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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I also think it's a false dichotomy. People go through phases, where they are mobile and not.
When I was young, I skipped around like a flea on a hot stove, but recently, when we contemplated moving to another city, we eventually groaned, and cried out, no thanks. We stay put.
But I suppose that connects with the young being more open and radical, and the old more conservative. Hence, Brexit was an old vote, not sure about Trump.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Is this the final position in the Electoral College?
Trump 306 (Including 16 for Michigan, 11 for Arizona)
Clinton 232 (Including 4 for New Hampshire)
I know there are further formalities to be undergone before the Electoral College votes formally, but I think that represents the composition the Election has arrived at.
Am I right?
The Wiki entry, which is still subject to further adjustment, can be found here.
I have in mind closing this thread in a couple of days, and redirecting all discussion to the aftermath thread. Preserving a distinction between backward analysis and forward consequences is likely to become pretty artificial as time moves on.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As long as people remain human, we will continue to form ties and obligations that require us to stay in certain places. It's not right to blame those people and favor the ones who are mobile--usually only temporarily, either because they are quite young or because they have not formed new family ties for whatever reason. For most of them, the time will come when "mobile" becomes "gotta stay here." "Mobile" is usually a temporary stage of life.
"Mobile" is part of America's mythology. The country was built by people who got on the boat and travelled half way around the world away from everything they knew. People have always moved across the country in search of a better opportunity, at a time when moving across the country was much harder than it is now.
And yet we're claiming that the Trump voters are both idolizing the self-sufficient pioneer spirit and also rejecting the call to relocate for better opportunities?
That can't be right.
The difference, I think, is that relocation these days is a much shakier prospect.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Is this the final position in the Electoral College?
Trump 306 (Including 16 for Michigan, 11 for Arizona)
Clinton 232 (Including 4 for New Hampshire)
Not one to study US politics, is this result Clinton just being beat or wholly thrashed?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Not one to study US politics, is this result Clinton just being beat or wholly thrashed?
It's a fairly narrow victory, in the sense that you're looking at slim margins in several correlated states (basically, if you shift the white uneducated vote a couple of points, Clinton wins by a similar margin). And Clinton is narrowly winning the popular vote (by 0.2% - not all votes are counted yet).
But it's a sound thrashing in the sense that she was expecting to win by several points, and that didn't happen.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Just watching BBC news, and a pundit was arguing that where Trump has surprised people is scoring heavily with white women, over 50%. Even with women without degrees, getting 45%. I will have to check these figures, but it makes the 'angry white men' idea seem a bit more complex. It would be interesting to see some of them interviewed, I guess some would be Republicans anyway, some would be business oriented, some would dislike Clinton. Still surprising.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Croesos--
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Sorry, but how is blaming mostly non-white immigrants for "stealing their jobs" not racist?
Possibly might not be racist if the focus is first on being unemployed; then on immigrants (of whatever flavor) for taking those jobs; and lastly on the particular flavor of immigrant, and (in their voice) "how different they are from us regular working (Country)ers who lost our jobs, and WE DON'T LIKE THEM BECAUSE WE CAN'T SUPPORT OURSELVES AND DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN PAY FOR RENT, GAS, AND FOOD! So there!"
If they're racist, it *might* be that they've been driven to it, and are simply trying to survive.
It's really easy to pack all sorts of things into the term "racism", and not examine them to see what and why they are, and just sum them up with "bad human! Bad! BAD! Only social shunning for you!"
Changing the situation has to involve recognizing its roots.
IMHO, FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Leorning Cniht--
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
"Mobile" is part of America's mythology. The country was built by people who got on the boat and travelled half way around the world away from everything they knew. People have always moved across the country in search of a better opportunity, at a time when moving across the country was much harder than it is now.
And yet we're claiming that the Trump voters are both idolizing the self-sufficient pioneer spirit and also rejecting the call to relocate for better opportunities?
That can't be right.
The difference, I think, is that relocation these days is a much shakier prospect.
But most of those pioneers wanted a *home*, whether built of sod, logs, or bricks. And the modern American dream includes owning your own home.
