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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Street harassment of women
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
Over on the working mothers thread there's a discussion of street harassment which I've seen played out many times online before. Several women talk about frequent street harassment being an ever-present reality for women. Some men are sceptical or dismissive, while other men agree with the women. A couple of women then add that they personally do not experience it.
I'm one of the lucky ones who don't experience it. I find the discrepancy there interesting and puzzling: for many women, harassment is a major annoyance which they have to face every day; so much so, that some of them believe it's every woman's experience, that it's an unfortunately inescapable part of life as a woman. But for some women, it's just not an issue.
I'm interested, in an armchair-sociologist way, in what causes such a huge discrepancy.
- Different perceptions of what constitutes "harassment" or "frequent"? (I doubt it; people seem pretty good at objectively cataloguing their experiences.)
- Walking around in different neighbourhoods, at different times of the day? (But the harassed women on that thread insist they experience it in all sorts of neighbourhoods; and I've seen discussions on LiveJournal where people report it in my own neighbourhood.)
- Differences in our physical appearance? (Maybe. If so, what differences exactly?)
- Something else?
Obviously, harassment is the harasser's fault, not the victim's. But if there are factors that distinguish victims of it from non-victims, it would be interesting and potentially fruitful to discuss them, and I hope I can start such a discussion without inviting, or being perceived as, victim-blaming.
[ 02. April 2014, 19:22: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I’m not sure what you mean by harassment. Are you talking about the same level of harassment a woman walking alone without a man accompanying her can expect to receive in Saudi Arabia, or are you talking about a wolf-whistle when a pretty woman passes by a building site? Or something completely different?
I for one would like a definition of what you mean by harassment, just so I – and others - can comment on the issue in a more reasoned way. At the moment it's a bit broad.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
deano: Despite being the OP I'm probably not actually the best person to answer that, as I'm one of the ones who don't experience it. But my best guess is it means unwelcome shouted comments that are disparaging and/or aggressively sexual.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I don't know how to define harassment but I do know it happens. I could never be described as a young, thin, leggy blonde but last week when walking to the corner shop a couple of weeks ago along a busy road in daylight in jeans, a jumper and a fleece (ooh what sexy clothes) I was surrounded by a group of four men who repeatedly shouted at me asking how much for a shag? When I told them that even if they won the lottery they couldn't afford it they called me an ugly dyke and walked off.
Things like that are, imo, definitely harassment and are also intimidating and potentially frightening. They don't happen every day or even every week but maybe two or three times a year. Does this happen to men? I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen it.
[ 15. January 2014, 14:09: Message edited by: chive ]
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
The only man who I know who is harassed regularly--he has said it happens at least a couple times a month--is extremely obese, and in his case it's fat-shaming not sexual. On the other hand, he gets physically touched/shoved/hit etc. as part of the harassment often. And he never complained or anything. I only know because he said so after getting shoved into the concrete (and bruised up in the process) one St Patrick's day. Even then when I was horrified, he brushed such harassment off as normal, albeit this had been worse than normal harassment.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I don't know how to define harassment but I do know it happens. I could never be described as a young, thin, leggy blonde but last week when walking to the corner shop in jeans, a jumper and a fleece (ooh what sexy clothes) I was surrounded by a group of four men who repeatedly shouted at me asking how much for a shag? When I told them that even if they won the lottery they couldn't afford it they called me an ugly dyke and walked off.
Things like that are, imo, definitely harassment and are also intimidating and potentially frightening. They don't happen every day or even every week but maybe two or three times a year. Does this happen to men? I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen it.
Wow! I'm sorry for that. I've never seen that happen, and yes I agree that is indeed harrasment. It's probably also illegal.
I have no answer to the OP in the context of your post, except that it might be a location issue. Up here in Chesterfield things such as you've described might happen and they might be more common that I know, but I've never seen or heard of it and I've never heard my wife or her friends experiencing it. They get the wolf whistle's now and again but take it in good part, giving as good back.
Sorry for your experience.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I've had my butt grabbed twice in London Underground stations. Once I was with my husband, once I was alone. In neither case was I dressed in any particularly attention seeking fashion.
At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify. Perhaps "assault" is a strong word but it's certainly sexual molestation and it made me feel unsafe. My body is not public property for anyone who feels like it to touch as they please.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify.
They were wrong.
