica (words,) rather than porn pics, is very subjective. I remember at college a very evo student wanting me to sign a petition banning all porn, so I read to him (slightly suggestively) parts of the Songs of Song, which he found pornographic. One mans porn, is another mans scripture?
Fr Alex
--------------------
If this sig appears below a post about a Dead Horse or about how mean the hosts and admins are, you may be looking at my final post.
Posts: 495 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
In so far as the use of erotica is an extension of sexual fantasy I don't think it is a moral problem per se. The Song of Solomon is a good example of that.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
|
Posted
Its a huge overgeneralisation I know - but wheras (a lot of?) men are stimulated mainly visually - ie can get a hard on over some porn and reach that blissful moment - a lot of women (myself included) are more likely to have "lust-issues" or whatever, when caught up in an erotic piece of literature... The ideas the imagination etc. So much (for me at least... ) is to do with imagining the emotion, the feelings, teh touch, sensations, and hardly anything to do with the image of the person..
This can lead to a distinction of "womans porn" being ok, and "mans porn" not being. I think it boils down to... is the problem with porn mags the "exploitatoin of women" in which case written porn is fine, or is there something deeper about encouraging lust and desires/ encouraging objectification in real life relationships/ increasing sexual desire in anhealthy way?
Im not sure I know the answer. If I was an incredibly stunning woman though, and was offereed a small fortune to have my picture taken, Id like to think id say no (and why do i even say that? why do we assume its "right" to say no?!?!?) yet on the other hand - hardly any effort and a large income...?!
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
From the perspective of advancing age, it all seems comically mechanical. Somewhat analogous to observing one of those battery-operated clear plastic models of a gasoline engine with moving parts. See the oil pump circulate fluids to the cam shaft while the push rods actuate valve lifters. The pistons rise, compressing explosive gases to be fired electrically with a properly timed ignition system. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Interesting, but no longer stimulating.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I guess part of the worry, is adolescents growing up thinkging that sexual relationships should look like what they see in porn mags, and so should their and their partner's bodies.
One assumes older audiences maybe wiser - or past saving.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Why men get into porn I don't know -- never run across anything on the subject
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, and not for people who get paid for it, but it might be an exhibitionistic streak, or finding it rather nice to have people find one attractive, or for that matter finding it a nice way to meet other like-minded guys with the same interests. It's really rather cool to meet someone who turns out to recognize me, and the other guys I have met in the same sort of context have generally been quite nice, with mundane jobs that pay their bills, who are into it because it's fun. The site I have been featured on is a pay site, but gives free memberships to the guys whose photos are used (i.e., if they use your pictures, then you get to see all the other photos; no idea what they pay for videos), so it's more of a collaboration among equals who are all into the same sort of thing than guys feeling forced or pressured into anything.
I am told that the Bel Ami studios in Europe (who have guys on the other end of the spectrum than my "type," and basically make movies for money) have none of the abuse-related issues, but are run by a former theater and film director and approach things in a very above-board way -- none of the actors are allowed to be on drugs and so on. When they "retire" from on-camera roles, some of the guys go on to other jobs for the company, but others go on to things like architecture school, so apart from any moral issues about sex per se, the concerns about people being pressured, trapped and such (which are indeed very real dangers) don't seem to be the case for at least some of the erotic film folks out there.
I obviously can't post appropriate links here to any sites connected to this here, nor to the site for the lesbian erotica publishers of On Our Backs, but the magazine was created by lesbians for lesbians, "as a response (in part) to the anti-pornography platform of most lesbian and feminist organizations and media at the time," and is still committed "to lesbian sexual diversity and empowerment."
David
--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Well that kind of undermines a lot of my argument - but I still say that most consumers are not going to be in a position to judge the amount of exploitation / or lack of involved.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
|
Posted
I have to say, I haven't seen much porn -- "real" porn, I mean, porn meant to be porn.
(Lots of ads and movie scenes over the years have crossed a line in my mind and are pornographic as far as I'm concerned --)
But, re: porn made and meant to be porn, what little I've seen has been bad. Stupid in the extreme. Tacky (and when I, the Queen of Tackiness, call something "tacky", child, it is tacky).