Plus some people (by nature, culture, and/or experience) are built to stay in one place, and others to venture away.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
As to the racism accusation, here is the ever-reliable John Scalzi on the subject. The money quote:
"But the fact remains that in voting for Trump, they voted for racism: It was right there in the package deal, front and center, and hard to miss. They voted for it anyway. And you may argue that voting for racism as part of a larger package deal does not a racist make, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, as far as what people do to others in their personal and day to day lives. But voting for racism will make personal, day-to-day life harder for the targets of that racism. Two days after the election, we’re already seeing that."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just watching BBC news, and a pundit was arguing that where Trump has surprised people is scoring heavily with white women, over 50%. Even with women without degrees, getting 45%. I will have to check these figures, but it makes the 'angry white men' idea seem a bit more complex.
I became sceptical that that the hot-mic revelation was going to turn women away from trump in droves. We seemed to have forgotten the Fifty shades factor.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, it's still misogyny. Lateral misogyny. Best way for a woman to gain favor with men in power is to attack the same woman they are attacking, or to tear down a woman who is achieving something they are not.
This is dedicated to every woman I have ever heard say," Oh, I HATE working for a female boss!"
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For some reason, I suspect I'll be repeating this analysis a few more times before this all blows over.
That's not really an analysis, more of a "just so" narrative bare of any supporting evidence and leaning on a bunch of stereotypes. For example, the claim that "the majority of ethnic minority citizens tend to live in big cities" is true as far as it goes, but the majority of white Americans tend to live in cities, too. The switch-over between majority rural and majority urban happened sometime between the 1910 and 1920 censuses. Plus I have to question an "analysis" that's premised on the idea that there are very few Hispanic agricultural laborers in the U.S.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I guess it's just easier to blame it all on racist sexist scumbags or people who are too stupid or feckless to "get on their bike" and abandon their entire life and community in search of work than it is to accept that there may be a lot of people who are being failed by your politics to the extent that they find someone like Trump preferable to another four years of the same thing.
First off, it's the counties where employment has improved the most since 2010 where Trump is drawing a lot of his strength, so I'm not buying a bare assertion of this "economic anxiety" theory.
But mostly I'm irked by what I'd call "Occam's paisley": the principle that any explanation, no matter how complicated or baroque, is preferable to any examination of racism. Donald Trump ran a campaign that openly and explicitly appealed to white nationalism and Republicans supported him much more enthusiastically in the primaries than any of his opponents who were much less explicit. He then ran a general election campaign that likewise appealed to white nationalism in a much more explicit way than any of his Republican predecessors and white American turned out for him in a way that they didn't for Mitt Romney or John McCain. Given that the economy was in worse shape in 2012 than it is in 2016 we would expect the opposite if your "analysis" were correct.
And yet it's considered bad form to ask if Donald Trump's explicit appeals to white nationalism, which are what truly set him apart from previous (recent) Republican presidential candidates, are actually part of his appeal, or even the main attraction?
It's not about race, because nothing in America is ever about race. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Is this the final position in the Electoral College?
Trump 306 (Including 16 for Michigan, 11 for Arizona)
Clinton 232 (Including 4 for New Hampshire)
Not one to study US politics, is this result Clinton just being beat or wholly thrashed?
If you made a list of the last ten elections and ranked them by electoral vote margin, 2016 would be at #8 on the list. The only two closer elections (in terms of electoral vote margin) were George W. Bush's two wins.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just watching BBC news, and a pundit was arguing that where Trump has surprised people is scoring heavily with white women, over 50%. Even with women without degrees, getting 45%.
The numbers I saw had Trump 20 points worse with white women than equivalent men, and 30 points better with uneducated whites than educated whites. The sex gap was the same for educated and uneducated whites.
Which means amongst other things that a whole load of men are fine with the pussy-grabbing that turns off their wives and sisters. Or something like that.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Croesos--
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Sorry, but how is blaming mostly non-white immigrants for "stealing their jobs" not racist?