I speak as the father of a young woman. It does qualify. Whether it is assault or not is a matter for lawyers, but it would lead to a definite punch in the mouth for any of your male colleagues who tried to touch up my daughter. See if they think it doesn't qualify then.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Whether it's aggressive enough to be classed as harassment or not, inappropriate sexual attention and requests, sometimes from complete strangers, often seem to be part of the experience of being a woman. But the likelihood of this kind of thing probably depends on the nature of your community, your appearance and behaviour, etc.
[ 15. January 2014, 15:13: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I have experienced it in the city. not much anywhere else. walking down a city street, even a very public one, has from time to time meant some male saying/doing something that made me uncomfortable. no, certainly not like the Saudi example above. but comments which, under certain circumstances, might make me worry about a physical follow up (if I weren't in a public place), and certainly something that I don't see males having to deal with. I tend to shrug it off, because I am rarely in a situation where I am actually worried about a physical follow up, and I tend to brush off many things. but it does happen. And while not regularly, and not even often, but I HAVE had encounters where I actually felt threatened, despite being in a relatively public place.
I can't say it happens in my corner of suburbia, or even the (mostly office building) town where I work. but in even the business area of DC, yeah, it happens, pretty much every time. Fortunately, I don't have to go into DC very often, and even more rarely do I have to walk around the streets of DC.
Oh, and one time I actually was physically assaulted, although I was able to get away easily, and they didn't follow me. I was going to where my car was parked, and there was a group of young men sitting on and gathered around my car. I stopped when I saw them, deciding what to do (still not feeling threatened, but wary of actually approaching). I pondered going back to my office to fetch my (Large male) friend to escort me. as I was debating what to do (we're talking moments here, not minutes), the young men got up and approached and surrounded me and started to verbally harass me and physically touch me (not violently at that point). I pushed through them and ran.. and that was the end of it. They were very young men (adolescents). I was a youngish woman at the time. mid to late 20s perhaps (wow, that was a long time ago! feels like it was just a short time back).
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
'Difference' and vulnerability also seem to be magnets, particularly for groups of men.
Illustration: woman, 50s, long hair pinned up, tweed skirt jacket, genteel part of Edinburgh. But a flatness on one side of her blouse (just visible under jacket) - because she'd lost a breast to cancer. Two or three men - and shouts of 'Trannie!'
Me (30s then) crossing park, dark evening but enough street lighting to show I was crying. Group passing - calling out how ugly I looked.
That strikes me as pack behaviour - turn on the weak one (maybe what the fat guy was experiencing).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I've had my butt grabbed twice in London Underground stations. Once I was with my husband, once I was alone. In neither case was I dressed in any particularly attention seeking fashion.
At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify. Perhaps "assault" is a strong word but it's certainly sexual molestation and it made me feel unsafe. My body is not public property for anyone who feels like it to touch as they please.
Assault is not too strong a word. The legal definition of assault is "the act of creating apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact with a person". Battery is "the use of force against another, resulting in harmful, offensive or sexual contact". What you've described is a clear case of assault and battery. It would also clearly fall under the legal definition of the crime of sexual assault.
Posts: 256 | Registered: Dec 2013
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Otter
Shipmate
# 12020
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Posted
Thank you for starting this thread, Talitha.
I've wondered the same things myself, as I haven't been harassed very often in my life. I've gotten more fat comments than sexist comments, and most of those were of the adolescent variety in the actual schoolyard.
I think in my particular case, it may be because most of my friends are male, so when I was single and out with friends, on foot, it didn't look like I was unattached. Since college (and marriage), the suburb I live in is very car-centric, so there's not a lot of walking-down-the-street or public transit opportunities for harassment, and I'm often out with Mr. Otter anyway.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", YMMV, limited-time offer, IANAL, no purchase required, and the state of CA has found this substance to cause cancer in laboratory aminals
Posts: 1429 | From: Chicago, IL 'burbs | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have had abuse shouted at me regularly at uni, in the city where I live now it has happened a couple of times.
I have had people grab my breast on two different occasions. Years apart.
I don't think it is an uncommon experience.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
Does this happen to men? I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen it.
Sometimes, yes. I mean, it's not an everyday occurrence, but it does happen when I'm walking or biking, usually from people passing me in cars. I mean, part of it may be the long hair (do they think I'm a woman?), it may be a belief that roads are made for cars alone, pedestrians and cyclists should Know Their Place, it may just be that they're jerks who like revving their engines, swerving at me, and yelling obscenities about my perceived sexual proclivities and preferences.