And the little bit of written porn I've read has been about 50/50 bad.
I'm not counting stuff that was written especially for me -- heh -- I mean supposedly professional stuff.
So it's real easy for me to stop short of digging into the spiritual/Christian/Scriptural reasons that matter to me, and make do with the critical reasons. It's easy for me to just toss out an across-the-board condemnation. "It's trash. Waste of film. Burn it."
Somewhere out there may be high-quality well-choreographed well-written porn, created only by totally willing people who have never been taken advantage of in the process. I just ain't seen it yet.
--------------------
I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
|
Posted
First, I was refcently in Germany and was surprise at how an open minded society looks and acts. Advertisements for porn movies were on the front of the Blockbuster equivelant, and it had a HUGE porn section. Not a problem. The most conservative of Christians would blow up condoms for their kids to play with (think baloons) and when asked why, they said they would rather have their kids talk about sex with them than with someone else. It all looked and seemed REAL healthy. When sex (and porn) is not relegated to "Dirty" it won't be.
If I am not mistaken they do not have the same serious "Sex crime" issues America does, but I am willing to be corrected on that with data.
Second, porn (and prostitution) can be very helpful for those that are not sexually desirable to most others for various reasons (handicapped, weight, socially undesirable, whatever). It might also be an outlet for people that are trying to stay in a sexually bad relationship. It may be the only outlet they have. To make that "Bad" strikes me as mean.
Third, even if many porn stars are exploited, to remove that economic option from them would simply move it underground. To say, criminilize sex is only slightly dumber than criminilizing drugs. Which is to say really stupid. It won't stop the problem and it will cause innocent people to be thrown in jail.
--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
|
Posted
Am I the only one who mis-read the thread title as "What's wrong with pr0n?"
I thought not.
--------------------
I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
samara
Shipmate
# 9932
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If you go to Asia Carrera's website, you'll find a lot of fun, happy stuff, and the biography available from the main page puts her career in a very positive light, but if you look hard enough, you can find a second biography (this page has no pictures so is safe -- rummage around the rest of the site at your own risk). The woman I know who did porno was, like Asia Carrera, a runaway, and she did porn starting when she was 16 because it was a step up from selling herself on the street.
Could you expand on this? I didn't think the second bio exactly put the industry in a negative light. Her life, yes, and how she got into it. That stripping was hard to do, and that screwing people for money was negative. But it wasn't clear, really, whether the porn industry was negative for her.
A step up from selling herself on the street - well, it was a step up, right? I guess the question is how far a step up she thought it was, or how far a step up it really is.
--------------------
Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading).
Courtesy of Trouble in China
Posts: 439 | From: Canada | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
|
Posted
I'm with Gort on this one. I have a peculiar job that means I see filmed porn every single day, most of it designed for the straight male. It is probably the single most boring "art" form in existence these days. It is impoverished, mechanistic - stick pole A into slot B, make a few noises then, wizzbang money shot. If you're talking about more than one man with one woman (which you usually are in about 80% of porn scenes) then it starts looking like some sort of Heath Robinson machine.
It isn't educational, it isn't pretty and it has some really nasty attitudes to women. After a few tapes, you learn all the dialogue, all the moves and all the combinations. I hate to think that people have such a limited view of what is, after all, supposed to be a great pleasure.
Chast, you're talking about gay porn, whole different story. We don't mind gay porn at work because it has energy, and quite often, humour.
--------------------
Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
Thank you for all of your responses. There are a number of issues that prompted this, not least that my employer has done the web site for gay porn videos, which intrigues me, morally.
<devils advocate>
Objectification - yes I understand that. However is there not an argument that if the more lustful thoughts and ideas can be relieved with images/writing/videos then there is more chance of dealing with ones partner as a person, and not wanting to simply live out ones fantasies with them?
</devils advocate>
Addiction is bad. Expecting others to live up to your addictions is very bad. Rather like expecting others to be able to consume the same amount of alcohol as you. Sad, dangerous, wrong but an indication of an addiction problem, not necessarily with the object of the addiction.