Possibly might not be racist if the focus is first on being unemployed; then on immigrants (of whatever flavor) for taking those jobs; and lastly on the particular flavor of immigrant, and (in their voice) "how different they are from us regular working (Country)ers who lost our jobs, and WE DON'T LIKE THEM BECAUSE WE CAN'T SUPPORT OURSELVES AND DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN PAY FOR RENT, GAS, AND FOOD! So there!"
If they're racist, it *might* be that they've been driven to it, and are simply trying to survive.
It's really easy to pack all sorts of things into the term "racism", and not examine them to see what and why they are, and just sum them up with "bad human! Bad! BAD! Only social shunning for you!"
Changing the situation has to involve recognizing its roots.
IMHO, FWIW, YMMV.
Agree with the analysis but not the conclusion.
The biggest opponents of abolition and civil rights were poor white laborers-- not wealthy white slaveowners/landowners. They saw blacks as competition for low-wage jobs, despite the fact that free labor has a rather depressing effect on wages. There are all sorts of reasons, many quite understandable, why people hang onto irrational beliefs that at least help them feel they're not as bad as those people over there.
But the fact that their fears, struggles or beliefs are understandable, even natural, does not magically make them non-racist. They bought into racist propaganda. It is important that we understand why. But it's also important that we not white wash (term intentional) it by calling it something other than what it was.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
If it's any consolation, opinion polls here showed that about 77% of Australians supported Ms Clinton and 12% Mr Trump.
Can't help but wonder how the vote would have gone has the US a history of compulsory voting.
[ 11. November 2016, 05:40: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But the fact that their fears, struggles or beliefs are understandable, even natural, does not magically make them non-racist. They bought into racist propaganda. It is important that we understand why. But it's also important that we not white wash (term intentional) it by calling it something other than what it was.
Interesting piece here
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just watching BBC news, and a pundit was arguing that where Trump has surprised people is scoring heavily with white women, over 50%. Even with women without degrees, getting 45%.
The numbers I saw had Trump 20 points worse with white women than equivalent men, and 30 points better with uneducated whites than educated whites. The sex gap was the same for educated and uneducated whites.
Which means amongst other things that a whole load of men are fine with the pussy-grabbing that turns off their wives and sisters. Or something like that.
Although the Wiki article on the Presidential Election 2016 is still a work in progress, it does contain a decent summary of voter demographics. You have to scroll down a fairly long way to find it. Amongst other things it shows this.
Gender Difference. 12% more men voted for Trump than Clinton, 12% more women voted for Clinton than Trump.
Marital Status. 21% more married men voted for Trump than Clinton, only 2% more married women voted for Clinton than Trump.
Race/Ethnicity. 21% more white people voted for Trump than for Clinton - by not-coincidence the same differential as for married men. All other races voted strongly for Clinton.
The religious distinctions are also worth looking at. The majority of Christians voted for Trump with varying degrees of strength, people of other faiths and no faiths voted strongly for Clinton. Over 80% of White evangelicals voted for Trump. For everyone else, 59% voted for Clinton.
It was a WASP victory and the demographics suggest strongly that both racial and misogynistic tendencies are to be found in that group.
It was also a victory for the older against the younger. The majority of people under 40 were for Clinton, but the over-40s majority were for Trump.
I think the result will be seen as a blip. The demographic trends are moving against WASPishness. It remains to be seen just how much damage and further divisiveness this blip may cause in an already politically and socially polarised society.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But the fact that their fears, struggles or beliefs are understandable, even natural, does not magically make them non-racist. They bought into racist propaganda. It is important that we understand why. But it's also important that we not white wash (term intentional) it by calling it something other than what it was.
Interesting piece here
This brought up a good old-fashioned 404 page.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It works if you take the hyphen off the end. Try this one.
Thanks!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Donald Trump ran a campaign that openly and explicitly appealed to white nationalism and Republicans supported him much more enthusiastically in the primaries than any of his opponents who were much less explicit. He then ran a general election campaign that likewise appealed to white nationalism in a much more explicit way than any of his Republican predecessors and white American turned out for him in a way that they didn't for Mitt Romney or John McCain.