And that's for hetero-overlord of the WASP patriarchy me. Some of the stuff I've seen other people get, well, I understand why women are afraid of any man they don't know. I get why people shy away from me as I walk down the street late at night. I mean, I know I'm harmless, and I wish there was some way to let them know that, but there isn't—especially since something like "hello" is usually followed by indecent proposals, followed by calling her an ugly slut.
By the way, am I the only one who thinks it odd to catcall someone, and, when she says no, to call her ugly and easy? Five seconds ago, you were propositioning her, calling her pretty, telling her to smile; when she showed she wasn't interested, that makes her easy? So much for it "just being a compliment."
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I have done surveys with clients with social anxiety, where they ask an opportunity sample of people about being shouted at the street, you usually find it has happened to the majority of respondents.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
By the way, am I the only one who thinks it odd to catcall someone, and, when she says no, to call her ugly and easy? Five seconds ago, you were propositioning her, calling her pretty, telling her to smile; when she showed she wasn't interested, that makes her easy? So much for it "just being a compliment."
Exactly. It's not about the target at all, it's about the callers need for attention from a person of the opposite sex.
This can be perfectly benign-- the normal, decent guys out there always pounce on threads like this with comments like" Wow, you mean I can't aim a flirty, 'hi, gorgeous!' at a cute chick as I pass her?" Of course you can. Can you keep it up if she drops her eyes and looks unreceptive? Of course you can't, and most normal, decent guys know this without being told. As long as you have a grown-up sort of idea of your need for attention as balanced against realistic expectations about who has to give you attention, all is cool. I don't think I know a woman alive who doesn't respond positively-- even glowingly-- to respectful attention. Even if they act shy about it.
It's what kind of attention the caller wants back that is the issue. Most guys, I'd wager, would be happy with a shy smile and nod. Guys who are aggressive about it, who don't leave the shy women alone, who name-call and insult when the target rebuffs them-- well, you decent guys out there will have a hard time believing this, but they are getting the reaction they want. They want to feel like they have some sort of power to make a woman look at them, react to them, and if the only way they can achieve that is by being a gigantic douche, so be it.
The guys who do it in packs-- that adds a whole different dynamic. A pack of guys shouting at a lone woman should never, never be treated lightly (unless she is on a stage, or something). There are dozens of reasons a woman should actively avoid situations where she is the lone female amongst a bunch of aggressive-acting men. (for the purposes of the following discussion, I am sticking with this scenario. The guys out there will have to say for themselves whether they sense similar dynamics when they are catcalled by women.)
Because that kind of behavior is not about attraction, or even about personal wishes for attention-- it is about dominance. As pointed out that the person who might get this kind of attention could be the fat guy on the bus as well as the pretty girl on the street. Not only is the caller trying to get a reaction, now, he is being evaluated on his ability to do so by his peers, who will be more than willing to shout at him over whatever success or lack of he might have. it is about establishing where you are at on the totem pole, and (as I hissed about on TICTH recently) there really and truly are some people who can't rest easy unless they can prove to themselves that there are people beneath themselves on the totem pole. So they make the best of these opportunities.
Girl walking alone on the street versus pack of guys? Easy way to provoke apprehension and guardedness. I (skeevy guy mode) might not be able to provoke the woman to tears, or to make her shout back at me ,but by god, I can at least make her lower her head and scurry away, and by god that means I have POWER! I am DOMINANT! That makes space on the totem pole between me and the ground.
Same with the fat guy-wow, everybody will totally agree that I am instantly higher on the totem pole than this guy, so I should really take this opportunity to point that out. See? I'm not as fat as him. I'm not as fat as him. I may be riddled with insecurity and enough self-doubt to scan the streets for people weaker than me, but by god, i'm up that totem pole from this guy!
(except that the people who are really up the totem pole don't worry about the bottom-- in fact, they barely notice the bottom.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
It's not something I have ever been particularly aware of happening to me. Now I'm wondering why.
Is it because I'm just wandering about oblivious? I'm usually walking along in my own little world of thoughts...
Have I just been lucky to have lived in nice places? Or not had to be a pedestrian much in places where this is likely to be a problem?
Am I just too unattractive to get such attention? I probably don't score highly on this and I've never really worked out the art of dressing well...