Tackiness - yes no doubt ( not actually speaking from experience, you realise ). Porn as art would be a very short discussion.
I am interested in the distinctions being made by some between porn and erotica - would anyone like to expand on this. Maybe that is where the distinction shoudl lie - that erotica is acceptable, but porn is not for all of the reasons above.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
|
Posted
erotica = the bits we want to look at, and so classify as "not porn".
porn = those bits that dont work for us so we can look down on those that do like it...
A bit like the distinction(?) between porn mags and art??
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
|
Posted
erotica = the bits we want to look at, and so classify as "not porn".
porn = those bits that dont work for us so we can look down on those that do like it...
A bit like the distinction(?) between porn mags and art??
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
Just a thought: we should not judge something by its usefulness, but by its compatibility with the commandments of Christ.
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
|
Posted
andreas - you need to expand a bit further there, Christ didnt leave us with a textbook on relationships, or sex or global warming or the environment.... or all sorts of things. We need to come to a conclusion ourselves - hence the debate. I think perhaps as a christian and as an ethicist Id be wondering whether porn *does* conflict with "the commands of christ". Which ones were you thinking off?
For me personally - instinctively I react I dont like it (.,..and there fore must be wrong... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ), yet the odd erotic posed phot i see now and then i think - hey thats art...
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If I thought all the people in porno movies were really making a free choice and weren't being exploited, I'd have absolutely no problem with it. Everything I've read, plus conversations with the one person I've ever met who posed for porno mags, tells me that the vast majority of women who get into porn, like the vast majority of women who get into prostitution, do it because they don't feel like they have other good economic options.
I agree with Ruth on this point.
Though there are vast ranges in what might be considered pornography (I daresay there are those on this earth who would consider the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel to be immodest), I believe that sexually explicit material is morally neutral. The OP made a good point about how addiction and 'use' can be quite different. Individually, whether one uses sexually explicit material could have moral implications - for example, if it led to cutting oneself off from relationships, or to viewing others as objects existing only as virtual sex toys, inciting violence, whatever. There could be no one standard.
I'm sure I am not alone, among celibates, in that I need to be discriminating about reading sexually explicit material (by which I mean that which has much detail about sexual acts, not that which merely contains references to sexual relationships - the latter are not a problem at all.) My reason is simple - I do not think it is charitable to oneself to start what one cannot finish. Some people can become aroused very easily, and would need to accept this and judge one's use of such material accordingly. As I have grown older, much of my sex drive has declined, and it well could be that I would not need to avoid what could cause all sorts of discomfort for one half my age. Perhaps, were I married, I would find such material helpful to get me halfway there before beginning.
--------------------
Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
And then there are those who are single who do not not necessarily wish to be abstinent.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
I think it gradually desensitises us in ways we don't perceive.
A friend of mine did one year of his PhD research in India and said he felt overwhelmed and horny all the time on his return to the UK, even by 'soft' images used in advertising.
It also, possibly, makes 'normal' people feel inferior if they have not got big breasts, penis etc. Hence the huge rise in plastic surgery, 'boob jobs' etc.
[ 19. February 2006, 13:47: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
andreas - you need to expand a bit further there
Now, Emma, when I expand my thoughts further I get called to Hell ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Seriously now, I might get misunderstood if I say something, because people here think in different terms than I do; for example they might think "Andreas is saying that porn is sinful".
I was replying to those that said that porn can be useful in a practical way. I said that this should have nothing to do with Christian thinking.
Since you ask for guidelines, I will remind you that the crux of the gospel is expressed clearly by Christ. He said: "if anyone want to become my disciple, let them deny themselves, and take up their cross and follow me".
The question is who wants to deny himself / herself and follow Christ.
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
# 4347
|
Posted
Re: distinction between (visual) pornography and erotic art, I think it was Roger Scruton who said that the latter tends to draw the viewer's eye to the face of the subject rather than the genitals(though I think here he's concentrating on more classical/pre-modern nudes in art, not the 20th century grotesque/weird stuff that surfaces as 'modern art'). As a working definition, I like it because it helps distinguish between a mind/soul-and-body approach, and a reduction of the person to body parts, or an obsessive focus on body parts (which okay sometimes also functions symbolically, as in some of Rodin and Courbet's visual art).