If it's all due to racism as you suggest, then how do you explain the fact that most of the swing voters in states that went from blue to red voted for Obama last time?
But more importantly, if it's all due to racism then how exactly do you plan to turn those votes back around to blue? If I'm right then improving economic conditions in small towns is all it will take, but if you're right then what are the options?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That's quite a segue from 'racism was a factor' to 'racism was the only factor' in Trump's win. I don't think anyone is really saying that, are they?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
TouchRump also ran a campaign based on sexism, misogyny and mockery. The people who voted for him excused and ignored this or agree with his behaviour, comments and conduct. We can hope he turns out to be a president very different from the kind of candidate he was. But should any woman agree to meet with him alone? Don't think so.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's quite a segue from 'racism was a factor' to 'racism was the only factor' in Trump's win. I don't think anyone is really saying that, are they?
If the only thing people want to talk about when analysing the result is racism, it's reasonable to assume that it's what they think is the only important factor.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Donald Trump ran a campaign that openly and explicitly appealed to white nationalism and Republicans supported him much more enthusiastically in the primaries than any of his opponents who were much less explicit. He then ran a general election campaign that likewise appealed to white nationalism in a much more explicit way than any of his Republican predecessors and white American turned out for him in a way that they didn't for Mitt Romney or John McCain.
If it's all due to racism as you suggest, then how do you explain the fact that most of the swing voters in states that went from blue to red voted for Obama last time?
So your question is how could a campaign that explicitly embraced white nationalism work when the previous two Republican campaigns that didn't somehow failed? I think to ask that question is to answer it.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But more importantly, if it's all due to racism then how exactly do you plan to turn those votes back around to blue? If I'm right then improving economic conditions in small towns is all it will take, but if you're right then what are the options?
Then it seems pretty obvious that you're wrong. Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008. If improving economic conditions for white Americans is what it takes to get their votes, we wouldn't expect to see the results we did.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's quite a segue from 'racism was a factor' to 'racism was the only factor' in Trump's win. I don't think anyone is really saying that, are they?
If the only thing people want to talk about when analysing the result is racism, it's reasonable to assume that it's what they think is the only important factor.
I'm actually seeing the opposite here; multiple pre-emptive attempts to shut down any discussion of the role that Trump's front-and-center appeal to white nationalism, something that was notably different than his Republican predecessors, played in letting him narrowly succeed where they had failed.
If you factor in that the American right has been working hard to stoke racial fears and resentment for the past three decades, first through talk radio and now on the internet, ignoring what is an obvious and deliberate tactic and hoping it goes away seems like an inadequate approach.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I can't find the link, but the KKK is having a victory march in North Carolina this weekend. And there is this nasty little group.
It is clear that a whole lot of deplorables are taking Trump's election as an affirmation of their notions. It is not an illusion, not a 'oh, he's just saying that'. What is in the Tiny Fingered One's soul is known only to God, but people believe what he has said.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
MM/Croesos exchange:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But more importantly, if it's all due to racism then how exactly do you plan to turn those votes back around to blue? If I'm right then improving economic conditions in small towns is all it will take, but if you're right then what are the options?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then it seems pretty obvious that you're wrong. Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008. If improving economic conditions for white Americans is what it takes to get their votes, we wouldn't expect to see the results we did.
I grew up in a time and place where racism, particularly but not exclusively against East Indians, could fairly be described as rampant. And, thinking back on it, it didn't seem to really have much connection to poverty. This was an oil-boom region, and I recall hearing just as much racist talk before the early 80s crash as after.
If anything, eacist talk became less acceptable as the decade, with its lower prices, wore on, probably just do to changing social mores.
[ 11. November 2016, 18:12: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So your question is how could a campaign that explicitly embraced white nationalism work when the previous two Republican campaigns that didn't somehow failed? I think to ask that question is to answer it.
No, my question is why you think people who want to vote for a white nationalist candidate would vote for a black man when one isn't standing.
quote:
Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008.