Combination of these factors and others?
And I live in a country now that definitely has a problem with harassment of women in the street. I don't walk the streets as much as some, but I do go out and about, both in areas frequented by tourists and those where I am certainly an unusual sight as a foreigner. Maybe I just don't understand what people are saying? I might be living in blissful ignorance, after all my Arabic is pretty poor!
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
Take a look at the website called Everyday Sexism. There are thousands of examples of harrasment posted there.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Responding to Lucia's post
Attractiveness has very little to do with the scenarios most people here are talking about (they would in the "normal, decent guy" scenarios I described, which is why things get confusing.) One thing that came out in a previous incarnation of this thread is that often unattractive women are targeted for shouts-- especially by the insecure pack guys I described above.
"But how can you tell it's not sincere?" Oh, it's obvious. They make sure it's obvious, How can you get a good shame reaction unless you let them know you are shaming them?
The language thing might also be an issue, and most likely, from the way you describe yourself, people probably just sense that you are not going to give them the attention they crave.
I think a lot of women train themselves to adopt exactly that attitude. actually. The trick is to do so while keeping enough awareness of your surroundings to keep yourself safe.
[ 15. January 2014, 20:53: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Interesting that this discussion about the reaction of men to being perved by other men should have come up recently.
It may illustrate the point about men: they don't like it when they can see that thy are not in charge. A woman having the gall to reject the sexual demand is a Bad Thing, and deserves to be put down or verbally assaulted. Similarly, a man treating the man as "just a piece of ass" (as the article says) is a danger to an already-stressed masculinity, and must be repelled at all costs.
In either case, the reaction is to do something to push back, since it makes the shouter aware of his insecurity.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Excellent last-but-one post, Kelly (IMHO). Not that you need any endorsement from me, but it seems to whack several nails on the head at once.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I think this happens to me sometimes - normally young lads in a group, maybe a bit drunk or high, showing off to each other, trying to intimidate me or get a reaction from me, by calling out some question or insult, or making shrieking noises as they pass me.
I don't think it's about attractiveness - I'm quite average looking. But I perhaps seem like an easy target - I'm not at all trendy looking, I'm often in a world of my own, I don't do eye contact, I'm small and don't have good posture. I suspect I look a bit weird and vulnerable.
I never used to think it was about gender, but an interesting thing happened one day that made me change my view on this. A group of lads passed me, and called out some silly questions. I ignored them. Normally when this happens, they all call names out and laugh. This time, one lad called me a dick - which surprised me, as that's not the normal type of name they call me - and immediately after he said it, the other lads hissed at him to shut up, and not cause trouble, and they slunk off. I realised to my astonishment they were a little scared of me, and then it occurred to me that they must have thought I was a bloke. The clothes I was wearing were all clothes that a bloke might wear, and my hair, although long, was straggly and I was wearing a baseball cap. I looked in the mirror when I got home and realised that yes, I could easily be mistaken for a bloke. I normally look more obviously female. That was a real eye-opener. I'd never realised before quite what a difference gender (or perception of gender) makes. I remember wishing at that point that I was a man.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
I have never met a woman who wasn't harassed at some point on the street.
My teenaged daughter gets harassed regularly, especially when she and her friends take the train into San Francisco. She was even followed in a Target by two creeps last week who kept showing up in the aisle she was in and one grabbed his crotch, smacked his lips and told her she looked delicious. She went to tell the manager and they left and she phoned me because she was afraid to walk to her car. It is the most recent of nasty encounters she's had, She likes this site.
[ 15. January 2014, 23:00: Message edited by: art dunce ]
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify.
Um, what? How is some random stranger squeezing your arse on the train anything other than sexual assault? In other (already sexually charged) contexts, perhaps someone grabbing your behind could pass for flirtation, but on a train?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify.
They were wrong.
I speak as the father of a young woman. It does qualify. Whether it is assault or not is a matter for lawyers, but it would lead to a definite punch in the mouth for any of your male colleagues who tried to touch up my daughter. See if they think it doesn't qualify then.
My daughter has smacked 2 people in the mouth for doing just this. They quickly scarper - she's tall and pretty strong and drew blood. A proportionate response to the issue I'd suggest.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In other (already sexually charged) contexts, perhaps someone grabbing your behind could pass for flirtation, but on a train?