Having said that, it is noticeable that art shops seem to increasingly stock images that are generally considered as pornograhpic as 'art', e.g. it's impossible to miss the 50th anniversary album of Playboy next to the Michaelangelos, etc. The 'problem' as far as I can see is that it involves photographs, which deceive the viewer more convincingly than drawings, paintings or sculptures regarding what 'perfect bodies' are like. I also failed to notice any use of e.g. philosophical or mythological symbolism in those photos that might render them 'artistic' in the way that a lot of historic art work involving nudes seems to do.
--------------------
If I had a coat, I would get it.
Posts: 1272 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
Andreas, I agree with you that just because something could be described as useful doesn't make it an appropriate option for Christians always.
But are you going to give your opinion on the subject actually being discussed? Otherwise reading your comment feels a little "hit and run", if you understand me.
I don't know what I think about this. I know all sorts of situations where I would say porn was bad. Those would include where people had been focred into it, whatever that means, where people were using it to feed an obsession or addiction or using it as an excuse to objectify or treat their sexual partners badly in some other way.
I also find written erotica a "better" solution because it's fiction with no real people involved I guess - and partly because as Emma says, women often find written things more stimulating than men in that regard. Perhaps that's just because it would be my preference.
But for example, if I were in a committed relationship, marriage say, with a man who naturally had a much higher sex drive than me. Say that he felt bad for always being in the mood when I wasn't, and I felt bad for not ever initiating things. If I were to read some erotica while he was on his way home, got myself in the mood and thereby led to me initiating sex for once... I don't think that would be a bad thing. I think it would probably be a good thing for my hypothetical marriage.
But this isn't me, you understand. No siree. I'm at it like a rabbit. 4 times a day, us. Minimum.
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
Caz..., I think that being a Christian does not have to do with doing the right thing, or not sinning.
I think that being a Christian has to do with learning how to die, how to die to oneself in order to live in Christ. I don't think that many people want to die...
You spoke of porn being "bad", or about "committed relationships", or "a bad thing" etc. I would not use such an approach to talk about the gospel of Christ.
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
But this thread is about what you think of porn!
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
Yes, and what I said was "look dude, I cannot judge what other people do, but for one who wants to deny oneself, porn is not helping him do this; in fact, porn helps one live, not die to oneself".
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
OK, thanks - that's clearer. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Wouldn't that make all (pleasurable) sexual activity unhelpful though?
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
No wonder ancient Christians esteemed virginity so much. It was unthinkable in their times what many of them did; that's why they were mocked by the non-Christians.
[ETA] It's not only virginity; it's about not having sex before marriage, abstinence from sex in marriage for periods of time, etc.
[ 19. February 2006, 16:19: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
|
Posted
I'm sorry Andreas, I don't follow (could be Sunday afternoon stupor)
So are you saying that all sexual activity outside of marriage including porn is etc is wrong for a Christian because it causes you to live rather than die to yourself, but within marriage it is sometimes okay, but that sometimes you should abstain for a while?
I'm just a bit confused on why it's okay to sometimes have pleasurable sex within marriage as surely you are still living and not dying to yourself at those times?
Or have I misunderstood you?
--------------------
"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
I'm not really an expert on sex, so I don't have a clue what I'm saying here.
I just pointed out the understanding the Church developed about sexuality, that sex has no place in a Christian's life before marriage, that married people are to fast abstaining from sex etc
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
The first time I became aware of porn was at primary school when a very sexually aware girl in my class started handing around photographs in the playground. It wasn't just the fact that it was naked bodies - I came from a family where my mother insisted on walking around naked to show it was nothing to be ashamed of (which actually embarrassed the heck out of me, but that's another story) so naked bodies were fairly natural. It was the fact that it was men and women and sticks together - at the age of 9 or 10 I couldn't quite understand what sticks had to do with it. Anyway, I remember at the time having a very strong, instinctive feeling that it was wrong - despite never having any teaching about such stuff (in those days it never occurred to teachers or parents to teach primary age children about such things). But I also knew instinctively that I should never tell my teacher about the photos.