That doesn't chime with the various articles I've read by people who have actually been to some of those towns. Can you provide evidence?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Economic conditions, even in small towns, were better in November 2016 than they were in November 2012 and much better than they were in November 2008.
That doesn't chime with the various articles I've read by people who have actually been to some of those towns. Can you provide evidence?
You mean something more than "I think I read an article somewhere with some anecdotal account in it that backs up my opinion"? Here ya go. The data for non-metro median family income is at the bottom of each year's data set. A quick calc shows that everywhere the non-metro median income increased from 2008 to 2012, and in most places either increased further or held steady between 2012 and 2016.
So turnabout being fair play, where's your data?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Oh, and there doesn't seem to be any data for non-metropolitan Delaware for 2016. I'm guessing that sometime between 2012 and 2016 Delaware urbanized enough that there weren't any statistically significant non-metropolitan areas left, though that's just conjecture on my part.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:If it's all due to racism as you suggest, then how do you explain the fact that most of the swing voters in states that went from blue to red voted for Obama last time?
So your question is how could a campaign that explicitly embraced white nationalism work when the previous two Republican campaigns that didn't somehow failed? I think to ask that question is to answer it.
I think that white nationalism clearly got Trump through the Republican primaries. And clearly not enough white voters objected to it. But from over here the issue that was front and centre of the post-primary campaign was that Trump was running on a platform of not being a woman.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The connection between racism and misogyny is insecurity. Fear. I think that's why both racism and misogyny were in play in this election. The real source of that insecurity? Now that's a subject for politicians of all flavours to consider.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
My pc has been ill for the past few days, so this is my first chance to say, from the bottom of my heart, may God bless America ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) .
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks, Robert. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And may God bless your PC, too. I'm well familiar with ongoing PC problems.
[ 13. November 2016, 06:10: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
My reading of the news is that Michigan has been called formally for Trump and New Hampshire for Clinton, confirming the Electoral College composition as 306-232 in favour of Donald Trump. So I'm putting this thread on notice of closure tomorrow evening GMT. Feel free to lodge last thoughts.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
To my mind, where Hillary kept going wrong was in stressing that she was standing "as a woman", when she should have said she was standing as a Democrat. After all, the election was not to get the best woman into the White House but the best person.
Where the Democratic party went wrong was in allowing a process to take place of virtual coronation of HRC when there should have been a proper selection process. Quite apart from anything else (and notwithstanding R Reagan) at 69 and 70 both candidates were too old to be standing for such a strenuous office.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Crikey I don't think that's the case at all. Sanders gave Clinton a much fiercer race for the nomination than I expected. I don't think Sanders would have won the White House, though, or come close - he could have been painted as a Commie.
Did the Democrats have anyone better though? Not that I'm aware...
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that white nationalism clearly got Trump through the Republican primaries. And clearly not enough white voters objected to it. But from over here the issue that was front and centre of the post-primary campaign was that Trump was running on a platform of not being a woman.
I agree with this, but would be more specific. I think first and foremost he was running on a platform of not being Hillary Clinton. Not saying that there aren't lots of people who would never vote for any woman, just that this latest group included people who might have considered another woman. I really like her, but I was amazed when the Democratic party decided to run a woman who would have topped many lists of Most Hated Woman in America.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
My last thought:
- Adolf Hitler 24%, wins Electoral College
- Lady Macbeth 25%
- Don't care either way 51%
Kiss We the People goodbye ...
[ 13. November 2016, 19:19: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think that white nationalism clearly got Trump through the Republican primaries. And clearly not enough white voters objected to it. But from over here the issue that was front and centre of the post-primary campaign was that Trump was running on a platform of not being a woman.
I agree with this, but would be more specific. I think first and foremost he was running on a platform of not being Hillary Clinton. Not saying that there aren't lots of people who would never vote for any woman, just that this latest group included people who might have considered another woman. I really like her, but I was amazed when the Democratic party decided to run a woman who would have topped many lists of Most Hated Woman in America.