No, not even then. Strangers grabbing arses non consensually is not on. I've had people thrown out of sex clubs for less.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"But how can you tell it's not sincere?" Oh, it's obvious. They make sure it's obvious, How can you get a good shame reaction unless you let them know you are shaming them?
Quite. "You fucking ugly dyke" is a bit of a give away. Though i was actually more anxious about the alcoholic 50 year old in my undergrad year group who variously turned up outside my bedroom door and un various uni bars, declaring undying affection and asking me - in front of a large group of people - whether I would have sex with him. Stalking is not fun.
Personally, I don't want random strangers calling out hi gorgeous at me either.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I agree, Doublethink. One's looks should not be a subject of comment to strangers walking down the streets - they are completely irrelevant.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I agree, Doublethink. One's looks should not be a subject of comment to strangers walking down the streets - they are completely irrelevant.
To paraphrase from a recent online article, the catcaller's attitude toward a target is: you are responsible for how I feel when I look at you.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I wish things could be different but they are not. I wish that raising daughters confidently into women was enough. The problem is a male one, and men have to shout and sometimes more when they see such behaviour. If men don't it won't change.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Whistled at and cat calls from construction workers. (I felt safe enough because it was bright daylight and they were at work.)
Breast grabbed by a stranger. Several. (First time, he was a customer, claimed he was just talking with his hands and accidentally touched me - twice. I moved so a large table was between us, he kept moving around the table towards me, boss saw but ignored.)
Obscene phone call at night apparently from someone at the office trying to disguise voice.
Man I barely knew banging on my door drunk at 2 AM yelling "open up, let me in." Several times, different locations.
Stranger following me from the resort restaurant to my cottage at night. (You can tell when you are being followed - you change speed so does he, you cross to the other sidewalk so does he. I circled back to the restaurant, got a man to walk with me, the stranger followed only a few steps and gave up, amazing the difference an escort makes!)
Boss asked for sex. (A couple of different ones, back when it wasn't a crime. College prof, too. Back then the dean said it's not an academic matter so it's not the university's concern; isn't a grade dependent on the girl's response an academic issue?)
Fat penis pushed against my butt crack (through clothing) on the bus, when I turned a bit to avoid he moved to resume, bus too crowded for me to go anywhere. Sigh, in Italy, as a stranger I didn't know what kind of making a fuss would land *me* in jail! Speaking of Italy, cars pulling up to block sidewalk crossings opening doors "come in."
And Mexico. Never again as a lone female. NEVER!
More, but that's enough examples - not a once in a lifetime thing!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I wish things could be different but they are not. I wish that raising daughters confidently into women was enough. The problem is a male one, and men have to shout and sometimes more when they see such behaviour. If men don't it won't change.
Amen, and God bless those who do shout.
[ETA: well, depends on what you mean by "and sometimes more"]
[ 16. January 2014, 06:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
I'm with Talitha and Lucia; I have not experienced anything worse than wolf-whistles.
And I walk a lot so it is not due to lack of opportunity. I do try to keep alert and aware of my surroundings, especially at night. One of the things I like about the location of my flat is that there are a lot of hotels around, so the area is never deserted.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
You can put me down as someone who doesn't want any attention, ever, from strangers, no matter how respectful or complimentary. Unless we're involved in some kind of business transaction, in which case I'm happy to talk about things relating to that. (Though I will always choose the vending machine over the human if it's an option.)
I've been shouted at a fair bit. I *think* it happens less now, although that may actually be just that I generally walk around with industrial ear defender headphones on (best purchase I've ever made, since I'm sensitive to noise) and I'm generally in my own world walking about. I tend not to notice people I know well unless they really make an effort to get my attention and even then I often don't recognise them out of context. So it's possible people are constantly hassling me and I'm just oblivious. I've had guys grab my arse or boobs a couple of times. I've had people shout in my face. I think maybe it's because they instinctively know that I am someone who particularly detests shouting (see aforementioned oversensitive hearing - it's physically painful to me) and being touched. Particularly being touched by strangers. It happens less now that I'm a grown woman than it did when I was a teenager, which I think is about appearing less vulnerable.