Is it the images themselves, or the secrecy and furtiveness often surrounding them which is wrong? And if so, how is that changed in a society which is increasingly more upfront about their existence?
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
Pornography, much like any other method of stimulating the senses, is not a black and white issue. If a person finds that pornography inhibits their path (for whatever reason), then they should avoid it. I don't find it helpful applying other's interpretations of gospel to something so fundamentally personal as sexual stimulation. There are enough inhibitions surrounding the subject without adding religous fervor to the mix.
If someone wants to truly "deny themselves" for a spiritual goal then don't be half-hearted about it. Find a cave and become an ascetic.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
Gort, you are suggesting that the gospel is different from what I'm saying. I think that you are saying this for many reasons. It would make Christianity harsher than one might want it to be, it would mean that many Christians are not Christ's desciples, it would mean that our society is essentially anti-Christian and so on. But you have to do more than simply dismiss what I said. You have to explain why my understanding does not represent what the actual gospel is like.
Don't forget that when a man asked Christ what to do in order to be perfect, Christ replied that in order to become perfect one "has to sell all his possessions and follow Him". You seem to be thinking that Christ was speaking hyperboles. However, I don't think so. Neither did the first Christians, nor people like St. Anthony, who became an monk the moment he heard the aforementioned passage.
I think that what you said shows clearly what I have been saying in JimmyT's thread. You spoke of "ascesis". I said that the orthodox way of being a Christian is through an ascetic approach to life. I also said that the West, due to the changes the new populations brought in the fifth century, no longer approaches life in an ascetic way.
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
[...] You have to explain why my understanding does not represent what the actual gospel is like...
No, I don't. The subject of this thread is not about debating your understanding of gospel.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
|
Posted
If I were as objective as RuthW, I'd probably mirror her view exactly. However, I must confess that I'm a bit jaded about the whole idea of classifying pornography as being much different from anything else in human society.
To look at things from a perspective of exploitation, I'm not sure pornography really stands out. I mean, I took some dangerous, life-threatening jobs when I was desperate for money. And it's not like such combinations of dirty jobs with those desperate enough to do them is at all uncommon. Nor do I think it ever will be. I think about a career with one of the highest rates of drug abuse and required counselling - commercial fishing - and I feel numbed.
It seems to me that Mad Geo has hold of the issue in the most meaningful manner. You can point fickle fingers of circumstantial blame at the porn industry, but all that really separates it is that it's bluntly about sex. I suspect that the best way to minimize the harmful effects of the porn industry, because there will always be one, is to keep it under the protective wing of mainstream consciousness instead of shoving it into the dark corners of our denial.
To fully admit my bias, I've been known to use nude models for my drawings. As much as I hate and try to ignore the binary "pornography" response people have to some of my nudes, I really do find the naked human form beautiful - and an important facet of that is sexual. I feel strongly that, as long as nobody is treated in a criminal manner, people should be content to regulate their own participation in the material.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
|
Posted
andreas- it sounds like you are coming form a bit of a dualist (hmm is that the word i mean?) view where you see all bodily things as wrong, or at least denying them all as good.
Just following this though, does that mean that in your eyes the "ideal" or "aim" for A good christian would be to only ever eat bread and water, to never eat nice food, never buy nice clothes, live in a tent, never have sex....
I actually dont read the gospel that way. I do think at times yes "deny yourself" really does mean that, but i dont think it meant we should all be penniless/homeless etc.
Anyway - back to sex, why are you interpreting "deny yourself" in this area, maybe this wasnt an area to deny oneself - i for one hope that if I ever get married that my partner and I would both have a hugely exciting and fulfilled sex life. (in fact Paul tells couples to basically keep each other happy and *only* to stop from sex, *if* they really have to, in order to fast - hes not advocating it!!)