Indeed. Presumably many of those who deserted the Democrats this time around were the same people who had voted for Barack Obama twice. It's possible, of course, that there is a significant body of voters happy with, and prepared to vote for, a black man in the White House but who would recoil at the thought of a woman there. Seems improbable to me, though.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Did the Democrats have anyone better though?
Joe Biden.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Indeed. Presumably many of those who deserted the Democrats this time around were the same people who had voted for Barack Obama twice. It's possible, of course, that there is a significant body of voters happy with, and prepared to vote for, a black man in the White House but who would recoil at the thought of a woman there. Seems improbable to me, though.
My facebook feed which contains a lot of relatively open minded evangelical American friends seems to be pretty much 50/50 split between those who didn't want Hillary in office so voted Trump even though they dislike him intensely, and those for whom the reverse is true. By and large they all voted Obama the first time around, and probably about three-quarters of them voted Obama the second time around. So amongst my friends, there's a significant shift from at least marginal Obama support (it wasn't like either of his opponents were charismatic men who captured the imagination of younger voters) to those who never in a million years want Hillary in the White House. Some of those people voted Trump, a few voted third party. But my anecdotal evidence is to suggest that Hillary utterly failed to capture the imagination in the way Obama did. As one friend put it: "As a feminist, I have longed to see the day when we put a woman in the White House. Why did the first option for that have to be someone I really don't want to vote for?"
Posts: 238 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
Just had a quick glance back at the beginning of the thread (Nov 2014.)
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The USA will get a conservative Republican, and you and the rest of the world had better hope he's not one of the batshit crazy ones.
Hmmm. Well, that went well, then!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Did I really say that? Yes I did
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Mind you, I don't think Trump is either a conservative Republican or batshit crazy. I don't think I'd ever accuse him of sincerity. Most of the batshit crazies were sincere. Nor would I call him a conservative Republican. He simply became whatever he needed to be to win. He may have convictions but I've got no very clear idea what they are. Other than a vastly exaggerated view of his own capabilities.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Did I really say that? Yes I did
Mind you, I don't think Trump is either a conservative Republican or batshit crazy. I don't think I'd ever accuse him of sincerity. Most of the batshit crazies were sincere. Nor would I call him a conservative Republican. He simply became whatever he needed to be to win. He may have convictions but I've got no very clear idea what they are. Other than a vastly exaggerated view of his own capabilities.
I'd say there's a very good case to be made that he's a neo-nazi.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Did the Democrats have anyone better though?
Joe Biden.
But, sadly, Joe said no. As did Elizabeth Warren.
Bernie said yes and the DNC didn't exactly go out of their way to roll out the welcome mat.
If they could have talked Warren into running a Sanders/Warren ticket might have been a winner.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
He simply became whatever he needed to be to win. He may have convictions but I've got no very clear idea what they are. Other than a vastly exaggerated view of his own capabilities.
I have no idea what he is, or thinks he is, or was, or wishes he was or wants to be. Just about the only thing I'd put money on is that he is absolutely, definitely bat shit crazy.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
mousethief
Nazi is short for national socialist. Into saving 'us' from 'our enemies'. Don't really think Trump cares very much about any 'us' however much he might fake it that he does.
I guess he and Hitler might have megalomania in common. But, in a batshit crazy kind of way, I think Hitler was sincere.
Teekee Misha
I guess the kind of Type A leader personality he displays might shade into psychopath. At least I wouldn't be surprised. But that's more deviously crafty crazy, rather than your genuine batshit type. Mostly they are sincere, even if the sincerity is potty.
(ETA. Good Lord, I've just hit the 20,000 post mark. I need to get out more ...)
[ 14. November 2016, 00:54: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
.... and as the sun slowly sinks in the Western Sky (it sank over here several hours ago) we say farewell to this long discussion thread. And look forward two or three years to the rising of a new dawn, a new hope ....
Meanwhile all your thoughts can continue on the aftermath thread as we all come to terms with a Trump Presidency.
Many thanks to all participants (yes all) but an especial word of thanks to Croesos for his very helpful periodic updates and summaries.
Thread closed
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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