But it's definitely about dominance. Walking into a less reputable bit of town recently, the first guy I went past shouted "ALRIGHT THERE, GORGEOUS?" and the second (a few minutes later) shouted "YOU'RE UGLY!" and the weird thing is that these two things were shouted in exactly the same tone. The first was obviously supposed to be every bit as insulting as the second. Which is why the protests of "can't women take compliments?" whenever this behaviour is called out gets a distinct side-eye from me.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I lived in central London during my 20s and was groped on a number of occasions, had my breast or bum squeezed or men rub themselves against me, usually while on the tube to work. The crowdedness makes it difficult to identify the culprit and gives them the ability to remain anonymous so lone men. When a man visibly put his hand on my knee on the train I loudly complained though. I've had my breast grabbed in the street by a lone man and found that far more scary.
I was brought up on a rough estate in Luton and the intimidation there was usually gangs of young men catcalling and swearing abuse at you rather than physical.
Living at the nurses home could bring frightening experiences though, we regularly had flashers in the grounds, men harrassing us and trying to get in, even a man on the roof at night knocking on windows, and one of the girls found a man with a knife in her room. Male nurses on the ground floor had thumped intruders who had tried to climb in their windows.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
My daughter has smacked 2 people in the mouth for doing just this. They quickly scarper - she's tall and pretty strong and drew blood. A proportionate response to the issue I'd suggest.
The second time it happened (when I was alone) I swung around and punched the guy in the chest. Then began screaming bloody murder "THIS MAN IS TOUCHING ME!!" A few other people in the station started shouting at him but he ran off, probably got onto the first available train.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I wish things could be different but they are not. I wish that raising daughters confidently into women was enough. The problem is a male one, and men have to shout and sometimes more when they see such behaviour. If men don't it won't change.
I tried to raise my 3 daughters that way - that uninvited attention was just that and it was then open season to report/react.
Mind you they learned from example:they've seen me take on a guy who tried to steal my wallet. Not pretty.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Interesting timing.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The problem with women needing to be strong, i.e. with words or physically resisting, is if they are actually overpowered and assaulted, then there's the "I should have been able to resist" and other issues. -- I firmly believe that men must take responsibility for the stopping of this in the first instance. Though maybe because I am the father of, now, adult women, I am particularly sensitive about it. "Don't be that guy." is a recent campaign which I think is correctly aimed though it is not about street harassment. one of many links about it
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I could not agree more. I have seen examples the Canadian campaign, and sent links to my nephews. I hope it takes off.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
I think street harassment, or any harassment, by definition, would have to be obviously against a woman's will. For example, I don't think that a whistle or an appreciative comment is harassment. I think a crude remark made to a woman regarding her personal needs is a different story altogether.
Over the course of my life, I've had my share of both types of attention. Not so much now, that I'm 48, but I still get hit on in bars. I say proudly. Lol. But my best friends, by way of various circumstances, happen to be in their 20's and beautiful. What I see concerns me sometimes. I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity. Not that any woman should ever be disrespected.
I also think that the comments depend on how a woman looks, how she is dressed, and especially where she is walking. I think location is most important. I think it is a matter of the men needing or wanting attention and that's going to happen more in areas where men are not as secure.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That's very likely, but I don't want to spend my life making random male strangers feel more secure. I have enough to do dealing with my own people.
A big problem with people evaluating my looks on the street is that we haven't been introduced and to make personal comments to ANY stranger leaves the question open, "how much further are you going to take this?" Because it is a real taboo in our ( okay, my) culture, witness tge fact that people doing something so innocent as asking for directions still feel the need to start off with "Excuse me, but..." Taboo trespassing makes me wonder how much further you're going to go. Just a comment? Following along the street? FREAKIN' FOLLOWING ME HOME? and yes, this happened to me at age sixteen. I also had quite a number of curb-crawling masturbators as I walked home alone from school. In a wealthy suburb. It was so common we never thought to tell our parents about it. But none of that has left me comfortable with public stranger comments since then.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
That's very likely, but I don't want to spend my life making random male strangers feel more secure. I have enough to do dealing with my own people.
Well put.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Lamb chopped, was that in response to me? I don't think women should make men more secure, I'm just making an observation, noting what I think is safer behavior in response to relatively benign comments and understanding of the fact that not all comments from an unintroduced male are meant to be malicious.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
More in response to the world in general. I've met a great many entitled men who truly believe that it's my job as a woman to cater to their psych issues, and get unreasonably upset if I don't. Despite us being barely acquainted.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Fool on the hill: quote:
If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down.
That might be safer than just ignoring them where you are, but where I live it would be construed by most men as an expression of (mild) interest in continuing a flirtation.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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