As for fear of a hell calling... do say what you think, but a simple guidline would be "i think the bible might be saying xyz" or "what about this bit here... does this mean" xyz"rather than andreas view of the gospel is The gospel and youll find entering into discussion a lot easier ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(im still curious btw as to your reasoning - dont not play because youre scared of a hell calling! Just play nicely )
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
... but all that really separates it is that it's bluntly about sex. I suspect that the best way to minimize the harmful effects of the porn industry, because there will always be one, is to keep it under the protective wing of mainstream consciousness instead of shoving it into the dark corners of our denial.
To fully admit my bias, I've been known to use nude models for my drawings. As much as I hate and try to ignore the binary "pornography" response people have to some of my nudes, I really do find the naked human form beautiful - and an important facet of that is sexual. I feel strongly that, as long as nobody is treated in a criminal manner, people should be content to regulate their own participation in the material.
Hey rook - great points!!
I too think that the naked human (particularly female ,even tho im mainly straight) body is beautiful. I think an imprtant part of our lives is our sexuality.
Sometimes it does feel like anything to do with sex has to be hushed up as if its easier to deny that part of ourselves.
Peter Varry (prolific ethics writer for students) has a book called "the question of sex" (i think) and I really do want to read that soon (after pay day amazon here i come!)
hmm school library perhaps...
About half way down this page are some quotes from his book and a "way forwards" if anyones interested.
peter vardy quotes
(there are a couple of thumnails of womens legs at the top amongst the philosophers but i think its works safe...!)
(on second thoughts, it has "Philosophy of love, sex, orgasm" in big letters you may not want on your screen in public!!)
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
|
Posted
I think that in Western culture orthodoxy comes accross as dualism, because the Western man has dropped the gospel many centuries ago. It's a bit ironic, when you think that orthodox people who did A LOT of ascesis were the ones that fought manichaistic opinions.
Dualism consisists in physical reality being bad, and spiritual reality being good. Orthodoxy (small o) consists in physical reality being united with spiritual reality and a fight inside the physical-spiritual man in order to become Spiritual (i.e. leb by the Holy Spirit instead of his own self).
So, I'm not being dialist because I see no fight between physical and spiritual things; I see a fight between the "old man" and the "new man".
You spoke about Paul. Paul is clear on sexuality; he prefers all people to be virgin. However, because of pastoral needs, he allows people to get married. That's a pretty different attitude from what we see today, don't you think?
Christ spoke of "death". He said that in order to live, one has to die first. This death, this beginning of a new life in the Holy Spirit, was practised by the ancient Christians. Nowdays it is almost entirely forgoten.
I think that the Church can accommodate for both, those that want to die and those that want to live. But I think that for the Church to be the Church of Christ, She needs not to mix the gospel with things that come from sources other than Christ; She has to be frank with Herself and others.
I also think that we should be frank with ourselves, understand that we are not "born again", and ask some serious questions about if we really want to let go of ourselves and follow Christ. It's not bad not to want to be Christ's disciple. Christ did not come to make all people Christians! But sincerity (that leads to humility) is important in my opinion.
--------------------
Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
Rook - excellent post. I think the points at the end about your models may be the eroticism/pornography distinction - in that for you they have an eroticism, which is the sexual aspect of the appreciation, but which other see as pornography.
And the reality is that workers in a whole lot of industries are exploited and demeaned. It's just a whole lot more obvious in pornographic images than in the clothes you are wearing. But people have ( probably ) been abused along the way to making those, but do it because they have no other choice.
If you stop buying, you simply mean that they lose out on a means of survival. Hmmm.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andreas1984:
[QB] the Western man has dropped the gospel many centuries ago.
Hmm...rather a sweeping statement, ISTM. Proof positive, please?
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
BassoProfundo
Shipmate
# 11008
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
I just pointed out the understanding the Church developed about sexuality, that sex has no place in a Christian's life before marriage....
You have to remember though, that Christ embraced Mary Magdelene.
[ 19. February 2006, 17:44: Message edited by: BassoProfundo ]
--------------------
"Music is enough for a lifetime; but a lifetime is never enough for music." - Rachmaninov
Posts: 133 | From: Hobart, Tasmania | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
